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Marcel Chuo • 6 years ago

I really enjoyed this piece Wendy. The part about bad money driving out good money hit really close to home. I don't want to spend crypto because it has more solid Economics backing it, it's easy to use and transaction the fees are so much cheaper (good money) so I end up hoarding it. Instead I spend fiat because its always end up worth less the day after.

David Girdharry • 6 years ago

A beacon of Bitcoin clarity, helping navigate through a thick blanket of FUD. I already can't wait til next weekends installment.

Marten Chuzzelwit • 6 years ago

Your lucid writing is a delight to read.

milmacrs • 6 years ago

Nice move! Let's spread the word!

Jones Nketiah • 6 years ago

Please what are differences between currency and money?
I need help pls.

Brad R • 6 years ago

I'm not an economist, but when I use the terms, I mean them this way: "Currency" is a medium of exchange, used when you buy or sell goods and services. "Money" is a store of value, that you might keep under your mattress or in a vault.

For example: gold is a very good money -- it holds its value well -- but a poor currency, because it's not usable for small transactions, and awkward for larger transactions that aren't whole ounces of gold. Paper U.S. dollars are a good currency -- widely accepted, and available in useful denominations -- but a poor money, because they lose value every year.

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

The words you were looking for are money and investment. Google 'bitcoin velocity chart'.

Brad R • 6 years ago

No, sorry, "money" is not investment. Neither is "currency." Investment is a different thing. If you want to be helpful, you could address Jones Nketiah's question directly rather than confusing the issue. But somehow I suspect being helpful is not your goal.

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

Money OR investment. You clearly did not checked the chart...
This is exactly what the problem is with this community: they think bitcoin can be money and investment at the same time. And not willing to understand simple facts.
An asset is either money OR investment. It is not an opinion, its a fact.

Brad R • 6 years ago

So what is the difference between "money" and "currency"?

Crypto Hunter • 6 years ago

money - specialy made of metal or paper fixed price object to exchange and buy, currency - any contractual object to estimate value (money, shells, oil, bitcoin for example).

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

Currency is a nation's official money. Since 1971 money is not a store of value.

Brad R • 6 years ago

So, if I understand your reply correctly, both currency and money are simply a medium of exchange -- not a store of value -- but the term "currency" refers to a nation's official money, and the term "money" refers to both official and unofficial? In which case the U.S. dollar is both currency and money, but Bitcoin is money but not currency. Is that an accurate restatement of your definitions?

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

I think so.
However, many things can be used as money, if you google the "bitcoin velocity chart" you'll see and understand that bitcoin is not really used as money. It is an investment now. It is because its fixed supply.
Also look up gresham's law. It means that a widely used money needs to be a little inflationary. I would be happy if anyone could argue this fact.

Brad R • 6 years ago

Actually Gresham's law, applied in this context, says that people will tend to save deflationary or non-inflating money, and spend inflationary money, if they have both. It does not say that a widely used money needs to be inflationary; it says that an inflationary money will be quickly spent. (Think Weimar Germany.)

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

Exactly.
But, as I said, it SEEMS that now widely used money needs to be inflationary. Again, if you have better solution, let me know.

Brad R • 6 years ago

That's an example of an is-ought fallacy. Just because now widely used money is inflationary, doesn't mean that widely used money ought to be inflationary.

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

No, I wrote give me a better solution.

Brad R • 6 years ago

A better solution to a non-problem?

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

After all this, if you still dont see the problem, there is no point to continue this conversation.

DjangoCat • 6 years ago

Thanks for the theoretical backup here, Wendy. Clear and concise. Keep it coming.

B Singh Wadhra • 6 years ago

I love you for this. Simply

Brad R • 6 years ago

I like the discussion of the Regression Theorem. I have heard the objection that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. As you say, those making that objection seem to always think of material intrinsic value, such as gold or salt. The idea that services have value seems to have not to have entered the discussion until now (even as everyone says we now have a "service" economy instead of a manufacturing- or agriculture- or resource-based economy).

I have clicked through to Jeffrey Tucker's article and look forward to reading it in full.

Mr. Albeos • 6 years ago

What do you think about Bitcoin Cash wendy?

Michaela von Alençon • 6 years ago

sorry I'm not Wendy, but it's centralized like Satoshi never wanted it to be

Mr. Albeos • 6 years ago

Bitcoin Cash brings sound money to the world, fulfilling the original promise of Bitcoin as "Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash". Merchants and users are empowered with low fees and reliable confirmations. The future shines brightly with unrestricted growth, global adoption, permissionless innovation, and decentralized development. Just like Satoshi wanted it to be.

Daxx10 • 6 years ago

MvA: "... it's centralized like Satoshi never wanted it to be"

And it has three developers max.
And it's decaying.
And pumping coins benefits the pumper.

hector galindo • 6 years ago

Hi Wendy my name is Hector, I am from México and I am translating your book to spanish, I have a Youtube channel and I would love to share it to my audience, Do I have your permission?

wendymcelroy • 6 years ago

Hector...what a wonderful compliment that you want to translate my words. Thank you so much. And,Yes, you have my permission and my thanks.

Alano • 6 years ago

Wow! Excellent! You don't often find articles as interesting and well written as yours, Wendy. I very much look forward to your further analysis of bitcoin.

Satoshi Nakamoto • 6 years ago

I am still waiting for an explanation to Bitcoin Cash and the theft of my "Values".

Satoshi

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

Hi, Satoshi,
What do you think about bitcoin gold?
And deflation?
Centralisation of mining?
The scaling problem?
The rising transaction costs?
The non-sustainable electricity consumption?
The ethereum project?
Other cryptos?
Is bitcoin money or investment?
Do you want a world government?

Satoshi Nakamoto • 5 years ago

Fraud

Satoshi

generalisimo • 6 years ago

It is not theft if it is voluntary. What right or claim do you have to the subjective value of others? Yours is the same conceit of the fiat regime to assume that your values are superior to those of others.

Satoshi Nakamoto • 6 years ago

Yo creé Bitcoin y en él deposité mis pocas esperanzas...Sus monedas las llamé BTCs, y lo hice por algo. BCC, no es Bitcoin, es una tapadera de una conspiración...
Por desgracia sólo yo lo puede ver y entender y los mismos creadores de BCC..

Satoshi

sjs • 6 years ago

Currency (technically money supply) in the US is not Government issued, it's issued by the Federal reserve and therein lies the crux of the problem. The Fed is a private organisation, the 3rd of it's kind, the previous two failed. The government cannot afford to let this one fail (or be replaced) as it derives it's working capital (if you like) from this source. For a new private currency to take the place of the established monopoly you are asking no less than the collapse of the world's monetary system as the $US is also the world's reserve currency. I wish it wasn't so but this setup was concocted initially on Jekyll Island and then reinforced in 1933 and 1971 by Nixon and reinforced again by Nixon and Kissinger with the Petrodollar. If crypto actually succeeds in replacing the discredited and corrupt fiat system the consequences will be nothing short of a nuclear financial bomb detonating.

hawken fox • 6 years ago

I don't see fiat dying and have no use at all. I believe fiat will still be in circulation in the future, there will still be some common use for them. But crypto is here to keep tabs on fiat and it's masters... that's for sure. Every wrong move by the fiat master will just give crypto a boost in demand and trust.

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

They are anarchists and hippies, they don't understand this things and/or they don't care. These guys would be happy to introduce bitcoin and deflation into the world and turn the whole planet into venezuela. Not to mention that a world money is like to bring a world government, too...

Brad R • 6 years ago

Yeah, right, because that's Venezuela's problem....deflation.

</sarc>

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

:-)
No, venezuela has a political problem what caused problems in the economy. What I meant is the result: unemployment, hunger, riots, fighting with the police etc. Deflation would be worse...

Crypto Hunter • 6 years ago

One country does too much for it. And for others over the world.

Edi • 6 years ago

Bub, you keep talking about deflation as if you have clear evidence of it being so much worse than inflation, as if somehow it occurs all
by itself, could you please enlighten us all with several examples of catastrophic deflation that was not a result of the prior inflation?

PS: Just got news that Bitcoin shot to $7200 on the Zimbabwean Exchange
today....I wonder why?

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

Use some simple logic: when population grows and economy grows, money supply needs to grow too to keep the prices on the same level. This part is really simple.
"examples of catastrophic deflation that was not a result of the prior inflation" No need to. Whatever the reason of inflation, deflation is not a solution. Again, our money system is far from perfect and I am not protecting it. I just want to see how the deflationary bitcoin system would be better.
"We did not find solution to deflation in the last 5000 years. If you have one, you will win a Nobel for it." This is usually the comment I get no answer to...

Brad R • 6 years ago

So why do prices need to keep on the same level? If the economy grows and the money supply remains fixed, prices will tend to fall. As long as the money is sufficiently divisible, why is this a problem? Why does deflation need a solution?

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

Read deflation on wikipedia. Then read it again.
During the gold years (3-400 years ago and backwards), debt was not as huge as now. Nobody had a mortgage or credit card. Big companies did not existed, you bought local products only. So, deflation wasnt a big problem. Economy corrected itself or the emperor started a war (inflation). Now, with this debt level, the results of 50% falling prices/year are unimaginable. Unemployment could hit double than in 1933 easily. And bitcoin could cause 90% fall in prices (and wages) /year or more. We dont want to go there.
Erasing debt in the Fight Club way would have the same result. People would lose their pension, all their investments, total economic collapse and possible hunger riots and wars. We dont want to go there.
I can think of ways to make bitcoin inflationary even without removing the 21m cap, but that could possibly include some kind of world government and maybe a 0.01% tax on bitcoin holdings at every block mined. So, we dont want to go there either.
The traditional way to get rid of debt is inflation or hyper inflation (weimar germany). It takes its toll, but works and after that it is a fresh start. I expect rising inflation in the next years because we cant have deflation, simply because that would be MUCH worse.
Any better idea?

Brad R • 6 years ago

So your arguments seem to boil down to
(a) we have too much debt to endure a widespread deflation, and
(b) we need periodic inflation cycles to wipe out debt ("fresh start").

Re. (a), all of that massive debt is denominated in dollars (or euros or pounds or whatever), and a deflation in a different currency will not put a sudden burden on those debt-holders. No one is arguing that bitcoin is going to make the U.S. dollar deflationary. Those incurring debts in bitcoin will do so knowing that it's a deflationary currency, and will plan accordingly.

Re. (b), you seem to be arguing that periodic widespread debt default is a necessary feature of an economy. I disagree. Indeed, I'd say that incurring a debt with the expectation that at some future time it will be wiped out and you won't have to pay it, is fraudulent. I may be old-fashioned, but I think people who incur debts should pay them back.

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

"(a) we have too much debt to endure a widespread deflation" Thats correct.
"(b) we need periodic inflation cycles to wipe out debt" I did not say it was necessary. I said that is the usual solution. You know any better?
"deflation in a different currency will not put a sudden burden on those debt-holders." Correct. But we talking about bitcoin as world money. And when it is officially world money than all the debt and investments will be converted to BTC. Then we would have deflation and every entities (governments, companies, private persons) with any kind of debt are like to bankrupt.
"No one is arguing that bitcoin is going to make the U.S. dollar deflationary. You are very confused. BTC will not make USD deflationary. As far as central bankers concerned, they will do anything to keep all fiat inflationary. Literally: ANYTHING. Even starting a war is on the table.
"I may be old-fashioned, but I think people who incur debts should pay them back." I 100% agree.
I wrote down how the system works now and what the options are. I am open to any better idea. I just dont see how bitcoin would give us any solution as it is today. The 2 main problems are deflation and Gresham's law. For these reasons bitcoin is already behaving as investment not money.

Brad R • 6 years ago

"But we talking about bitcoin as world money. And when it is officially
world money than all the debt and investments will be converted to BTC."

Who is this "we"? I haven't heard anyone talking about bitcoin as "world money" (unless you mean a currency that is used, voluntarily, worldwide). No one is talking about making it "officially" world money -- who would have the power to do that? And no one is talking about converting existing debt and investments to BTC -- again, who would have the power to force that? You're setting up a series of straw men here, and arguing if all these delusional things you imagine come to happen -- how, is not said -- then the result will be horrible.

Dr. Bubó • 6 years ago

As I learned, this community has 3 main goals:
1. getting rid of all debt
2. end inflation
3. end consumerism
All this by making bitcoin world money. Now, 3th is easy because deflation will end consumerism very quickly. Which means you will not be able to buy an iphone or tablet, so bitcoin will die.
If using bitcoin is voluntary, then gresham's law would take care of it and bitcoin would disappear from the money system as gold did.
Again, I just try to understand how it could work, but like others, you never answer.

Brad R • 6 years ago

And where did you learn that? I haven't heard that this "community" has any such goals, or any goals other than establishing a cryptocurrency free of central control. If you have a link to the Protocols of the Elders of Bitcoin, please share it...I need a good laugh.