Disqus - Friends of themattscott

Re: Scapegoating Sarah Palin

Jim Marks — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:56:21 -0000

I'm curious why it is sexist to critique someone's irresponsible spending habits just because they happen to be a woman? We wouldn't be talking about Joe Biden's ties because Joe Biden didn't go out and spend three times the "middle class" income annual salary on ties in a four month period. People -did-, after all, talk about John Edwards' $400 hair cuts.

Re: Scapegoating Sarah Palin

Jim Marks — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:31:58 -0000

Yes, immediately after the election there were interviews with McCain's staff wherein they basically threw her completely under the bus. This is also not alleged. The accounting of the campaigns has to be made public. The receipts exist. In fact, it is now known she spent more than the original $150k number, because after that, staffers started burying the rest in meal per diems and other parts of the budget to try to stem the tide of public out-cry.

But this is completely tangential. My question is, why is it sexist to question such behavior? Simply because it just happens to feed into the stereotype about women and shopping? How is it my short coming for being critical if she did her gender a dis-service and behaved in an unfortunately stereotypical manner? Especially in light of the fact that other candidates, male candidates, have been called onto the carpet for significantly smaller extravagances (Edwards' haircuts).

That's what I would like to discuss, not the nitpick details over how much she spent, or where or when, or who has or has not confirmed or denied she did it.

I am trying to retrieve links to articles read right now, it will just take some time (to back up what I've said above).

Re: Scapegoating Sarah Palin

Jim Marks — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:27:34 -0000

Here's a link to the article I read which seemed to make it clear that the clothing extravagances were quite real:
http://www.chicagotribune.c...

Re: Scapegoating Sarah Palin

Jim Marks — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:09:33 -0000

I would politely suggest that a far more constructive and less divisive way of framing your last sentence would be to simply shorten it to "We don't need fascism." The good news about our system of government is that we never "have" fascism of any stripe. What is the good of saying something so inflammatory?

Re: Scapegoating Sarah Palin

Jim Marks — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:42:51 -0000

Firstly, I hear your admission and recognize it. I don't want to create the impression I'm railroading you by replying at length.

You are right in both responses. Printed words have no tone, and it is "your opinion". But opinions can be both inflammatory and offensive, with or without tone, spoken or printed.

Yes, we have had -elements of- fascism from both parties, a trend which is likely to worsen from both sides, as they both become increasingly "pro government" (the primary reason I rarely vote for either). But so long as we live in a country with a functioning constitution and votes that matter, the notion that "we have" anything like fascism is not only inflammatory, it is offensive to those who have experienced actual fascism, or have family histories which have been devastated by actual fascism. Either from the right, as in Europe, or from the left, as in South America. That is why I suggested it would be better to reduce the sentiment to "We don't need fascism", which is a sentiment that I suspect could be embraced by everyone here without further discussion.

Re: Scapegoating Sarah Palin

Jim Marks — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:51:36 -0000

Would you provide an example of right-wing fascism from history, please?

Re: Scapegoating Sarah Palin

Jim Marks — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:51:40 -0000

That is exactly what I meant when I referred to right-wing fascism "as in Europe".

What left-wing, European fascism did you think I meant, USSR?

Re: Some Jamz on my Gtr

Jim Marks — Sun, 23 Nov 2008 01:00:15 -0000

they're gone already?

Re: Voice of the Day: Albert Camus

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:47:52 -0000

A question and a comment.

I'm confused, the subject line says Albert Camus but the quote is attributed to Plato?

Is it not true that the imbalance between rich and poor is often worse in most (all?) other forms of earthly government? Can anyone think of a counter-example? Maybe I'm naive and ignorant.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:53:48 -0000

Possibly off-topic, but there is also a growing trend of hate crimes towards supporters of CA's Prop8, specifically Mormon churches and members. Regardless of our own personal views on Prop8 itself, I think we can all agree that the last thing this country needs is violence between two groups of people who are simply doing their best to fight for what they believe is "right".

In addition to being brave and speaking out openly and loudly about the racism which has been evident both before and after this election cycle, I believe that we also need to be speaking out loudly and openly about the hate that has been evident both before and after this election. Not just racial hatred, but hatred of "the other", whether that be religious conservatives who oppose your fight for progress, or whether that be homosexuals who oppose your fight to preserve tradition. If the fruits of The Spirit are evidence of our faith, then hatred and most certainly violence can never be the consequences of our political choices.

Thank you for making us aware that this election even has not been without significant problems.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:25:02 -0000

I'm not at all clear how your assertions indicate that this is off topic? I was under the impression that violence against group A by group B because of how group A voted, should always be something that concerns us, even without our mandate in faith to oppose violence and promote love and peace.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:29:29 -0000

Apparently many people here on this blog are unaware that there have been several, increasingly violent incidents in recent days, targeting Mormons, including the burning of a Book of Mormon on the stairs of temple. An action like that with a Torah and a Jewish temple would be getting a massive amount of press, and I would suspect, sympathy from Christians. It is distressing to see how much less concerned we are about others.

Activist leaders who are vehemently protesting Prop8 and are seeking to nullify it have openly and explicitly, unfortunately, called for targeted, violent actions against Mormons and the Mormon church. This has gone far, far beyond simple picketing and has at least reached a lemons to oranges comparison at this point.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:31:48 -0000

Do you have statistical data to back up your repeated assertion that Prop8 passed because of a correlation between African-American Obama supporter votes, and "yes" on Prop8 votes? Every statistical analysis I have seen overwhelmingly laid the credit/blame (depending on your point of view) at the feet of over 65 voters, not African-American voters. I would be very interested in seeing the data which supports this alternate interpretation of the results.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:12:06 -0000

I must confess to being completely baffled.

Who cares when the violence and hatred started?
Who cares about hypocrisy?

No one was trying to "compare". I simply suggested that if we are going to talk about raising our voices to decry violence as a result of voting, that race is not the only card on the table at this time which is resulting in violence. Nothing more.

There is no value or point to comparing violence or cause of violence. No violence is ever justified and thus no violence is ever deserved. In this way all violence is beyond rationality and comparison models.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:14:36 -0000

So, you're suggesting that the topic of this thread is the split in evangelicalism, and the threat that poses to our witness, rather than being about our obligation through faith to decry any and all violence and the impact ignoring violence has on our witness?

That's... hmmm.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:16:25 -0000

Please provide [links to] concrete data to back this up. All the exit poll data analysis I have seen shows zero correlation between an increase in minority voting (aka the "Obama effect") and the passage of Prop 8 and an extremely strong correlation between age and the passage of Prop 8.

But without links to hard, statistical analysis, this is speculation, and idle chatter. Useless.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:22:51 -0000

It was reported heavily amongst those who were fighting hard to stop Prop 8 for a long, long time, actually.

We need to be very careful about how we paint broad situations about which we have only our own, limited perspectives.

What the LDS did was hardly "undercover".

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:48:37 -0000

"Besides, we have had far, far too many Christians doing things against gays and ignoring the racism in our own camp."

That was, actually, from the beginning of this topic, my entire point.

Christians, especially evangelicals, have, let's face it, an extremely strained relationship with other faiths, and with the homosexual community.

We have a unique opportunity to re-position ourselves with -both- sides as being arbiters of peace rather than hatemongers.

Unfortunately, it seems like many of us are getting our news from such biased or oblivious sources that we don't even know this opportunity is upon us.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:09:06 -0000

I didn't blame "the media" (that non-existent monolith). I said people on this thread were apparently utilizing sources which were not informing them as much as they should be informed. A shocking amount of ignorance has been exposed on this thread.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:14:58 -0000

Believers in Jesus do not have sole ownership of the word "church". But if that troubles you, re-phrase my original post to say "temple", "tabernacle" or whatever word you believe fits to indicate a house of worship which is not Christian. I seriously doubt the altering of that one word in any way changes the intent or the result of my statement as a whole.

Perhaps there is over-reporting. Are you denying -any- hate crimes have occurred against the LDS? I was reading just the morning about a case which is being investigated by law enforcement with intent to prosecute. Are they on a wild goose chase with no evidence that anything occurred? That seems unlikely.

Also, the Mormon religion "officially" banned polygamy a long, LONG time ago and the LDS has -no- interest in promoting polygamy in Utah or any other state. Only extremely fringe sects from that religion still practice polygamy and they have almost no political or financial sway either within LDS or in American politics at large.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:49:35 -0000

By removing these two sentences from the rest, you've altered my intent and meaning. They are directly linked to the last two sentences:

"No violence is ever justified and thus no violence is ever deserved. In this way all violence is beyond rationality and comparison models."

Root causes must be addressed, yes, but they should have no baring on our decision to speak out against violence and hatred.

A lot of what is being said on this thread walks far too close a line beside "they have it coming" and I think it is important to step away from that line. Too often we use root causes as a justification for passivity. That's my concern here.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:53:10 -0000

Then provide the data to back it up.

fivethirtyeight.com did an extensive statistical analysis of the voting trends, based on the exit polls, and showed conclusively that Prop 8 passed via the age demographic, not the race demographic.

Please provide a counter-analysis to support the accuracy of your claim.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:39:50 -0000

"Gay rights" perhaps hasn't split "evangelicalism" (which I'd argue isn't actually true) but it certainly has split the Christian church.

Or does only "evangelicalism", as internally defined, matter here? If so, I'm obviously somewhere I don't belong and will cease to participate immediately.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:25:10 -0000

I have to say, I'm shocked that a simple request to be willing to be consistent across the board with our out-cry about violence and hatred, has been met with so much resistance.

Clearly I've misunderstood the purpose of this space and should be looking for dialogue somewhere else.

Re: Hate Crimes, Racist Incidents Escalate After Obama’s Election

Jim Marks — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:18:53 -0000

Where is the progressivism in this thread? All I see is a defense of conservatism.