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They now have the 'courage' to spew their hate out of the shadows. I think that Donald will flame out as fast as he arrived, but his legacy of hate and bigotry will be harder to remove.
I already knew how he did it, I paid attention to what he has said......surround yourself by stupid people and it makes yourself shine, that is pretty much what he said a long time ago. It is why he knew that if he killed somebody in broad daylight his supporters would still follow him, why he loves the poorly educated. When he isn't ranting and tweeting BS, he is probably mocking his followers and talking about how perfectly stupid there are.
He came up with a theme on hating others and sold it to a bunch of non-critical thinkers who don't question very much around them. Feed them some catch phrases they can memorize that paints them as victims so they have a scapegoat for the things that didn't go well in their lives, tell them lies about how great things used to be.....give them some meaningless compliments, make them think you are interested in them....and they will follow you all the way through pussygate, loonytunes, and anti-American rants and lands one in a sea of hatred.
When I have asked Trump supporters here to talk about why they support him, most have said because Trump is going to do a lot of things that he has never even mentioned ever so they have no valid reason for believing he is reading their minds. They also give a list of things like Trump's wall, all things he can't do as president, let alone do on day one. When challenged by critical thinking they leave and don't respond.....trolls are paid to think, form opinions, or be honest.
This is exactly what conservative talk does. It is a brain washing technique used to keep the uninformed, less educated, no critical thinking crowds from understanding or learning the truth. This is how cults work. Pounding into the heads of the misinformed, ones who are angry, and already have hate in their souls, ones who consider them victims of the minorities who have taken their jobs. It is really frightening that this can be allowed. I understand we have freedom of speech, but at what point do we decide to let this go on. People wonder why it has gotten so bad. well they need to take one day and put on the radio and listen to this stuff, and then remind themselves that this is what Trump supporters listen to on a daily basis,24 hours, seven days a week. This is cult stuff.And if one researches they will find that when conservative talk took over the airwaves, they first researched how to draw people in. And they looked into cult practices to see how they did it. And those are the same tactics that are used by every single one of the conservative right wing talk shows.
the Supreme Court has put some limitations on free speech, everything other than that is free speech, protected. We can have a debate about possible changes or we can take care of it ourselves. It means sacrifice on our part, action, and determination. If it is of value to us we will do the work if not, we deserve the conservatives.
We can go back to not allowing foreigners to own our media or news sources.
We can speak up when we hear hate-filled speech.
We can get tot he polls in each election and get involved in local and state elections also and keep these hate-filled people out of power.
We can help find candidates that meet a set of standards that we can agree on and then work for that candidate.
There has to be things we can do.
We have to show up to vote or these waterheads will keep voting in these hateful tea party theocrats. I grew up in Oklahoma, and I know whats truly in these peoples hearts, and its scary. We just have to stay politically active, like we should have been all along to keep people like that out of power. We could have been much further down the road if we would have come out and given the President a house to work with to get things done. I personally think this is the best approach.
I knew people in Blackwell, I get what you are talking about
'Red meat' journalism never changes hearts and minds, it reinforces them. As we demonize those with whom we disagree, we deepen the chasm that separates us from them. We reinforce the idea of "us" and "them."
The late Israeli Prime Minister, Yitzhak Rabin understood this better than most. He lost his life because he believed it. "We make peace with our enemies, not our friends," and with that he took the hand of Yassar Arafat, sworn enemy of nearly all Israelis, nearly all Jews, and said he wanted peace in a war-torn region of the world. Shortly thereafter he was assassinated by an Israeli ultra-nationalist. An angry, delusional young man. And peace died along with Rabin that day. The chasm grew, the demonization grew, the de-humanization grew, and peace receded ever further out of reach.
We would all be well-served by heeding this cautionary tale. We cannot kill our way to peace. Angry as we can become with those with whom we disagree, we must reconcile ourselves to the truism that, even if one desired it, even that opposition which we find most vile, most offensive, most hateful, cannot be eradicated except by persuasion over time.
To be productive in this, people must be willing to step outside their zone of comfort, outside the echo-chamber rallyism of partisanship.
There are those who will say, "I can have no compassion, no understanding for supporters of this candidate or that candidate. I can have no tolerance for this rigid, strident belief or that one."
It's not necessary. But what is necessary is to try and honestly understand how "they" got there. It accomplishes nothing (save to reinforce already strong prejudices already firmly held by like-minded individuals) to make declarative platitudes.
How do we advance toward unity, toward peace when we say things like "Well, of course he supports [insert candidate's name here], he's a [insert generalization here]!"? Or "Well, of course she supports [insert creed here], she's a [insert creed here]!"
What does that do other than repeat what has already been done a thousand, a million times over? Rallyism is pointless. No, it's worse than pointless. It engenders rigidity, it makes one hidebound.
The courageous work, the necessary work, the work that will matter to our progeny, to our grandchildren, is that work which will have us realize our similarities above our differences. It is the work, the HARD work, that will nurture unity rather than division.
In the immediate afterglow of the U.S. Civil War, there were those in the North who demanded punitive measures against the South, demanded that the South be made to suffer. They were angry. They had battled (and won) against forces they considered purely evil.
But Abraham Lincoln resisted, famously saying (alas, I must paraphrase), "But for the grace of God you would have done the same had you been in their position." Lincoln was not so quick to condemn as others, because he saw our similarities over our differences. He saw that the South was wrong, but he did not believe they were evil. The Civil War was fought to remedy this wrong. What a terrible, terrible price to pay. But Lincoln knew, Yitzhak Rabin new, hopefully we will know, that to right a wrong cannot be realized when the wrong is characterized as evil, when those who have committed the wrong are demonized, dehumanized. When that is done one only sows the seeds of hatred, resentment, and usually lays the groundwork for future conflict, sometimes bloody and violent.
May we, as a nation, be wise enough, be patient enough, be good enough to understand what two great leaders, Lincoln and Rabin, understood -- But for the grace of God we would do the same thing were we in their position. We make peace with our enemies, not our friends.
when I first came here, I believed all of that too. But since then I have seen the brain scans and have watched some of the series on the new findings about the brain. You can't, no matter how kind, or how hard one might want to.....make a hammer do the job of a screwdriver. The only hope is neuroplasticity and conservatives fight against new ideas and new experiences.
I am an atheist and don't see any evidence there is a god to have grace. If we are going to make changes it will have to be be getting off our duffs and voting in every election. We could make it mandatory that kids stay in school until they graduate from school and make it mandatory for every student to take serious critical thinking throughout their school years, that would help. But conservatives are going to hate, humans are wired the way they are. It is why I limit my hatred to a very few people or things. It just isn't in my nature and it costs me too much energy to force myself to remember to hate.
I wish you all the best and hope you can get some people to see things differently. Check out the brain scans and Google the differences in personalities between the two sides.
I, too, am an atheist. I was simply paraphrasing Lincoln. I seem to recall the actual quote did include the phrase "grace of God," so I included it.
Interestingly enough, most people I know would probably consider me more conservative than liberal, though I dislike both those terms. I like to consider myself rational with a desire to pursue enlightened self-interest. :)
My experience with those with whom I find I have 'First Principle' sorts of differences is that if I can set aside my judgment of them for a moment, actually listen to what they are say, they will begin to speak WITH me rather than AT me, and almost miraculously, I begin to HEAR concerns and fears and hopes and aspirations, that (though I may not share in them) I can UNDERSTAND the concern, the fear, the hope, the aspiration.
By way of example... When someone speaks to me about "Christ's love" or some other manner of spirituality (I'm a Steven Pinker man, myself; wonderful writer!), if I can discern the desire, the concern, the aspiration, the hope, beneath the vehicle by which they see those things delivered, I almost always discover a kindred spirit.
The poet Kent Nerburn put it best, I think...
"Remember to be gentle with yourself and others. We are all children of chance, and none can say why some fields will blossom and others lay brown beneath the August sun. Care for those around you. Look past your differences. Their dreams are no less than yours, their choices in life no more easily made..."
What a wonderful sentiment. Truly wise. We would all do well to follow his advise, and that can start now by holstering our hostility toward those with whom we disagree.
How can we possibly reconcile with those with whom we disagree if we refuse to acknowledge their basic humanity, disagree with them though we may on the issues. To hear what Liberals think of Trump supporters, one can only conclude that they think them barely human. To hear what Conservatives think of Clinton supporters, one can only conclude that they think them barely human.
This election will reveal, yet again, that the populace is roughly evenly split. Are we prepared to deepen the division by heaping further scorn on each other after this election? To what end? To what good end?
Again, I am reminded of Lincoln in 1858 -- "A house divided against itself cannot stand..."
The question we must ask ourselves today is whether or not we will become a house divided. It's not enough to say that the other fellow is an SOB and must come around. He is as insistent of the same thing from his end. It will require the good will of adults from both sides of the political spectrum to see through the other fellow's eyes, the walk in his shoes. This is the only way we will ever find the common ground upon which we can all stand.
well, I am sticking with science, brain scans, and I am never going to stop hating bush.....no matter what Lincoln or anybody else says. Don't mess with my family, don't get my grandson shot, don't kill thousands, don't leave millions displaced and homeless. I choose to hate bush and CO. I have no remorse over that.
I didn't divide the people, and I don't keep them divided, I am sorry but biology does that.
So your hatred is hardwired? Or it's because of what Bush did?
On the one hand, you can't help it ("... I am sticking with science, brain scans..."). On the other hand you seem to be saying your hatred is conditional ("... I choose to hate Bush...").
Or are you saying that Conservatives' hatred is hardwired, but YOUR hatred of them is triggered by THEIR hatred.
That would seem a contradiction. Unless, of course, you're suggesting that some people's behavior is hardwired (Conservatives), but other people's behavior isn't (yours).
Reading for comprehension is your friend.
I said I have to work to hate....because it is not in my nature. I get to choose to remember to hate, but yes, hate can be wired in the brain. If you are really interested you should look for the PBS series on the brain, available online.
And I never even came close to saying my hatred was triggered by their hate......mine was triggered when bush killed our troops and got my grandson shot. And Iraq was triggered by conservative ignorance and their inability to ask hard questions of their side and to pay attention to facts that can be verified.
You need to research the brain and then you can understand it better. It really sounds like you aren't interested.
I actually have an intense interest in the brain and how it works. You might find Steven Pinker's works interesting. Specifically, "The Blank Slate" and "How the Mind Works." Fascinating books about the brain and its beautiful, mysterious, and fascinating complexity.
if they are recently written and based on science and biology, I might give them a glance. But I don't want to read something outdated that I would have to unlearn if science disproves it.
Steven Pinker is a rather young man. Still writing. You might google him and read a brief bio, see if his work is something you might find interesting. His curricula vitae is impressive.
I think I would be interested in seeing what he has learned about language....thanks
He has written about language as well, I believe. Noam Chomsky is also an excellent author in his writings on language. He is, academically, a linguist, though he is far better known in the mainstream of readers for his political writings, where he is reviled by the Right, often celebrated by the Left, but not always. Over the years, I have come to see the man (politically) as a maverick enamored by neither the Left nor the Right in his political writings. In all honesty, I generally tend to disagree with him, but I've never found his writing anything other than provocative and stimulating; if one is willing to read him (I've also heard him speak in person), he will cause you to think, and that is always a good thing.
my English comp teacher said I was intellectually curious and that I am thinking all of the time. I am always looking for new things. I enjoy the process of learning things.
Good luck going forward. May you always learn new things, new ways of seeing things, new ways of thinking.
I don't think I have an option in that, just have to do it, rather I want to or not. But thanks
How the mind works is about 3 years old. It is excellent.
some of the new findings are questioning rather humans even have free will. But you would have to watch the series to hear why they are questioning that.
Yes ... but he US Arms Manufacturers made a lot of money from the Iraq & Afghan Wars ... which are now into their 20th year of continual warfare. American Wars are good for Business ... just like the Vietnam War. Business is business. ... baby! Too bad your grandson fell to makes Us Manufacturers richer ... but that's US Life. Few of the white Elite join the US Military & almost no Jews.
My DNA says I am Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jew so that would pass to my daughters too and to their children.
(Jesus is the Son of God.)
I believe Lincoln was reminded by what he read in the bible:Mark 3:20-30
Jesus Accused by His Family and by Teachers of the Law
20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family[b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”
23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”https://www.biblegateway.co...
Seems a reasonable assumption.
Sounds like an everyday occurrence in the field of UK social services, Jesus would be sectioned for his own protection and his family and friends would be investigated for possible emotional and financial abuse.
Yes, but our House has been divided at least since 2010 when the T.P. made its mark and philosophies known. They refused to engage in bipartisan legislation that would benefit all. I've been crying "foul" since the Ronnie RayGun administration.
You've got to be hoarse by now.
Yes, I truly am. Tehee.
I am a long out of closet atheist and agree with your comment.
me too, a long outed.....smiles
Check out 2 stories that give hope: Megan Phelps Roper (the New Yorker did a piece on her conversion) and Derek Black (Washington Post did a story on his repudiation of his white supremacist roots).
Well said, we can only hope that critical thinking prevails in a climate setup 17 years ago by the Bush Cartel when they brought the fanatic evangelists to politics. That is where this started, I don't see Trump doing anything differently. The Bush Cartel was successful, they created a Plutocracy, disguised by Theocracy, we haven't lived in a Democracy since they buried We the People under the UNPatriotic Act. Remember, you aren't a patriot if you don't agree to Invade Iraq. Edward Snowden is a Whistle Blower, and Freedom Fries, well let me tell you a story about a country called Vietnam. Many of these Trumpeteers are blaming the Bush Cartel's physical and financial crimes against humanity on Obama and Clinton. What I have come to understand about these folks is that there memories go back a maximum of 9 months and their vision is maximum 9 months in the future. Rightly so, it's the length of a pregnancy in either direction. They are all about getting babies born and then blaming them (the mother's now a whore) when they need to be fed, housed, clothed and educated. In understanding them, I've learned not to engage them any anything that isn't within that 18 month time frame and interestingly enough, you can communicate. However, the amount of anger and hatred they've been fostering is decades old and they are blinded by that fear. Yes, if men were only voting then Trump might be elected, but this whole crowd, men and women alike, are most intimidated by a smart women. This is what they cannot forgive, she will always be the smartest person in the room when this crowd gathers, she's light years smarter than Trump so they will caste their vote from fear, not intelligence. All of these women who have come out about Trump, couldn't have before due to his influence and money. Good to see they are finally getting the support they deserve and people like Trump and his followers prevent due to their fear of women (control em or kill em). Trump is cost of the crimes that the Republican Party has been committing since SCOTUS illegally appointed the worst administration never elected. Boya!
I am reminded of the words of the poet Kent Nerburn...
I love that quote - but reading that & what you are trying to say above too, works wonderfully when we are all roughly in the same mode of being decent people - I do not think the current Extreme Right Wing of the Republican party has ever been in the mood to 'work together' throughout the whole Obama Presidency, in fact even declaring they would deliberately make him fail at everything - disgusting- and Trump has just taken the whole thing to it's most extreme logical crazy end. I think Clinton, assuming she wins, will try to work with them, and just maybe, the country has learnt a good lesson from all of this, but the problem is those crazies are still out there, regurgitating their crazed hatred & there is almost nothing you can say to them to create a let-us-reason-together scenario. If they are defeated & ignored for long enough they will mostly fade back into the woodwork, and civilization can be reestablished, here's hoping - but it is going to be VERY difficult to restore any normality after this lurch into fascism.I found myself quite emotional at the realization that we are about to lose the Obamas in the White House - do we understand just what we have witnessed this past 8 years of TOTAL class - almost none of us could have put up with the hatred the way they have - what an example to the world - and the world has understood very well what was going on !
Recall the words of Yitzhak Rabin... "We make peace with our enemies, not our friends."
This is difficult. Exceedingly difficult. But it is the only way to achieve peace.
I fear your desire that those with whom you do strongly disagree will "mostly fade back into the woodwork" is wishful thinking.
Again, the cautionary tale of Rabin and the State Of Israel is instructive. Certainly they held the same hopes that the Palestinians, Hamas, Hezbollah, other splinter groups bent on their destruction, would "mostly fade back into the woodwork."
I think it's pretty clear that Trump will lose. He'll return to being the showman he was before; his life will change little. But his defeat won't change the animus his supporters feel for Liberals and Democrats of all persuasions. If anything it will likely increase it.
And we're not talking about some lunatic fringe. There are tens of millions, perhaps over a hundred million people who find Hillary Clinton, Democrats, Liberals highly objectionable.
Dismiss them as crazies or what have you at your own peril. It is unwise to do so.
And be mindful, that as much as supporters of this current President and Hillary Clinton are angered, saddened, disgusted, etc. by the venom, rancor, heated vitriol from those who loathe the President and Ms. Clinton, the Left proved itself no more tolerant, no more civil in their rhetoric of President Bush, explain it how one will. Civility was not a hallmark of their opposition to President Bush.
Look, the point is this -- when we abandon civility we destroy our ability to communicate effectively with those with whom we disagree. And when one can no longer disagree without being disagreeable, the inevitable result is conflict. Again, let us look to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Let us look to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. These are cautionary tales. We should heed them.
It leads us nowhere to utter the proverbial, "Yeah, but they started it!" What matters is who takes the first steps to end it.
What Americans of ALL persuasions must ask themselves is, "What am I willing to do to reconcile with those with whom I disagree? What am I prepared to do to restore civility?"
I would like to say I am hopeful, but I can't say as that I believe the path is clear. Demanding capitulation while heaping scorn upon one's opposition is a non-starter.
Hell on earth . He has destroyed america and is still doing so. I guess you have not had your eyes open for 8 years. Because he has destroyed this country and divided it in a way it was 100 years ago .I guess that is what you guys want to go backward because Hillary will not do anything unless it benefits her and all of you who a have voted for her will become obsolete. We will be in WWIII if Hillary gets in as well but I guess that is what yo want. .
You make some good points but I would argue that we as a nation, have been marching down this path since our inception, or at the very least, our independence. Our politicians, elected by the people, have constantly sought ever more power, we arm both sides in any conflict, many of which we have engineered. We then claim to be the saviors or avenging angles and in our wake lays destruction for which we are always blameless. The world is turning against us and soon we'll be the common enemy, where once we were the bright light of freedom. As each conflict appears, we the people, are more willing to give up more of our own freedoms and rights to ensure a since of safety and order. We have fallen into the trap set by those that would see this nation fall. We have given into our fears and our own Gov. has been complicit in fostering those fears for their own gain. Our elections are a farce as we've witnessed on both sides of the isle in the last primary's. Votes are purged, voting stations are closed, voting times are limited, large swaths of the country are Gerrymandered so as to prevent change, all so we can be herded by by the power brokers into voting against our own best interest and that of our country. How long has it been since this country has seen peace? How long did that peace last? No arm of the Gov. wants peace. They demand war for profit and power and if they can't get it by winning our votes they will go ahead w/o our consent as they always have. As far as the 9 month rule you refer to, all that is is a way to ensure fodder for the cannons. Look at how or Vets are treated now. They wave their flags, place their hands over their hearts and sing the national Anthem while at the same time charging universities tens of thousands of dollars to allow them to direct public military spectacles in an effort to recruit more fodder. They recruit from the poorest neighborhoods knowing there are few ways out of that world for those that live in it. Is it any wonder they would want to force women to be fodder factories? Of course they don't want to feed or educate those kids, Education leads to enlightenment and enlightened people don't need to take desperate steps to escape poverty. Trump embodies all that is wrong in our society and Clinton embodies all that is wrong with our Gov. Johnson is a grey area between both, but he does not stand for equality. He stands for State control of our freedoms and rights with no central Gov. to ensure they would be protected equally and he is completely Libertarian in his distaste for any type of regulation that would ensure those Rights be enforced. Even if I agreed with his politics or ideologies, neither he or Stein have the backing in place to withstand the onslaught from the dark side they would face to keep them true to their ideologies. Johnson would fare better, as the Republican Party would love nothing more than to see the United States become a nation of separated states warring against each other. We are already witnessing a form of tribalism to be honest. While Liberals would love to lay most, if not all the blame for our current state of affairs on Conservative politics, Democrats have been hard at work for decades creating a welfare state. A trap with no way out. Millions are marching in solidarity for a higher minimum wage but it's still not a living wage which means that even if they are successful in reaching their goal of $15.00 an hr. it won't be enough to unshackle the from Gov. safety net programs like SNAP or HUD. The creation of Too big To Fail Banks, a refusal of the DOJ to enforce anti trust laws and allow monopolies to take control of our economies and Media, a refusal from our politicians to stand up to special interest groups and pass legislation supported by nearly 90% of the electorate such as stricter gun laws, even if it's as simple as expanding background checks. A refusal to prosecute those who have stolen trillions of dollars in wealth from the public and in fact have rewarded them for it, and a concerted effort by many in Gov. to steal more. You could make voting mandatory but what would that accomplish if people don't know who or what they're voting for. Can you see the unintended consequences of that? what we can do as a society is elect people to school boards and State Gov. offices that would make sure our children were educated to know how Gov. works by the time they graduate and are of the age to vote. We have the world at our fingertips but millions refuse to use this technology for anything other than a microphone to shout their anger at others as opposed to educating themselves. The end of this horrid election will not be the end of our problems, just a new beginning. I saw someone yesterday post something to the effect "make sure we clear a pathway for Chelsea Clinton". My heart dropped. Enough of the political dynasties. The Rockefeller's, Bush's , Clinton's and many more who have controlled our country for a hundred yrs. If you want change then you must change the direction your traveling or you will end up in the same place over and over again. I'm glad my kids are grown. I feel for my Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren. If there's anything left they will be the ones that will suffer for our arrogance and ignorance.
You are to be applauded for giving these matters truly thoughtful consideration.
It wasn't W who invited in the Evangelicals. It was Reagan. He also invited the Klan in. He opened his 1980 campaign from Philadelphia, Mississippi.He knew that openly racist George Wallace won 4 states in 1968. He also knew that White Evangelicals in the South also had a racist streak.W. Bush didn't start the Racist wing of the GOP, he had become politically aware while part of it.
Lincoln said also if there is to be war, the South will start it, No he didn't fight the civil war to right a wrong, But once they started the war, the wrong could no longer be allowed or tolerated!
You might enjoy "Lincoln's Virtues: An Ethical Biography" by William Lee Miller. Well worth the read. Delves in to Lincoln's reasons for prosecuting the war against the South. A fascinating read.
Exactly. We are a nation of laws, and as long as the laws are followed, the rest is just humanity evolving and there's nothing to do about some people. People who live outside reality eventually fade away, so long as they are never given power over the majority.
We can go back to not allowing foreigners to own our media or news sources.This sounds good, but reading the article suggests that there are plenty of home-grown people that could happily own these media empires, and Murdoch isn't the one who turned Fox into what it is, Ailes can take much more of the credit...
At some point we need to decide if freedom of speech is more important than those that take advantage of people who cannot think for themselves. The extreme right wing, conservative talk, people like Alex Jones and Limbaugh, feed off those that are easily taken in. Not only is that evil, it is a criminal act in a way. Look at what Trump is inciting. He stands up there at his rallies and actually directs people to kill. He doesn't come out and say it, because he is too smart for that, but he hints about it. And those people who have no control over their anger, think he is talking to them. And because their brains work differently, they feel he is calling them personally to do a very important job. Timothy McVeigh was like that. Germany has a severe problem with skinheads for a long time. The PM did something about it. They rounded most of the skin heads up, put them in jail. There are still some bands of them , but it has been greatly reduced. I wish we could somehow do the same here. And if there is a blood bath after the election by these groups, I wonder if that will be the catalyst that will finally get rid of these groups and the talk radio that incites them.
I will always pick free speech. Always. To do otherwise is anti-American.