Disqus - Latest Comments for saffronfury

Re: Interracial Marriage in the US: Some Simple South Asian Demographics

Aditya — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 09:24:11 -0000

I don't think it's fair to generalize across 1.2 billion people based on one incident.

I think we all know that every country has the "crazies".

Re: Arranged Marriages and Intercultural Relationships

Aditya — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 01:11:14 -0000

Priya - welcome to the blog... I think you bring up a very valid issue - the treatment of boys vs girls when it comes to intercultural relationships from the perspective of Indian parents...

For my own parents, I don't think there's much difference in how they would treat their son vs their daughter... i have an older sister, so I have seen this - if anything, my parents always favor the girl child - GG now has the favored youngest girl position...

For others though, it'd be naive for me to imagine that the treatment of the two sexes are the same... the "moral" latitude offered to boys ( as opposed to girls) is criminal in my opinion. However, since I don't have too much experience in directly dealing with intercultural marriages where an Indian girl is involved, I wouldn't want to comment too much...

You may find the latest posts interesting as my parents talk about their perspective on daughter vs daughter-in-law. and their expectations of their children's spouses.

Re: Intercultural Interviews: Indian Parents’ Perspective (Part Two)

Aditya — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:25:29 -0000

Hi LF, welcome to the blog...

I assume that the question is directed more towards me (since I'm the *Indian* half of the relationship).

I'm glad you brought up this question, because I do hear this argument a lot (though not here)...

I do believe that India has a very old and rich tradition, but I do not put any credence in preserving the tradition as is. The beauty of Indian culture and tradition has been in its ability to evolve over time and assimilate newer (and foreign) cultures within it...

From Alexander's generals, to the Mughals, to Annie Besant. India assimilated their foreign traditions, and made it their own...

The point at which we start trying to "preserve" our traditions, we'll become monoliths of a bygone era. The survival of traditions is in being able to remain relevant with changing times. Even following Hindu traditions & scriptures, you can see clear evidence of the evolution of Hinduism when it responds to new "challengers" like Buddhism (Bhagavad Gita), Islam (Vedanta revival) and Christianity (Vivekananda).

I do think that the argument (or preserving traditions) are well intentioned, but the fact of the matter is that traditions must be revisited constantly to remain relevant. If we froze our traditions as they were in the 16th century, we'd still have women locked in the kitchen.

Unfortunately, this argument is also being made all over the world today to deny basic human rights to minorities and oppressed groups... from the denial of political rights to women, to outlawing gay marriage, the mantra of "this is not how it has always been" has become the central "argument" against progress of society.

In the reality of the globalized world of today, intercultural relationships give us a glimpse of a future where the free flow of information and people have broken down meaningless antiquated boundaries.

Re: Intercultural Interviews: Indian Parents’ Perspective (Part One)

Aditya — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 11:48:16 -0000

haha so now PG is claiming to be a Desi

Re: Wearing Sindoor as a White Woman

Aditya — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 11:44:10 -0000

I guess here's the admission that MMDP is "Pardesi Gori"?

Re: Intercultural Interviews: Indian Parents’ Perspective (Part One)

Aditya — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:07:34 -0000

"when you are being taught something by Desis like your husband"

haha... i didnt realize i was teaching anything here :)

normally i only ramble "teachings" if the discussion goes into Hindu theology / postcolonial theory...

Re: Intercultural Interviews: Indian Parents’ Perspective (Part One)

Aditya — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:00:28 -0000

Obviously, the word "girlfriend" can mean different things to different people (including western readers of the blog)

I still disagree with your fundamental assertion here, that "girlfriend" automatically means "sex partner" for Western readers... I know *many* americans for whom that wasnt/isnt true, and many of them eventually got married to their "girlfriends/boyfriends".

Re: Intercultural Interviews: Indian Parents’ Perspective (Part One)

Aditya — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:12:01 -0000

btw, what do any of these questions have to do with intercultural relationships??

Re: Intercultural Interviews: Indian Parents’ Perspective (Part One)

Aditya — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:11:14 -0000

Its interesting you ask these questions, because I think it does say something significant about how you seem to approach this subject.

To my parents (as well as me), relationship and sex are two different subjects (albeit related). If you "date" people with the sole objective of having sex with them, that's probably the kind of thing my parents would say falls in the "bad intention" category...

The reasons I would never ask these questions to my parents, are the same reasons why your boyfriend would not ask your father whether he should let you be on top more often during sex, or your father's opinions on oral sex...

#1. decorum

#2. it is -frankly- not their business/concern

#3. (goes with #1) these are not things you normally ask your parents.

Re: Following the Iran Elections Aftermath

Aditya — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:01:14 -0000

try this: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1...

Re: Words on Hindostan - Part One

Aditya — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:16:35 -0000

I just wanted to point out a few things:

#1: I never stated that GV was my thesis. My thesis was actually critiquing the use of Psychoanalysis in Contemporary Discourse in Hindu Theology - mainly focusing on the cultural specificity of Hindu traditions, and the problems in applying certain literary tools (that are reliant on vocabulary and cultural connotations) on translated text.

#2: You said: "Actually, one of the arguments against ISKCON being an authentic form of GV is its process of giving upanayan and brahma gayatri to initiates at the time of diksha, precisely BECAUSE this is NOT done in Gaudiya Vaishnavism in India (the only exception being the Gaudiya Math [...])."

This actually supports what I had said previously - That ISKCON does it to identify itself as part of the larger GV movement. And here is the reason:
Prabhupada (the founder of ISKCON) was a disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta (who was the founder of the Gaudiya Math).

Re: Words on Hindostan - Part One

Aditya — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:55:30 -0000

#1: I never disputed the fact that Indo-Aryans were a subset of Indo-Europeans. It is the Aryan invasion theory that has been substantively disproven.

The key here is the invasion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

#2: Originally, you had claimed: "[...] the Y-chromosomal lineage goes along the lines of the father, which means most Indo-Europeans were male.". This made no sense.

If you re-read the extract you just cited, note that it states that study of mtDNA and Y-chromosomal mapping suggests that the migrants were likely mostly male.

Note that the article is only suggesting a "plausible explanation" not fact.

Re: Words on Hindostan - Part One

Aditya — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:50:59 -0000

-- There are as little people like this guy who are self-absorbed, pseudo-intellectual idiots as there are gentiles in Wall Street!

--> Your grasp of the English language is amazing...

-- He doesn't know that Indo-Aryan is a sub-group of Indo-European. He doesn't seem to comprehend analogies, so refrain from typing in analogies, allegories, even basic examples, if you don't want this Hindu blog to derail to something unrelated. (I wonder if he understood the "gentiles in Wall Street" comment.)

--> I do know that Indo-Aryan is a sub-group of Indo-European... I have never stated otherwise. This is not a "Hindu blog" - and no, i didnt understand your comment because it is non-sense grammatically.

-- He thinks quoting information from International Journals in Psychology and Genetics would make you an "idiot." So, no fact here, just priestly baloni!

--> No, you paraphrased the information idiotically. Y-Chromosome Haplogroup mapping does not state that most people were male.

--> also, anyone can click on the wiki links that clearly contradict each of your previous claims.

Re: Words on Hindostan - Part One

Aditya — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:43:48 -0000

In true Hare Krishna tradition, you wilfully mislead people...

#1: regarding "no thread tradition" in gaudiya vaisnavism... here's a picture of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu: http://www.krishnaland.com/...

just google his name and go to images - and in each one, he is wearing a thread.

#2: I did respond to your comment - Bramhins are not the only ones who wear the thread - Kshatriyas and Vaishyas also wear the uppanayan. (check out the wiki article) - it's a sign of religious initiation.

#3: Please - Just because Iskcon associates itself with the Gaudiya tradition, doesnt make it part of the gaudiya movement as you so skilfully pretend it is...

#4: I actually have a degree in Religious Studies, specializing in Modern Hinduism - my thesis advisor's speciality is Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

#5: You yourself stated: "Is ISKCON Hinduism? Prabhupada said no, we are not Hindu, we are Vaishnava."

#6: I never claimed specialized knowledge of iskcon - in fact, i clearly stated "from what i have read", and "i'll need to look into the iskcon diksha system" - thus clearly stating that i did not have enough knowledge of it.

#7: I have stated this before, and I am happy to say it again - in my honest opinion, the Iskcon foundation has been (since Prabhupada's death) run essentially by criminals. The number of brain-washing, and sexual abuse complaints that have emanated from those compounds are rivalled only by the "new" Sai Baba (who I also think is a crook).

Re: Words on Hindostan - Part One

Aditya — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:32:45 -0000

Btw, bramhins are not the only ones who are supposed to wear the "thread" (actually called "Upanayam") - the thread is merely a marker of initiation into religious society for a male child... Kshatriyas & Vaishyas are also supposed to wear them. And Buddhists too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Re: Words on Hindostan - Part One

Aditya — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:29:34 -0000

"And, what temples besides Jagannath at Puri and that other South Indian temple that doesn't allow anyone but caste Hindus to enter, is it that isn't allowing Iskcon in?"
--> Those are two of the most important temples for Hindus... Any temple that is affiliated with those two (and there are many of those) also do not allow Iskcon members to enter their premises...

"And its funny you would cite such temples when you claim there are *millions* of Hindus who don't believe in the caste system."
--> I don't condone the temple's system of not allowing iskcons (or any other group) into it's premises. There's clearly a dichotomy in Modern Hinduism between those who believe in the caste system and those who dont... this merely illustrates my point. If that's funny to you, then haha.

Re: Words on Hindostan - Part One

Aditya — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:23:35 -0000

the thread is for identification with gaudya principles, not varna/caste identification...

i'll need to look into the diksha system iskcon has - but my understanding has been that they only use the maha-mantra.

Also, without going into whether that's what iskcon calls it - i think there's a distinction to be made between _their_ bramhins/gayatri mantra and the "standard" understanding of those terms...

Just like "Eucharist" has a very specific significance in Catholicism (and Christianity) - and is distinct from some rogue sect calling their own ritual 'eucharist'.

Re: Words on Hindostan - Part One

Aditya — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:07:38 -0000

For ease of accessibility (you can look up the references cited if necessary):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manusmriti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosome_haplo...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_lang...

Which all directly contradict what you said above.

Re: Words on Hindostan - Part One

Aditya — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:52:23 -0000

Iskcon doesn't give "bramhin thread" or the gayatri mantra to its membership... they use the "maha mantra" which is a completely different concept (more torah-like in concept).

Also, most Hindus would not consider Iskcon to be part of Hinduism - in fact Iskcon members are banned from even entering many Hindu temples - let along being priests.

Re: Words on Hindostan - Part One

Aditya — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:47:59 -0000

"Varna" is the original ("classical") social order in Hinduism... it comes from the Vedas, and groups people by occupation... so the priests are "bramhin", soldiers are "kshatriya", traders are "vaishya", and laborers are "shudra"...

"Jati" was introduced in Manusmriti, and is based on lineage. Jati was constructed as a subset of "Varna". Your example of Jati is exactly spot on...

The consequence of the Jati system was that there was no longer mobility between jatis (and thus Varnas).

In general, bramhins who claim to trace their origins back to rishis are as genuine as Mohd. tracing his lineage back to Abraham. i.e. entirely debatable.

Re: Words on Hindostan - Part One

Aditya — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:21:29 -0000

--> I'll start with the statement that you are confusing "caste" with "varna". Technically, "caste" is actually "jati". Though this is a common misconception, so i'll humor your vocabulary.

"Perhaps you need to meet more Hindus, but there are hundreds of millions of Hindus who do not support the caste system."

Hahaha! I love people who contradict themselves within the same sentence.

--> me too.

You advised R to meet more people because he explicitly stated that all Hindus follow the racist caste system, but you yourself have made equally prejudiced statements that "there are hundreds of millions of Hindus who do not support the caste system."

--> No. If you had studied any statistics, you'd know that extrapolations can be made from a sample of the population (without surveying every single person). the size of the sample with respect to the total population (and the sample selection methodology) determines the margin of error inherent in the extrapolation.

--> When R said "ALL hindus" support the caste system, the evidence of a single Hindu (me) not supporting the caste system substantially invalidates the basic statement. And I personally know hundreds of Hindus who don't support the caste system.

Certainly, Adithya (that's actually my name too), you haven't met hundreds of millions of Hindus, have you? R's experience coming from rural India where Hinduism is practiced in its purest form is more likely to be true than a higher caste person's!

--> My statement is not unreasonable, as it is based on the sample size of Hindus I've met (and extrapolated from).

-->Theologically speaking, there's no such thing as "purest form" of Hinduism. The heterogeneity of Hinduism is an integral part of its identity. Don't confuse social practice with religious practice. In rural India, many of these social injustices / imbalances (including the caste system) also exist within the Christian and Muslim communities. So they are not unique to Hindus.

The Caste System is racist.

--> I agree. But, the "Varna" system is not. (this is where the distinction is important). "Varna"s are occupational, "caste" is hereditary.

It has been proven in the field of Genetics, that Indo-Europeans invaded India.

--> No. It has been proven that Indo-Europeans migrated to india. Aryan Invasion theory is quite specific, and has no supporting evidence.

Aryans belonged to the haplogroups (J2, R1a, R2, and L), whereas the tribals -- Australoid by race and lowest in caste (duh!) -- belonged to haplogroups (H, F*, and O2a).

--> Yes, but the reason is not because of their skin-color, but rather their "other-ness" to Aryan culture/civilization. Technically, all non-Hindus fall into the out-caste category (which is not the same as low caste). The distinction between low-caste and out-caste is that the lower castes are part of mainstream soceity. Tribals are out-castes and not part of the society.

The native Dravidians were also a Caucasoid stock, but genetically very different. India has one of the most heterogeneous gene pools and four totally different lingual groups: Indo-Aryan, Dravidian, Austo-Asiatic, and one more I do not know the name of.

--> Depends on what you mean by "native"... and this is not an established fact (as you are suggesting it is).

(Language is related to race, in the sense that one language group prevents mixing with another language group, consequently prevent gene flow between the races).

--> No. both language and races have "mixed" continuously throughout human history.

But the races did mix. According to Y-chromosomal lineage, most Brahmins and Kshatriyas are Indo-European, because the Y-chromosomal lineage goes along the lines of the father, which means most Indo-Europeans were male.

--> No. And you are an idiot for saying this. It just means that they tracked the Y-chromosomal lineage. It's like saying if you track the Mitochondrial DNA of humans (which goes along the lines of the mother), it means that most humans were women.

They mixed with the native Dravidian women, which is why the Blonde Gene is no longer found in India, but found in Afghanistan, Iran, Tajikistan, where there weren't Dravidians to breed with. So the male ancestors of higher caste people were Aryans, but their ancestry along their mothers' line was Dravidian.

--> You should really think through how this fits in your timeline... where are you suggesting "Hinduism" started? Clearly either it started when Aryans and Dravidians co-habited - in which case they'd be of equivalent social status. Or it started before Aryans arrived in India (which btw is the commonly accepted history) - which would make Dravidians out-castes.

Let's decide if Hindooooooooos hate the caste system.
--> Ok

The word "caste" was adopted from the Latin word, "Castus," just a few hundred years ago. The original name was Varna, which literally means color, in Sanskrit.

--> You are almost there... the way you are using it, it would be correct. But Caste actually refers to Jati (which is a subset of Varna). Jati means "of birth". Varna can only be loosely translated into English - essentially refers to classification, but the exact form of classification depends on context.

The roots of the word go back to the 2000 B.C. period, when the Rig Vedas were chanted

--> approx 1200BCE, but ok.

(apart from linguistic and genetic evidence for the Aryan invasions, most of the Gods in the Rig Vedas were Blonde)

--> Again, migration - not invasion. And can you cite the evidence that states that most of the Gods in Rg Veda were "blonde"?

The Aryan priests were on the top.
-->ok.

The Dark skinned Shudras and Dalits (people who built the Indus Valley civilization) were at the bottom.

--> "shudras" are part of the varna system - so they can be of any race. Dalits were out-castes so not at the bottom, just outside. This is like saying Canadians are at the bottom of the American social classes.

If one calls himself a Hindu, then he or she should accept the Varna system which was given by God, therefore making racism a core part of Hinduism.

--> This is circular reasoning. Vedic beliefs are not a core part of modern Hinduism. Don't know about you, but I have not seen an Ashwamedha ritual performed. Also, Varna is not racist, Jati is though.

The Caste System (Manusmriti), the Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita dictate what Hindoooos should do, not modern day liberalism.

--> Finally correct usage. Caste system was introduced by Manusmriti (which is not divine text by any stretch of the imagination). Vedas introduced the Varna system - which essentially says "you should perform the duties of your occupation" (or you get fired). And your statement belies the very nature of Hinduism. It has always been a very fluid (and personal) religious system - which has adapted continually over time. From the Bhagvad Gita (responding to the rise of Buddhism) to the Upanishads & Puranas, Hinduism has accepted new liturgy into it's fold to remain relevant.

A person who rejects the cruel caste system is no more Hindu than a person who rejects the resurrection of Jeeebus is Christian.

--> No. that statement doesnt even make any sense.

1. Christianity is based on believing that Christ was the son of God, who came amongst us and suffer with us so that he could sacrifice his life to save our souls. (his resurrection is secondary, and could be metaphorical).

2. Hinduism had existed for almost two thousand years even before the caste system was introduced (by Manusmriti).

BTW - manusmriti did not gain prominence in Hindu society until much, much later (during the british colonization of India).

Re: Don’t Get Your Undies in a Bunch: Worrying About Intercultural Quirks

Aditya — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:30:23 -0000

I think there's a distinction to be made between the affection shown by the mother and the result of that on the son (in this case)... its not necessarily the hand feeding that turned the boy (now man) into a lazy-pants... but it certainly seems to have fed it.

correlation =/= causation.

my mother hand-fed me when i was little, but that didn't turn me into a crazy person... at least as far as i can tell :-)

Re: Indianfied Chicken Pot Pie

Aditya — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 17:40:45 -0000

fortunately you would not fall into this so-called "well qualified ethnic men"...

Re: Indianfied Chicken Pot Pie

Aditya — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:37:02 -0000

yeah, because "brown indian guys" (i.e. you) are too busy trolling on other people's blogs to write any of their own.

Re: Indianfied Chicken Pot Pie

Aditya — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:12:54 -0000

Literally none = 0.

Aditya - B.A. in Religious Studies, Literature
GG - M.A. in Economics. (more "scientific")

sooo. Also, Zakaria is amongst the most qualified - not to mention intelligent- people on the planet... taking him as your low "edge-case" is silly.

Aditya 1 - 0 Darkest Dude Ever