Disqus - Latest Comments for richardxthripp

Re: These gift cards keep disappearing. Why?

Richard Thripp — Tue, 31 Jan 2017 04:36:17 -0000

One of the reasons businesses do not want to add security to gift cards is avoiding escheatment laws. If they collect names and addresses from gift card owners (recipients), then they may be subject to escheatment in states where the individual gift card owners reside. But, if they don't collect the information, they are typically subject to the laws where the gift card issuing company is located. This is why gift card issuing companies are always located in friendly states like Washington, and companies located in states with unfavorable laws can just register their gift-card-issuing shell company in a friendly state.

http://www.consumerproducts...
http://apparel.edgl.com/new...
http://www.journalofaccount...

Re: Help, PayPal pocketed my money – can it do that?

Richard Thripp — Fri, 26 Feb 2016 16:20:36 -0000

Yes—using a lot of gift cards quickly can result in your account being permanently frozen ("limited" as they call it), especially if it is a business account. Their risk evaluations result in many "false positives." There is an entire website, www.paypalsucks.com, dedicated to complaints about PayPal limiting accounts and seizing or holding funds. (Of course, some complaints on there are from customers who were committing illegal activities or acting in violation of PayPal's terms, but many complainers do not do these things.)

PayPal won't discuss details with outsiders, and often, not even with the customer, so it is impossible to get both "sides" of the story, but that doesn't necessarily mean the customer "deserved" to have gift cards stolen. In fact, it is outrageous that so many corporations (eBay/PayPal, Amazon, Starbucks, and sometimes Target) treat gift card holders with such contempt.

Re: Help, PayPal pocketed my money – can it do that?

Richard Thripp — Fri, 26 Feb 2016 13:43:17 -0000

It's actually not really a lot—verified eBay/PayPal users are allowed to use up to $5000 in gift cards per rolling 180 day period, and that's per PayPal account; individuals are allowed to have (2) PayPal accounts (one business and one personal), so that's up to $20,000 of eBay gift cards per year that are allowed to be used.

It is easy to even do things such as buying bullion below spot price with eBay gift cards. eBay gift cards often go on sale—even from eBay itself who will often offer a 2.5% or 5% discount (and you can buy eBay gift cards with eBay gift cards on eBay). Further, eBay gift cards are sold in many stores—one can rack up 5 Chase Ultimate Rewards points per dollar by buying them at Office Depot or Staples with their Chase Ink business credit card, for example.

Therefore, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to have eBay gift cards, even when you are buying them for yourself.

Re: Help, PayPal pocketed my money – can it do that?

Richard Thripp — Fri, 26 Feb 2016 13:38:51 -0000

eBay/PayPal, Amazon, and Starbucks all flagrantly violate the laws regarding gift cards. Of course, there is money to be saved via gift cards—particularly with eBay gift cards that can be bought with Target or Best Buy gift cards, and actually go on sale often (e.g., Target's 10% off sale on eBay gift cards in August 2015).

However, no matter what their Terms of Use say, every state has laws against changing the terms of a gift card after it is issued, particularly with respect to enforcing an expiration date on the gift card. These laws do not apply to promotional gift cards (which may be received as a promotional incentive) or coupons, but the gift cards Mr. Thomas had were not promotional gift cards.

When it comes to eBay/PayPal, my recommendation is to only use an eBay gift card if you are using 100% of the balance at once. If you use it partially, it becomes permanently tied to your PayPal account. Particularly with business PayPal accounts, you could be permanently limited at any time. There is no gift card balance to lose if you are only using gift cards on orders where you can use 100% of each gift card.

And of course, always immediately withdrawal any money that comes into your PayPal account. This way, you can avoid losing access to your funds for 180 days.

Re: If you love your bank, set it free

Richard Thripp — Sat, 13 Feb 2016 05:43:43 -0000

I am not sure why there were "associated late fees" unless Hobby was not making the minimum monthly payment on her BankAmericard; a better approach would be to pay the fee and then try to get the money back, rather than ceasing payment on the card and risking many fees.

This is definitely a case where improved financial literacy is needed; hopefully Hobby will get that as a volunteer for Elliott.org. It appears she wrote to the bank 6 times in 6 months and they kept refusing to budge, but she didn't complain to the CFPB, BBB, state AGO, etc.

With banking, there are a lot of fees that are charged to the customer even for things that aren't the customer's fault. Consider a bounced check—the receiving party loses the money AND a $15.00 returned item fee, even though it is not necessarily the recipient's fault. While we can argue that check recipients should vet their payors better, that is not a panacea.

With credit cards, we see some of the same things—foreign transaction fees, having to predict whether certain purchases will be coded as cash advances or purchases, and having to predict how certain merchants will be coded for the purposes of earning categorical rewards (e.g., does a 7-Eleven without gas pumps count for a credit card's 5% cashback at gas stations?). In all cases, money is on the table to be lost, and it's difficult or impossible to tell ahead of time how the transaction or check will be processed.

Of course, Bank of America is also known for it's horrible customer service. Once, when I was using my BankAmericard at TigerDirect.com for the 5% cashback offer, I ordered a bundle item, which TigerDirect splits into two charges. Bank of America only paid the 5% on the smaller charge, since it was limited to a single "purchase." Trying to convince them of their error by chat and on the phone was like trying to explain economics to a 2-year old. I just gave up on that one.

Re: Is Facebook about to shut down my account?

Richard Thripp — Fri, 12 Feb 2016 15:25:58 -0000

If someone signs an email "Bob and Mary Smith," I would just reply something like "Hello, Bob or Mary Smith." It reminds me of joint checking accounts where there can be an "Or" or "And" between each name, and each has different implications ("Or" means one of two can sign the check and "And" means both must sign).

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Mon, 08 Feb 2016 13:09:45 -0000

Google AdSense does this too. At least they don't ban you from all their services, taking your email and other personal data with them. Amazon apparently banned my Local Register account and then decided 3 months later to ban my customer account as well. If I had a Prime membership, the remaining time would be gone, with no refund. If I had Kindle or other download content, it would be gone, with no refund. If I had an Amazon Seller account, my account balance would be gone, with no replies to inquiries. Luckily I only had the gift card balance, small ALR balance (which has been refunded), and textbook rental.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Mon, 08 Feb 2016 13:05:27 -0000

If you'll notice, Amazon has a lot of programs such as "Amazon Allowance" that encourage people to keep gift card balances on their accounts. Of course, Amazon operates with small profit margins and uses these balances as free cash flow. However, having an Amazon gift card balance can be bad for your financial health—in fact, most people either lose 0% or 100% of their gift card value. I would expect the takeaway to be, "don't keep a gift card balance on your Amazon account," but none of the commentators got that, even though the Amazon blacklist is a well-documented issue (anecdotally) that began in 2008 and is evidently still ongoing:

http://slickdeals.net/f/908...
http://www.fatwallet.com/fo...

Of course, the above forum topics have the usual contingent of people speculating on Amazon's behalf and in Amazon's defense.

But for a consumer advocacy site, I am surprised at the vitriol here. I guess it would have been better to not reply to any comments.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Mon, 08 Feb 2016 12:49:22 -0000

They don't expire gift cards because new laws no longer allowed it. That's why most gift cards don't expire now. If the laws didn't change, Amazon would probably have continued having gift cards expire.

They have actually been giving my the "silent" treatment again, you might say. They haven't agreed to my request for court fees and for them to recognize the return of my textbook, and that was 5 days ago. I was told more time was needed. My account is temporarily unbanned, but they've promised to re-ban it after I spend my gift card balance, or alternately I can request a check, which I did. If I was to shop on Amazon with the gift card balance, I would actually be prohibited from returning any items; even defective or damaged items (Amazon does not allow blacklisted customers to return items).

As for gift cards, the gift cards from Amazon, eBay/PayPal, Starbucks, and Target are especially risky. With eBay/PayPal, the risk comes when you have partial gift card balances, which are permanently linked to your PayPal account—if they decide for any reason to permanently limit your PayPal account, you can never use the balance again. With Target, the risk is with security of their mobile app. With Starbucks, they will just take all your stored gift card balance if you happen to buy a Starbucks gift card that was acquired with an allegedly stolen credit card, even if it's from Raise, Cardpool, eBay, etc.

With Amazon, we see there is a "spillover" effect where you could get banned and have your gift card balance taken, even for activities they don't like on services unrelated to their retail operations, such as Amazon Local Register. Does the same apply for Amazon Associates, Amazon Marketplace sales, Amazon Web Services, etc.? Surely, many people who are blacklisted can't complain publicly, because they have done nefarious things such as using a fake identity (because they have already been blacklisted for life before), drop-shipping, etc., and Amazon gets to keep all their gift card balance by a process that stinks like civil asset forfeiture.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 23:14:19 -0000

Your point is? Complaints to the Attorney General, CFPB, BBB, etc. are not legal actions according to http://www.thefreedictionar... and http://thelawdictionary.org...

Of course, now I have been enlightened that threatening to report a corporation for violating your rights immediately disqualifies you from receiving your property. I will contact Christopher Elliott immediately to have this article removed.

Amazon, of course, is golden when they lie about an Account Specialist getting back to you, and when they misinform their call center reps to pretend a blacklisted account has an "issue" with your address not matching a credit card, which is clearly a deceptive practice.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 18:25:15 -0000

You can read about the silent treatment in my paper trail, which I also provided to Elliott.org and have made public: http://thripp.com/files/ama...

The issue is that Amazon CANNOT legally void a gift card balance for any violation of its terms. In fact, they would probably only have solid legal ground if it was an issue of a stolen credit card, identity theft, internal theft, or a customer-initiated chargeback regarding the gift card balance.

Gift cards CANNOT be voided easily.

Reward points, frequent flyer miles, and promotional offers CAN be voided easily. However, gift cards CANNOT be voided easily.

This is why Amazon's actions are so egregious. In fact, many of the issues Elliott.org deals with are far less clear-cut than this issue, involving travel issues that are resolved by VOLUNTARY concessions being made by airlines or hotels, rather than concessions that are actually mandated by law—in this case, refunding (or allowing the use of) a gift card balance.

Just because Amazon's gift cards are "applied" to your account does not mean they are any less legally protected than gift cards that are not bound to an account.

Surprisingly, internal theft has actually been an issue at Amazon. Their fraud prevention processes leave a lot to be desired. Source: http://consumerist.com/2015...

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 18:01:37 -0000

I saw that too. They were trying to compete with PayPal and Square. All such services deal with plenty of fraud and abuse. There are also lucrative cash flow opportunities for the corporation, derived on "float" and by holding balances for 90–180 days, which PayPal, Square, and Amazon are all known for. Amazon probably gave up since it's a hard market to succeed in.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 17:54:23 -0000

Amazon gift cards can be purchased on one Amazon account and redeemed on another. Once the code is redeemed, it acts as a stored balance on that account and cannot be transferred to another account. However, prior to being redeemed, Amazon gift cards are transferable. Like most gift cards, they are intended to be given as a "gift" to another person.

If you read more closely, you'll see that I purchased gift cards using a Discover Cashback Checking debit card, not a Discover credit card. I know, many people are not aware, but Discover Bank offers checking and savings accounts including debit cards with actual PIN numbers, all on the Discover payment processing network.

Also, your understanding of cash advances is ludicrous. There is no burden on the card user to ensure that purchases are being encoded "correctly" as cash advances.

Also, the purchases I made with my BankAmericard were using a credit card, but it is perfectly legitimate to go to Sears, Kmart, or any other store and buy gift cards with credit. These purchases are never coded as cash advances. Using Amex Offers, Citi ThankYou Premier Offers, BankAmeriDeals, the iBotta app, or other promotional offers to obtain a statement credit at a retailer by purchasing a gift card is perfectly legal and generally only in violation of vague and legally unenforceable terms with the card issuer involving their rights to terminate accounts for any reason at any time.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 17:45:46 -0000

The small gift card amounts were purchased by me with a Discover Cashback Checking debit card, not a Discover credit card. It was not to trade them in for cash, and it is not possible to trade Amazon gift cards for cash even in California, due to how they are applied to your account as stored value. Discover Cashback Checking was offering a promotion where account holders would get a 20¢ bonus on every debit card purchase, up to a maximum of 100 transactions per month, during the months of May, June, and July 2015.

I most certainly am a customer of Amazon and have made other purchases on my account. Also, I have not been a "problem" customer who returns items frequently. However, even violations of Amazon's Conditions of Use do not legally entitle them to seize a gift card balance from a "problem" customer, except in specific circumstances involving fraud.

I suppose you would side with Groupon in the amply documented cases where they have punished customers who bought more than 1 of a "limit 1" promotion by not delivering the item, continuing to charge their debit or credit card, and refusing to provide a refund?

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 17:19:40 -0000

There are literally hundreds of accounts of people filing small claims suits against corporations that result in the corporation not showing up and default judgment being made. It is very expensive to send a lawyer across the country for a small claims suit. Also, many jurisdictions won't even allow lawyers in small claims court, so corporations would have to send a non-lawyer representative in those jurisdictions.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 17:17:22 -0000

You are equating buying multiple small gift cards with legitimately acquired funds using a debit card in my name to bank robbery. You would claim to be a lawyer and descend into libel? I can see why you do not use your real name here.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 17:13:00 -0000

I already called 206-266-1000 several times in late August and September 2015. I asked for the Executive Customer Relations department on two separate calls and was transferred to the overseas call center. I was never able to get in touch with the ECR department until now, thanks to Jessica Monsell of Elliott.org's messages to Amazon employees on LinkedIn. Evidently, the ECR department will not take complaints unless an Amazon employee refers them. How's that for customer relations?

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 17:10:34 -0000

Ludka v. Memory Magnetics Int’l (2nd Dist. 1972) 25 CA3d 316 is the case that Paul Muschick's article cited, where a court ruled service was valid even though it was upon a receptionist who threw the papers in the trash.

According to https://www.ic3.gov/faq/def... the ICCC just refers cases to local law enforcement, who have pursue at their discretion. Filing a complaint with the ICCC is quite different from filing a police report directly with my local police or the police in Seattle, WA.

I don't think you have an accurate understanding of the case at all. Why would attorneys show up and defend Amazon in small claims court in Florida for a $500 issue? How would the attorneys get around the fact that I have statements acknowledging the gift card balance on record, and saying it won't be returned? You do realize this is a small claims suit, not a full-fledged civil suit, correct?

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 17:01:52 -0000

Eamon unfortunately is not actually understanding my case correctly; he still doesn't understand that I have NOT filed a police report, and also seems to misunderstand the issues involving gift cards and believes I obtained gift card by theft, which is false.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 16:28:15 -0000

I agree! My take on it is that Amazon's profit margins are razor-thin, and they behave this way to increase their free cash flow. Google AdSense does it too; there are plenty of reports of people getting banned the very month they reach the $100 payout threshold. PayPal does it; their standard practice is to hold your money for 180 days when they ban you, and many bannings appear arbitrary and unfounded. Amazon is more commonly known for holding Marketplace Seller account balances for 90 days, and there was even a class action lawsuit about it in 2013. While these corporations hold your money, they use it to fund their operations, interest-free.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 16:25:17 -0000

I have never banked with HSBC, but I have dealt with a lot of backward banks since I sometimes open accounts when promotional incentives are offered. I would definitely just drop them. You probably have another credit card that doesn't charge foreign transaction fees. Discover is a good one, but isn't widely accepted in many foreign countries. But there are others that are Visa cards.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 16:21:56 -0000

I have sued Amazon in small claims court. I was unsuccessful at having the summons served, since I filed it wrongly. However, the judge was sympathetic at the pre-trial conference and approved my motion to amend the suit.

Small claims court does not typically award prosecution costs. I actually have a strong case because what has been stolen is a gift card balance. If we were dealing with a rewards balance, promotional gift card, credit card points, or frequent flyer miles, my case would be weak, since those can be seized easily. However, gift cards have many legal protections.

Amazon's Conditions of Use enforces binding arbitration, but allows for small claims suits. It would be difficult to pursue a civil lawsuit since I already agreed to binding arbitration by using Amazon's services, and such clauses have been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 16:17:05 -0000

Thanks—of course I know that! I always read the comments myself after reading an article like this, so I want readers to see that there is a reasonable response to the dissenting opinions from commentators. I will definitely not continue replying to comments that address repetitive issues, and most of the issues have now been covered.

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 16:15:18 -0000

That is excellent you got your money, finally, but it should not have been that difficult with HSBC. The bad part of this is that you are a highly educated consumer. What about all the consumers who don't know about consumer protection laws and get ripped off because they never petition for redress? I have met people who didn't ask for their money back due to debit card fraud, and the bank never offered, even though the bank had to issue them a new debit card!

Re: Amazon gives customer silent treatment after closing his account – and us, too

Richard Thripp — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 16:13:05 -0000

Of course—there are plenty of reasons I could be banned, but none of them provide legal support to steal a gift card balance, and it's not fair for me to have to speculate on Amazon's behalf because they wouldn't provide an explanation.

Also, the fact that Gabriele Masili, the Global Director of Digital & Device Customer Service at Amazon.com, Inc., thought my issue was important enough to refer it to the Amazon Executive Customers Relations team, and that they are now offering to refund the gift card balance, is evidence that they were in the wrong.

We are dealing here with a clear-cut issue. Just imagine if you went into Walmart and they escorted you out of the store and removed your Walmart gift cards from your person because they said they can refuse business to whomever they want? Is it that different just because it's online and they don't have to say it to your face?

Amazon, in their replies to the FL AGO, WA AGO, and BBB, used this condition to justify withholding my gift card balance and banning my account:

“Amazon reserves the right to refuse service, terminate accounts, remove or edit content, or cancel orders in its sole discretion.”

This is an illegal act.