Disqus Comments

qith • 3 years ago

Thank you WIN! I've let you know when I thought your articles were lacking and poorly done. About this one I would like to say that I thought it was timely and well done.

I will make one point of disagreement: Our commission to "go into the whole world and preach the Gospel" is not an optional program. You don't have to like it, but it was the last command we were given. Of course this is a trademark of the "Evangelical" church, From my interaction here, I have not found that any Jews have been converted against their will. So, this is really a moot point. One thing I have found: Jews tend to be more diligent in finding out just what they believe when they meet a "missionary." Is this a bad thing?

ProclaimLiberty • 3 years ago

There is a problem, qith, with Christianity's doctrine of a "great commission", that underlies its missionary activities. First of all, in the Greek text, it was not a command to go forth and convert people to another religion, but a command to make disciples who would obey what that Galilean rabbi had taught to his own Jewish disciples -- which was to obey the Torah as understood by the scribes and Pharisees. This is exactly the same exhortation as found in Pirkei Avot to "make many disciples".

Further, the passage does not command going anywhere, but presumes that the disciples will do this in the course of their travels "as you go". And the inhabitants in view within the "nations" cited in the text were not gentiles, but diaspora Jews. It wasn't until Acts 10 some years later that "Peter" experienced a vision that made him consider that perhaps gentile G-d-fearers could be visited with some aspect of the rabbi's teachings.

Hence the missionary model is founded on a misapprehension; and it has been misused historically as a means to foist disdain and worse upon Jews who were already doing what the good rabbi had advocated, namely, to apply and study Torah. Thus it has been as destructive against Jews in its own way as the Nazis and other persecutors throughout history.

Add to those problems the misinterpretation of what is the "gospel" message to be purveyed. Rav Yeshua's exhortation to his Jewish audiences was to make repentance a normative part of their attitudes, and approach their obedience to Torah with a mindset of HaShem's sovereignty in their lives, a "kingdom of heaven" model. You won't find this in the message preached by Christian missionaries throughout the ages nor even at present.

Of course, one could make allowances for preaching to gentiles a "Torah-lite" message consistent with the missive sent to gentile assemblies in Acts 15, but Christian preaching to Jews has been an exercise in blindness and hypocrisy. Yes, that's a "bad thing".

Many modern Christian gentiles, on the other hand, have learned better than all that, and reflect the ancient prophetic vision of the nations in support of Jewish restoration in their own land, which, I might add, is still very much a work in progress -- especially on a spiritual or attitudinal level. We are very much in need of encouragement to divest ourselves of the ancient errors of "sinat 'hinam", baseless hatreds, and "minut", sectarian factionalism, which the writers of Talmud blamed for the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70CE. That is the "spiritual warfare" needed in the present to restore Israel to HaShem's vision for us.

qith • 3 years ago

Actually, one of the earliest things in which I was instructed by my spiritual mother, was that I was always to consider that one of the bench marks of my faith was, how I responded Gen. 12:3, 6, and others. I was never to give in to the hatreds you mentioned. And as the restoration in Ezra and Nehemiah were works in progress over many years, so I agree with you about this work of restoration. A nation was born in a day, but not fully made. But in God's ongoing work, each new phase reveals God's skill and craftsmanship. Christians are also an ongoing work, and we are wed to Hosea's vision of your nation becoming once again "Ammi" and "Oholabah?" There were gentile hatreds, but just as the surrounding nations took advantage of God's chastisement of Israel. God has and will punish them as well as the Christians who are slow to learn. But I would tell you that those Leftist churches which hate Israel are apostates. They don't know the love of God, nor are they any part of Jesus. Their father is the father of lies. And they will act accordingly. Luther's folly has and will be purged from the Church.

qith • 3 years ago

Another part of the problem is, He told us that he would make us fishers of men. Well, it is conceivable to me that fishermen in Oregon may use a slightly nuanced "bait" if you will. I would never speak to a gentile as I'm speaking to you. It wouldn't mean anything to him. But from you and your culture come the covenants, the law, the glory, and the Fathers. These things mean nothing to a man who has no understanding of God . I had no understanding of this when someone shared faith in Jesus with me. By the way, they couldn't make me choose anything, I thought it all folly at first, and much like you, I used Church history to refute what they said. I come from a family of proud heathens....haha. We knew much better than those Christians. But sadly , some of the Christians I had met knew nothing of God for all of their time in the faith. I'm glad that this teenager met someone going and telling some good news, not someone passing on laws and arid desert sand. You may have some disdain for my experiential journey to the faith. But I can only think that if I was made in the image of God, then it is more than God being right through the law, it must also be God caring for each of His creation. You and I can speak of how one gets water according to wisdom, but I must tell you, for a thirsty man, Good news is very simple, H2O applied.

qith • 3 years ago

My first attempt: 1. There is a problem with your problem. The great commission was to be carried out as stated in Acts 1:8, in a staged advance, which would end in the uttermost parts of the Earth. The proof is in the pudding. Here I am, as far from Jerusalem as one can get on planet Earth. Sadly, too many Christians think as you do. The devolving of my country into a cesspool of its own filth, speaks to the laziness of the church, and lack of concern for those whose ritual miqveh is within that cesspool. I use this term because as I have read recently even in WIN, "progressives may be Atheist, but they are not without their very demanding religion. " At one point, God had to allow a severe persecution to come upon the church within Israel, because nothing is more scary than the unknown, even death is more comfortable, as long as it is within some kind of norm.

TxSassy007 • 3 years ago

The times in the end of days & as we move closer to Daniels 70th week- wear are seeing the falling away of the "Church" into apostasy.

ProclaimLiberty • 3 years ago

That seems to me a very good first attempt, qith, at continuing the conversation in a civilized manner. Connecting Acts 1:8 with Mt.28:19 is interesting, though it is a bit of a stretch to equate being witnesses of what one has seen and experienced to making disciples. As for doing so in stages that reach to the remotest parts of the planet -- that puts me in mind of what has been the Jewish experience throughout most of the past two millennia as we have been dispersed in exile among the nations. Rav Yeshua's Jewish disciples certainly would have been a subset of that dispersion, if we view this passage in Acts as including a sort of reflection of prophetic insight. Of course, even that passage was focused on Jews, in Judea and Samaria for example; though you could infer that the witness or example would have influenced the majority population of gentiles in "remote" places in any case -- as, in fact, it did after Shimon Kefa's (Peter's) vision and Rav Shaul's subsequent efforts on their behalf.

Now if you wish to complain that modern Christians in general have not sufficiently reflected even the role of witnesses to something extraordinary, let alone the role of teaching disciples who by their increasing numbers significantly influence their surrounding societies to envy their morality and the benefits it brings, that's another matter. Doing these things would not require an explicit command or "commission", however. There are more than enough commands and examples within the Tenach and the apostolic writings to have encouraged righteous living and teaching, as well as examples that even a society that begins with righteousness and miraculous support from HaShem often suffers decline and punishment because too many people within it choose not to pursue and maintain its best principles and practices.

That works for gentile societies just as it has done for the Jewish one; and, regrettably, both have had their share of failures. Thankfully, both have evidenced righteous remnants who preserve and promulgate their best aspects. The tricky part is how to get the right folks, the ones who have taken on the sense of responsibility to learn what may improve matters, into positions where they may actually be able to conduct some degree of "tikun" to repair the failings of even their little corner of the world.

This response to your "first" may also contain answers to your subsequent ones as well. I'm perplexed, however, about what you may be referencing as "the church within Israel" suffering persecution at some particular point.

qith • 3 years ago

I appreciate your well-thought response to my post. I am writing you a short reply as in the past, Disqus "cuts me off at the knees when I make longer replies. Therefore, if you don't hear MORE from me, you will know that it was NOT for a lack of my trying. But Disqus is "protecing" you from my developed Christian ideology. Haha, Blessings!

Don Spilman • 3 years ago

“many Christian churches have taken an anti-Israel position”
There is a verse in the Bible which declares, “Depart from me I never knew you”. Many of these so called Christians will hear these words. ..... ..... also....
“The “battle for Israel, at its core, is a spiritual one,”
Isn't that rather glaringly OBVIOUS? Would Israel and Jews even exist today if there was not a clear God connection? Of course NOT! I hope his book has something a bit more chewier than that!

masseur1950 • 3 years ago

I pray GOD always keeps HIS promise.

And I KNOW Israel will NEVER die.
My GOD is all powerful. I only have to believe to be saved.
The god of the cult has no powers: one has to die to get to see his god?