Disqus - Latest Comments for ritab

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:06:22 -0000

Wish I'd gotten to know you and Jonalyn while you lived here. Met you once then heard Jonalyn speak at "Little Church" in Laguna. You guys are a great team.

Agreed, churches that meet in homes probably aren't right for everyone. I wasn't ready for it a few years ago myself-Churches also can provide a lot of different programs that help people-and people in our culture seem to like programs.

I'm ok with elders being older. They have wisdom that seminary can't teach...in my opinion there should only be rare exceptions. I'm not sure what age I would consider older though...I do think that God works those things out. Spirit filled leaders naturally rise-shouldn't need to promote themselves. Matt 23:11-12 comes to mind. I believe younger people can an should give input, but defer to elders. Why? Older have experiences that teach them and bring the bible to life like (most) books never can. They've often dealt with issues like death in their family, depression, job losses etc that most younger people just haven't experienced. That's just my opinion though.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 12:09:25 -0000

"In such a celebrity driven culture, managing appearances becomes another 'necessary' means of sustainability." Really Jeff, why?

PS. You were a kind and good pastor to my children when they attended your youth group studies. I thank you for that.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:41:26 -0000

I live in Southern California...you?

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 00:42:26 -0000

It's funny how you talk about "movements". With all due respect, I don't know that we have to label everything. I guess I'd just love to have a group of Christian friends that gets together to hang out, study the bible, sing some songs and yes, discuss outreaches and charitable endeavors that we're working on. We could and should have leaders like elders and so on. I picture kids and babies nearby too, not always in separate rooms. The groups I'm a part of now aren't like this, but it would be neat to experience, for sure.

I agree heartily with everything else you just wrote. R

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 23:10:31 -0000

PS. There are no altars at the bible studies I go to. :)

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 23:07:36 -0000

I too am sorry about "obnoxious pastor syndrome". Again though, I don't think we need to throw out ALL the old ways because some didn't work.

I agree about the altar. I'm not concerned very much about the altar in this conversation though, I'm concerned about telling people what they must do (make a decision) to be born into God's family. A case could be made that the altar is for us. That we are surrendering to God...but I certainly don't feel it's an important enough point to spend much time on, to be honest. (at least in this conversation).

In your second paragraph, you say that in the church "Gathering believers will like not include non-believers but those who already desire to know or understand the community." I would hope that they would desire to know and understand God. I don't understand what you mean by "know and understand the community". Home churches and such certainly could invite unbelievers to come along to worship and learn, and with no set schedule to keep, the church "order" could be rearranged at a moment's notice to accommodate the new person, perhaps learning what their needs are (if they are comfortable sharing) and ministering to them in a very personal, caring way.

I think we're getting off topic a little but I do embrace the word Christian. That's interesting that some scholars understand the word to have a different meaning. Not a big deal to me. I've heard the arguments against calling oneself a Christian and I have made a decision to identify myself as one, even if I may be reviled. While I certainly would never purposely be offensive as the pastors you describe have, I also know that scorn and ridicule often come with the territory when you love God. If being a Christian means being a slave, then so be it. I understand that the word Christian has been thrown around too much and has come to mean something derogatory in some people's eyes, however, people have lied about Jesus since the day he was born and I feel I should be in good company if at times, my motives are misunderstood or if people think I'm unrealistic, or even a bit daft because of my belief in Jesus.

To get back to the topic Dale, may I ask what you think "church" should be like?

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 13:50:07 -0000

Hi again Dale-

I'm sharing a lot of thoughts here and I must write before I start again that (obviously) I don't have everything figured out and that I am (I hope) growing and learning. It goes without saying that I struggle with my own personal issues, sins and shortcomings and I don't claim to have all the answers. I like to think, I am open to Truth as I want to please God more than anything, as I'm sure you and Jonalyn do too. I'm enjoying this discourse and hopefully we'll all become more like Jesus as a result of it.

I think I understand the first part of your question. I believe the bible describes The Church as the body of believers and I don't think it has anything to do with a building although believers tend to meet in buildings. :) God does command us in scripture to "not forsake the assembling of ourselves together" and so I assemble with other Christians for bible studies, meals together, long talks, walks on the beach, good movies and so on.

I believe the early Christians met in caves or in people's homes. What makes a specific type of building an acceptable gathering place? Is it the size, the lighting, the type of music, the carpeting, the cross on the wall? In John 4:20-24 the woman at the well questions Jesus about where the appropriate place to worship is and he says "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth." We can and should pray to and worship God without ceasing, wherever we are, in a church building, in the grocery store, in our schools, in our workplaces, in our cars and so on. There is nothing wrong with going to a church building to worship and church can be a great place to meet Christians (if you can stick around long enough) but I find little scripturally to support it being mandated.

This being said, the bible does mention leadership in certain churches even using the word bishop (I only see the word pastor used but once in my bible) , so I realize I must be open to leadership. My unbelieving husband is gone (I became a Christian after we married) so I have no male leadership and little female leadership in my life. My personal goal is to find older Christian men and women to guide me and disciple me. It is possible that to find them I will have to go to church buildings. :) And perhaps when it is time for me to mentor younger women as God commands in Titus 2:3-5 I will need to go to a church building to find women looking for help. I guess in the final analysis, and in my experience, for me, a church building MAY be a good place to find other Christians and to learn and to teach and to fellowship, but it isn't the only place.

I'm not as articulate as I'd like to be but I hope my ramblings and especially the scripture verses I've mentioned have been of some help to someone.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:50:58 -0000

I'm truly sorry that you've had to deal with obnoxious pastors Dale. That certainly isn't what I meant by not watering down the Gospel though. I think that in an effort to not be offensive, the pastors of modern day churches have swung to the opposite extreme and become a bit to worldly and cold.

I feel that every Sunday morning service should include a Billy Graham style call for a decision for Christ. I don't think there has to be an altar call per se, although I have no objection to it.

Perhaps if you've had bad experiences with fundamentalist churches, an altar call seems too forced or legalistic but as we change with the times, I don't think we need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. At the very least, a call to make a decision to follow Jesus is a must. We don't know how much time on earth an individual has left and we mustn't let an opportunity pass to give them the knowledge they need to be saved from their sins. What could be more important?

In my perfect world, which doesn't exist, an unbeliever entering a Christian church building would be welcomed with smiles and a kindly person would ask the newcomer about themselves and as the Spirit leads, make the them feel at home and cared for as a human being. The same thing would happen after the service. There shouldn't have to be committees formed for this. It's called being being our "brother's keeper" and being loving as our dear savior is, even to the point of washing his disciples dirty feet.

The book of Romans speaks of "greeting each other with a holy kiss"(Rom 16:16) and being "kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love"(Rom 12:10) and while I believe he is speaking of relationships between believers, it gives us a clue as to what sort of people we are to be. Not cold and distant, but warm and friendly.

I hope this clarifies a little and although some want to make the unbeliever responsible for "reaching out" when they come to church, I believe we, the little Christs (as you probably know, that is what Christian means) the ones that have known God's love and mercy, have a holy calling to personally make an effort to reach people that are seeking God.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 17:44:19 -0000

Pkenney86 can you break that down into English for me sweetie? I'm not as edumacated as you.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 17:30:11 -0000

With all due respect mama_in_africa can you quote me scriptures that use the word pastor?

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:39:21 -0000

1 Tim 2:9-15 particularly 11-12. Probably a topic for another time.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:11:36 -0000

I should probably quit after this because I feel I'm overstepping my bounds as a woman. I'll just leave you with some verses that come to mind.

Math10:32-38 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

If Jesus said there may be a sword between us and our very family members, how much more should there be, complete strangers that don't believe. We must love unbelievers enough to risk rejection, reach out to them and then tell them the Truth in love or they will believe the wrong "gospel" and remain unsaved! Gal1:6-9

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:20:05 -0000

I like how you used the word passion. We *should* be passionate about helping lost people avoid hell and know God. After thinking about it for a bit, I'm wondering if the collegiate approach is an attempt to avoid scaring people off or attempt to not appear to be a "fire and brimstone"type of church.

I don't think the Gospel should be watered down to please the masses. Jesus didn't suffer and die in the horrendous way he did to save us from boredom, or to teach us right from wrong (although His life and death did teach us a lot!) or to give us a place to go on Sunday so we can feel righteous and check off "go to church" on a weekly checklist. How can we be so lukewarm!!!!

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:00:21 -0000

Collegiate? Why do people feel this approach prevents hurt feelings? I certainly wouldn't describe Jesus as collegiate.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

ritab — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:27:11 -0000

Great discussion. Everyone pretty much covered what I want to say (more eloquently than I could) except to add, in my life, at this point, assembling with other believers consists of natural friendships where we meet together and share and pray. It's not done at a certain time or in a certain place but it's done in Spirit and in Truth. I sometimes go to bible studies if the people there are genuine and warm and the are studying the BIBLE. I can't say what's right for other people, but that's the best I can do at this point. I find one of the most discouraging things on the planet is trying out a new "church" place and having to do all the reaching out and getting a lukewarm reception. It hurts! I can't help but think that if I were not a already a believer, I wouldn't feel inclined to learn more about God, in that kind of environment, no matter how many programs you have or how entertaining your music is.

What's to be done?