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Guest • 6 years ago
jdumon • 6 years ago

The number one lie was that Paul VI declared that the Latin Mass was strictly forbidden once the NO was enforced, and it remained so for 40 years, until Pope Benedict said it never was and issued Summorum Pontificum.

Julius II • 6 years ago

In regards to Benedict XVI, why didn't he correct the mass instead of create more confusion?

Steve Tackett • 6 years ago

Well, that's the million dollar question.Why indeed.

Richard Malcolm • 6 years ago

Well, Kwasniewski actually talks about that in the podcast.

Ivan mi je ime • 6 years ago

Dear bro Benedict, you should put this (the whole text) publicly, on some blog or website, so more people can read it.
"If people stop going to Confession and to Mass, how can they receive the Grace necessary to conquer concupiscence and stay free of mortal sin?"
- This is it. I was for a years long sure about the reason nr. 1 of so common widespread apostasy among the Catholic people. Clerics as layman. The omission of the Sacrament of Confession, or doing it on improper way, plus taking the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist in an unworthy way and in the state of sin, - MUST be the main cause of the fall into every kind of sin, and the same keep sinning just more often and the sins becomes greater and greater. So after a while, from such Catholics you can expect every even unthinkable thing to say, do, write, or preach. We do not need to imagine what should happen with people who are mentioned here and are doing this way for years, even decades! And, especially those people whom job is the teaching of Catholic Faith! We don't need to think about that, because we SEE it right now with our own eyes. We see those people and we recognize them easily in these days, because they are fallen so deeply, that they can't recognize the truth and think they are doing great job.

"In the end, some few years ago, I had to stop attending the Novus Ordo. If I had continued, I felt I would have simply lost my faith. Certainly I would have been bored to death by the sheer banality of it all, or moved to anger:..."
- Very same case here.

"We have to get the Traditional Mass back if we ever want the Church to triumph in this world. You can’t abuse it. Indeed, it is impossible to assist at it and NOT be a Catholic."
- This very important true, you are saying here in such short but very nicely and understandable way. There is, in the other way, when man assist at the NO, the big question about his catholic faith. My sincere hope is that there are still in the (far away) world, many NO Masses, and the priests, and the parishioners who satisfy our Lord...

Guest • 6 years ago
Ivan mi je ime • 6 years ago

I believe you don't mind,...if I will to say something about the 'greater dignity' too, that you've mentioned above twice in correct sense, which we should prefer and even have as one of the main goals according the new 'modern catholic doctrine'.

If they really mean it in this way, just like that: "For the sake of greater dignity", I am asking myself, why? Why should we make of this a goal, when we have learned by our Lord to do quite opposite:
"Because every one that exalteth himself, shall be humbled; and he that humbleth himself, shall be exalted." (Luke 14,11)

The meaning and understanding of the word dignity must always be well-judged in what context it is placed. We have to be even more careful when we are trying to achieve some "even more dignity".
For it is easier to conceal personal pride and arrogance under the guise of dignity, rather than modesty and humility. If we think in gradation comparison, dignity is exactly in the middle:
humility -- modesty -- dignity -- pride -- arrogance
So, it can be easily used as a trap! The effort and the desire for 'greater dignity', usually comes from that seducer and swindler, the father of all lies.

If I am humble and modest, then I am dignified too, as it befits to God's child and servant.
But if I try to be (more) dignified, without to be first and for sure humble and modest, then this desire for greater dignity comes from pride and arrogance (albeit hidden).
And if I somehow succeed to achieve that greater dignity, then my pride and arrogance will most probably grow too.

Richard Malcolm • 6 years ago

Hello Comrade Chairman,

It also represents – as the citations above prove – the fruit of a significant number of people within the Church who were seeking ways of robbing the Mass of its Catholic nature in order to appeal to German, Dutch, American, English and other protestants, to whom they already felt closer than they did to their fellow Catholics.

As Fr John Hunwicke - himself a quite recent convert - once observed about ecumenism: "Ecumenism is fashionable in some Catholic circles. I have long suspected that 'liberal' Catholics, who profess a sympathy for Ecumenism, favour it because their real desire is to change their own Church so that it conforms to the paradigms of Liberal Protestantism."

But I think many of us have suspected something like this for a long time.

Stewart Davies • 6 years ago

Many years ago, (possibly twenty), I came across a magazine article dedicated to Bl. John Henry Newman; (unfortunately I no longer have the reference). the only small section of it that I still have tells us:

Clericalism has filled the sanctuaries with lay people performing all sorts of roles contradictory to their baptismal dignity in a clumsy ballet of amateurish sacerdotalism. Far worse than the triviality of its language and didacticism, our new clerical servitude of the laity, paraded as a promethean empowerment of the people of God, and its confusion of the anthropology of the sexes would have made [Newman] weep more holy tears than he shed in his own years. For he knew that the music of hell was not dissonance but banality; and he was certain that the politics of hell was not inequality but androgyny. (From memory, I recall that there was also the statement to the effect that; if Newman had been asked to hold hands during the Our Father, he would have gone apoplectic).

P.S. I would like, if I may, to read your essay in its entirety. If you are agreeable, my email address is: j.stewart.davies@gmail.com

Philip Michael • 6 years ago

Dear comrade, I think that you will agree that there can never be an effective reform of the reform. What is needed is a return to traditional Catholic teaching and of course the traditional liturgy. The crisis in the Church is without doubt, a crisis of the liturgy. Regarding the novel teachings emanating from the Second Vatican Council, I am reminded by the movements that have sought, in one way or another, to either undermine the Church through hateful subversion or by naïve movements that seek to change the Church to fit a modern worldly outlook.
As you know, one demonstration of modernist thinking in the Church was recognized by Pope Pius X, most particularly, in the French Sillon movement of Marc Saigner. On the surface the aspirations of this movement appeared to be a reasonable defence for a Catholic democracy and a modernising protection for the Church against her enemies. The movement was supported by many French working class people, and was initially praised by bishops and priests. Pope Pius X indeed praised many worthy aspects of this movement and its adherents. However, Pope Pius X saw the dangers to the faith inherent in their ideas and so condemned the errors. Tragically, many of those errors were resurrected at the Vatican Council II and have gained a momentum that has greatly contributed to this present crisis. The present occupier of the seat of Peter condemns those who are loyal to the traditional teaching of the Church. It is a shame that he does not realizes that his brand of Catholicism has been wholly condemned by a very saintly and wise pope.

Guest • 6 years ago
Philip Michael • 6 years ago

Not sure what a spiritual crisis means. I can only understand and afirm belief in the Catholic Faith. And this is where I see a failure of belief. Lex orandi, Lex credendi. Anyway we know what we mean.

Jorge Cerra • 6 years ago

Thank you Mr. Stalin for this documented comment. Perhaps I will show it to my Parish Priest, who is an excellent Priest, always with thoughts for the Virgin Mary and for JPII, but I think that he is not an enthusiast of the Latin Mass. He is now beginning his fifties. May be it is because the Latin was not the strongest subject taught at the Seminaries (I don't know whether Latin was then relegated).

Rob • 6 years ago

Bravissimo, Comrade! I just this evening was constrained to go to a vigil no mass...it was as you described, though the young priest is orthodox and good...and clueless...during Communion, a lady walked right to the altar and without even a nod grabbed a communion dish and began helping the priest and his collectives distribute the Lord...they do not know what they are doing, I think and hope!

Richard Malcolm • 6 years ago

At 1:05:22, Steve recounts learning of the attitude of many bishops who resisted, back in the "Indult Era" (1984-2007), requests for the Traditional Latin Mass from laity - and even pressure from prelates from Rome: "It's the will of the Holy Father that you allow the people to have this mass. " And the bishops often responded, "The Pope is not the Pope of my diocese."

Which is entirely true, of course - it happened all the time. But it rubs up against Dr. Kwasniewski's earlier point that a key cause of so much of the Modernist Crisis has been rampant ultramontanism in the wake of Vatican I. This doesn't sound terribly ultramontanist, though, does it? But I think there are two explanations of what was (and is) at work here:

1) What we're seeing is obviously a selective and superficial ultramontanism, at least in the post-conciliar era. It's hard to find a bishop who will openly question or challenge the Pope; even liberal dissent from bishops (of which there has been so much) is typically cast in careful euphemisms and esoteric language. Obviously, at any rate, the ultramontanism on vivid, even crass display from certain prelates and lay figures in this pontificate was never in evidence in the past two pontificates. They're ultra about the montane when it's using the liberal ratchet.

2) Recall also that one enormously important result of Vatican II was an aggrandizement of the power of bishops. This passed under the name of collegiality (See Lumen Gentium #22), and was favored by many at the time as a way to restore a better balance in relationship between Pope and bishops in the wake of....all that growing ultramontanism; and it was concretized particularly in the form of episcopal conferences, a new innovation. Yet in a sense, the actual result was the worst of both worlds: escalating ultramontanism fed by mass media which stifled episcopal voices publicly, allowing them to abdicate their teaching office (conceded most of the time to the conference) while acting in increasingly arbitrary and even abusive ways with few checks toward their own laity and even priests in the exercise of their governing office.

But a true resolution of this crisis will need to entail restoration a balanced and traditional view of the authority - and limitations - of the Papacy. And, for that matter, a restoration of the true teaching and governing office of bishops and priests.

John P Glackin • 2 years ago

We also need to address wayward priests and bishops who dissent from Our Lord's teachings and truths and Traditions.

Richard Malcolm • 2 years ago

Yes, there are all too many of those.

Elleblue Jones • 6 years ago

Wow, thank you so much for the material presented. I finally understand why I left the Church in the 80's. The 70's were very rough and rocky, plus I was in a religious community where changes took place on a daily basis without discussion. The mass no longer involved Christ and it became a social event and I lost interest. After a number of years away I started praying the Rosary and one day at work I decided I had to go to confession. Phoned the closest church, went to confession and attended mass that evening. Having found a wonderful, pious spiritual director I now attend the TLM and feel at home.

Steve Skojec • 6 years ago

I would just like to thank all of you for leaving comments on this. Those among our audience who love our podcasts are die-hard, but podcasts usually get very little observable engagement.

It's very helpful to get this feedback.

cs • 6 years ago

I asked my parents several years ago, who grew up in Vatican l as young adults, and wondered why it was so "easy"
for all these novelties to take hold in the parishes. How was it that, for a time period, there was virtually no TLM to be found anywhere and the laity seemed to accept this, but a few?

I do not cast stones here, I simply ask. Perhaps I would have reacted the same way, almost in dismay, blind trust, or maybe without realizing what was being lost as my church altars were being ripped out, along with the altar rails.
Had Satan's work already taken hold so firmly, to entice the laity and the priesthood.

How could a pope, Pope Paul VI, hope to gain laity by so changing the Liturgy, all the while, knowing that many would be abandoned and have great difficulty in attending Mass with the changes, as he stated? The Father of the Prodigal Son never left His House to get the lost, nor abandoned his remaining son.....He simply waited and welcomed him back on His terms.

LB236 • 6 years ago

Regarding trust, I find it impossible to trust most members of the Novus Ordo clergy, however orthodox they may be. As one who admits to suffering from scrupulosity, and who has no physical access to the classical rite and its associated sacraments, I find assisting at NO Masses just to fulfill my Sunday obligation almost unbearable, as all I hear in my mind is question after question: "Is this priest's Mass valid? Does he have proper intention to confect the Sacrament? How do I know? Should I be here? Am I actually offending our Blessed Lord by assisting at this Mass rather than simply staying home?" The same applies to the confessional: "Does this priest really believe he has the authority to absolve my sins in the name of Jesus Christ? Can I trust any counsel he may offer? Does he even believe in mortal sin? Would it be better for me to simply stay at home and never go to confession, even though I know it is impossible for me to remain in the state of grace for the rest of my life?"

THIS is what 50 years of liturgical and theological anarchy has brought us. We no longer know who to trust and what to do, especially when there appear to be no good choices available.

jdumon • 6 years ago

LB236,
You don't have to worry about the validity of confessions and consecrations by N.O. priests because otherwise this would mean that the Devil already has won over the Church.
Every time you confessed to a trad priest, I guess that even when you committed serious mortal sins he never refused to absolve you. Then in the same way when you sincerely confess a N.O. priest ALL your sins in the same way (even if a few ones look a bit "outdated" or ludicrous in his eyes) you aren't supposed to know whether his absolution is valid or not, Jesus is behind him and already absolved you.
For the Eucharist, if sometimes the Consecration might have been dubious, certainly some trad and experienced exorcists like the late Fr Amorth would have warned us that consequently these purportedly consecrated hosts don't "work" when used during exorcisms.
So far as I know I never heard such things.

John P Glackin • 2 years ago

The unlawful and unjust lockdowns and masks mandates are Chastisements from Our Lord for accepting the Novus Ordo as valid worship. We all must return to the Traditional Latin Mass. And true devotions and Our Lord's divine truths.

1dudette • 5 years ago

i grew up with the TLM. I surely miss it and the majestic body of liturgical music that is the Catholic heritage. NO masses are so protestant, with their guitars and really really BAD music so poorly written one wonders how these "compsoers" convince anyone to play their tripe.

Mark Robertson • 6 years ago

This was a most excellent episode. I wish you and your guest could have had more time together. I have been involved in the traditional liturgical movement since the 80’s and I remember just how bad things were in the 80’s and 90’s. One question I oiled have loved to hear your guest comment on is: I understand that the liturgical brain trust at and after Vatican II was of the opinion that the rite must be updated, but once the ‘update’ happened the consensus from senior churchmen everywhere seemed to shift to a philosophy of ‘the old rite is dangerous’. It always seemed to me that they harbored an irrational fear of the Tridentine Rite and those who were attached to it. It seemed to me, at times, pathological. What was the philosophical and ideological cause of this radical shift in thinking? I would be curious to find out.

Pablo • 6 years ago

Very well said: The liturgy ought to make the acts of adoration, thanksgiving, petition, and contrition easier, not more difficult for us.

INVASION USA • 6 years ago

I've been waiting for a pod-cast like this for a long time. Very informative and candid.

cs • 6 years ago

Thanks Steve for this. I am listening right now and really, really would love to hear the answers to these questions.

Thought, I would thank you now, in case i forget.

Steve Skojec • 6 years ago

My pleasure, and thank you for saying so. If I can get my act together, more podcasts should be coming down the pike soon.

Totus tuus • 6 years ago

Yup. You guys could have talked about this for hours and I would not have tired from listening. Please do get to those followup podcasts.
I had a very similar experience as your wife: a convert quite underwhelmed by the NO and then upon assisting at a TLM it just clicked "here God is treated like He's GOD!"
Unfortunately I am stuck in a NO parish and my family is not up for traveling an hour to a Mass they don't understand.
THANK YOU for this podcast and God bless ;-)

Steve Skojec • 6 years ago

Thank you!

John P Glackin • 2 years ago

Pope Benedict should have order the return to the Traditional Latin Mass. And ended the changes to the Mass. Otherwise it's just your preference.

Faustina11 • 6 years ago

Bravo!

Pablo • 6 years ago

I wonder what the cost of a hand missal would have cost (equivalent to the US dollar today) back in the 19th century.

yerfackingmammy • 6 years ago

Me likee.

The Persistence • 6 years ago

Wish there was a transcript available! I don't have the patience to listen to it right now.

Ivan mi je ime • 6 years ago

Another useful option is to download it, and listen whenever you want, when driving a car, or working in the garden, or walking trough the forest,...

Steve Skojec • 6 years ago

I'm going to see what I can do. Transcripts on shows of this length can be a bit difficult/costly. I've already reached out to someone who might be able to help.

The Persistence • 6 years ago

Thanks, Steve. Please don't stress about it. I'm just being lazy!

jdumon • 6 years ago

A written transcript of this interview would be very helpful for those like me who are not enough fluent in spoken english thus being unable to understand some parts of it.

Theodore • 6 years ago

As a recent French convert, I very much doubt that the number of traditionnal priests will outnumber, or even significantly compare to, the number of priests not willing to celebrate the TLM exclusively, anytime soon. The French Church is considerably more dynamic than most of its European equivalents, and this dynamism does not only come from the traditionnalist wing ; a good measure of orthodox, non-traditionnalists priests are ordained every year, most notably in the Communauté Saint Martin, which is NOT traditionnalist.
The issue of the "trad" world in France is that it's very much cut off, culturally and sociologically, from the rest of the Church. And the Church herself, in her more dynamical elements, is kind of restricted to a closed social middle (the "bourgeoisie" of whatever elevation and the old nobility ; that's the "popular" image of the practising Catholic in France, and it is not far off the mark). The liturgical debates in France are absolutely non-existant, because we've been the place where the so-called "Lefebvrist schism" happened, it has left very profound scars in many families, and it has polarized the topic of liturgy in a way that would be, I think, barely conceivable in the US. To be a traditionnalist, in the mind of most non-traditionnalists Catholics (and I'm talking about "real Catholics", people who practise their faith and believe what the Church teaches), is inevitably to be a royalist and most probably a right-wing extremist, often associated with nostalgia for French Algeria (whose loss was the matrix of most of the hardcore right-wing movements at the time of the conflict between Archbishop Lefebvre and the Church), because the lefebvrist movement definitely attracted that kind of people.

So, no, the French situation is much more complicated than "traditionnalists are gonna take over". Of course I won't mind if that happened ; but that's not going to happen anytime soon, and the dire state of the liturgy in France (I'm not even talking about gross liturgical abuses ; but you'll never get ad orientem or Gregorian Chant, and even the youth is closed to that, because they've been raised with the songs of the Emmanuel Community, the first charismatic group ever) has no foreseable prospect of ceasing.