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This is an excellent take down Harry. You have wrestled faith into the dust where it belongs. I hope this get as wide of a reading as possible.
Debunking Christianity has now (thanks to you and your tireless Blogging) reached a point to where we can now Kill Two Birds with One Stone. The Bible’s house of theological dominos is like a snake: You cut off its head (the Old Testament) and the body (Biblical Christianity) will die.
On Facebook "No CrossNoCrescent" said of this post:
"Incidentally John, it is bad news for Muslims too. The story is plagiarized in the Koran."
That's four religions in one, since we must include Orthodox Judaism.
Oddly, there is nothing in the Bible which would condemn anyone from drawing the same conclusions I did in this post. Without the worship of other gods (required) or belief in and following of Biblical demons and Satan (required), the threats of the Bible are left little more than that of a harmless fruit eater.
Harry, it is very interesting that you reference William Dever. As it happens Dever is not a "minimalist" by any stretch of imagination; while he may have doubts about Exodus and Joshua, he is a firmer believer in existence of historical David and Solomon. Hector Avalos nicely destroys his case in "the End of Biblical Studies".
You're an idiot. This does nothing to debunk Christianity. All its doing is confirming that biblical scholars see the exodus as theological not historical.
" exodus as theological not historical"
Good work. Recognizing this is a small step...but an important one. Next, work out that there was no talking snake in Eden and that no god advocated slaughtering livestock and Canaanites. Then move on to realizing one cannot redeem one's self by believing a god sacrificed himself to himself in some sort of primitive substitutionary sacrifice ritual where someone else pays for wrongs committed against one's fellow man. Then you're free.
"Good work. Recognizing this is a small step."
You assume too much. I understand theology & philosophy very well thanks. I am also not someone who has blinded faith or some YEC.
Again. A complete ignorance.
Grab a study bible and learn some theology. You can't read it like some scientific text book. The snake represented death and evil when the text was written. Oh the joys of hermeneutical principles - Ponder on that.
Next the Canaanites - their despicable behavior went of for over 400 years before anything was done about it. The picture changes upon deeper analysis to which I don't want to go into it because it takes a lot of explaining. So I suggest you should research that further too because all you're doing is appealing to rhetoric.
If you're spiritually and/or philosophically bankrupt then you will never understand the bible. So making such naive comments brings one to absurdity.
Having said that the very fact you are making a moral judgment raises even more questions. Do you really want to go into the objective moral duties and values argument.
Just like the lost tribes of Israel sailing to the New World and forming civilizations there is "theological not historical"? Or do you, as a non-Mormon, describe Joseph Smith's story with a different word, like "false" "make-believe," "fictitious," "lie," etc. rather than "theological?"
Could you remind us what Jesus said about the Exodus? I'm not debating that it's in the Bible, I'm just forgetting, for the moment, where.
One word: Moses!
Here is one reference:
John 6:30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'”
32 "Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven."
also this reference
"Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven." (Jn 6:49—51).
Isn't the manna in Numbers? Edit: Ah, it is in Exodus 16 too.
You all are lying atheists, inspired by Satan to invent falsehoods about our holey book to tempt us from the true faith and salvation! You will all go to Hell!!!!Even an atheist (X-catlicker) can think up BS arguments against this, these people as a whole will never give in to anything.we can say or show. But as we have seen excellent articles like this one can chip away at their foundations and little by little we gain in numbers. Keep up the really great posts.
Satan much like your god and the thousands of other gods doesn't exist. And the word is Holy. Spend more time in school and less in the church. You'll have a much better life. And your numbers are dwindling rapidly as more people get educated and realize the truth.
1) you should know irony when you read it.2) it is holey as in full of holes.3) it says X-catlick!4) I will not tell you how to read as atheist don't need no in fightin'.
So you respond to a factual post by calling all atheists "liars" and "inspired by satan". None of us believe in the bible, and yet, somehow we're inspired by a character we consider fictional. Simultaneously, because we seek the truth and don't believe what we read at face value, we are liars trying to deceive christians. Lastly, "you will all go to hell". Did you forget that we don't believe in that?
Your sarcasm detector is on the fritz.
Thanks John, an excellent summary.
Just heads-up there's a new book coming out this fall arguing for the Exodus as fact. One of the authors has also written books on the such "serious" topics as the Nephilim and reptillians... http://intrepidmag.com/the-...
Is that the "Dr. John R. Ward" who is a "professional dowser"? http://eg.linkedin.com/pub/... Does anyone have something on this guy's actual academic credentials? I can't find anything.
I couldn't find anything either. Seems odd that it would be difficult to find an academic's credentials.
The Exodus is lunacy
There are 10 plagues that nobody writes about, not even Egypt's rivals.The Egyptian military is wiped out and the pharaoh is killed (!!!) and nobody writes about it, not even Egypt's rivals.
A number of slaves goes from 70 to over 2 million in 400 years, they all escape, nobody writes about it.A population equivalent to the height of Egypt's population gallivants around "the wilderness" for 4 decadesand doesn't leave a single artifact in the desert, possibly the finest place for artifacts to be left.
That just makes it even more miraculous! ha ha
Not a single chariot, piece of armor, or sword/spear has been located in the supposedly parted Red Sea. If Ramses army is swallowed up, there would be some evidence of a destroyed army. There is no such evidence that I know of.
It wasn't just Israelites. It was also a "mixed multitude" (odd, did the slaves own their own slaves?) and their livestock.Every time you turn around, 20,000 bulls getting killed, 100,000 lambs and sheep, etc are getting killed in some showboat religious ceremony. These people clearly haven't been on a farm. They have no conception of the difficulty in the 21st century just to take care of say, 250 head of cattle, much less hundreds of thousands of livestock just merely so that you can burn them up to an imaginary friend. I think there is one point where 150,000 firstborn lambs are killed. So what about the sheep and goats to make them? Or all the lambs that weren't firstborn? Is it really conceivable to think 2 to 3 million people could have cared for hundreds of thousands of sheep, or even millions of them, in a desert for 40 years just to sacrifice them? To say nothing about all the hundreds of thousands of bulls that were routinely killed in the OT.
Bravo again Harry! How the hell do you read all this stuff? Don't you have a full time job? Many other posters have pointed out that the numbers of Exodus point out the absurdity of the entire enterprise. The so called "Passover" story is psychotic and totally immoral and just shows Yahweh to be a crazed psycho form the imagination of some priest. Since Jesus is the "true passover" and there was no passover the entire thing falls apart!
This post was compiled over many years. John suggested I post it. According to the DC stats, it has gottenalmost 3,500 hits in less than 2 days!
Harry, I saw that! Great news.
HarryThe evidence, or more properly the lack of it, has simply blown away any credibility of the biblical narrative as anything more than mythos strung together with fables. you OP brings together the closing chapters of the exposure of the Exodus fantasy.
Christians have been double crossed by cross eyed priests but I think deep down they realize they are holding onto error. Here is a song that makes a lot more sense from an atheistic perspective
DON'T BUILD YOUR HOUSE ON THE SANDY LANDDon't build your house on the shorebits might look kind of nice but you'll have to build it twiceYes you'll have to build your house once more ( on reality )
You'd better build your house on evolutionTo the origins of life it is our best solutionFiction may come and goBut science can make your brain glow.
DON'T BUILD YOUR HOUSE ON THE SANDY LANDDon't build your life on bible fictionbits might look kind of nice but could fill your head with liceUnless you read John Loftus' books in addition
You'd better read Jerry Coyne's book on evolutionTo the reasons WHY? it is a great solutionFiction may come and goBut peace from atheism you can know
See YT/watch?v=--4relah_Ow, Carine Donze channel.
For those who don't have the time to read the scholarly works by Harry, I have provided a link to material by one of the greatest freethinkers in history Hermann Samuel Reimarus and his take down of the flight of the Israel from "Pharaoh" ( not named.....) and the utter Alice in Wonderland quality of the story. Reimarus concludes with this: "These two examinations ofalleged miracles suffice then for us to judge that the others too are inventedby the human brain, and neither happened in fact nor provide evidence ofanything divine."
Amen and Amen!
Thanks for the link to Reimarus on the parting of the Red Sea. I'd only read his bit on Jesus and the apostles before. I detect one pretty major flaw in Reimarus' reading of Exodus 14. He says "Since the east wind blew all night in order to make the sea dry, it can certainly not have become dry before midnight." But Exodus 14:21-22 says "The Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground." It does not sound to me like it is saying that the wind blew all night and THEN the sea went dry. It sounds like it is saying the wind blew all night to keep the sea dry all night by dividing the sea into two walls of water just like it was interpreted in the Charlton Heston movie. He is imagining a sort of build-up that is certainly not indicating in the text. It undermines his argument that is all about timing.
Thanks for your feedback. How about detecting the flaws in the story of the Exodus. Wind blowing all night or for many nights would not be sufficient to make this trip possible. Reimarus also says correctly, that the bottom of the Sea would still be impossible to traverse because of debris and mud and what not. This magic wind of Yahweh would not dry up the muck at the bottom or displace any rocks or other obstacles like coral formations. Of course if you are a Xian all things are possible with the magical Yahweh but there is no evidence that any of this ever happened. And of course Reimarus points out that the number of people, livestock etc, etc make the story even more ridiculous! Sorry, the entire thing is a made up and impossible story. All you have to do is think about it! Pretend this story in the Book of Mormon instead of the Book of Exodus. Would you believe it then?!
This post is a major snore.
Why? If the Old Testament is phony then why believe in an Old Testament based religion?
None of the assertions above prove the Old Testament to be "phony."
Christians have been snoring now for 2,000 years because lies just don’t happen!
(Below we have Jesus talking about very urgent events coming within a generation!)
But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
“Truly I say to you, this generation will not (οὐ μὴ = never ever) pass away (παρέλθῃ = will have passed) untilall (πάντα = everyone of the above) these things (ταῦτα) take place (γένηται). 35“Heaven and earth will pass away (παρελεύσεται), but My words (λόγοι) will not (οὐ μὴ = never ever) pass away (παρέλθωσιν).
Since this promise by Jesus is in all 3 Synoptic Gospels, then it was very important! Sadly it was just another lie by Jesus, who (if he was Pinocchio) could have pole vaulted over the Jordan River with his nose.
Even the late Christians and Jews knew Jesus was a lair (“Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 2 Peter 3: 4)
When I clicked on this link I thought it was going to be an attempt to prove from some statement in Exodus that Jesus was a fraud. But its just some lame attempt to use what some lame-brained scholars have asserted about archeology to claim Exodus is the fraud. Its lame.
What I don't understand is how Egypt is dispensed with after the Red Sea crossing. Egypt basically owned the whole area and had military outposts everywhere. Moses & Co. would have been running into Egyptians at every turn.
I totally agree, GREAT BLOG!!! As a side note, I love the fact that during this "world wide flood" Many cultures have records of their existence. What happened, did Yahweh for get to inform them?? lmao.
Why doesn't this mention that there isn't a lick of independent evidence that Egypt kept Jewish slaves at all? That seems like the biggest knock out to me.
Wait, nevermind. It's there. Ha. Good show!
Harry, Let me add my accolades to those that have gone before. I have copied this post to send to a few of my Pastor friends. I love to tweak them from time to time. I have also enjoyed The Bible Unearthed series as well. Stay well my friend.
Hmmmm no evidence of settlements when they were wandering, shocking.
Why is it impossible for the Israelites to have gained freedom at the apex of Egyptian power?So about the same time that we're finding archeological evidence for the settlements of the Israelites in Canaan we find that an Egyptian pharaoh has claimed to have eradicated them. Egypt was a great if not THE great power at the time and yet they'd been beaten by the relatively weak Israelites, it saves face to claim that you eradicated them.So the Hebrews didn't pick up any Egyptian culture, considering how obedient they were to their God that's not surprising, especially considering He told them to remain as independent as possible.
So there's no evidence remaining of an occupation or the cities Joshua conquers, maybe because it was eliminated, or maybe because they didn't occupy in the traditional sense.
So according to you, the lack of evidence supporting the biblical account is somehow evidence for it? Yeah that makes sense.
That's not at all what I said but sure believe what you want.
With entirely NO textual evidence for the Bible before 200 BCE, you're sounding like a Mormon defending the Book of Mormon!
That's earlier than a lot of stuff that's taken as "fact" but the left wing extremist atheistic crowd
So either my post did not get put on here properly or you erased it. What are you afraid of? The truth.This is not a debunk sorry to say. There have been discoveries in Egypt around Tell ed-Daba and Kahun that reveal 65 percent of the graves were that of infants consist with the slaughter of Hebrew infants. Sesotstris 1 of the 12th dynasty had a powerful vizier named Mentuhotep and held authority "like the declaration of the king's power" (ashton and down unwrapping the pharohs 83) Compare Mentuhotep with Joseph in Genesis 41:40-43. Ameni a provincial governor under Sesostirs 1 had this on his tomb, "No one was unhappy in my days, not even in the years of famine, for I had tilled all the fields of the Nome of Mah up to its southern and northern borders." Could he be referring to the great famine fortold by pharohs dream and interpreted by Joseph? The late 12th dynast under Sesostris 3 revels evidence of Israelite slavery. He built cities in the delta region and the building block of choice was mud and straw brick. A large semitic population lived in the area of Kahun and Gurob during the later half of the 12th dynasty. Josephus describes a childless daughter of pharoh Amenemhet 3 as finding a child in the river and adopting him (Rohl, Pharohs and Kings:A Biblical quest 275-276). And there is more in the New Answers Book 2 pages 245-263. The archeological evidence is there for anyone who wants to look. But I am sure no one here will look.
And as to those of you who keeping saying that there is no contradiction or no problem because it is all theology only not history then just stop believing or admitting you believe will you. You are not pushing anything but foolishness. If Christ did not really exist or the Exodus did not really happen or the earth was not really created with a real adam and eve then our faith is worthless. But the Bible tells us that the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. Those who profess themselves to be wise are fools. I know none here will truly take me seriously although I would hope some might. But if the snake was just a representation of evil then evil for who, some dumb cave man? There had to be a real snake and real eve in a real garden or it makes the introduction of sin in the world void ad as some one said cut off the old testament and finish the bible. You who profess to believe but then compromise make me sick because you aren't willing to stand up for your faith. You can't have it both ways. As Joshua said, choose this day whom you will serve, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.