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Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 07:05:38 -0000

No problem :0)

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 03:26:29 -0000

Hi Dale,

You back yet?

Regards,

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:56:46 -0000

Sorry for the "rant" :-)

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:49:02 -0000

I think elders are not always OLDER, but there are some hefty criteria for them to fullfil. When you look at the criteria it's clear that it would be hard for a very young man to fill those shoes. If he can and does, then for sure he can be an elder, Timothy was an elder and he was very young. I think it has to do with having proven yourself to be steady and trustworthy in the world as well as spiritually. Elders have a responsibility beyong the institution, but they also collected funds for the needy and spoke to the apostles on behalf of their communities when issues arose that they had trouble dealing with.

The word "elder" is the Greek is derived from various words, all denoting some form of seniority bestowed by position or age.

As for "home church" being the only way...I posted earlier that I don't think so. I think it needs to start in homes, with small groups, but that is by no means the only way to worship and there is freedom as you said before Dale.

There are also many rotten home churches so home church isn't always good just because it's in a home. But when it's good it's very good!

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:41:50 -0000

Unfortunately in Australia, but I am so happy to have a fellow believer in that lovely place :-)

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:37:18 -0000

Hi Dale, just wanting to clarify. I don't think houses are the only way to go, Scripturally people came together in many places, in-and out of doors. But home is where we build the relationships. Church is after all about a community of believers working together. Going from house to house the Bible says. (Acts 5) Then there are those "events" when we have a special speaker or a special day or when we reach out to others when we do "church" outside of home, but generally it's in someone's house or in the Temple, which is a place of worship we don't have anymore, Jesus told us that we are now the Temple. 1 Corinthians 3:16 So where will we go?

The problem is not, I think, with where we worship, but how we define "church". Scripturally the church is the body of believers, you and me and the next person, NOT a building. We have made the building the church and forgotten about the people methinks.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:06:46 -0000

Hi thiteral,

Yes, it can be hard to break the mold, but at least you are part of the discussion and very welcome.

What we are trying to follow is the guidelines Paul gave for assembly (or "church") in 1 Cor and other scriptures. In 1 Cor 14 it is clear that "church" does not refer to 50 souls sitting down and listening to one soul speak. I quote "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. " Please note that EVERYONE has something to bring. There are clear guidelines for what an elder should be like, how they should behave and what their duties are, as well as the respect due to them. Titus 1, Hebrews 11 and James 5 give us some insight.

We also have the words of Jesus who told us in Matthew 23:8 that we are all brothers, and that He alone is our teacher "Rabbi". What happens when we live this out in our church gatherings is pretty amazing. I have been to some other home churches which function even better than ours, but we are working towards it. What happens is that each person knows that they need to seek God's Word throughout the week so that they can come and share and build-up the others when we get together. This ensures that each person is daily and continually in prayer and communion with God and is searching, whenever possible, the Word of God for a word to share. Because we are all praying together for our Teacher to teach us, we get together and start sharing and pretty soon it becomes clear to anyone with half a brain that there is a common topic going around. And that each person has an experience, a Scripture, a song, to contribute to this lesson. Despite having seen this happen time after time I still sit in amazement when it occurs because no-one decides on a topic before hand. We just go away and ask God what He wants to say, and when we get together we speak about the same thing. It's pretty awesome. If we get together and only one person has something to share then so be it, but generally several people want to share and we all learn.

As for "debate", well sometimes that happens also, especially with contentious issues. But the study of Scripture ("midrash" in Hebrew) is usually a respectful debate with the intent that an issue is looked at from as many points of view as possible, and that everyone's opinion is respected and considered. When you debate Scripture using Scripture you force those participating in the debate to study Scripture more intently, to look and search and remember where passages are which they have used to come to their point of view. The idea of midrash is, however, not to force my point of view on you, but to open my mindset up to other ideas, other understandings and opinions about a specific word or passage. It always helps me clarify what I believe and more often than not I end up learning and humbling myself and realising I didn't see the whole picture. No matter how many times you read the Bible you can always learn more about it and understand it deeper.

The trick is to cultivate a Jesiah mindset about debate. For us debate is the beating of an opponent with words until he submits, for the Jews debate is a sharpening of knowledge, something they do with great respect for one another as family. You don't debate to win, but to learn.

You must remember that Jesus was a Jew and that Paul and James and Peter were Jews and that their mindset and the background from which they were operating was that of Jews. The church has long imagined it could divorce itself from it's Judaic roots without suffering loss, but the Scriptures very clearly advise us not to become arrogant and forget where we came from. Romans 11 makes it clear that the "root" of Christianity is Judaism and that we mustn't boast and be arrogant. Read verses 18- 21 very carefully.

Once you understand and accept the Judaic roots of your faith you will begin to understand that "church" is not that thing we do in a building, but that "church" is you and me, working together, living together, building each other up, then going out into the world, with this strong foundation and support, and sharing and showing others what God has done for us. THAT is church.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 07:01:18 -0000

Hi Dale,

You've got it right there. In fact Jesus warned us not to be so hung up on worshipping and praying in public, because that's what the pharisees were doing. It IS about a personal relationship first, then that relationship ripples out to your family, friends and community. And that could, and should be done 24/7

I personally find going into my room to praise and worship God and rejuvenate the bonds I have with Him works very well for me. And most evenings I do this with my family and sometimes my friends too. I don't need to go to an institution to do this.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 06:59:28 -0000

Hi Ritab,

Oh I wish you lived close to me. I agree so totally with your ideas about fellowship!

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 06:55:18 -0000

Dear Dale,

There is a big difference between speaking to tell people what they want to hear and speaking truth. Truth sometimes challenges us. It needn't be obnoxious or offensive, but it should challenge you. And if you're sinning, it should warn you and admonish you.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 06:24:02 -0000

Dear Casey,

Good reply. However, please, please show me where in scripture does the bills and money and members and numbers come in? The problem is that we have taken something that is about people and made it about a place. When you start worrying about numbers and money you stop worrying about the truth and the people. They become numbers and part of your budget.

Church meetings should be small enough to fit into a home - that way everyone knows each other and is aware of each others' needs and problems. That way there are no massive overheads and bills and we don't need to start seeing people as numbers. I have been in church leadership and know how we counted heads each Sunday, and how we measured the spiritual health of the church against those numbers and the tithes. This seems to me to be missing the point. Do we know how many of those people are actually hearing the message? How many are there because they like the entertainment we provide, or our coffee? Did anyone really go out today and LIVE what they learned? How can we tell? We don't know them personally, we don't even know who most of them are.

It's only on rare occations in Scripture that huge groups got together for teaching. When a special person came to speak to them about something specific e.g Paul or to share something special e.g baptism or marriages. Otherwise there were small groups that got together in homes, regularly, and learnt and taught one another.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 06:04:08 -0000

Hi Ashley,

My 19yo & 22yo sons agree with you. However, see my post below, we as a family (ages 16-42)feel the church does what it does because it has become a business and needs "bums on seats" in order to generate the income it budgets for. This results in "feel-good" messages designed to keep people happy and coming back. There isn't anything happening in church today that feeds us spiritually. There is no challenge, no thought involved. It's sit-back-and-let-us-entertain-you-until-your-wallet-opens.

What we want is someone who challenges us to walk the talk, someone who isn't afraid of offending us if that's what it takes to wake us up. We have found this in a small group doing study in someone's home. We know each other, we support each other and we challenge each other in a loving way.

We don't have a leader, but we have older, wiser Christians (who have proven themselves in the way elders should) who help us keep on track and who help guide the group so it doesn't end up in everyone talking at the same time or someone who is opinionated running the show to the detriment of more timid or quiet members. We come from different denominations and backgrounds, but we are all searching for truth and wisdom and want to worship God in truth. This makes for some lively discussion sometimes, but we accept the Judaic principles that a debate, as long as it is done resepectfully, is a great tool for learning. As iron sharpens iron, so we sharpen each other. Some speak Greek and have Greek Bibles from whcih they share historical and cultural perspective, we have Messianic Jew who shares his Jewish perspective with us and others are historians, have studied apologetics, are scientists and such. We each value the backgrounds and knowlegde the others bring and when we disagree we disagree respectfully. Who knows? Maybe you are right, but I am not yet spiritually mature enough to see it the way you do? If I ask God to show me, in time He will.

There has to be a humbleness, a willingness to learn and a respect and love for the individuals and the place where they are in their journey with God. So we all teach and we all learn and we share in the blessings that being a whole, functioning body brings.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 04:45:26 -0000

Hi Dale,

I think I can help you out here. Not only has my family given up on church, but we attend home studies with many families and singles who have done the same or are in the process of leaving church. We were leaders in our local church community and decided to call it quits after speaking to our pastor for the umteenth time about lying from the pulpit and finding him unrepentant. Everyone we have spoken to about this seems to have the same issues.

There are two problems with church today. Problem one is mammon. You cannot serve both God and mammon, but the modern day church seems to be wanting to do both. It seems that Jesus came and we are no longer under the Law, except for the "law" of tithes, which seems to have passed straight through from Deut 12 to the modern day, getting a little twist along the way with pastors and preachers becoming modern day "high priests". Totally unscriptural since Jesus is now our High Priest and mediator, but hey, why let the truth get in the way of making a buck? Whilst many of us are glad and blessed to "give", the church is not content with trusting God to supply it's needs, but wants to budget. It's wants to know exactly how much it's "members" earn and then force them to somehow fork over 10% of that monthly, in order to ensure it can budget effectively. You can also only become a "member" of the "body of Christ" when you agree to the terms of the church, amongst which is this disclosure of your income and paying of tithes. New members are invited to "partnership" or "membership" in the church and asked to sign a form agreeing to tithing. How is this Biblical? Don't we become members of the body of Christ when we repent and are forgiven by God?

When the leaders of the church cannot trust God to supply their needs and turn to abusing scripture to emotionally bully people into giving then church becomes a business or a social club and stops preaching truth for fear of offending "paying" members. Wherever I go people are offended right out of church by the fact that a place of worship has become a place of business instead.

The second problem is the clickiness of church. I have moved a few times and everytime I go to a new church in a new town I have to "prove" myself to them. They treat me as if I cannot possibly be saved unless it happened in their church. It's not so much a "body of believers" as a group of buddies willing to let you in once you've figured out the secret handshake and secret language. Each church has it's own buzzwords and woe to you if you use the right word in the "wrong" context with them. They don't try to understand you, they try to make it hard for you to get into their little circle. Oh they're friendly, give you the high five and hug when the preacher says to, but you quickly realise it's part of the marketing strategy. They are not real friends and don't really want to hang out with you outside of church, unless they notice you no longer attending, then you suddenly get those calls; "Hey buddy, long time no see, what's happening?" Outside of homegroup they hardly ever noticed you existed until you stopped attending church. In fact everytime they spoke to you, you felt it was their "job".

So basically the problem is that church has become a big, clicky, social club that abuses scripture, out of context, to fill it's coffers. Unfortunately many people today actually read their Bibles and have come to realise what tithing actually is and refers to. They are also seeking for a life of trusting God for their needs and cannot see that same commitment. God's house has become a den of liars who will do and say anything to keep their business on budget each month.

And God forbid that someone who actually has a clue about scripture should attend church. No sooner have you asked the pastor/preacher/minister a few questions about his reinterprestation of scripture than you find yourself effectively gagged. So afraid is he/she that someone might hear you ask the questions on your heart, that they tell you to shut up or get out ...in the nicest possible way off course. It doesn't much matter how long you've been with the church, just don't rock the boat.

I guess this links to something else that's been said on here, the inflexibility. We need another Luther to nail these lies and money-making schemes to the church door, because now that this has become the comfortable norm and everyone's getting away with imagining they're the MD of a God-franchise they're none to much in a hurry to hear the truth.

Why follow truth when the lie is so much more profitable?