Disqus - Latest Comments for thiteral

Re: The Theology of Spiritual Abuse in Christianity Today

thiteral — Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:32:31 -0000

I'd recommend any book written by Philip Gulley.

Re: A new name for Birdie Boy

thiteral — Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:11:57 -0000

Finn is a very cool name, it is an excellent mix of distinction and tradition, here's hoping he loves it!

Re: The Theology of Spiritual Abuse in Christianity Today

thiteral — Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:07:19 -0000

Dale,

Couldn't agree with your analysis more, and what concerns me is that our Theological Doctrines not only teach us that we are unworthy, but also teach us to judge others unworthy (especially the non-christian).

I am currently reading a book written by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland called "If Grace Is True", it brings some interesting thoughts to how we perceive Grace, and who is worthy and unworthy.

Re: Falling Through Ice

thiteral — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 17:35:33 -0000

I don't know about the "lack of faith" comment, but it certainly shows how fragile we can be. Maybe you just needed a reminder of who to call for in life!

Re: Beyond the Border: The Mystery of Mystery

thiteral — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:46:33 -0000

"We get to grow up in our knowledge too, taking in all that we are capable of. “When I became a man, I put away childish things.”"

This verse always concernes me, because I believe we take it too much in face value. Yes we should put away our chilish things, but we should never put away our childish wonder of God's creation and our purpose in it. As I've matured over the years I still try to maintain that 'childish wonder' when seeing the world thru my eyes (Much like your discription of the 'white woods').
That 'childish wonder' keeps the love of the Mystery and allows the questions that lead to maintaining our relationship with God.

I believe the Mysteries are intentional, and the questions expected...how else do we learn about the Glory of God and our relationship to it all.

Re: What exactly is this "Living with Questions"?

thiteral — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:27:38 -0000

I went to a Presbytery meeting last night, and part of the discussion was having to close a church that had been doing God's Will for over 200 years in the Suburb of Cleveland, OH. Very sad. Not only for the church but for the whole community, that has fallen on hard times, and recieved much sustainance from the church.

Those in control cannot see the cause of why churches with this kind of history fail, or they just refuse to acknowledge the causes. Minister's are concerned and point this out to the governing body, but they just smile grimely and nod.

Right after we agreed to close the church, the director of finance told us they we're raising our per Capitol .68 cents this year....I just sat there and shook my head.

On the bright side, a young lady we commissioned for ministry is studying Greek, the old Testament, and was interested in going back to the ways of the first church. She was accepted Unanimously by the elders and ministers of the church with loud applause...so not all church subjects think as their governing bodies do!

Re: What exactly is this "Living with Questions"?

thiteral — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:17:10 -0000

Very true, we are in a relationship with God, surely he would not begrudge our questions.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:35:39 -0000

I'm posting this as a new thread only because the window was getting too small on the responses. Thanks for the insight Dale and Sharna, I don't think our views are that different, just on how we achieve them. You write that 'home churching' or groups can grow into larger things, where as I have church that has evolved small groups within the church that do 'home churching'. We meet weekly, and can use a book, a thought, or even a even a program like the ones Dale and Jonalyn put together to start the thought process, and openly and honestly and respectfully debate what Jesus wants in whatever context we happen to be discussing. Many times views differ due to social/economical/spiritual backgrounds. We've had some heated discussions, but when done in love, everyone comes away feeling that God has pressed upon us the importance of all opinions on the subject, and it gives us new ways to show our undersanding and love to people outside our way of thought (does that make sense?).

It is really interesting that we both can go at the same goal, but with different views on how it should be achieved.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:53:58 -0000

I just worry about it being the only part of gathering. And if I understand what your are saying, the original church would be like the gathering for the reading of the Tora; an interesting thought. It is hard to break a mold you have used for 50 years.

Please feel free to correct me on any miss-interpretations I make.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:42:48 -0000

It's always been my understanding that each is called according to their purpose. As an elder your purpose may be the physical/financial care of the church, but your main purpose is the Christain leadership you provide to the congregation. Likewise with Deacons, there leadership is within ministry and outreach. Not all churches try to hide these rolls behind an institution, some of them still feel it is an important part of God's plan, and act accordingly.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:07:21 -0000

This may be enlightenment, (which is wonderful, wish I was part of that group) but what does it have to do with Christain concept of church, in the time of scripture, or in the present? It reminds me of the Jewish faith of reading the Tora and debating it.

I sense some inherent dangers here, that as we got too philisophical in our belief, we tend to ignore the principles of Christianity.

I'm not saying all this to make a point, I'm more to the point of trying to understand it all.

Re: What EXACTLY is "Church"? (part 2) unraveling the crisis

thiteral — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:50:04 -0000

Dale, I'm still thinking this links to our society as a whole and how we evolved over the the years both in our views of what community and the church are.

I remember when I was a child, the church was a representation of the community you lived in, rare was the person who would drive 10 or 15 miles to attend church, and church 'shopping' was practically non-existant. Frankly, anyone attending your church outside your community was welcomed but thought of oddly, as if she/he had no family (church family) to share with.

The idea of community was an important value when I was a kid, I imagine it was an even more important value in centuries past, and due to the advances in technology, the value has become less important over the years. I think this is where Pathlighter25's brutal but truthfull assesment comes into play.

In a world of technogy where you can reach more people thru the www then you can by walking down the street where you live, the community value gets lost, or at least redifined to an extreme extent. That, coupled with the 'quick fix' attitude and the craving for self gratification that we have instilled on society, gives way to the church 'prostituting' itself to satisfy the masses.

It's funny when I think about it, but the church is always trying to be all things to all people, and I think it can be done, but only thru the teachings of Jesus and the Love of God. But the church, in it's wisdom, doesn't see that.

They think big churches, with multiple curriculums, music for the masses, and something for everyone is the answer. I think the heads of the churches (nationally) encourage this because it boosts their numbers (artificially, of course) and helps bring in large amounts of loose donations (money not tithed) and it has great appeal to them.

Of course this can be extremely damaging to most churches, as in our Presbyterian Church we may have a membership of 750 people, but only 300 regularly in attendance, but the Presbytery requires us to pay Per capitol on each person on our roster - so we end up loosing money and not effectively ministering to people.
This causes the church to think of new ways to minister, to attract more people, who won't regularly attend, to make more money....and the vicious circle goes round and round. It cripples churches that are well off, and destroys churches that are poor.

I think the time is comming where the traditional church needs to be phased over into a new entity. I hate the thought of having to do this, but it's God's Will not mine, and if we truly care about that; then we must act on it.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 20:52:44 -0000

I'm still trying to figure it out myself! It could be my prejudice, but to me church (the physical building) is a place for worship ie: Praise and adoration. With mandi's lifestyle the small groups method works, but does it replace the worship part of our spiritual needs? Does it need to? Does it have to exist to constitute a "church" worship service? Is it replaceable??

You are correct to say worship can include theological discussions, but I feel it needs to be more than just that. This isn't necessarily supported by scripture, I'm just talking my perspective on church and worship.

No where in mandi's writings is praise (I agree, it does not need to be music) or worship mentioned, and I fear that there is a very thin, and dangerous line between just being spiritual & being a Christian; and it's very easy to cross and not so easy to get back on track, I've seen it happen to family and friends.

The reason I ask these questions are because the main subject of your blog is about the church as a congregational setting, not a personal faith journey, or personal spirituality.

Maybe the message is getting mixed up in my mind....

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:36:03 -0000

This has me concerned. I can totally see where you are comming from, having to travel so much; but do you believe that a theological discourse among community friends is the equivalent of worship? Do you still attend a church for this purpose? I totally love a good theological discussion, but I personally need a time during the week to praise and rejuvinate the bonds I have with God. Do you feel this is satisfied through pray? Your thoughts on this are intriguing...and I do hope you can shed some more light on how your spirituality plays out in the situation your lifestyle forces you to live.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:15:40 -0000

Now we are getting into some higher thinking, let me see if I can get my old brain to function! So you are saying that modernism is the recognition that people want to be part of the Bible story today as it applies to what is going on here and now?

I ask this because I am reading a book that talks about how the Bible is a story, with a plot, of our relationship with God, and what God has done to make that happen. Infact in part of the book he makes the statement, "Those who read the book in faith become part of the plot." and from what you state, that is what people are now looking for....to become part of the plot, instead of someone who sits and listens to the story.

mmmmmmmmmm.....a new form of our reformation???

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:14:50 -0000

It sounds to me like your church is having trouble matching talents to needs, or the talents just are not there. Do you have people with careers in finance to run the financial committee, teachers that can be part of Christian Education, you can even think outside the box on this; marketing people for fund raising events, class clown for youth week activities...the list goes on and on.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 12:06:18 -0000

Hi Everyone! I just wanted to add something here to sort of balance the equation. We can find alot of things wrong with the church, but we also have to remember that the church is not a stagnant entity, it's dynamic, and it's involvement in your life is going to be in direct correlation to your involvement in the church's life. Don't forget the people inside that church are just like you, they have their good and bad moments,their ups and downs, they all have their moments of Grace, and their moments of being 'fallen' as Dale puts it.

I don't think it's asking too much for people to be a little pro-active in visiting a church. A new person is just as capable of reaching out to an unknown congragant (sp?) as congragant is to a new visitor. Let them know why you are there; what your interests are in their church and what your likes and dislikes are.

In my church we make every effort to match new visitors/members with others who have the same interests and callings. We have many small groups then grow and attract new members this way. I visit my church often and I'm always running into people I want/need to talk to. It's not only because they have embraced me and helped me in what Christ calls me to do, but also because I have actively engaged them and work hard to make my life in the church productive and meaningfull.

We can't just look at one side of the coin....

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:17:38 -0000

I like what you wrote, but I'm interested in what boundries women should feel constrained by?

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:41:33 -0000

interesting point on 'scaring people off' I'll have to think about that one.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:47:45 -0000

"I find one of the most discouraging things on the planet is trying out a new "church" place and having to do all the reaching out and getting a lukewarm reception."

This is so true sometimes, and our church struggles to keep this from happening. We often feel that being congenial is sufficient, and that having a collegiate attitude about the congregation prevents hurt feelings, but it actually hurts more than it helps. As Christians we should always reach out with the love and passion, as Christ did with us.

We are often not earnest in greeting those we encounter in church. We are to be brothers and sisters in Christs, not buddies in Christ. I don't know about you, but I argue with my brothers all the time, but I still love them. We shouldn't be so afraid to reach out to others.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:46:39 -0000

Wow, tons of points here, should I just write a book and mail it to you?

Relational: Humungous Point

We have lost fact that the bible itself is a story about our relationship to God, and that Jesus came to cement that relationship. Not only that, but the relationship was intended to be extended unto 'all nations', and we can barely bring ourselves to say hello to the person sitting next to us in the pew.

Our church has a mission to Nicaragua every year and I chuckle to myself when we do...only because we go down there with money, and materials to help them do what they cannot afford and in return they show us how to live a true, loving relationship with God. When it comes to faith, love, and hope I'm not worthy compared to these wonderful people.

Time Constraints:

Oh Lord....don't get me started! When the minister says we'll only sing the first stanza of a hymn of worship because we are just too busy and time is running out, I want to throw a book at him/her.

Again we have a sister church in downtown Cleveland, OH that is in a very repressed part of town and filled with minorities. Their services last 2 to 2 1/2 hours. Why? Well I think it's because they don't have to rush home to soccer games and manicured lawns, shopping dates and business meetings, Their joy is in worshiping God not their possessions. (I know that's pretty rough, but alot of truth in it.)

Talent in Local Bodies:

This is a interesting and sometimes complicated area for me to discuss. I think an Elder run church can be a great value if it doesn't become a olgarchy, or a patriarchy movement (ever read Quiverfull, by Katheryn Joyce?). Our church has intentionally worked to let leadership in Spiritual life to thrive, People can give sermons, organize worship, etc.. but still few except the call, and want the pastor to dictate their actions and beliefs.

As far as pastorial-idolatry we recently (10 years ago) said goodbye to a pastor of 26 years! It was a very difficult time for the church and the next pastor; as everyone placed their values on the previous minister's work instead of looking to where God wanted us to go in our future endeavours.

We have a wonderful church that is quite intergenerational, but because of this we struggle constantly with old church values and new church ideas. We have found out that those struggles increase when we focus our lives on what the church is, and decrease when we focus on God's mission (what the church does). If we keep the focus on community mission, God's call to witness in life, and outreach....that seems to satisfy all generations.

Hope this gives answers to some of your thoughts...

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:56:36 -0000

It's great to hear someone else think like this, as a Presby I believe in the 'reformed, and always reforming' philosophy. People thought Jesus was a radical, and he was right, people that Luther was crazy when he nailed his letter to the church. Maybe this is God letting us know it's time to reform, and the greater church is just too resistant to the message.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:35:10 -0000

Great comments, and alotof truth in all of them. as an active Elder, and church member our church has had this discussion over and over again, and now that we are in the midst of another pastor search (nothing wrong, just a new calling for our previous minister) we will go thru the conversation again.

One thing that always seems to pop up in our conversations is materialism and the 'instant gratification' that our society thrives on now-a-days. It seems that alot of people, especially the younger that have been raised in this atmosphere, are looking for a quick fix when it comes to church. They are looking for a drive thru, one stop shop when it comes to churches and spiritual renewal (hence the popularity of Mega-churches).

Society has taught them to be this way, and unfortunatly, we as Christians have done a poor job of teaching them that there is much more that God and Jesus want us to get out of our church family.

If you pay attention to world news you'll notice that protestant religions in less developed countries do not have nearly the amount of dissatisfaction with their churches, and in some places, the church actually thrives. It's because they do not live in an 'economically' driven society like we do, and it does make a difference.

I believe until we can break this cycle of thought, and prove the core values of having a church family we will always be saddled with this problem.