When it comes to the relevant science, I confess to being one of the vast throng of Lilliputians raptly watching the giants among us battle it out, whilst striving to keep ourselves from being squashed in the process. (Personally, I’ve deeply appreciated the discussion between Scott and Sean; I hold great respect for both of them.)

For me, though—and, I suspect, many others—the best answer at which I have been able to arrive as to the question of whether or not the vaccine or wearing of masks is effective is a not-very-reassuring, “Maybe(?)”

Like everyone else, my family and I chose to do what seems best for us. What that is, precisely, is really no one’s business. Period.

A few things are clear to me, however:

• If the science is clear, it is being communicated very poorly.
• Vilifying and demonizing people for the choices they have made in this crisis is needless. It certainly isn’t helpful.
• People’s true characters are being revealed in frighteningly clear fashion.
• In terms of the Remnant Mission, debating the efficacy of the vaccines in question is a massive distraction. The fashion in which it is being handled is needlessly divisive. (Nick Miller’s dismissive and mocking tone in his editorial is a clear example of this.) The church should allow the information to be shared and leave it to people to make their own decisions.
• We should be united in our position against force and the violation of any person’s conscience!
• I believe, where it does not violate one’s convictions, we should accommodate one another’s concerns for their own health and well-being without calumny and judgment.

Finally, since it was brought up in this discussion, the link to the Women’s Ordination debate among our people should not be missed:

It’s the underlying issue that is of greater concern —danger, even!

With Women’s Ordination, it’s the faulty hermeneutical framework and methodology it’s proponents have introduced in order to bolster their position that is so egregiously dangerous.

In terms of the vaccination debate, the approach and implementation of a regime of force and manipulation should be deeply troubling to everyone!

These are the issues I believe are worthy of debate and, hopefully, erecting a platform upon which God’s faithful can and should unite.

Then again, that’s just me. Maybe (?)

"Vilifying and demonizing people for the choices they have made in this crisis is needless. It certainly isn’t helpful."

A big amen! to that.

I've been accused of "demonizing" people. I don't think I have. At least I haven't accused anyone of lying (as I've been accused of), or called anyone names. The only "pejorative" term I've used, and it's a useful term because it's descriptive, not derogatory, is "anti-vaxxer." It refers to those who are opposed to all vaccines for whatever reasons. It's rather extreme, in my opinion. What I'm opposed to is when some of these anti-vaxxers question the spirituality of those who choose to be vaccinated. And many of these folks have no more credibility than I do on medical issues. They go to this or that doctor's video or report, or whatever, and that becomes their "gospel." Never mind that another medical expert may have a different take on the issue.

There is so much conflicting information out there, that it's nearly impossible to arrive at the truth. So for anyone (pro or con) to be super dogmatic about the issue, is to darken counsel by words without knowledge, to coin a phrase.

Vaccines may be "nobody's business" but many here seem to think it's their business to tell everybody else what to do.

Like I said, people’s characters are being revealed through this crisis. Force can work both ways—to vaccinate or else be ostracized; conversely, to refuse vaccination or else be dismissed as unfaithful to Christ.

Neither are acceptable.

When it comes to accommodating someone else’s concerns for their health and safety, regardless of my belief (and so long as my conscience does not object), I believe in applying the principles outlined in Romans 14:1-12 and 1 Corinthians 8:1-13.

I would quintuple upvote you if I could.

Maybe this will suffice: 👍👍👍👍👍

I get a big laugh out of people saying I can't ask whether they vaccinated their kids, because it's "inappropriate" but they go around telling us how bad and dangerous and ineffective vaccines are and that nobody should get them.

Huh?

I'm hearing the opposite from the vast majority out there. Here, thank God, I'm hearing something that connects well with my thinking, except from a few vaccine pushers. :-)

I've never "pushed" vaccines on anyone.

That's great. I haven't "pushed" being un-injected on anyone.

While I have been vaccinated, I cannot understand the crazy push by the establishment to vaccinate when we know the vaccinated can still spread the virus at similar rates as the unvaccinated. What happened to my body, my choice? Life is full of risks, so for those who want to take a chance, let them. We are witnessing the pieces falling into place where without a political mark, people will be prohibited from participating in economic activity, such as buying and selling.

We happen to live in an interesting community comprised with a large number of Amish people who do not immunize. There are several thousand people of this religious order who have decided to live in faith that God‘s will will be done even if they don’t take vaccines. To this point there have been no deaths, due to COVID-19, among our community members of the Amish faith. They have not socially distanced nor taken any precautions against COVID-19.
I just wish modern medicine could learn how to treat illness like COVID-19 as well as the Amish do.

How do the Amish treat Covid?

I guess you'll never know Ron!

This is also true in Holmes County, Ohio, where they have the lowest vaccination rate and the least viral transmission. Over half of the county is Amish.

I assume you are in GA?

I find the subject of the Amish and Covid fascinating--glad to see someone with firsthand knowledge of an Amish community share here. Do you know what their approach has been to treating it?

". . .most of us were hoping to see our church simply be 1) neutral on vaccines; but 2) active in defense of those of all faiths and races undergoing persecution for their vaccine choices. This would’ve been the most . . .principled approach on liberty of conscience, one of our cherished doctrines." Yes, this is what I hoped for, but instead I am baffled and in shock at the recommendation that we accept the "consensus" and go along with the "commonly held belief" of the "experts". In matters of conscience the opinion of "experts" doesn't matter and is often suspect. Thank you for speaking and acting on the defense of conscience, Brother Scott. continue to stand strong. A nurse who just filed her "sincerely held belief" where over 80% in the large hospital where she works have been vaccinated. She faces the cut in mid-September unless they accept her request for exemption due to her conscience. She told me that she cried when she began watching the CCC symposium. "I thought, like Elijah, that I was the only one who objected to being forced to take the vaccination." She was affirmed and encouraged by the messages of the symposium. Praise God!!!! It doesn't matter where the misled article is reprinted, it doesn't make it right. If anyone wants to share their reaction to the Lake Union's commentary by Elder Miller, click on the article and then scroll down to "Contact us". That's where you can respond!

Hey Scott...thank you for this post. You may have heard from Audio Verse 2 sermons from Alister Huong..... I do believe it answers your question stated early in you explanation concerning your previous belief system into the Remnant. I understand. Very good preface

I prefer to not claim Jesuits have infiltrated the church..... even if I think they might have....I prefer the explanation Alister Huong gives in these presentations concerning our society today..

I did hesitate (due to it's titles) when they were presented to me. My background was spiritualism and unfortunately, the worship of our precious Savior's enemy.

The only explanation I look at is, when we wander from the Cross of Christ, the voices we hear are mistaken for the Voice of The Holy Spirit. Discernment is gone. Those that take the position in that article have wandered (providing they were in one accord with Christ) from the narrow road...either knowingly or not knowing.

I agree with you completely concerning the mandating etc.....Thank You for bringing this to light. I am not in that Union and did not see it.

I am also indebted to the faithfulness of Fulcrum7

Photo of Alistair Huong Audio Verse
2. You Shall Be as Gods: Spiritualism's End-time Deception
Alistair Huong 10/24/20, 4:00 PM1:37:48Movie
Photo of Alistair Huong
1. The Speaking Serpent: A Pandemic of Spiritualism

As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel’s message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren. When Sabbath keepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them. {GC 608.2}

Can you post a link, but I am off in search now....

And Deborah, thank-you for your post. It is very uplifting.

Here is the link to Allistair Huong's presentation:

https://www.audioverse.org/...

Thank you, I should have done that

From Huong's presentation there is this SOP quote:

"I was directed to this scripture as especially applying to modern spiritualism: Colossians 2:8: "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." 1T 297.1.

Worldly philosophy/ideology is a type of spiritualism.

So a question: From whom does our church in the NAD get their statement?

There is so tremendously much info available to those who care to look, from high-up scientists, doctors, RNs, pharma whistle-blowers, etc., that show the complete phoniness and lunacy of this so-called pandemic. Much analysis has been done on the experimental shot showing it is a death warrant.

Mainstream news has been flipped upside down, telling people that everyone getting sick and hospitalized have not taken the shot, when in fact, most of those have taken the shot, and are reacting to the graphine oxide nanoparticles in it. They are not reporting the thousands of deaths from the shot, or the thousands permanently disabled from it.

I wish folks like F7 readers would work to spread links to the many sources giving honest truth about this topic. Most people are lazy and won't look for it themselves, and buy into the propaganda. We are heading for even more tyranny, and our church is becoming an arm of the state.

Another "paper". Actual vaxxed vs unvaxxed study Dr. Paul Thomas MD, Dr. James Lyons-Weiler, scroll down to James Lyons-Weiler interview. Supporting documents below that.
https://www.doctorsandscien...

Is it written in invisible type?

There, I fixed it. An attempt from my phone.

You need the tinfoil hat to see it.

This is wonderful news! Truly! Herd immunity might not be out of reach after all!

The only problem of course is that gaining natural immunity comes with far FAR greater risks for long-term injuries, hospitalization, and death compared to getting the vaccine - which is kinda the whole point of vaccines.

Another "paper" https://twitter.com/RandPau...

You know it would be so much more helpful for us as a church to continue to present the eight natural remedies as the best way to prepare for not only this pandemic, but the next one....rather than jumping on a rickety, unreliable bandwagon that is doomed for a breakdown.

The Adventist Health Message is a great place to start, but it just doesn't offer enough protection during a pandemic like this one. Some only start to realize this once they personally see their own SDA vegan friends, who are young (in their 30s and 40s) and very fit and healthy, who are doing everything right according to the Health Message that we've been given, end up in the MICU for weeks with blood clots throughout their bodies very near death because they thought they were safe from COVID-19. They just weren't. I've seen this happen to several friends of mine. You don't know how your body will deal with a COVID-19 infection. You just don't know - especially if you're older than 65. You can tilt the odds in your favor some 70-80% via the Health Message, but this just isn't enough compared to the advantages that could be gained by also taking the mRNA vaccine at the same time.

They would probably have been better off if they had received the right treatment.

They did receive the "right treatment" - unless you're talking about HCQ or IVM (and some took those drugs as well) which didn't help either.

It seems from the studies available so far, that Ivermectin helps with 84-90% probability..

So what is the "right treatment"? I have numerous friends and relatives who have sought out treatment, been tested, and were then sent home after being told "there is no treatment for Covid" and given absolutely no medical advice on what they should do while they wait it out. (One person was given a prescription for cough syrup).

Since when do medical professionals turn patients away without attempting treatment, and multiple ones at that? Many doctors are known for their tenacity and dedication to finding solutions for their patients. This is why Dr. McCullough's case for early treatment is so compelling--why not at least attempt early treatment, thereby decreasing serious hospitalizations?

There are things that Dr. McCullough promotes regarding early treatment that actually do help - such as monoclonal antibodies and steroids. It's just that IVM and HCQ don't help. Still, even early treatments that are often helpful aren't always enough.

Oh? Can you show me the long-term stats of the vaccines? Am assuming you're comparing those.

So far, 636k people have died of COVID-19 in the US; 4.5 million worldwide - to include a dozen family friends of mine (some younger than 50). Many more have sustained long-term injuries even though they survived. This includes young, healthy SDA vegans who thought they were safe because of their excellent health and lifestyle, only to end up in the MICU for weeks with blood clots throughout their bodies.

In comparison, I personally know no one who has sustained any serious or long-term injury from being vaccinated against COVID-19. The mRNA vaccines, in particular, are the cleanest and are far more effective than was ever hoped. They were extensively tested, more than most vaccines or drugs are usually tested, via double-blinded placebo-controlled trials on 70,000 human volunteers and in very successful animal trials as well. The safety profile has proven to be very high in these trials, and in the general role-out to the public as well now that hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated worldwide.

The claim that "more time" is needed, is simply untenable at this point. The notion that something serious and unexpected may yet turn up is extremely unlikely. The mRNA technology has been around and has been extensively studied and used now for over 30 years. We know very well how it works. There is no significant mystery here. And, historically, if a negative effect for a vaccine or medication turns up, it turns up within the first few months, not multiple years or decades down the line.

In short, the demonstrated risks of a COVID-19 infection far outweigh the known or future risks of getting an mRNA vaccine at this point.

Statistically, if you know dozens and dozens of young, super-healthy people who have died from C19 and/or permanently debilitated, you must therefore be "good friends" with several hundred thousand people. Or more.

We know a few people too. We live in a tight-knit community, we have kids at two large universities (95,000 at Liberty University fyi), two kids at the SDA academy, have ties to all the local churches, campmeeting folks, summer camp folks, and we haven't heard of a single death of a healthy young person.

And you know "dozens"?

A simple no would've sufficed. I know no one that died from covid but 4 who became very ill after their shots, 2 of which died within 8 days. At this point in time dealing with Delta you shouldn't be pushing these shots.
https://twitter.com/disclos...

Just because natural immunity offers good protection doesn't mean that someone who has never been infected by COVID-19 is better off getting infected vs. getting the vaccine. That's just not remotely true. I just got off the phone with my brother-in-law Dr. Roger Seheult. He's working in the ICU today in S. Cal. which is completely full with those who are sick with COVID-19. It's worse than it was back in February. Those who are dying are now even younger than before. And, right now, none of those who are sick in the ICU today were vaccinated. Just this morning a young healthy Adventist man in his 30s told his family goodbye. He was not vaccinated despite his father being a physician. Roger said that he will most likely not make it through the day. Pastor Randy Roberts has been in several times to anoint Adventists who are dying of COVID-19 infections. He is completely mystified as to the reason for so much resistance to the vaccines that could save so many lives...

This is quite a stretch. Are you paid by Pfizer?
You have ZERO proof that these so-called "vaccines"..."could save so many lives..."

https://twitter.com/JoeTalk...

"My husband WALKED out of the ICU in just 3 1/2 days. Fastest ICU patient in history of Cov. What we did. What to tell others. It's not "blovid"- the protocol is what is killing people in the ICU. Here is what to do and how to do it. What to demand. What treatment."
https://rumble.com/vktdpt-o...

Dr. Zelenko latest take on Delta, completely treatable
https://www.bitchute.com/vi...

It hasn't been scientifically proven that there would be any, which means that it is proven that there are none..

Know of multiple non SDA being told they will lose their job if they don't take the Vaccines, also some SDA's who didn't want it but did because they didn't want to be unemployed,

Martin Luther King Jr was accurate when he stated

"The church must be reminded that it is not the master or the servant of the state,

but rather the conscience of the state.
It must be the guide and the critic of the state,

and never its tool.

If the church does not recapture its prophetic zeal, it will become an irrelevant social club without moral or spiritual authority."

And Luther nailed it too:
"to go against conscience is neither right nor safe.
Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen."

The SDA church which Historically taught a distinct natural health based message, missed an opportunity to convert a great many people because they just went with the flow....

One argument I'm hearing for mandates is that the unvaccinated are by far the majority in the ICU's which are being over-run so that other emergencies like heart attacks and strokes and severe accidents victims have to go untreated and die. This is part of the common good/herd argument.

Let's say that's true. There's a biblical response IMO but I'm too spent at the moment to say it well but maybe someone else who's more chipper can tackle this.

Jumping in here after lurking in the comments for several weeks.... (And this is not a biblical response to this subject, but it is related).

The subject of the unvaccinated overrunning the hospitals/causing rising case rates is something I've been thinking on for several days.

1.) It's my understanding that standard protocol in counting current cases, hospitalizations, and deaths involves counting unvaccinated and PARTIALLY vaccinated all together in one lump sum as "unvaccinated". My own state's daily covid update email states: " __% of cases occurred in unvaccinated or partially vaccinated people."

2.) Also, I've read several places that these percentages nationwide are calculated by including numbers previous to when vaccinations were even available, thus skewing unvaccinated numbers higher.

3.) Our county health guru stated today that standard protocol is to count covid deaths where vaccination status is unknown, as unvaccinated.

4.) ICAN is supposedly filing a lawsuit to verify anonymous nurses' claims that they are required to count fully vaccinated deaths as unvaccinated if the deceased had not yet reached two weeks after their final shot.

5.) When my state was running their campaign to vaccinate a certain percentage of the population to "free" us (and simulataneously coercing citizens with a lottery entry) people only had to have one dose to count toward the statewide percentage and be entered in the lottery drawing. If partially vaccinated counted as "vaccinated" then, why not now?

If we were given the data on unvaccinated, partially vaccinated, and fully vaccinated as it relates to cases (symptomatic and asymptomatic), hospitalizations, and deaths, I think we'd have a much clearer picture.

If you talk to docs or nurses in many of the hospitals, they will tell you the media is lying. Most of those admitted have had the shot.

Appreciated your post made alot of sense,

As they have consistently fed everyone lies, no reason to think they will change anytime soon.