Disqus - Latest Comments for joet

Re: Bush and the Case of the Flying Footwear

joet — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:11:24 -0000

I think ole Bush got off rather lightly.

Re: 2012

joet — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:18:47 -0000

I'm not sure about the idea of churches paying off debts - there is only so much money in the kitty, so inevitably people would try to take advantage of the generosity. But what is undoubtedly true is that churches will need to become much more directly involved in assisting those in financial trouble.

Re: The Real Economic Bailout!

joet — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 03:15:26 -0000

Maria, as I understand it the only places where the facilities (to make this recycled nylon) are big enough are in China. I don't think it is possible to do it on a cottage scale. I cannot rationalise sending trash to China for them to process and send back again. But I like your thinking.

You might be interested in the report we are currently writing about recreating a fashion industry as if people matter - see here.

Re: The Real Economic Bailout!

joet — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:58:05 -0000

This is a question I have been thinking about in some depth. Gandhian (which seems to have much in common with Chestertonian distributionist) economics would suggest that we should use the resources we have around us instead of relying on goods from elsewhere, particularly if imports rely on people working for low wages and in bad conditions.

I conclude that we need to do more to support local production - where wages and conditions are (at least supposed to be) better. In terms of materials, we should be more reliant on things we can grow ourselves, and/or materials we can reuse. This depends on where you are - the US has an enormous (and very heavily sprayed) cotton crop, whereas it does not grow in Europe. However, we do have a huge pile of old clothing which could - if we had the motivation - be remade into new clothing.

Coupled to that, I think we have to ask questions about why the poor person is involved in the supply chain when they see so little of the money generated by the global fashion industry. The long term solution is not to continue encouraging them to overproduce disposable fashion for our markets - which in the process make a very small number of people very rich - but to find more sustainable things to do that do not involve exporting to us.

Re: Africa is not a hospice

joet — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:43:40 -0000

Adam, I think sometimes we fail to really appreciate the mess we are in. It is quite true to say that those of us in the 'West' have wealth the really poor (which accounts for nearly half the world population) can barely imagine. What is less clear is how to make meaningful differences to the poor.

As much as those living in absolute poverty are often tied into a trap, we are tied into a trap of wealth - which can be as difficult to see a way out of. Whilst giving money away might at first glance seem attractive, it also brings many complications - eg who are you going to give it to, how, where and why? You are right - we do need to downsize our living for the sake of the poor, but quite how we do that requires significant prayer and thought in my opinion.

Re: Imagination and the Way of Christ

joet — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 05:15:55 -0000

[sidenote: maybe an editor can hide Jim's address to stop him getting piles of spam?]

Mark, I am struggling to answer your first question. I think because most of our assumptions are not based on words said but on things left unsaid. We assume that everyone wants to progress in their career, that churches need to have buildings, that Christianity is synonymous with being middle class. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that kind of thing, but it just seems to seep into our collective consciousness.

Regarding books, I really like Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close by Jonathan Safran Foer. It is about a little boy who loses his father but finds a clue which leads him on a quest to meet a series of strange and broken people. It made me ache for an end to the journey and to reach home.

But yes, I am also touched by meeting people and their stories of overcoming the odds. Recently I met people from the organisation Servants of Asia's Urban Poor and was touched by their self sacrificial approach. In Egypt, I met Christians who worked quietly below the radar, doing little things which made a real difference to those involved. In India I met a small congregation who were 'doing what they could' - even when that was far less than what was needed to overcome the local issues (yet far more than any other church I have ever seen).

I'm not sure this attitude can be learnt in a classroom.

Re: When is enough enough?

joet — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 04:39:57 -0000

Jason, that is a fair comment. I am not suggesting it as an exclusive theology but as something we need to consider much more carefully than we often do. When such a great proportion of most churches budget is tied into buildings and technologies (video screens, music equipment, etc) asking 'at what point do we stop? ' strikes me as being prophetic but YMMV

Re: When is enough enough?

joet — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 04:35:45 -0000

Maria, I also like new things. But it strikes me that we are in great danger of ignoring the depth of knowledge by continually focussing on the new. Why do we assume that God wants to do a new thing or say a new thing to us? Maybe he has already said what he needs to say and we just need to listen and take it on board.

And I think part of the problem is that sometimes we are too postmodern for our own good. We enjoy the ride more than reaching the destination and avoid having defined targets and goals. It isn't so surprising that we fail to achieve things so often. Once it has become 'old hat' we're bored of it.

Regarding Ipods, whilst there might well be some people who would find this capacity very useful, surely you would agree it is hardly a mass market necessity. People are being sold something they don't really need on the basis it is 'bigger, sexier, shinier' than the last version.

Re: When is enough enough?

joet — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:11:03 -0000

Ben, this is entirely an exercise in self criticism. I know what I am like and I am constantly struggling to keep focused on the community I want to see rather than the next shiny thing.

Re: Economic Matters: Socializing the Risk or Capitalizing the Reward?

joet — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:50:13 -0000

You don't believe in taxation but you recognise courts? How are you proposing to pay for a judicial system without taxation?

Re: A Christian Presenter at Pagan Pride!?

joet — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:12:24 -0000

Interesting. Maybe someone could explain the deal with 'ritual nudity' which I've never understood.

Re: Economic Matters: Socializing the Risk or Capitalizing the Reward?

joet — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:04:42 -0000

$700 billion sounds like a lot of money, particularly if the tax-payer isn't going to get it all back. It would only cost $50 billion to meet all the millennium development goals..

Re: The Death of Evelyn and the Failure of the Church

joet — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 08:43:06 -0000

I understand that one does need the will to change, but how do you know this person didn't have it? How do you know it wasn't taking all of her resources to get through the day? If she was just heavy laden, was she not entitled to a little rest? I'm not convinced the church's role is to change people, but to love them.

Re: The Man and The Couch

joet — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:58:10 -0000

There isn't enough space on the couch for everyone.

Re: The Man and The Couch

joet — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:26:43 -0000

The simple answer is I don't know, Nate. I think things might be better if we sofa-sitters didn't exist.

I like your parable. It reminds me of a script my friend once wrote which was about an evil Blofeld character who had invented the world's most powerful weapon - the armchair. Bond sat in the chair and was bombarded with images of pain and suffering, and ultimately was shaken but not stirred.

Re: Striving for a Just Peace without the Myth of Redemptive Violence

joet — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 05:35:05 -0000

I didn't look closely to the image until you pointed it out, Bill. I'm not sure it has much to do with redemptive violence - presumably those alluded to were not looking for any kind of redemption. It didn't bother me, maybe it should have.

Regarding your other points. First, I find the notion that conservatives 'accept all Scripture as God's word' disingenuous. There are bits which cannot be from God - eg words of Satan.

On punishment: however evil and bad you have been, nothing deserves an eternal (ie never-ending) punishment. It cannot be just as the punishment simply bears no relation to the crime. And if there is no parole, it is also pretty pointless. Nobody gets any better in an eternal hell, there is no hope of any improvement.

On God's plan: if God is omnipresent, omnipotent and outside of time, how can he have been surprised at the results of his actions and/or have acted in a way that he knew would not produce the desired results?

From my point of view, the God who demands a vengeful sacrifice is not the God of Love and Justice. If our atonement theories make it sound like that, they are wrong. Equally, the God who encourages the faithful to take part in acts of barbarity and war cannot be the God we see in Christ the Prince of Peace who calls all who follow to lay down their lives not to lay down other's lives to protect our own standard of living.

Re: My Political Memoir

joet — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 05:18:19 -0000

I don't think there is a problem with wealth creation in a fundamental sense. In a community where everyone has access to exactly the same resources and the same training and ability, I guess there would be no opportunities to make money. Given that currency was originally a proxy for bartering work and products, inequalities are inevitable when some are more driven, intelligent, hard-working, creative etc than others.

However, our economy is not based on rewarding the hard-working. Our economy is based on a global system of Apartheid where those who work hardest see least of the benefits and wealth is mostly accumulated in the hands of the few. If our wealth has been accumulated by the exploitation of people (and/or natural resources, which often goes hand-in-hand), it is undoubtedly a bad thing.

Unfortunately, we all unwittingly participate in this evil, and it is hard to see how to break down the system. The millions who barely scrape together a life so that we can retail products to sustain our standard of living are simply disposable parts of the machinery. Those at the bottom (and there is a big bottom with almost 3 billion people below the $2 per day poverty threshold) are often directly or indirectly victims of our own vanity and greed.

Re: My Political Memoir

joet — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:22:02 -0000

Absolutely. Well said Mark, I respect your position far more for hearing that.

Re: Why I am not a primitivist.

joet — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 03:45:44 -0000

Helpful comments - it seems that the form of church is less important than the ability to hold lightly to the form of church.

Re: The Value of Money

joet — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 05:06:41 -0000

I kinda doubt that Curie or Flemming's work cost the same relative amount. But you are right, it is peanuts compared to the cost of war.

Re: The Style of Subversion Part 2: Resisting Pseudo Alterity

joet — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 03:45:08 -0000

I was thinking about this some more last night. I was thinking that we need a blurring of the lines between consumer and producer. Wouldn't it be great if we could form some kind of international bartering system whereby our friends in the slums of Calcutta produced something that we need and in return we give them something that they need on an equal hour-for-hour basis (if we could think of something useful that we could offer that they actually needed). Or how about finding a group of people who go beyond donations of cash and enter into the lives of the poorest and swap a fixed percentage of their incomes - 10% of the rich for 10% of the poor.

I appreciate these are not-very-thought-out middle of the night ideas.

Re: The Style of Subversion Part 2: Resisting Pseudo Alterity

joet — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:22:09 -0000

Wow, great discussion, thanks Bob for pointing it out.

My problem is that if you go too far down this road, you discover that you are a big part of the problem, and untangling yourself from the effects is a hard job. Personally, I think consumerism is a very good example. I've been talking to a group working in a slum in India. There, a reasonable factory wage is about 1/67th of the British legal minimum wage. It is inconceivable that wages will rise to the levels which would supply anything approaching a reasonable standard of living according to western standards.

The problem is that the people working these god-awful jobs are often producing items for western markets, where 90% or more of the sale price stays in our country - in wages, taxes, profits etc. So in effect, we actually need people who are prepared to work for much lower rates than we would charge to do the same thing in order to maintain our standard of living.

Even assuming the best possible motives for everyone involved in Shane's books, a load of people are counting on big sales for their jobs, pensions etc. I guess the problem is underlined by a Kierkegaard quote I saw today (although I accept that his writing technique is rather challenging, including exaggeration and conflicting arguments)

"The matter is quite simple. The Bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand we are obliged to act accordingly. Take any words in the New Testament and forget everything except pledging yourself to act accordingly. My God, you will say, if I do that my whole life will be ruined. How would I ever get on in the world?
Herein lies the real place of Christian scholarship. Christian scholarship is the Church's prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible, to ensure that we can continue to be good Christians without the Bible coming too close. Oh, priceless scholarship, what would we do without you? Dreadful it is to fall into the hands of the living God. Yes, it is even dreadful to be alone with the New Testament."

Re: Israeli Settlers Attack Palestinian Children, Internationals on Way Home from Summer Camp

joet — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 05:36:40 -0000

OK, you know what, I am going to argue with you.

The last time there was a substantial Jewish population in Palestine was around the time of the Crusades. That is like a thousand years ago. I don't know about where you live, Mike, but if we started reverting back to land ownership rights of a thousand years ago, you would have to be finding Vikings or Celts (or whoever invaded first) with land claims to the land where I sit.

The creation of Israel directly caused a mass refugee exodus of people who had been living in the land for many hundreds of years. Today, several million still live in unsuitable refugee camps. Those who were not expelled altogether were forced into a fraction of their original lands in the West Bank and Gaza. Even this was not enough and the settlers decided to take even more land. This is all inarguable fact. You might not have a problem with a Jewish homeland, bully for you. Several million who it has affected do.

Second, the UN General Assembly has consistently opposed Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Of the 192 member states voting in 2006, only United States, Israel, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, and Palau voted against the motions. Last time I looked, Arab countries did not have a majority of the UN General Assembly.

As to your other points: Iran is not an Arab country, it is Persian. Saudi is a depositic and horrendous regime. This has nothing to do with anything.

Peace and Justice do not exist in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, you are kidding yourself. The settlement exist deep within the green line and outside of the main part of Israel. Whilst they swim in their flush pools, over the walls Palestinian farmers struggle to grind a living. Whilst they drive quickly on settler roads (that only they can use), whole populations of villages are prevented from crossing to their own houses. Thousands of children daily run the gauntlet of checkpoints to get to school. Old people and pregnant women die because soldiers will not allow ambulances to get to hospital. It is true that for most Israelis life is quite good. But for the vast majority of Palestinians life is barely worth living.

Re: Israeli Settlers Attack Palestinian Children, Internationals on Way Home from Summer Camp

joet — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 15:21:24 -0000

I am not going to argue with you. When you have been there and seen the effect that a few thousand people have on millions as I have, maybe you would think differently.

Re: Race Around the Web

joet — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 03:52:23 -0000

Yes I would agree with you about 'agitating for a law', although I don't consider law to be violent in itself. The truth is that we have a law in place and that makes bugger all difference. I would not threaten anyone with death or violence, but would not hesitate to change the economic conditions affecting his profitability, given the conditions he imposed caused such suffering to others.

As Dave Andrews has helpfully said, when faced with injustice there are a range of different approaches we can take - which might include organisation, agitation, confrontation, education, etc. The problem is the mindset that suggests the best solution to any problem is violence (or actually a fixed mindset that suggests any one approach is always correct).

As I think we are broadly in agreement, I can only apologise to everyone else for exploring this interesting tangent!