I am starting to hear from youth that they are very disillusioned. Sad.

Youth react to their environment. When all they hear are the perspectives of leaders; professors, Pastors, and parents, who espouse negatve sentiments, attitudes and opinions regarding church leadership, then it would not be surprising that they would be influenced towards dissapointment. On the other hand, I know of many youth who are not disallisioned and who view these matters through the lens of prophecy. They are hopeful, and understand that God is at the helm of his church. Most who who are not influenced one way or the other, are pretty much apathetic and don't see these things as important.

Youth have been disillusioned since Sister White's day. However, only some are. Some are an immense inspiration! They are participating in their church. We need such faithful youth!

I agree it is sad that so much time and energy has been invested in this rather peripheral issue. But I have difficulty with those who insist their non-compliance is "a matter of conscience," and then also complain that the GC is trying to enforce something that is not a Scriptural issue. If the Bible is not clear, how can it be "a matter of conscience"? Personally, I don't see a huge problem with ordaining anyone who has demonstrated clearly that God has called them to what they are doing in His work. But since the world church is not comfortable with that, it seems the right thing for us in NAD to do is cheerfully accept the verdict and simply move forward in compliance with the body.

Word!

Well said. We have "reasoned together" enough. Let's continue with God's mission and move forward.

Amen! Maranatha!!

The Bible is quite clear.
It's a play on semantics. To those who use an expression as
"a matter of conscience"
is like saying,
"It's all relative."
(i.e. each individual is allowed to interpret what they want and hold steadfast to that thought [no matter what the Bible says].)

Thank you!

Congratulations to the CG. It was about time to do something like this.

Since when has force, manipulation and coercion been a part of God's Kingdom?What about "come let us reason together saith the Lord" ? This is not the way to unity but to division. Unity is not uniformity otherwise only the circumcised ethnic Jews could be saved and Gentiles would be lost. The majority in many instances in the Bible has been wrong...what about that is comforting in this case?

Read Acts 15, the church accepted the council and followed it.

Yes because it was consistent with the principals of God's eternal Kingdom. We are in agreement here. No force, no manipulation, no coercion to enforce the results of the vote. "It seemed good to them" and I could go on but I think you get the point.

We can only pray, God is in charge and He will prevail.

Yes we must pray for an out pouring of the holy spirit.

I ALWAYS READ AND HERD THAT IN SOME PLACES THE WHOLE CONFERENCE , DIVISION AND UNION WILL BE LOST. -- ALSO , IN SOME CHURCHES ONLY A FEW WILL BE SELECTED. -- AND ALWAYS ASK , LORD HOW THAT CAN BE ? - NOW, I UNDERSTAND JUST A LITTLE WHAT CHRIST SAID " MANY SHALL BE CALL , BUT, VERY LITTLE SHALL BE ELECTED ".--- ALSO , " IT IS NOT ALL WHO SAID LORD , LORD SHALL ENTER THE HEAVENLY GATE ".--- I ALSO UNDERSTAND WHY ONLY 120 PEOPLE IN THE UPPER ROOM RECEIVED THE EARLY RAIN .--- THE LATTER RAIN WILL BE EXACTLY THE SAME .--- NOW , I REMEMBER THE COUNSEL OF GOD " LET THEM ALL GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST TIME " --- THE SPIRITUAL SHAKING ALREADY TOOK PLACE AND WILL CONTINUE UNTIL THE MIGHTY AND FINAL PHYSICAL SHAKING TAKE PLACE AT THE SUNDAY LAW .--- AT THE SUNDAY LAW , NO ONE WILL HAVE TO VOTE AGAINST ANY BODY , THEY WILL JUST LEAVE IN THEIR OWN.--- THIS WILL BE SO EASY , BUT, A LITTLE VERY DRAMATIC . IT IS WRITTEN , " THE CHURCH WILL APPEAR TO FALL , BUT , IT SHALL NOT FALL ".--- ALL ARE A LITTLE MORE CLEAR TO ME NOW !!! -- MAY GOD HELP US ALL FOR THE SELECTION OF THE 144000 IS A VERY NARROW ONE .---- MARANATHA .

Amen

Dear brother Legault! In love I ask you: How was the consensus in Jerusalem expressed/visible if no vote was taken? Members need to have some way to express their position in favor or against something...

It was consensus, not a simple-majority or even a super-majority vote. They were all in agreement. When the Holy Spirit was poured out they were all in one accord. How can we talk about mission until we all agree? Anything short of consensus does not receive the blessing of the Holy Spirit. He is not the God of only the simple-majority.

The issue of there being "consensus" at the Jerusalem Council isn't quite the way it appears. Check out Acts of the Apostles, pp. 196, 197. Though there was initially a consensus at the Jerusalem Council, it did not go unchallenged. "Not all, however, were pleased with the decision; there was a faction of ambitious and self-confident brethren who disagreed with it. These men assumed to engage in the work on their own responsibility. They indulged in much murmuring and faultfinding, proposing new plans and seeking to pull down the work of the men whom God had ordained to teach the gospel message. From the first the church has had such obstacles to meet and ever will have till the close of time." AA, pp.196, 197 Conversations and dialogue could be endless. Responsible steps of accountability need to be taken or else voting is meaningless.

Thank you sis, folks need to READ the entire chapter.

Yes! It is always best to read a quote in context.

You are right. There will be a time when we see "eye to eye". Sound fantastic? Unbelievable? IN addition to the experience of Acts 2 that you referred to, God, through His servant Ellen, made such a promise if we are willing to meet the conditions. I want to meet those conditions. "God's people are to be so earnest and faithful in their work for Him that all selfishness will be separated from their lives. His workers will then see eye to eye, and the arm of the Lord, the power of which was seen in the life of Christ, will be revealed. Confidence will be restored, and there will be unity in the churches throughout our ranks." 9T, p.33

Nice quote. This will probably occur once no one in the church receives a substantial salary from it. Can't serve God and mammon both. The poorer divisions often worship in the open air or unpretentious buildings, are shepherded largely by unpaid elders and new members are attracted by word of mouth and by self-supporting literature evangelists. The NAD would be blessed if it incorporated this model.

This has occurred to me, too. I think a healthy dose of simplicity would do us NADites a lot of good. When I hear the inspirational Mission reports each week at SS, I can't help but think that we need missionaries to come from other parts of the world and show us a thing or two about faith and trust in God.

When were they all in agreement? What consensus do you refer too? Please read the writings Paul in light of the four things that was given, note that Paul only agreed with one... Yet he choose to take decision of conference because i would submit he had a major victory that day. For Paul it was a matter of conscience which you see throughout his writings.

Pentecost is an example of being in one accord. The first Jerusalrm council is an example of consensus.

We can only pray, God is in charge and He will prevail.

Prayer is the best thing we can do!

"Acts 15-like consensus" sounds like it was actually a mirage. This passage from Sister White gives insight: "Not all, however, were pleased with the decision; there was a faction of ambitious and self-confident brethren who disagreed with it. These men assumed to engage in the work on their own responsibility. They indulged in much murmuring and faultfinding, proposing new plans and seeking to pull down the work of the men whom God had ordained to teach the gospel message. From the first the church has had such obstacles to meet and ever will have till the close of time." AA, pp.196, 197

Clarification on my earlier post. I meant to say those who voted yes on the importance of compliance felt the church should maintain control for the sake of unity. I understand their concerns. On the other hand, I do not believe we can force compliance on issues that do not have clear evidence from scripture to be enforced. If we were talking about breaking one of the 10 commandments, that is one thing. If we are talking about something that has no clear support from scripture it would be far better if we were like Gamaliel who was concerned that the leaders not fight against God. I believe the gospel commission gives a mandate for all to go, all to teach, all to make disciples and all to baptize. Who is to say this is only for men? If that is the case, then we should never send out women as missionaries to preach the gospel. Years ago the church believed that only "elders" could baptize. Then we discovered the story of Phillip and decided that maybe even deacons could baptize.

Finally, if you read the decision of the Acts 15 council. You will discover that they based their decision, not on the evidence in the OT that clearly stated that circumcision was an eternal covenant for those in Israel. They followed the experience of those who were seeing wonderful success from the Holy Spirit moving upon converts to the truth. It is also interesting to note that the decision was to place LESS restrictions on the movement of God and his work, rather than more restrictions. That should be of serious concern to all of us as well.

Thank you for sharing good thoughts. As a former teacher and parent, I know the importance of appealing to the heart, not merely squelching the bad behavior. There is a heart appeal built in to the Unity Document. It's purpose is reconciliation. But it is just a tool. It isn't designed to change hearts any more than the Ten Commandments can change hearts. If individuals refuse to reconcile their resistance to the voted policy, it then becomes necessary for the organization to take appropriate action. It is not bullying or dictatorial. It is commonly accepted practice that organizations follow. The same folks who are demanding women have respect seem to feel justified in denying respect to the representatives who voted on a particular issue nearly four years ago. Cooperating with the Unity Document does not involve breaking God's law. Complying with the vote of the General Conference 2015 vote regarding ordination practice does not break any of God's laws. If policies need to be altered there are orderly, fair ways to accomplish that. Votes can even be taken again. And again. And again.

I am new to discussion board, but nevertheless, deeply concerned about the irreparable breach in our beloved church. Satan, and our enemies are so happy to see the huge division. I fear that it would never be healed. Each side of the issue as is seen by this discussion board alone, shows just how divided we are. while it is true that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, it is just as true that there has to be a final word or decision if the group is to remain a group.

The church will appear to fall, but does not fall says Sr. White. It is the church Militant rather than the church triumphant.

An illustration: My daughter let's say has an argument with her mother and ask my opinion about the matter. I ask her what did her mother say, and she says "Mom said 'No' I can't do such and such. I then tell her, "Sweetheart, what your mother said stands where I stand in this matter. I love you dearly, but if you can not or will not obey, then there's the door. I hope you will make the right choice. Your will get over your anger and pain. You may say that this illustration doesn't fit, for a child is different from a church or whole division. If my daughter understands the issue enough to disagree with her mother, than she is old enough to make a choice of compliance or face the consequences. I her dad represent in this illustration "Our Lord" the husband of the bride, his wife the church.

"Brother A, your experience in reference to leadership two years ago was for your own benefit and was highly essential to you. You had very marked, decided views in regard to individual independence and right to private judgment. These views you carry to extremes. You reason that you must have light and evidence for yourself in reference to your duty.

"I have been shown that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any one man. But when the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon the earth, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be maintained, but be surrendered."

This is a long post, but has a point.

I couldn't agree more with your thoughtful post. Your illustration is perfect! Here we are a year later (from the article above) and it appears to me that individuals are exposing their true heart by words and actions. I was cheered that though passionate speeches were made at the Annual Council for "more time" and "not judging" and other irrelevant things, the delegates faithfully voted to apply the consequences of the warning to the non-compliant Unions and Conferences. Personally, I felt the stronger reprimand was appropriate for the Union Presidents who tried to blame their constituents for their unfaithful leadership. But God will guide. There is a purpose for everything. Let us keep praying. God sets up leaders and takes them down. We must remain faithful!

Your response to my post is so encouraging and I thank you. We hurt because Christ' prayer for unity among His people is anything but fulfilled. But, in another sense it is fulfilled on a much smaller scale. Yes it hurts indeed. What will happen to our beloved church? I believe deeper polarity or even some splitting from us. Let it happen. Our Lord prophesied this, but who would have believed it would hurt so badly. May we have courage and continue to trust that One who loves His church more than we ever could knows what He is doing. Blessings to you and all.

Andre' Wilson

I concur with your thoughts. Let us remain faithful in spite of those who seek solutions outside of God's principles and counsel. At the right time, and not sooner, He will bare his strong right arm and take things into hand more than even a faithful earthly parent. He is merciful not willing that any should perish, so we can be sure He hurts over this entire debacle. But He is our heavenly coach and knows how to best get us (with His church) across the finish line!

The ones who are pushing that are using force and manipulation. This vote was not a GC group in DC, it was decide by people from all over the world. So everyone has to obey this is simple. And it should be...

So we are to accept the rule of the majority even if it is clearly wrong as a matter of personal study and conscience. I think not. "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Romans 14:5

Is it really such a matter of personal conscience that you are willing to ignore the decision of the brethren? You are favoring something that has never before been part of the church of God from the days of the apostles to now.

"when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body . . . . God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority."

Not siding one way or the other, here, as I'm still prayerfully seeking God's guidance on this matter.

However, just a thought...It can certainly be matter of personal conscience where one is faced with the choice of "ignoring the decision of the brethren" vs. submitting to the leading and conviction of the Holy Spirit laid on ones heart and mind. I believe many of those concerned with this decision feel such a conviction and see the Holy Spirit at work in uncharted territory.

This cross-roads has not caught our Redeemer by surprise! He will lead His church where it needs to go.

If you listen to the entire discussion regarding the voting of the Compliance Document, someone commented on the "conscience" matter. A conscience can be seared, uninformed, weak, etc. That is a possibility, right? Sister White says that our consciences should be "informed" by the Word of God and guided in understanding by the Holy Spirit. We cannot judge someone on that matter, but does the Spirit ever guide in such a way that it is against the Word of God?

The Holy Spirit certainly does not contradict the Word of God. Agreed. However, ordination is not actually biblical. The laying on of hands is, but where we see the laying on of hands, there was always recognition of the calling having already occurred in the life of the one on which hands were laid. Perhaps, we would be better off as a church to do away with ordination altogether and simply commission men and women alike as recognition of THE commission to which they've been called. The work of Paul began before he received the laying on of hands and Ellen White's work began long before she was ever ordained (historical church documents show her as ordained even though this was never done by the laying on of hands).

The change in the ordination process, as would be consistent with the Word of God, is certainly in order to discuss. But the ethical, orderly action at hand is to recognize the vote of the world church and follow it until such time as the method of ordination is changed for all.

You have to know, everyone is not going to agree. Ask 3 people the same question and you will get 3 different answers. If majority rules, then the majority is happy. If it doesn’t, nobody’s happy,

In matter of conscience and liberty, nobody should be dictated by others. In this case, it is obvious that the final destination of to attack and punish those who fight against the perpetuation of discrimination of women in Church.

Well, the PUC and CUC, and a couple of other entities already declared that they will continue ordaining women. At least until the Constituents change their minds and vote different. Which is not going to happen.

Ted Wilson has no authority to depose any Union or Conference President.

No he does not. He said that himself.

Lets be honest here and don't attack God's anointed, remember, this was not voted by Ted Wilson. The Holy Spirit has spoken, now turn your attention to mission, NAD is the only place where the churches are dying, why because we have lost sight of the mission. In every organization there are rules and regulations to protect the integrity of the organization, there is no coercion here, how about the black and white conference, is this biblical? Something for you to think about.

Personal opinion, of course!

It is interesting that the minority do not support the "matter of personal study and conscience" of those who voted to have the church move forward in unity regarding the practice of ordination at GC 2015.