Disqus - Latest Comments for natamllc

Re: Todd Bentley : Critical Christians : Bereans : Heresy or Simple Theological Disagreement?

natamllc — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 19:31:23 -0000

ok, I don't as well and I have never met the man, but I have met his
personal fruit in those I know and love!

Now what?

Re: Todd Bentley : Critical Christians : Bereans : Heresy or Simple Theological Disagreement?

thenonconformer — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:55:49 -0000

>>just to touch on what now is apparent and apparently missed or not embraced during the outpouring, that is, Apostles "equip" the Saints, establishing them in the "Truth" so that the body builds itself up to stand against the wiles of the devils. How did C Peter Wagner, Bill Johnson, John Arnot and others miss or seemingly not discern Todd's personal situations? These are the "seasoned" Apostles who embraced and ordained the young man into this equipping work as an Apostle of God for such a time as this outpouring. We can see now that it has come out some of what Paul was getting at, the heart of the matter when we read these things, "not to be tossed to and fro", carried about by winds of doctrines, i.e. angels, speaking the "truth" in love, "be joined together spiritually", as one body, "each part working properly" with one another, "not walking in futility of mind", not being darkened in mind, not being alienated and so on. It's all right there. And somehow with regard to this young ministry of Todd and his wife, you would think the well seasoned men of God, those Apostles and Prophets who are supposed to have known them well would have had more discernment?

Many of you know that an extraordinary healing revival has broken out in Lakeland, Fla., led by Todd Bentley. Unfortunately, there are some who have criticized or opposed this revival. History seems to be repeating itself. In order to stand with Todd and support Todd and this mighty work of God, Dr. Peter Wagner made the suggestion that some of the leaders of the Revival Alliance network, commission Todd as an evangelist and as a revivalist. Bill Johnson, John Arnott, and Che Ahn (three of the leaders of the Revival Alliance) have agreed to come for this special commissioning service. This is not an ordination service, since Todd is already an ordained minister, but this is to show apostolic support for Todd and to state that this revival is from God. Therefore, Todd would like to invite as many friends and partners to come and celebrate with Todd as he is commissioned by these apostolic leaders. [ InJesus.com, June 23, 2008 ]

From my own personal encounters with John Arnot and his organization I do not even rightfuly believe he is a true christian firstly

http://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/why-...

Re: Steve Strange : Concerns : Revival : Offensive : Discernment

r180 — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:40:42 -0000

The Galations passage is excellent. Very good.

A major point is that with the invent of the internet we can feel like we have a front row seat into someone's life, when in actuality we don't.

Those who are closest to Todd will have a much better chance of discerning than we would. And still, even they won't have 100% of the data.

To simply watch someone's platform ministry and make final judgments about it is very tough if not impossible to do.

Keep in mind that very mature Christians have discerned differently than other very mature Christians. Some have more grace and mercy than others. Some may hear one things said and discount everything else that is said. Others handle it differently.

Re: Steve Strange : Concerns : Revival : Offensive : Discernment

natamllc — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:59:39 -0000

John,

ok, ok, I don't want to go to far into all this unless you do?

I will quote Scripture and leave it at that. You undoubtedly will have the last say on this one.

I make a judgment based on what I know. Neither Peter or Bill can side step the realities here. None of those folks can who were present that evening of the alignment "into" the Apostolic.

If Todd would submit to my ministry the same Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus would apply for him and me. If he saw his way to your ministry, it would be the same.

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

And John, I do agree with you. You have to admit when you go back and review that alignment service and all that was done and said in the Name of the Lord, there were plenty of ministries present. All of them were there. I guess just from the face of it, they all lacked a discerning abilitiy. That does not appear to reflect the Scriptures now does it?

In the public arena, appearance is everything, right?

Here is what is appropriate and I am certain you will agree, yes?

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.
Gal 6:5 For each will have to bear his own load.

Re: Steve Strange : Concerns : Revival : Offensive : Discernment

r180 — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:32:22 -0000

To attempt to prove one's discernment is better than anothers is fruitless. I could easily accuse someone of not discerning what I sensed about Todd, and they could do the same right back to me.

There are all sorts of people out there who love to out others, to prove and display their weakness, to warn the general public and to trumpet their own special insight into a matter.

You simply have to know that an accusation (which is a demonic strategy, by the way... he's the accuser of the brethren) against two Christian men that states very coldly that they have no regard for Jesus or our Heavenly Father? It's simply reckless.

You can't know that. You might have an opinion, but you didn't state it that way. You made the final judgment on their personal relationship with Jesus. You said they have no regard for him! Very, very disturbing.

We need the fear of God on this. Rick Joyner had a prophetic warning- those who expose will be exposed. We should be broken, trembling and humbled by all of this.

Re: Steve Strange : Concerns : Revival : Offensive : Discernment

natamllc — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:22:03 -0000

John,

I stand by what I wrote. I spent a lot of time in prayer about this, especially after reading Wagner's repsonse and Johnson's long video posted on his website.

Both these men are backtracking and are not repentant about it. I want them to repent and to humble themselves.

A lot of folks follow these men without any doubt. You can tell me they are innocent in this can you?

Where's the beef when the error comes out?

If you cannot see the error, maybe you do not walk in Godly discernment.

Have you read Wagner's letter? Have you watched Johnson's video? Where is John Arnot in this or Che An? There were a lot of Ministries up on that public stage and it was all on video broadcast for all the world to see this alignment service.

Discernment is God's Gift, not man's ability. These men need to humbly admit they were caught up in something and it was not True Discernment under the power of the Holy Ghost.

The Apostle warns us about "denying" the Power, remember?:::>

2Ti 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2Ti 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Re: Steve Strange : Concerns : Revival : Offensive : Discernment

r180 — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:13:20 -0000

You said:

Both these men show no regard for Christ or Our Heavenly Father...

Yikes. That's an irresponsible and unnecessary comment. Be careful.

Many are using the D word (discernment). However, I have yet to hear anybody skillfully explain what they mean by it.

Most are using insufficient means to draw their conclusions from. I've heard people mention his tattoos, his piercings, his demeanor, his mention of angels, etc. To use that data alone in our attempt to discern is strikingly insufficient.

Yes, we should discern. Yes, we can use, to a degree, our five senses and our intellect when attempting to discern. However, we can't stop there. Spiritual things are discerned spiritually.

Additionally, we as the general public, and even those who are overseers, won't have 100% of the scoop on an individual.

To simply 'sense something' and use that incomplete information to attempt to shut someone down is inappropriate. Did Todd do anything that was revealed and obvious during the Lakeland Outpouring that would have warranted his removal?

I don't think so. Of course, God did what only God can do- he did expose Todd's failure for the sake of healing, restoration and holiness.

Suspicion is not enough to shut someone down. If we are suspicious, we should simply intercede. If we have specific information, quietly share it with that person, and if he's unrepentant, take it to his leadership. Then, and only then, should any accusation be made public.

Re: Steve Strange : Concerns : Revival : Offensive : Discernment

natamllc — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:02:43 -0000

The big issue for me is this idea of DISCERNMENT.

God learns nothing, a poet wrote, if He did, He would not be "all-knowing". Our God is discernment with a Capital "D".

This whole thing should cause a True "emergent" discerning again.

I am more discerning of C. Peter Wagner and Bill Johnson now than ever, that I have seen the video of Johnson and read the response of Wagner yesterday.

Both these men show no regard for Christ or Our Heavenly Father, cf., Eph. 1:3. Both these men put their best face on their own "lack" of discernment that was simply not of God. They should repent of it, instead what do have coming from their camps? We read a very carefully worded address of the problem that has now come out from Wagner. And we have bold face and position carefully crafted and articulated coming out of Johnson. They are self justifying their position forward thinking to minimize the effects that will certainly tarnish their ministries for ordaining Todd Bentley there at Lakeland.

I remind our Bible Students of two Scriptures found in Revelation one:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

In this verse, the Alpha is referring to the "first" letter of the Greek alphabet and the Omega, the last.

and

Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,

However the words here in Greek for "first" and "last" have another sense and meaning that reflects Christ's discernment.

The word in verse 17, "first" in Greek is:

πρῶτος
prōtos
pro'-tos
Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.

"last" in Greek here is:

ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

I see neither part of the work of the Sanctification Work of the Holy Ghost at the first, that ordination service when C. Peter Wagner was commanding the "alignment" of Todd Bentley to the Apostolic speaking prophetically mind you also, or now by Wagner's letter of pure "justification of himself" trying to minimize the backlash that undoubtedly will occur because of his "lack of discernment" and Johnson's video from Bethel Church's website, which equally rises to the level of "self justification".

Where is their humility and responsibility for the lack of discernment from them? I hope someone from this group that ordained Bentley will step to the plate and be like Christ and die to self and bring True Honor and Glory to God for whom Christ died that we might have eternal life? Where is their coming under their own "error" in discernment which clearly when you put those two verses, Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 1:17 into the mix? If True Godly discernment would have prevailed the "alignment" service would have taken on an entirely different direction for Todd Bentley, as in, no, we cannot lay hands on you at this time, in fact, it would be wise for you, Todd, to seek to be well established in Truth and not be caught up with the winds swirling around Lakeland at this time.

Again, "hind sight" has a way of helping us see what we "should" have discerned about it.

Now this event does not derail Christ and the coming Kingdom of God in the lives of His Chosen in the world today.

Christ is not sitting on His Throne wringing His Hands and sweating right now wondering what His next move is going to be anywhere in the world among 6 billion living souls today.

No, my encouragement is this, you should resolve it to press on to maturity and stop being blown about by every wind of doctrine, yield to the Sanctification Work of the Holy Ghost, find that place where obedience to the Faith once delivered to the Saints establishes you in Christ and Him crucified in the midst of an out of control world following after the devil, the god of this world system.

Heed this and walk it out in Christ according to His promise of the Holy Ghost's power and not the phantom powers of one's own mind will and imagination:

Act 20:32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Come face to face with God today through the Cross of Christ, receive the Word of Grace and let these two build you up and give you the "interitance" Christ died for you to receive daily among those who are "sanctified".

And this too, daily, daily, daily:

Act 26:16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
Act 26:17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles--to whom I am sending you
Act 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

Re: Todd Bentley : Critical Christians : Bereans : Heresy or Simple Theological Disagreement?

natamllc — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 23:40:25 -0000

John,

your point is well taken. I am mindful of this verse:

Act 17:13 But when the Jews from Thessalonica learned that the word of God was proclaimed by Paul at Berea also, they came there too, agitating and stirring up the crowds.

We do see this agitation and stirring up the crowds "against" the move of God as you have noted. So now what?

Having agreed with your point I want to step back and observe some things in this matter.

I watched the youtube "ordination" where there were supposed "seasoned" men of God embracing Todd and ordaining him as this "young" Apostle.

In Ephesians, without a doubt, as you must embrace and agree, here the "very well seasoned and oiled" Apostle lays out a gridiron so to speak for building the Church.

Some of the points I want to touch on to make my point. First, Eph. 1:3!!! Yes, it is all about Him according to Christ! Second, Eph. 2:10. Can we as "monday morning judges of Sunday understand some of what is now occurring? Yes, yes we can as we shall see. Third, Eph. 3:8-12. It seems to me there was a lack of discerning or hearing the Holy Ghost "discern" this outcome and so quickly after the outpouring began. That causes me to pause and ask, what got swept up and overlooked seeing it is clear the function of the mature Body of Christ in manifesting the manifold wisdom of God to the rulers and authorities in heavenly places? Fourth, Eph. 4:11...., just to touch on what now is apparent and apparently missed or not embraced during the outpouring, that is, Apostles "equip" the Saints, establishing them in the "Truth" so that the body builds itself up to stand against the wiles of the devils. How did C Peter Wagner, Bill Johnson, John Arnot and others miss or seemingly not discern Todd's personal situations? These are the "seasoned" Apostles who embraced and ordained the young man into this equipping work as an Apostle of God for such a time as this outpouring. We can see now that it has come out some of what Paul was getting at, the heart of the matter when we read these things, "not to be tossed to and fro", carried about by winds of doctrines, i.e. angels, speaking the "truth" in love, "be joined together spiritually", as one body, "each part working properly" with one another, "not walking in futility of mind", not being darkened in mind, not being alienated and so on. It's all right there. And somehow with regard to this young ministry of Todd and his wife, you would think the well seasoned men of God, those Apostles and Prophets who are supposed to have known them well would have had more discernment?

So, what am I saying? My mentoring Apostle taught about Ministry for the Lord, that if you cannot do simple things like clean chicken shacks after they make messes and enjoy serving chickens, you will not make it in ministry with people continually under the condemnations of the devils as they are graciously and lovingly equipped to come out of darkness and enter into light and be converted from being children of darkness to children of Light to grow in Grace and the Knowledge of the Truth to stand in the Power and Might of Christ and the Holy Ghost.

It is sad, but what would you expect of immature Christians not fully vetted by Seasoned Ministers of Grace and Mercy and Peace? Don't you suppose those guys who ordained Todd are well seasoned, oiled Ministers of the Gospel? And as I noted about Paul there in Acts 17, he was not able to stop the agitation and stirrings against the Gospel outpourings of his day!

Let the antics of the immature be noted as you have done so well herein. Let's forget what is behind and now press on to maturity in Christ seeking the Wisdom of the Holy Ghost and His Favor so that what Paul indicated will come front and center, full circle mindful still of that human quality, immaturity:::>

Act 20:32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

and most certainly this too:::>

Act 26:16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
Act 26:17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles--to whom I am sending you
Act 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

Let's continue helping our people turn from darkness to light, from the power of Satan to God that they too might receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by Christ and the Holy Ghost for the Glory of God.

One last verse then:

Psa 50:15 and call upon me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me."

According to Prophesy, troubled times are ahead! Let us resolve for ourselves and our people to "call upon the Lord" in the day of trouble then seeing He promises He will deliver us and we will indeed glorify Him!

Re: Leadership : How to have a strong and effective staff

r180 — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 20:02:14 -0000

I'm having a hard time understanding the point of your post. Are you making an argument for servant leadership? If so, that's right on!

Re: Leadership : How to have a strong and effective staff

natamllc — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:27:53 -0000

The "fact" that God needs nothing from us is apparent. What seems to be missing is the fact that we need God and the "gifts" of God to mankind that God has so Graciously provided mankind that are resident in us. Because all have sinned and "fallen" short of the Glory of God who does not need us, God now gives us to our neighbor who DOES need us! It is a calling of "self" sacrifice for the edification of our neighbor.

I have found the most self centered persons are the least likely to help others who truly need help. Me first, after I am taken care of, then and only then will I think about others! How sick!

The world groans and travails the Apostle wrote for The Church. The Church is the Divine expression of Our Self Sacrificing God through His Son. The Church afterall is the Home of God Himself, God Our Heavenly Father, God, the demonstrator of selfless love and self sacrifice, Jesus Christ and God the Holy Ghost who continually without fault sanctifies, sanctifies, sanctifies our dirty feet morning by morning so that we get to start over each and every day serving our neighbors seeing, as I said already, because God does not need us, our neighbors do! We are the Most High's dwelling place!

If those five principles for living help you John serve your neighbors, your immediate neighbor being your wife and then, and then, and then as the circle enlarges outwards, then they will be beneficial to the work of the Kingdom. If after taking them into your bosom for your own edification, who is benefited?

I leave this one admonition of Paul the Apostle's though for your consideration as undoubtedly it is there for you too. If you do not have these sorts of coverings working in your life continually I don't suppose the God of Peace will be present after you leave:::>

Php 4:9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me--practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

Re: Todd Bentley : Bill Johnson : Support Video

michael — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 13:53:34 -0000

Well, at least we can safely conclude "God", the Prophet, was not speaking to Bill Johnson giving him a "heads up" as to the future content of Todd Bentley's life.

Having said that, I am reminded of the John Newton quote: "I am a great sinner" "God is a great Savior".

If ever there is a time for Our Great Savior, isn't it ALL THE TIME seeing Christianity preaches the Resurrection of Christ after He personally became our sins too?

I would warn Bill Johnson to not go to far down that road of spiritual warfare to justify Todd Bentley's failure in marriage.

It could be a simple thing as Todd married the wrong woman, a woman, God, who wanted Todd in the front battling forces of evil on levels that required someone else as his soul mate battling forces of evil with.

We all make bad decisions. Apparently it is now out that this was a bad decision.

The idea is this about marriage: What "God" has joined together, let no man put asunder or cause to cease to be". [loose paraphrase]. I am not convinced that God endorses a marriage He is not sanctioning. Does God provide His Grace and Wisdom when such a marriage exists? Yes.

So, for me, I want to see restoration of both these young people. If they divorce and do not come to settle their differences it will not hindered the Work Jesus is doing. It will only hinder the work each of these young people are called to do for Jesus as He builds His Church.

Hinderances do exist. Without the Grace, Knowledge, Mercy, Wisdom and Understanding coming from God who sits in Heaven, we all are doomed at every step of our Christian Walk.

Let the Spiritual restore the fallen and all guard our own hearts lest we are tempted by our own faults and quick judgments about the fallen:

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.
Gal 6:5 For each will have to bear his own load.

Re: Mobile Podcast : Todd Bentley Controversy : Divorce

natamllc — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:29:08 -0000

HEAVENLY FATHER

MY HEART IS FIXED

WHO DID THIS?

YOU DID THIS
YOU ALONE

HERE IS MY PRAYER FOR THOSE WHO WILL AGREE
Deu 32:7 Remember the days of old; consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you, your elders, and they will tell you.

Deu 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

Deu 32:9 But the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

HEAVENLY FATHER
THERE COMES A FIXED TIME FOR ALL THINGS EVEN THE BORDERS OF THE PEOPLES ACCORDING TO THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF GOD

THIS IS THE PRAYER OF THE SONS OF GOD
WE ARE YOUR PEOPLE TODAY
AS KING DAVID REQUIRED AS SONG TO BE SUNG SO WE PRAY TODAY FIXED AS IT IS IN OUR SPIRITS FROM EVERY QUARTER OF THE GLOBE, THE PLANET AND INSIDE EVERY NATION

LET THE HEAVENS BE GLAD
Psa 74:1 A Maskil of Asaph. O God, why do you cast us off forever? Why does your anger smoke against the sheep of your pasture?

WHY DO YOU DO SO LORD GOD?
BECAUSE NO FLESH SHALL GLORY IN YOUR SIGHT
EVEN THE FLESH OF CHRIST WAS PUT TO THE SMITTERS, BEATEN, BLUGEONED AND BRUISED BY THE HANDS OF GODLESS MEN
Psa 74:10 How long, O God, is the foe to scoff? Is the enemy to revile your name forever?

HOW LONG O GOD WILL WE SIT SILENT AND YOUR NAME BE REVILED BY HUMAN KIND?
HOW LONG O GOD? HOW LONG?
Psa 74:16 Yours is the day, yours also the night; you have established the heavenly lights and the sun.

Psa 74:17 You have fixed all the boundaries of the earth; you have made summer and winter.

Psa 74:18 Remember this, O LORD, how the enemy scoffs, and a foolish people reviles your name.

FATHER
YOU HAVE FIXED ALL THE BOUNDARIES OF THE EARTH
NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST YOUR FIXED WORD SHALL UNDO WHAT YOU HAVE DECREED AND DONE ALREADY
RUSSIA IN THEIR PURSUITS SHALL NOT OVERCOME YOUR FIXED WORD
THE UNITED STATES OR KOREA OR ISRAEL
Psa 119:88 In your steadfast love give me life, that I may keep the testimonies of your mouth.

Psa 119:89 Forever, O LORD, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.

Psa 119:90 Your faithfulness endures to all generations; you have established the earth, and it stands fast.

AND SO I PRAY
AND SO I SAY
BECAUSE FOREVER, O LORD, YOUR WORD IS FIRMLY FIXED IN THE HEAVENS
SEND THE FIRE
SEND THE FLAME
SEND THE WATER
SEND THE RAIN
Ecc 12:10 The Preacher sought to find words of delight, and uprightly he wrote words of truth.

Ecc 12:11 The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd.

Ecc 12:12 My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

AS YOU HAVE FIXED ALREADY YOUR WORD FIRMLY IN THE HEAVENS AND ON THE EARTH
SO I SAY
SO I PRAY
THE PREACHER SOUGHT TO FIND WORDS OF DELIGHT AND NONE CAME
SHOULD THE PREACHER NOT SPEAK THE FIXED WORD OF THE LORD?
Jer 31:35 Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- the LORD of hosts is his name:

Jer 31:36 "If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever."

HEAVENLY FATHER
THESE THINGS ARE SO
SO WE PRAY FOR THE PEACE OF JERUSALEM THAT FALLEN CITY
THAT CITY ONCE YOUR DELIGHT, A DELIGHT NO MORE
NOW NEW JERUSALEM SHALL APPEAR
READIED AS A BRIDE FOR HER MAKER
Act 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

Act 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.

Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

HEAVENLY FATHER
WITH PURITY OF FIRE AND FLAME
READY THE BRIDE FOR HER MAKER
SEND THE FIRE AND FLAME
PURGE HER AND PURIFY HER UNTIL SHE IS HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, HOLY NOT ON HER OWN ACCORD!
Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Act 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

THAT FIXED DAY HAS BEEN DECLARED ALREADY
THE DAY COMES AND WITH IT GREAT GLORY
AND SO I PRAY
AND SO I SAY AS THE WORD OF THE LORD
Psa 50:14 Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving, and perform your vows to the Most High,

Psa 50:15 and call upon me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me."

JESUS
SO YOU PRAYED
SO YOU SAID
SO WE PRAY
SO WE SAY
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again."

Joh 12:29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him."

Joh 12:30 Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

CAST SATAN OUT
CAST SATAN DOWN
BRING HIS REIGN TO AN END
BRING THE BEAST'S REIGN TO AN END
BRING THE FALSE PROPHET'S REIGN TO AN END
BRING DEATH'S REIGN TO AN END
BRING HADES' REIGN TO AN END
THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES WHEN THE BRIDE SHALL BE READY
Dan 9:16 "O Lord, according to all your righteous acts, let your anger and your wrath turn away from your city Jerusalem, your holy hill, because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and your people have become a byword among all who are around us.

Dan 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, listen to the prayer of your servant and to his pleas for mercy, and for your own sake, O Lord, make your face to shine upon your sanctuary, which is desolate.

Dan 9:18 O my God, incline your ear and hear. Open your eyes and see our desolations, and the city that is called by your name. For we do not present our pleas before you because of our righteousness, but because of your great mercy.

Dan 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive. O Lord, pay attention and act. Delay not, for your own sake, O my God, because your city and your people are called by your name."

AND SO I PRAY ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF THE LORD THAT A CERTAIN AND FIXED DAY FOR THE LORD TO RETURN HAS BEEN FIXED JUST AS THE APOSTLE SAID:::>
Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Act 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

THE DAY OF THE FIXED DECREE SETTLED IN THESE HEAVENS AND ON THIS EARTH
THE DAY OF THE LORD
THE DAY OF THE LORD
Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

Dan 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

AND SO THE DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME AND PUT AN END TO SIN
THE ANNOUNCEMENTS ARE READIED
THEY SHALL BE SENT
THEY SHALL BE DELIVERED
WHO SHALL HEAR
WHO SHALL RECEIVE AND REPENT?
Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

AND INDEED
WE SHALL PARTY, PARTY, PARTY, PARTY!
WE SHALL REJOICE IN OUR LORD FOREVER AND EVER
MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Psa 119:89 Forever, O LORD, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

AMEN

Re: I’m torn : Todd Bentley : Divorce : Revival : Lakeland : Concerns : J. Lee Grady : Steve Strang

natamllc — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:42:00 -0000

Type your comment here.

Re: I’m torn : Todd Bentley : Divorce : Revival : Lakeland : Concerns : J. Lee Grady : Steve Strang

natamllc — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:40:17 -0000

Type your comment here.

Re: I’m torn : Todd Bentley : Divorce : Revival : Lakeland : Concerns : J. Lee Grady : Steve Strang

michael — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:34:38 -0000

John,

let's take a deep breath and breathe!

You just wrote this:

I watched this happen with Jimmy Swaggart and more recently with Ted Haggard. People love to find fault and mock and say, "I told you so."

Now I know I am not the brightest bulb in the room but what was that but what you are right now doing to these brothers? You are finding fault with them.

This just does not seem to be the Wisdom from above:

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.
Jas 3:18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Here, let's touch this and do it so that we too can have follow our work in Christ "the God of Peace":::>

Heb 12:15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;

Ok, let's see to it that this brother and sister, Todd and Shannon do not, do not, do not fail to obtain the grace of God!

I have been in ministry over 30 and travelled to many countries, 11 war zones, seen it all, experienced a lot and am still flaming for His Glory.

I recommend you heed Paul the Apostle and find a place with him here:

Php 4:9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me--practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

Here's my prayer:

LORD JESUS, LET YOUR WILL BE DONE AND YOUR BLESSED KINGDOM OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, PEACE AND JOY COME IN THE POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST

TAKE THIS LEMON SITUATION AND SWEETEN IT SO THAT WE CAN ALL BE REFRESHED WITH HOLY GHOST FILLED LEMONADE.

BRING PEACE TO TODD.
BRING PEACE TO SHANNON.

BRING PEACE TO THE HEARTS OF ALL WHO ARE PERSONALLY GOING TO BE CHANGED BY THE OUTCOME OF THESE EVENTS.

WE HOLD TO THE PROMISES OF SCRIPTURE, PROMISES YOU HAVE FILLED OUR OWN HEARTS WITH BELIEVING.

NOW GOD OF HOPE, FILL US WITH JOY AND PEACE IN BELIEVING THAT WE WILL NOW RISE UP AND ABOUND IN HOPE IN THIS SITUATION IN THE POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST.

AMEN

Re: Just sitting here on the couch- and very hungry

natamllc — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:01:26 -0000

John,

yes and amen.

Here is a bold prayer for the nations. Accept it into your spirit as well and you will burn as you desire. Don't stop standing now as it is time for all of God's Children, bought with the Blood of His Son to gain His strength and might and power and overcome by fresh winds of the Holy Spirit.

The prayer:::>

HEAVENLY FATHER
WE ARE INDEED UNCLEAN AND UNHOLY CREATURES IN OURSELVES
IT IS THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB THAT WASHES US WHITE AS SNOW

YOU GAVE COMMAND OR DIRECTION OR INSTRUCTION TO ADAM AND HIS OFFSPRING:
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

TO HAVE DOMINION, TO BE FRUITFUL AND RULE, TO SUBDUE...

HUH?

WHAT IS OUT THERE LORD THAT WE ARE TO SUBDUE IT?

SUBDUE WHAT AND WHY?

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."

Psa 110:2 The LORD sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your enemies!

LORD,

TO SIT AT YOUR RIGHT HAND? WHAT FOR AND WHY?
YOU WILL MAKE OUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR US?
HUH??

YOU SEND JESUS CHRIST TO RULE IN THE MIDST OF OUR ENEMIES!!

Dan 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

LORD GOD
YOU HAVE MADE US A PEOPLE FOR YOURSELF, RANSOMED BY HIS BLOOD AND NOW SETTING US UP AS THIS KINGDOM AND THIS PRIESTHOOD SO THAT WE WOULD DESTROY, BREAK IN PIECES AND BRING TO AN END THEIR REIGN, THE KINGS IN THESE DAYS, DESTROYING THEIR AUTHORITY, NEVER TO BE REMOVE BUT TO STAND FOREVER AS THIS GLORIOUS BODY OF CHRIST
AND SO WE PRAY
AND SO WE PROCLAIM AND SAY

Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,

Act 2:35 until I make your enemies your footstool.'

Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

YES AND AMEN LORD GOD ALMIGHTY
YOU HAVE DONE IT
CHRIST HAS FINISHED IT
THE HOLY GHOST IS LIVING IT NOW THROUGH OUR LIVES TODAY
WE ALL ARE THE WITNESSES OF IT
HE IS EXALTED TO THE RIGHTEOUS RIGHT HAND OF GRACE, MERCY AND PEACE
SEND THE FIRES OF THE HOLY GHOST
SEND THE FLAMES OF THE HOLY GHOST
SEND THE WATERS OF THE HOLY GHOST
SEND THE RAINS OF THE HOLY GHOST
CHRIST HAS BEEN MADE BOTH LORD AND CHRIST, ....HIM "WE HAVE ALL CRUCIFIED"

Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

YES LORD GOD ALMIGHTY
CRUSH SATAN
CRUSH HIM
CAST HIM DOWN
REMOVE HIM
Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

YES LORD GOD
IT IS CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD
WHO WILL BRING SATAN DOWN
CRUSH HIM
CRUSH HIM UNDER OUR FEET
THIS HOLY CHRISTIAN CHURCH
THE HOLY DWELLING PLACES OF THE MOST HIGH
Heb 2:13 And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again, "Behold, I and the children God has given me."

Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

Heb 2:15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

Heb 2:16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.

Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

YES LORD GOD ALMIGHTY
WE DECLARE YOUR NAMES TO THE NATIONS
THIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM SHALL BE PROCLAIMED TO THE NATIONS AND THEN THE END SHALL COME
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,

Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

YES LORD GOD ALMIGHTY
SHAKE THE NATIONS
SOFTEN THEIR HEARTS
LET THE HEAVENS BE GLAD
LET THE EARTH REJOICE
LET MEN SAY AMONG THE NATIONS
THE LORD REIGNS
THE LORD REIGNS
THE LORD REIGNS

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."

Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God,

Rev 11:17 saying, "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign.

Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

AMEN AND AMEN
DESTROY THE DESTROYERS OF THE EARTH!
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!"

AMEN AND AMEN
WE REJOICE TO SEE HER DAY
GIVE JUDGMENT LORD
GIVE JUDGMENT
DESTROY THE DESTROYERS OF THE EARTH!
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again."

Joh 12:29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him."

Joh 12:30 Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

AMEN AND AMEN
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

AMEN AND AMEN LORD JESUS
COME!
AMEN

Re: Ministry Video : Revival Preaching w/Music & Photos

natamllc — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:32:23 -0000

I have a concern as I listen to the "voice" in this video. It sounds different than the "Voice" of the Lord.

I would ask if this "measuring ruler" is the "basis" for wanting to move forward.

Three verses:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Act 20:33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.
Act 20:34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me.

Psa 44:1 To the choirmaster. A Maskil of the Sons of Korah. O God, we have heard with our ears, our fathers have told us, what deeds you performed in their days, in the days of old:
Psa 44:2 you with your own hand drove out the nations, but them you planted; you afflicted the peoples, but them you set free;
Psa 44:3 for not by their own sword did they win the land, nor did their own arm save them, but your right hand and your arm, and the light of your face, for you delighted in them.
Psa 44:4 You are my King, O God; ordain salvation for Jacob!

I just have a sense that there is something missing in light of these Scriptures above?

Can you help me in this?

Do you see that we do nothing when it comes to "helping" others "know" the Lord?

Are you prepared to practice Pauline dynamics as he clearly lays out there in Acts 20?

Do you see Whose Arm does the work as is being laid out clearly there in Psalm 44?

Here would be my call to you John:

Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

If your fire and passion comes from this cool place then it truly is of the Lord.

By His Grace
Peace!

Re: Burton Lakeland Video : Resurrection & Revival Prayer WEDNESDAY

natamllc — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:06:29 -0000

What is hard for me with all this is I have been used of God laying hands on the sick and seen healings and I have seen miracles and I also was used of God but wasn't aware of being used, mind you, it would have gotten up in my mind and I would have been able to float away because of the one time I am thinking about when miracleously healed a crippled girl, dumb from birth, and none of those verifiable times of True Healings and miracles that I could list on my resume' were ever like what is presented here.

I ask myself, "why is that"?

What this "move" is upon the human soul seems more in line with unlearned and inexperienced power and authority handled by the will of man and not by the active Power of God or the Holy Ghost.

I have been around the world more times than I care too think about traveling now. I have been at the highest and the lowest in several of these countries. I came in the Name of the Lord. I had daily encounters with God in His Holy Presence. And I found His emphasis was nothing in the number of what is brought to the reader's attention hereon.

I am not certain that all this is a move of God.

Let me use Scripture and ask a question. A couple of well know verses, one attributed to the Holy Ghost and the other attributed to Jesus Christ. Both verses are written in the "now" context quite literally similar to the video of this woman being prayed for that resurrection fire and life would awaken the dead baby in her womb.

Just for the record, I was asked to lay hands on a dead eighteen month old boy in the presents of his mother, father, both sides, grandparents and about 20 or so villagers on an island in the South China Sea and after laying hands on him, he came back to life! You could hear a pin drop after that event! That night the entire village came to hear me preach as well villagers from all the surrounding regions. I had gathered there two groups, those who believed and came to receive and honestly, another group who were so full of rage and hatred for me being present that group were throwing stones at me. I had to be surrounded and extricated from the mass of people so as not to be harmed!

Here are the verses:::>

Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
Act 13:3 Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.
Act 13:4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus.

In this verse we either agree His audible voice or that "sense" of His Presence and still small voice was loud enough that everyone was of one heart, mind and soul when He commissioned those two and sent them forth completely in one accord with the Holy Ghost in that "now" moment.

Act 14:3 So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Act 14:4 But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles.

Here is a more telling "record" of "how" Jesus Himself is actively envolved in His servants "now" life going about building His Church.

For me, those two verses capture what really is our "now" in this present evil age. Doesn't it you dear reader?

I wonder if we might be caught up in a "now" need and are not "letting" the Holy Ghost or Jesus have control of our lives?

I don't know about you, but from what I am sensing, this is a flaky kind of revival or it's the real deal.

If it the one or the other, as always, time will tell.

In the meantime, let's all adhere to this admonition from the Apostle:::>

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
1Ti 6:13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,
1Ti 6:14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Ti 6:15 which he will display at the proper time--he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

Re: Paul Cain : Lakeland Revival : Todd Bentley : Restoration : Covens in the Church

natamllc — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:11:35 -0000

John,

in light of your words here about Paul and his action I submit the Word of God for my response:

Psa 139:1 To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
Psa 139:2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar.
Psa 139:3 You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
Psa 139:5 You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it.
Psa 139:7 Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Psa 139:10 even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me be night,"
Psa 139:12 even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you.

I do not know Paul Cain personally but I do know some who do. Paul prophesied about me to one of my long time friends.

He, as we all, need to tread lightly hotly pursuing this admonition:::>

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.
Gal 6:5 For each will have to bear his own load.

I know this response is somewhat abstract. But, hey, you are a man of the Spirit and the Spirit of the Lord speaks to you. Consider my response and the Lord indeed will give you understanding.

regards
michael

Re: Are you SERIOUS?! : Tithing! : Money! : Giving!

r180 — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:38:24 -0000

The saddest part of this is that people would make an excuse not to give. To give 10% is a wonderful and powerful way to live! There is literally no good reason not to do it. Why would a cheerful giver ever look for an excuse not to give? It makes no sense. Even if one believed the tithe to be optional, it wouldn't make sense not to tithe. Giving is always a good thing. We are called to give tithes AND offerings. Well above 10%.

Unfortunately, most (not all) of the people I've met who attempt to make a case against tithing are disgruntled. They tend to have issues with how other people (pastors, etc.) used or misused the money they donated. So, they decide to remove themselves from their leaders, often leave church and make the statement that they are called to give as God leads.

The problem? There are many. One is, statistically, those who don't believe in tithing give much less to the Kingdom than those who do tithe.

Also, the tithe isn't a 'law' issue. It predated the law by 400 years. Therefore, it was a precedent that was given prior to the law and it has lasted well after the law.

Jesus promoted the tithe in Matt 23:23.

Also, it's a matter of control. With the tithe, God determines where our giving starts... with no tithe, we maintain control. People, especially in this nation, really don't like the idea of serving or submission to authority. So, the thought of giving money to another person (though they are giving to God, not a person) causes inner tension. Some people will only tithe if the money is used according to their wishes.

Unless one can find a clear command not to tithe, one should never assume tithing has been done away. The Bible is one complete book. The New Testament contains the same laws as the Old. Jesus did not do away with God’s Law. He expanded it. He said, “. . . That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 5:20).
Paul said that those in ministry are to be supported by the body. It's not optional.
1 Cor 9 makes it clear that the ministry and ministers are to be financed by the body... and the body is to bring their offering to the altar.
Heb 7:8- Melchizedek received Abraham’s tithe. The Hebrew writer shows that Melchizedek is a prefigure of Christ. We can conclude that just as Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek we give a tithe to Christ who is declared to be living.
Note the comparison regarding the words "all good things" in Gal 6:6 and Deut 26:11-12.

Re: Are you SERIOUS?! : Tithing! : Money! : Giving!

natamllc — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:02:19 -0000

I believe you are incorrect regarding message on tithing and extravagant giving. Agreed, not until Christ rose up, stood up, came alive after dying on the cross a human's death, did the "Law" pass.

There is nowhere in the Bible after Resurrection and the Life where we are commanded to "tithe". If there is, give the proof text for your assertion.

Here is a Truly Biblical understanding of "giving".

First consider Acts 20:

Act 20:33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.
Act 20:34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me.
Act 20:35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

That's Saul of Tarsus, the Hebrew of the Hebrews, according to the Law, blameless! Where in there is a tenth ascribed to the Christian giver?

No, rather, consider who is doing what there in Act 20. It is the strong among us, ah, like the Ministers, those with Paul, who "worked" hard with their hands supplying their own personal needs and the needs of those "less fortunate". When have you seen that in this day and age?

Next, not that the Ministers should go without. No, the ox has a right to eat while working, treading out the grain.

Now consider Paul's word from Galatians to confirm this:

Gal 6:6 One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.

What does this teach? Tithing? No. It teaches blessing those who have spiritually blessed you.

Paul in another place teaches that it is not to be considered "ungodly" for one who "sows" spiritually to reap materially. However, there is no prescription for the "tenth" giving.

Rather, as in another place, we are to save up and make available our "excess" to assist the pressing needs of the poor brethren we have a relationship with.

How come then we have all this getting rich and being blessed by leadership stuff being spoken about continually and ofter all the while the poor and sick among us go without?

So, in conclusion, I believe I can rightly say, you are on a weak and thin foundation to assert this sort of teaching.

Let me leave you with one additional rationale:

Act 18:1 After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth.
Act 18:2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them,
Act 18:3 and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.
Act 18:5 When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Paul was occupied with the word, testifying to the Jews that the Christ was Jesus.

What do we find herein with these Scriptures then?

Paul, mighty Paul, Paul the wealthy one, so wealthy, he was being hit upon for money:::>

Act 24:24 After some days Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, and he sent for Paul and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus.
Act 24:25 And as he reasoned about righteousness and self-control and the coming judgment, Felix was alarmed and said, "Go away for the present. When I get an opportunity I will summon you."
Act 24:26 At the same time he hoped that money would be given him by Paul. So he sent for him often and conversed with him.

What does the Scripture teach us then? Paul came to Corinth and found Acquila and Priscilla, who were in their day, building contractors/tent makers. He picked up his trade and working with his hands to provide for himself and for those with him and to go beyond and teach the Scriptures. He worked for himself so he could bring the Gospel free of charge to those less fortunate.

Once Tim and Sil came along, Paul occupied himself with the teaching of the Word even more so. The implication is that Tim and Sil picked up the slack for Paul to free him us to preach and teach the Word more freely. This sort of free service and giving is based on the relationship of these guys on a very deep and intimate level.

I do not say that a man should not receive income from preaching and teaching. No, rather, as Paul also taught, let him who labors hard at it receive double honor. It should be left up to those who control the purse strings what "honor" is so that it becomes clear without dispute what double honor is.

Double honor, ah, twice the amount.

Now, let the reader hear and understand, the Church has gotten so far off on this matter of giving and receiving, it's going to take some serious heartache on the part of some, unwise, when things bottom out and the money partners stop sending in the support money.

Get a job. Go to work, work extra hours and work hard, save up and have an excess and be guided with wise counsel where to give and who to give too.

If you want a return on your money in giving, my advice is this here::::>

Pro 19:17 Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will repay him for his deed.

How much different is that than the appeals we hear today in most churches? I would acknowledge it's very different.

When is the last time your pastor stood up and said something to this effect: I work and make a good living. I have some excess, is there any poor among us in need? Come and see me after the service is over.

Should we not rather consider this admonition instead?

Heb 12:15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;

Yes, see to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God! When you do this, you will have so much money made available to you to be a steward over in extravagant giving you will be continually happy and full of Joy!

Let me ask one last question? ARE YOU FREE TO GIVE? Yes, yes, yes. Will God be manipulated by some foolish idea that if you give you will receive back a hundred fold? No, no, no.

Again, consider this Wisdom of the Ancient:

Pro 19:17 Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will repay him for his deed.

Re: I had a dream last night that shook me : warning : preparation

natamllc — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:29:58 -0000

Here's a "Word", from me, ....but a Word of God nevertheless:

The Lord is about to change the way your money comes and goes. When money comes in by deceits and lies it is foul. Money goes out just as it comes in.

Here is the Way of the Lord for His Ministers of Grace, Mercy and Peace:

Joh 17:18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me.
Joh 17:26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

And you will know it is the Lord's doing when you experience Him His Way:::>

Act 20:32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
Act 20:33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.
Act 20:34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me.
Act 20:35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

Be warned that if your income is coming off the backs of those you have deceived, you will reap a reward you sowed.

It is time for the Righteous to rise up and lay their lives down, working with their own hands supplying their own needs and carrying along those they are equipping and they all giving of their surplus to those who need and will receive and be healed by the True Grace of God so that they too will rise up and reign in Life through Jesus Christ the Lord.

Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Heb 12:15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;

Ask yourself, ARE YOU LIVING TO SEE TO IT THAT NO ONE FAILS TO OBTAIN THE GRACE OF GOD?

Heb 13:9 Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.

Judgment now comes upon the Beast, the False Prophet, Satan, Death, Hades and all whose names are not written in the Book of Life once He brings His judgment on the Church in these days.

Get ready, Look up. He comes to cleanse His Temple! And if He begins with us, what will the outcome be for the world?