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Re: Half Of U.S. Cases Of AIDS Are Among Black Americans

trogers1 — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:29:05 -0000

TS:

We will just have to agree to disagree regarding the church.

As far as my perspective goes I think the biggest reason for the
increase is the numbers of black men being recycled through the prison
system. I do think the so called down low thing plays a role, too.
However, I think people took that and ran with it. JL King wrote a book
about it and everyone went crazy. While is important to look at I still
think the number of black men who are 'on the down low' is miniscule
when compared to the number of brothers being locked up.

Growing up in one of LA's gang neighborhoods I know a lot of people who
have been in and out of prison. From the stories I have heard I am
convinced consensual sex and forced sex between men is the NORM in
prison, not the exception. An older brother I know confided in me and
told me his story of what happened to him while being locked down. He
was violated repeatedly against his will. It was heart breaking. Often
these men are ashamed of their experiences and never address being
violated.

One of the articles pointed out that the rate of HIV infections in
prison is higher than the outside population. When you add to the fact
that so many black men are rotating in and out of prison it is not
surprising we have an epidemic on our hands.

I won't even get into the down low thing because that has been beaten to
death.

So what can we do? First off we have to do more to keep our young men
out of incarceration. I know, that is a whole thread in and of itself.
We have to acknowledge that many of them have been violated. We have to
change the tenor of our conversations as black folk to make people feel
comfortable talking about their experiences. We must also address the
rarely talked about rate of depression in our community. But that is
another issue.

Churches can help with opening up dialogue. But remember, younger blacks
are not going to church the way our grandmothers did. And it is the
younger one that are most at risk.

Re: Half Of U.S. Cases Of AIDS Are Among Black Americans

trogers1 — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:04:08 -0000

TS,

I do not disagree that some churches could do more to educate. And
that's all they can do. They can not make people act differently.
However, I do not think is their responsibility to tackle the problem
head on. There are a host of issues in the black community.
Unfortunately, this is just one of many. And there are churches that do
address this one. Some address violence. Many others address poverty. So
are trying to address the high out of wedlock births. Each church only
has so many resources they can devote to any given issue. Most black
churches are not doing it like TD Jakes and Creflo Dollar. They are
small ministries trying to address the needs of their people.

As far as other cultures go, the entire Middle East is largely religious
and do not share our 'liberal' views on homosexuality. In fact, in Saudi
Arabia homosexual acts are considered criminal under Sharia (Islamic
Law). The president of Iran went as far as to tell a group of students
at Columbia University that Iran does not have any homosexuals. It is
one thing to acknowledge and disagree. Many in that part of the world
will not even acknowledge that Gay people do exist. Remember Islam is
the fastest growing religion in the world. Also, in both China and India
homosexuality in general is frowned upon. And these two countries
represent the fast growing economies in the world. The areas of the
world represent growing cultural and global influence. So their
positions are not insignificant.

Lastly, I was not my intent to refer to Craig as delusional. I meant to
say the notion itself was, not him personally. I do not come onto
internet boards to try to offend people.

Re: Half Of U.S. Cases Of AIDS Are Among Black Americans

Sombody_took_my_username — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 02:57:17 -0000

The church is central to the life of the black community. It's where they gather as families.

"The message about homosexuality is not going anywhere. There is no point in even arguing that one."

For all blacks have been through, we don't have the luxury to completely write off any of our own..certainly not based on their sexual orientation. The pious routinely embrace criminals while vilifying gays.

Black Christian women are having sex because it's their biological imperative to do so. No amount of preaching will thwart the sex drive. The church can have an effect however, on the whether women & men protect themselves while having sex.

The government doesn't have the same clout with the black community as the church does. And, if Wright's sermons are any indication, the black church may be culpable in instilling distrust of government in it's congregation. In addition, most AA's have a natural distrust of white authoritarian institutions. If preaching can convince us that the government engineered HIV, then preaching can convince us to use condoms.

I sense that blacks speak a different "language" and tune out those public service announcements that are "foreign". They will listen if it comes from a respected pastor.

So, why don't you tell us what the HIV/Aids problem is from your perspective?

Re: Half Of U.S. Cases Of AIDS Are Among Black Americans

Sombody_took_my_username — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 02:33:14 -0000

Craig is probably the least delusional person on this blog.

I want to learn...what cultures are hostile to homosexuality that are neither Christian or American?

The church was a mechanism for organizing and for disseminating information for the Civil Rights movement. It could be the same organizing force in the battle against HIV. HIV is as great a threat as institutionalized racism. However, their ideological bent is that virgin marriage and heterosexuality is the cure for all ills. Now, that is naive.

Re: Half Of U.S. Cases Of AIDS Are Among Black Americans

trogers1 — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:33:08 -0000

Craig,

I have no problem with you arguing your message. My issue is when folks don't like certain things about certain religions they make it their life's mission to COMPLETELY take out ALL religions. Religion has given us some very ugly things over the years. It has also given us some very wonderful things over the years. The Civil Rights movement was rooted in the black church.

If your mission is to educate and enlighten people about a community they are misunderstanding, then I am totally with you. However, if your goal is to get everyone to agree with homosexuality, then that's delusional. The lack of understanding and acceptance of homosexuality is not all the fault of the church. There are plenty of cultures that are not very accepting of homosexuality that are neither Christian, nor American.

Like Truth Seeker, you should be careful not to attempt to put all the blame on the church, thus naively believing the elimination of the church means the elimination of the problem.

Re: Half Of U.S. Cases Of AIDS Are Among Black Americans

trogers1 — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:24:26 -0000

So the church handing out condoms will drive down the rate of HIV? Come on now! In most urban communities you can get free condoms all day long, if you want them. Heck, one can always go to the neighborhood drug store and buy condoms. If your life is truly important to you then what is a few dollars on a pack of rubbers?

The message about homosexuality is not going anywhere. There is no point in even arguing that one. And black 'Christian' women are obviously having sex. Many are doing it outside of marriage. They do not need the church to 'make it acceptable' for them to do that. Why does the church need to make it acceptable to use a condom? They are having sex. Did pastor Do Good make that acceptable?

Also, you compared the church to the government. I am not sure if I agree with the comparison, but OK. The government has been putting money into educating people about the infection for years. The government pays for those 'free' condoms that we all have access to. AT BEST, it has helped the infection rate stabilize in the general population (but not significantly decrease). And it has done nothing for the black population. In fact, the rate has exploded among blacks. And blacks saw the same public service announcements about the disease that whites saw. If the government is struggling to get through to people then what impact is the church supposed to have? Seriously. I think you have an axe to grind with the black church. If so, then grind your axe. But you may be letting that get in the way of your ability to see the HIV/ AIDS problem for what it is.

Re: Half Of U.S. Cases Of AIDS Are Among Black Americans

Sombody_took_my_username — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:49:18 -0000

Similarly, "The Black Church" can continue to vilify homosexuality, but it won't make the HIV numbers go down. It won't save a single life. In fact, it might cost more lives as it creates the impression that HIV is a "gay" problem only.

"If the church can not stop people from committing other 'sins' then what can they do to stop the spread of HIV?"

I think they can tell women especially to use condoms, they can hand them out not because women don't have other means of getting condoms, but to make it acceptable for black, Christian women to use them. We know black people go to church a lot, particularly black women and I think HIV protection begins with us.

The church speaks on personal matters all the time. They draw the line on condom use because of religious ideology, while people die.

I call the preacher out because he grows fat on our suffering. He is a spokesperson to the black community and collects dollars from our people....it's almost a form of government. What happens when the government taxes but fails to meet the needs of the people?

Re: Half Of U.S. Cases Of AIDS Are Among Black Americans

trogers1 — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:10:14 -0000

You can keep pointing the finger at "The Black Church" all you want. It will not make any of these numbers go down. People make up their minds to engage in behavior that is risky. And please do not start with the whole stigma argument. It is not the churches fault. I personally believe it has more to do with the high numbers of incarcerated black men and a small, but significant number of bisexual men who do not disclose their behavior.

If the church can not stop people from committing other 'sins' then what can they do to stop the spread of HIV? All they can do is try to educate, but the education is already out there. In fact, it has been out there for years. People simply have not heeded it. At the end of the day folks do what they want to do. HIV is not a Civil Rights issue for the church to organize marches around. It is a personal issue based on individual behavior. By trying to pin all or most of the blame on the church you are misrepresenting the nature of the problem.

Calling out TD Jakes or any other preacher will not stop another young black American from being infected.