Disqus - Latest Comments for jwinton

Re: A Poem For Mother Teresa

paulmunn — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:45:30 -0000

Those are interesting insights, Jason (and also a bit confusing, I agree). It certainly isn't easy to interpret. And I should say that I don't mean to critique Mother Teresa's spiritual life at all, not knowing her personally, and having no access to her real experience and situation.

I only mean to address certain interpretations that might be drawn from her situation and letters. Like the implication that God wanted her (and perhaps us?) to experience the spiritual state of the people she served (an experience of spiritual abandonment by God?) so she could better empathize with them. That seems to make sense. But do we ever see this in Jesus' ministry? What I see is Jesus demonstrating a continual intimacy with his Father that he then freely offered to those he served, inviting them (and us) into his spiritual experience. Not the other way around.

Then there's the apparent presentation of God as asking continued service from her (us?) but withholding the joys of his presence. This seems to result in a much more selfless and heroic servant, who continues to give to God without getting much of anything back. But, again, is this the way Jesus ever presented his Father? What I see from Jesus is a God that gives us everything, with overwhelming generosity, demanding no payment from us. I don't see God trying to build servants that need little from him, but servants that are completely dependent on him, with little strength or heroism of their own ("so that no one might boast in the presence of God") who's great deeds point not to human capability but to the God to does great things through feeble human beings. Jesus' poverty and weakness exemplify this for me (and Paul also presents himself this way often).

These interpretations are easy to draw from Teresa's experience, and people might want to emulate them since Teresa is so highly respected. But I really think they point in the opposite direction from what Jesus showed us. They glorify human beings rather God.

I don't blame Teresa for this, since she didn't intend to reveal her confusing struggles. But I can see why people in the church institution might value servants that continue tirelessly in dedicated service no matter what their spiritual state...

Re: A Poem For Mother Teresa

jwinton — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:12:30 -0000

First of all, to answer your questions about what sounds like good news: felt closeness with God and felt assurance that He will never leave us is certainly good (the best?) news. Reading her letters, though, it is clear that she never had a doubt that God was in, supporting, guiding, and inspiring the work. The most confusing aspect of these letters, which I'm sure supports the point you're trying to make, is that she didn't feel the Presence which she saw others experience through the MC. She wondered at many points whether she was deceiving others and even wanted to tell them how desolate she felt. She never did go through with it, explaining that when she would go to do tell God would shut her mouth (spiritualizing a negative consequence of sin or revealing the true origin of her "darkness"?).

The most fascinating thing to me (one that gives me courage) is that she was willing to give whatever He would take (assuming that, in fact, He did take away His felt presence for so many years). She eventually came to understand that she was experiencing the same spiritual state as the dying and destitute in the slums and could better empathize spiritually with their experience because of it, which I think she clearly did. Mother Teresa's experience of spiritual absence was obviously problematic and even disturbing, something she obviously deeply felt, especially after years of close felt union with Him. But why didn't God answer her prayers to take it away or to bring His felt presence back? And why did she appear to have such tremendous faith (her response in the pain) while admitting to a wasteland of spiritual feelings?

Re: A Poem For Mother Teresa

paulmunn — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:15:08 -0000

To connect the absence of God's presence with "take up your cross and follow" seems not quite right to me. Certainly Jesus predicted that we would face persecution from others for following him, and this is the experience of the cross I think we can expect. But this is neither self-inflicted asceticism nor spiritual abandonment.

The moment on the cross when Jesus did feel God's abandonment is (as I understand it) the one part of Jesus' life that we need not experience. Ever. Isn't that the point of "I am with you always"? Jesus' took the consequences for sin (if you don't mind me using such traditional language) so that we need never be cut off from God. He's the answer to our alienation from God, not a cause of it. I understand and have experienced periods where it felt God wasn't there ("dark nights of the soul"), but that was only because I was still learning how God worked and temporarily couldn't perceive how God was present. And then I did perceive and felt closer to God than before.

What concerns me in glorifying a decades long experience of God's absence is that it basically says that we should press on no matter whether we feel God is with us or not. It spiritualizes and explains away disturbing feelings of distance from God. But (apart from the one moment on the cross, which we need never imitate) Jesus never expressed such distance from his Father. What he demonstrates is a life lived in constant and intimate contact with God, moment by moment doing and saying what his Father told him to do. Isn't that so? Isn't that what you want?

I don't think we should ever carry on with "the work," even if it seems to be good, Christian work, if we have the continuing sense that God is not with us in it, supporting us, guiding us, inspiring us. Because it's not really about "the work," is it?

It's about growing in our relationship with God, drawing ever closer to him, and letting others know that the same is offered to them. And that we never have to be cut off from God any more. Isn't that really the good news of Jesus?

Re: A Poem For Mother Teresa

jwinton — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:24:49 -0000

Thanks for pointing out the context, Paul. I thought about putting a link to the book in a note above the poem, but decided against it (for aesthetic reasons), figuring folks would likely know what I was doing or be able to find out. I would definitely recommend reading the book itself (Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light--The Private Writings of the Saint of Calcutta).

I guess I do admire certain parts of her response to "the darkness," though I'll admit to feeling confused reading about the utter desolation she described to her directors. She apparently did not see, feel, or even "know" God's love for many, many years. Her experience of union with God, which had been common, and the very Voice which had, in fact, spawned "the work" (as she liked to call it), almost suddenly disappeared when the work started. The paradox, of course, was that as a result she constantly felt a deep longing for her spouse Jesus, which altogether overshadowed (but did not minimize) the doubt and painful absence. It was as if the darkness became her answer to the longing she felt to love Him and the poorest of the poor (whose experience was strikingly similar to hers). As above poem reads, she came "to love the darkness"--not because it meant something special for her but because it nourished a longing she had for Him and a desire to refuse Jesus nothing. That's probably what I admire about it. I know what you're thinking, "Well, what don't you admire?" But don't blame me, I'm an artiste. :)

Other than that, though I think her experience shouldn't be thought of as a model for all people everywhere, I do think it is consistent with Jesus' teachings (i.e., taking up one's cross and following Him). If it's the amount of time that it apparently lasted which bothers you, I'm not sure I have an answer to give. Like St. Paul wrote, "Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church" (Colossians 1:24).

Lastly, it seems to me Mother Teresa understood and lived the "good news" precisely in her willingness to accept this painful sacrifice as a small (perhaps even insignificant) token of blind faith, creating her deepest longing to be with God, and propelling an even more authentic identification with Christ in the work she was convinced (with profound faith?) He created and sustained. She apparently did this happily, as "God's flower of the field."

Re: the least of these my brethren

paulmunn — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:54:49 -0000

I guess I think all of Jesus' followers have moments when we believe and live as he did. (Some more than others, perhaps, like Francis and Teresa.) But then we also sometimes make choices that are not much like Jesus' life. To discern that should only point us back to Jesus himself as the one we follow and help us adjust our choices to better ones, seeing that the limitations of our past (and the limitations we see in the lives of others) need not continue to bind us. Jesus always offers something more.

So I try to find inspiration and encouragement in those recognizable appearances of Christ in the lives of his body on earth (even if no one person embodies him perfectly). What's important is the signs of Jesus' presence and that it's him, not us. And I also like that he can work and be seen through anyone.

As for the stranger in the story (who I envisioned as homeless himself), I guess I'd say he was in the soup kitchen for a cup of coffee. And maybe a little evangelism.

Re: the least of these my brethren

jwinton — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:54:04 -0000

One other thought, or rather, a question or two. The stranger in this story is pretty elusive and was run out of the kitchen. Why was he in the kitchen in the first place? And are there any modern examples of people who follow Jesus' way, the way that Jesus did? There's a part of me that thinks, "If Teresa and Francis weren't prophetic enough to preach 'the powerful discovery' you mentioned above, who can?" I know that is sort of a dull question (making them into more than examples?), but I want to be inspired/encouraged that Jesus takes on disciples today who believe and live the way he did.

Re: the least of these my brethren

jwinton — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:17:07 -0000

I like what you say about Jesus being both personally and organizationally poor. From what I can tell in reading about the first ten years of M. Teresa's MC, they did not have much (if any) substantive institutional support. She was given a designation of "sister," which might have granted her legitimacy but did not come with any material support. In fact, she writes that some in the convent where she came from had called the work she was doing "the devils work." But, in Christendom, we often "saintify" those who provoke us in order to pacify our conscience and our hearts.

Re: the least of these my brethren

paulmunn — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:37:28 -0000

Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan tells us to help whoever we meet in need, whether they're our "brethren" or not. So I think Teresa was definitely following Jesus in that.

The soup kitchen approach, though, always includes the ongoing need for fundraising and also maintaining the approval of the surrounding community who allows the ministry to continue there. And that raises difficulties. It's hard to find parallels with Jesus' life and ministry. Jesus remained personally and organizationally poor (thus avoiding the temptations of managing the accumulated resources of a charitable institution). And the people who came to Jesus experienced the unique and powerful discovery that God had helped them not through the wealth or power of human beings but through their own faith in God. "Your faith has made you well," Jesus often told them. Material goods passed on through a soup kitchen doesn't give that.

I think Mother Teresa (and Francis also) were obviously inspiring and good examples in many ways. I do wonder, though, whether certain aspects of the way they (and their followers) served people was more socially acceptable, allowing them a level of approval and support that Jesus didn't get. Jesus was crucified by the religious leaders of his society. Teresa and Francis, after their deaths, were quickly granted the official status of sainthood.

Re: the least of these my brethren

jwinton — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 11:21:05 -0000

The thing I like about this story is how it "turns the tables" on the question, "Would you treat Jesus like this?" It makes me wonder how the stranger responded to her when she caught up to him.

But I'm puzzled as well. Does this story deconstruct soup kitchens? Or does it deconstruct majority power structures/ownership, which many times are a part of feeding the hungry? I couldn't help but think of Mother Teresa when reading this story. She seems to have had a very mature understanding of the "least of these" (similar to yours?). Yet she fed and clothed and housed and visited the "least of these" whether they were His brethren or not. I just read a passage in Come Be My Light (her private writings before and after she began the MC) where she references a dying man who asks God for a few more weeks to live because he just learned how to suffer for God (versus simply suffering for a disease), thanks to Mother Teresa. And, of course, Mother Teresa was used this way as a poor person herself and often times without the physical means readily available to carry it out. Any thoughts about the way she lived out Jesus' life and example?

Re: Greed, America, and the Rich Young Ruler

jwinton — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 11:03:42 -0000

Where is Paul Munn? ;-)

Re: By what authority?

paulmunn — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:57:31 -0000

That "leading by refusing to lead" thing sounds interesting. I've wondered if a way forward for our community here might be for the sole remaining elder to step down (she certainly deserves a break), so others would have to step up and not keep depending on her to carry things or looking to her for the next step. I may suggest it to her.

And I am quite willing to help encourage all of us to step into the leadership that God has gifted us for, and be active in seeking (and following) those callings in ourselves and others.

Re: By what authority?

jwinton — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:29:27 -0000

I have been thinking through this issue a lot recently due to my role as "the leader" of a small community. I decided to try something different over the summer. It occurred to me (watching a Peter Rollins video) that the best way I can "lead" them is by refusing to lead. So, for the summer, there was no "formal" leadership. Surprising to me, many folks commented afterward that they felt abandoned and lost, that they realized how much they desired for me (as their leader) to lead them versus God or His gifts in folks like them. Some of them even attributed my "leadership" to situations and decisions that I had nothing to do with--i.e., an attempt by a few members to forcefully lead while I was gone (which turned out to be an empty "authority" anyway).

Another example has come out of this recent experience. A few of the members asked if I would officiate their wedding. They wanted me to get ordained online (which I declined) and to formally pronounce them as husband and wife. At first, considering the short notice (about 3 weeks) and the lack of in-depth conversation about marriage and their relationship, I wanted to say no. After considering it more, I came to the conclusion that I could offer them three options I would be willing to support them with. One, they could postpone the wedding, which would give us time to talk and make it less frantic. If they chose that one, I would do the formal officiating, though without the "authority" to sign a state marriage license (i.e., traditional wedding). The second option was to think of me as the "host of the ceremony" instead of officiator and to invite God, primarily, and the community to affirm and bless their union. This would involve some of the traditional parts of a wedding as well as to include many non-traditional parts (such as no marriage pronouncement from any humans). The third option was that I would help them find someone else to "officiate" within the bounds of what they wanted.

With surprisingly little hesitation, they chose number two. I'm glad they did. It's going to be very interesting, to say the least.

Re: La Iglesia Emergente

jwinton — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 19:14:19 -0000

Hola, me gustaría conocerte (y cualquier otro/a que quisiera juntar) cuando estamos en Peru. Por ahora vivimos en California, pero vamos a visitar a Lima este Diciembre para la Navidad.

p.d. yo también me sentí raro--a veces sigo sientiendo así. ;-)

Re: Revolutionaries Don’t Have Room For T-Ball…Right?

jwinton — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 18:56:53 -0000

That's hard stuff. I'm not sure I would add anything different than what you've already done. My family of origin has consistently offered me support and criticism, usually in the same breath. They've seen me change and grow and make mistakes. Even when I'm right and doing what I should, they know how wrong I am sometimes and could tell you a list of my sins.

Sometimes I think it would be very significant, and perhaps also a bit shocking, to all of us, if I were to ask them to give me some constructive feedback. And I may do that...someday...become the more vulnerable family member (which might either fuel the fire of criticism or maybe cause it to burn out). Who knows, maybe I would learn something new about them (or even myself).

Re: Revolutionaries Don’t Have Room For T-Ball…Right?

paulmunn — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 17:48:43 -0000

There are many stories from former members online (though it's always hard to tell how objective their accounts are). Issues of shunning and being forbidden to contact family members still in the community seem to be common complaints. I do have some friends who lived with a Bruderhof community for a while, but then something happened and they left, and then were not allowed to visit or contact friends there. I've heard these practices are being corrected now.

Jesus talks about family members rejecting us or persecuting us because of our faith. But it shouldn't go the other way. Paul said to stay with an unbelieving spouse as long as they will have us, they may be converted through seeing our example. Our faith should cause us to love our family better, not punish them.

Re: Revolutionaries Don’t Have Room For T-Ball…Right?

jwinton — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:43:33 -0000

I'm not familiar with that history...are there any links that describe it?

And, I'll be honest, the Arnold quote is a bit hard to swallow for me as well. If the early christians were known for these things, then what was it that made them compelling to the "young people and women"? I've seen many marriages unravelled and then, ultimately, destroyed. I doubt this happened (in the cases I am familiar with) because of any committment to Christ, however, it's hard to imagine much, if any, good coming from that kind of family disruption (no matter who the person claims to follow).

Re: Revolutionaries Don’t Have Room For T-Ball…Right?

paulmunn — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 11:45:22 -0000

Yes, and Jesus offered warnings about family conflict as well (like Mt 10.34-36).

Unfortunately, as the Bruderhof has demonstrated through the sadder parts of their history, the faith vs. family teaching is easy to abuse, turning the "church" into the persecutor of family (rather than the other way around).

Re: La Iglesia Emergente

jwinton — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:40:11 -0000

Por si acaso, les quería enseñar una pagina web que ofrece libros electrónicos en español por gratis. Que lo disfruten.

Re: Revolutionaries Don’t Have Room For T-Ball…Right?

jwinton — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:17:31 -0000

If anyone is interested, here's a quote from Eberhard Arnold (of Bruderhof notoriety). He emphasizes, with some grit, the early Christian's risky committment to follow Jesus, even amidst (or over against) family ties and obligations:

More and more soldiers of the Spirit were sworn to the symbol of the "military oath" through baptism and confession of the truth. This mystery bound them to the service of Christ and the simplicity of his divine works. Through immersion, the believers buried all their ties and involvement of their former lives. Plunged into the water as symbol of the blood of the crucified Christ, the believers accepted as their own the victory of the cross and its power to sever all demonic powers. Now they could live in the strength and future of the risen one. Each believer broke with the status quo and was committed to live and die for the cause. A triumphal march of fighters for the new time invaded the old with truth and power. Through baptism, the Christians found themselves in sharp conflict with their relatives--households were dissolved, whole families split, engagements annulled, and marriages destroyed. Celsus launched bitter attacks against the weavers, cobblers, and tanners who confronted young people and women when they were alone. He accused them of persuading their "victims" with wonderful words to leave parents and teachers in order to learn what was good from artisans in their workshops. Celsus admitted that they often achieved their purpose.

Re: Revolutionaries Don’t Have Room For T-Ball…Right?

paulmunn — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 11:46:57 -0000

Yes, "somehow God will provide" isn't very helpful to others doubtful about the radical interpretations of Jesus' promises. And it wouldn't be good to make ultimatums or push loved ones beyond their limits of faith.

Heather and I waited years to get married (and almost called it off) until God showed us a possible, practical way to work together and live as a family while remaining in Jesus' poor, vulnerable, "give without asking anything in return" way. It's not a certainty, or "proof" that it can work, but it is at least a real, concrete possibility that God showed us. That may be needed to help someone who's struggling to believe. When talking with the Catholic Worker friend I mentioned above (here) I encouraged him to pursue alternative options to present to his wife, so she could see how God might provide and protect their family while they still served the poor.

I guess I would suggest that for anyone. Take the risks yourself (such as exploring a change of work or a new living arrangement), trusting that God will provide in the meantime so your family doesn't have to risk themselves or be deprived unwillingly. Show them how, set the example, rather than pushing them.

Jesus' words to us about the cross were "Take up your cross and follow me."

Re: “The kingdom of God is among you” Four misconceptions about the kingdom Jesus announced

jwinton — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 19:56:51 -0000

Could you say more about that last paragraph? Why start with healing, for example? Was it intentional on Jesus' part to start with one and end with the other?

Re: Revolutionaries Don’t Have Room For T-Ball…Right?

jwinton — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 19:50:12 -0000

As you know, Paul, voluntary poverty and vulnerability are more or less willing states for me, but (in certain cases) not for my wife. She and I have had conversations in the past about God's ability to "provide for the many needs of a family" and, Julissa (my wife), has mostly heard my vague refrain: "Somehow...God will provide for us." She wants more specific answers than that. And, at least some of the time, I get her point. I'm glad for a practical push-back from someone (like her) who knows me so intimately; she's offering me a chance to backpedal (if I need to) and a challenge to discover how genuinely (or not) I believe. The harder part is figuring out where and when to "insist" on a risky decision or family agreement to act. How far would you challenge a son or daughter, husband or wife, to follow a Jesus teaching or his example? The cross doesn't boad well for most families, period. But...

Re: La Iglesia Emergente

jwinton — Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:00:33 -0000

Saludos. Que bueno escuchar de otro escritor interesado en estas cosas. Ya me tienes muy curioso sobre el tema de ¿Dios? con "d" mayuscula. ¿Por qué no entregas algunos artículos a esta revista (Jesus Manifesto) que hize yo? Busca esta pagina aqui para compartir con el editor.

Re: La Iglesia Emergente

jwinton — Mon, 10 Aug 2009 19:44:01 -0000

Saludos, Sebastian, y un abrazo de paz desde California.

Re: La Iglesia Emergente

jwinton — Mon, 10 Aug 2009 19:42:41 -0000

Mi amor, nuestro Dios y su reino (que siempre nos trasciende) tambien nos va a cuidar y dar el esfuerzo para cumplir sus promesas y seguir sus enseñanzas y mandamientos. And you're right...the Christian life is not for wussies!!!