Thanks for the metric values!

While I love this site, I have a hard time buying into that the vast majority should want or need to install the Tesla home charging station. It is vastly more expensive than the NEMA 14-50 (I have someone who will do it for <$200 - my fuse box is in my garage so YMMV.) Why fork out $1,000? I'm not going to carry the cable with me anyways, it'll stay in my garage. I'll only carry the mobile connector when I know I'm going to travel further than 250 miles -- and even then that's just for backup purposes as you don't need it for supercharging.

You're absolutely right. I've only taken my mobile charger out of my garage on a road trip once in 1.5 years because I knew that the hotel we were staying at didn't have a charger. Otherwise, its pretty useless on the road.

I was under the impression the non-direct wire (NEMA14-50) charger was standard based on the info released... Is that not the case?

https://www.tesla.com/presskit

Standard Accessories
240 volt NEMA 14-50 adapter
120 volt NEMA 5-15 adapter
J1772 public charging adapter
20 foot mobile connector with storage bag

Charger is internal to the car (this is not the case with most EV's)
Connector (Mobile Connector) is basically the wire that Tesla provides
Adapters goes onto the connector to let you plug into different types of outlets.
NEMA 14-50 is a type of outlet, similar to the one your oven or dryer might use. An electrician can install this outlet for you wherever you want to charge. You can then use the provided NEMA 14-50 adapter, on the provided Mobile Connector to charge your car. You could alternatively use the NEMA 5-15 adapter and plug into a normal 3 prong outlet, but you will charge much slower.

All common EV Cars have an Onboard charger (OBC). The slowest is a 3.3kw charger which can charge at 3.3kw/ hour. The Bolt has a 7.2kw OBC. Model 3 has a10+kw obc.

Model 3 Standard is 7.7kw on board charger, Long Range is 9.6kw on board charger.

Where did you get that?
I'd bet on the same charger as S/X at 11 kW/48 amps.
http://insideevs.com/tesla-...

I just multiplied 240 volts x 32 amps = 7.68 kw and 240 volts x 40 amps = 9.6 kw. It's not completely accurate as it is VA and not KW, but it's a good enough approximation for now.

Your calculations are correct and for the matter of this application, VA and kW are equivalent.
But where did you get that the standard was limited to 32 amps and the long range to 40? That does not make much sense as it is wayyyyy below what either battery can handle and would add complexity to the manufacturing chain. It would be much easier to have one charger for both options.

It's mentioned in the article.

True that. Well, if this accurate I'm disappointed. Doesn't make much technical sense to me...

Would it be triphase corrent? 400 V x 32 A = 12,8 kW, and long range 400 V x 40 A = 16 kW.
Here all public Mennekes plug is 22 kW...
I'm confused if TM3 only have 9,6 kW AC OBC...

No it's not 400V x3, it's 240V x 3 phase x 32 amps. Each phase is 240V relative to neutral, but 400V relative to each other (waves that are un-synchronized). Each phase has an AC-DC converter between phase and neutral so it is effectively 3x 240V and not 3 x 400V. I hope this is somehow clear!

I'm in Switzerland and exactly most charging points are either 11 or 22 kW (16 or 32 amps), which is standard for Europe.

In the US (and CAN) there's only one phase so they must have high amps to get a decent amount of energy in. Although disappointed right now, I would not be surprised if the European charger (which anyways will need the Mennekes connector by law) will be more powerful than the american version. Even if they keep 32 amps, just being 3-phase would already mean 22 kW, which would be great and flexible. Even 11 kW would already be something.

Nope, 3-phase 240V Tesla wall-box for example only supports Tesla vehicles charging at maximum 8.5kW (32A would give 13.3kW)

20A * SQRT(3) * 240V = 8.4 kW

If the Tesla wall-connector is placed on a 400V circuit, it supports up to 22kW effect (32A * SQRT(3) * 400V = 22.1 kW)
*but* you need the old Tesla's with dual chargers to able to draw 22kW.
- newer Teslas support 16A (11kW) standard, and 20/25A (13/17kW) on optional high-effect chargers.

ref:
https://www.tesla.com/sites...

- sorry for referance in Norwegian, but you should easily be able to find localised documents for your language at Tesla.com.

Ok well I'm no electrician, I thought I understood this but you make me doubt now!! While researching, it looks like 400 SQRT(3) is actually exactly the same as 220 *3, as the voltage in mainland europe is 220 and not 240. I'm confused.

And yes my "old" 85 with dual chagers takes the full 22kW and that's very convenient when no other stations are at hand and actually not that much slower than with ChaDeMo, as the "50 kW" figure is actually 125A x 400V, and my battery pack reaches 400V only at like 90% so I'm ALWAYS below 50 kW and around 35 kW when empty... quite annoying really.

I think actually the European standard is 230V +/- 10V, so minumum 220V, maximum 240V to be within the standard.
But most eelctric equipment also accepts voltage a bit outside of this range.

In Europe, the Tesla S/X standard chargers are now 16A / 11kW if you have 3-phase available.
You have to pay extra for the 20A / 16.5kW charger (option when buying car).

My guess is that exactly the same setup will be the Model 3 options as well.

Actually i just checked again and all new Model S/X now ship standard with the 16.5 kW charger option enabled. That's the explanation for not having it on the Design Studio page anymore.
For Facelift cars with the single charger at 11 kW you'Re right they need to activate the option to get to 16.5 kW but it's only a software lock...
I do hope it's the same for Model 3, it would be great for 50-55kWh "standard" range to be able to fill up completely from standard public stations in 3h roughly!

Nice, hopefully 16.5kW will be standard for Model 3 also then :-)
- I have one reserved :-)

Thanks. Makes sense the 3 ACDC converters. I hope will be 22 kW.
Regards

3-phase 400V * 32A = SQRT(3) * 400 * 32 = 22kW

European Tesla on-board chargers can charge at either 16A (standard) or 20A (high capacity), meaning 11kW or 16.5KW effect

"On-board" chargers, I assume is referring to the kit you put in your socket when visiting friends with a standard socket? If you get a wall mounted unit got home, 22kW is theoretically possible. Though most houses might not supply that. Any idea if the kitchen's 400V can be utilized as single phase for the car, or need 3-phase with 400v? Building a new house, thought of making it Tesla compatible :)

No, I mean the AC/DC conversion kit/charger that is built into your car.

If you plug your car into a 22kW wall connector, the wall connector electronics and car starts to communicate, and finds the highest possible rate they both support, and then starts charging at that rate. E.g. a new Tesla then starts drawing 11 or 16.5kW from a 22kW wall socket.

The portable kit that you mention is just a replacement electronics kit for a wall mounted car charger. But this kit typically tells the car that you can charge at e.g. 2 kW instead - so that thesocket is not overloaded.

There is not such thing as a single-phase 400V plug. 400V is only achieved on 3-phase setups, and the difference between each of these phases are 230V, so your kitchens's 400V plug is either 400V 3-phase or it simply utilises the 230V difference between two phases to make a 1-Phase 230V setup.

Our kitchen is specified as 400V without further details, so sounds ideal - no idea yet of the ampere for the kitchen's 400V.

It appears that if 16.5kW is maximum, then no point of having a socket capable of supplying more power.

However, I see that Tesla wall unit specifications can reach higher, but that the car seemingly cannot utilize it. I assume super chargers use different technology, as the car obviously can receive more than 16.5kW at such a station.

https://www.tesla.com/sites...

Superchargers supply the cars battery directly with DC power (all batteries are DC). Expensive AC to DC converter equipment is installed at these locations.

At home you have AC power, and then you have to use the cars built-in AC/DC converter. This converter supports max 16.5kW.

Thanks. Let's hope Tesla wall mount one day may include AC/DC for direct DC power - for faster charging than 16.5kW.

Otherwise the current wall mount sounds a bit like a glorified socket. Superchargers can do 120kW per car if I understand correctly :)

Basically, there's no point in doing that, since the AC/DC equipment is expensive, and it's already included in the car.

Even if you have the most modern grid connection in Europe/Norway, you have a 63A, 3-ph, 400V intake to your home - and direct *all* it's electricity to your car, ,you would only charge at 43.5kW.

- Then your car would be filled to 100% in ~2 hours anyway. There's really no need for filling the car in less than 12 hours, since most cars are parked at least 12h per day anyway....

Agreed. Then again, the standard model hasn't entered production yet. It's entirely possible that they may make minor tweaks, like upgrading the charger, between now and release. They've done similar things in the past with the Model S and X.

I agree that it is strange, I think it is more likely that they are under quoting the figures and that is the rate available at reasonably high SOC.

You can charge the LR with a higher current since there is more battery cells in the pack. The way Lithium batteries charge is like a ramp up, then it tapers off as it gets to the top. Yes disapointing that the SR charges slower, but its probably at the sake for cost and also longer warranty on the battery cells

Your argument is correct for high current dc charging, I'm referring to the Ac onboard charger which is far far below the power that the batteries can take, both long and standard/short range.
I also understand that this charger is basically dead weight when driving and there's probably a middle ground to reach regarding its size, but it seems silly to me to have this vary between two battery sizes.

I thought I saw it mentioned at the handover event on Friday? I'll check.... found these numbers in an article on insideevs: http://insideevs.com/tesla-... (sorry about that Fred!) Oh, here's the Electrek article: https://electrek.co/2017/08...

Indeed... well I'm looking forwards to confirmation but that's from my point of view an unnecessary limitation.

Hi OBC specs are on the Tesla Web site press kit. Standard range is 32A and Long range is 40A. https://www.tesla.com/en_CA...

Thanks for the link. Still does not make sense to me but hey, me be no Musk.

I just hope the European version has 3-phase 11-16kW charger.

Bolt = 7.7kWh charger

kW please.
And yes that power makes no sense in a 60kWh battery. 11 would be a minimum and 22 would be normal

For most people a 7kW charger is just fine for a 60kWh (or even 100kWh) battery.
- you still get a full battery every morning....

At home yes.
But if you go to a hotel in a remote location for one night, reach there with 10% with a 60+ kWh battery , let alone 100kWh, you would appreciate a bit more juice if the charging station is already busy for example and you can only connect at midnight.
It’s like having a car running on tap water but saying you can only fill it on the tap, not in the big water hose.
This 7kW limit is guided by the house electric code and not by real life.
I would say that you should be able to fill you car (up to 100kWh) from 0 to 80% in 12 h at home, 4h on public AC charging, 30min on DC charging. Size your batteries and chargers in accordance.

Even at 7kW:
- 8 hours would give you 56kWh (would drive you ~200 miles)
- 12h would give you 84kWh (would drive you ~300 miles)

So you really need to look hard to find edge cases where 7kW is not enough!

If you have time, yes of course.

But cars will be shared and not be able to sit 90% of the time parked as they do now.

I’m sharing my car now and appreciate that if I have one hour between two bookings , I can go to a local AC public station and charge the most I can in an hour to reach my promised 50% SoC when the new guy comes in.

That would be impossible with 7kW.

Yes, but then you are changing topics - we were talking about overnight charging at a hotel, weren't we?

And, as I said - you can *always* find edge cases where you would need higher charging speeds. This also applies to supercharging, in some cases even those speeds are inconveniently slow. But the average car stays parked 90% of the time, and utilising even one third of this time for very slow trickle charging covers most usage patterns!

But if we change topics to the car sharing scenario, we would come to a setting where the car operates a much higher percentage of the day.
In this scenario multiple people would utilise the car during the day for multiple trips/errands. Then it will eventually be plenty of opportunity to supercharge at the new urban superchargers between trips or at malls etc. The only problem being that generated revenue would be a bit lower on your car. But you are right that 22kW, 16.5kW or even 11kW would make this kind of usage pattern way easier to support than a mere 7kW.
- That said, you can drive the M3 160 miles before dipping below 50%, so in most non-edge cases you would be fine charging only at home during night anyway.

You're right, I'm changing topics! On an "old" post whose comments only the two of us will probably ever read again!

My point is: charging up an electric car is not like filling up a gas car: you don't wait until it's super low and charge it full top. You can and should charge it whenever you can and whenever it's parked. Not everyone have a garage and charge at home (myself included). So when the time comes where you can charge anywhere you can park because all parking spots have a slow but working electrical connection, then 7kW will actually be too much. Until then, we need all the power we can because L2-AC chargers are much more prevalent than still-rather-slow fast-charging DC stations.

If your car artificially limits the benefit that these short charging stops have but being basically useless, it's adding an unnecessary barrier to the acceptability of electric vehicles in general. We don't need that for early adopter cars, like the Bolt. It would be understandable when all cars are electric and war on price starts again.

You do have a point to a certain degree, but experience will create confidence in what you can do wrt your car usage.

I, for example have a 70k mileage on my 84-mile Leaf, translating into a daily mileage of ~100 miles. I have the 6.6kW dual charger but 99% of the time I only have access to 3.3kW charge speed.

As you say, as long as you can charge where you regularly park your car, you are home free wrt range and charging - without needing fast or semi-fast charging. I can slow-charge at home and at work. Faster charging really is unnecessary for me, but occationally it would of course be nice to have faster charging at malls, restaurants or other places you spend 2+ hours. If you spend less time somewhere the hassle is too high vs the benefit of adding power to your battery.

Noted, thanks.

The charger is in the car. So of course it's standard. I'm talking about the cost of the installation of the 240 volt NEMA 14-50 electrical outlet.

Am I understanding that the only actual plug-in charging device it comes with is the mobile connector? What if I plug that in with the 14-50, does that increase the output to significantly more than the standard 5mi/hr?

Not 100% sure i understand your question but if you have a SR version at 32A, you can use the 14-50 outlet/plug combo since the wire is "rated" at 50A. Your car will only draw up to 32A. You can always use larger wire

Yes, the article stated that the nema 14-50 outlet will triple the charge rate compared to a standard outlet.