DISQUS

I have been enjoying reading this discussion. I might want to add some things later when I have the time and if it hasn't been said already. I just want to push back a bit on one of your statements Paul.

The difference is, I didn't come seeking "community." I was seeking Jesus and found his Body. Which is the right way to do it, I think, because we should be followers of Jesus first (and completely), right?

In my opinion, wrong. God brings us to himself in a variety of ways, none of which is more holy than the other. And my guess is that before you were actually seeking Jesus for Jesus sake, you sought God in ways that were much more self centered. I remember reading a church father discuss this, I can't remember which one at the moment.

Paul,
The reason I bring up the example of Jesus before his ministry again is because I find it is more consistent with the rest of scripture than the point of view you have. You pointed out that “Jesus participated in the economic system of his time, too, to some extent (i.e. buying food).” and “I never questioned the use of money. Jesus used it himself.” Using money to buy food is engaging in a contract in the same way that someone gets paid for their work. The fact that Jesus bought things is an implicit affirmation of wages not a gift economy.
Jesus further affirms wages when he sends out the seventy two disciples. He tells them not to take a purse when they went out preaching but to stay at one house and accept the hospitality offered because a workman is worthy of his wages. The hospitality that the disciples receive is their pay. Paul reaffirms this when he writes to Timothy.
While I think that a person could live a faithful life practicing a ‘gift economy’ I don’t see that Jesus advocated one type of economy over another. I find it very distressing when the Bible is used in such a manner. I believe that we tread into the dangerous waters of heresy when we try to use the Bible for what it was not intended, whether that be science, history, economics, or geography.
What I find is that Jesus’ teachings are emphasizing our attitude towards God. It is not just adultery that is sin, but lust. It is not just murder that is sin, but hatred. Jesus is sold out on loving God with all his heart, mind, soul and strength and advocates removing any hindrances to doing so. He uses extremes to illustrate his point, advocating cutting off hands, feet, and plucking out eyes. Selling all we have, and giving it to the poor, is another example of getting rid of something that would cause us to sin; something where we might worship instead of God.
Not having money does not change our attitudes. Not having a job does not change our responsibility to work. I believe that when Jesus says ‘Freely you have received, freely give,’ he is asking us to give generously what we have receive as a gift. I do not believe that he is necessarily advocating a lifestyle that is dependent upon gifts.

Paul,
Your statement: "What he seems to have been free from is the necessity of selling his time and work to others in order to meet his own needs. This is an amazing freedom." Seems to imply that you assume that before Jesus started his preaching ministry he did not sell his time or work to meet his needs or the needs of his mother and siblings. Or that the example of his paid work before his ministry was not part of the example we should follow.

I read your post about your difficulties with the word responsibility. I find that the recognition of our responsibility for our actions is what brings us to repentance. I believe that when God gave us dominion over his creation, he was giving us responsibility for it. I will agree that we cannot fulfill our responsibilities without his Spirit, but there is still an onus on us to live faithfully.

As our children have grown, we have stressed to them that 'freedom comes with responsibility'. Driving responsibly does not diminish the joy of driving, or the freedom to drive. But just the opposite. We don't have to worry about running into someone, getting pulled over, or having an accident when we drive responsibly. The same can be said of work, those with the most responsibility have the most freedom (and usually the most pay). Those that take the most risk get the most reward.

Whether we get paid for our time and effort or it is a gift does not determine whether or not it is a form of play, an act of faith, how we free feel. It is our attitude that counts. When we are responsible with what God gives us (time, money, other resources) then we can have confidence that he will provide what we need. A good example of this is test taking. When we are responsible to study then we can relax when taking the exam, having confidence that God will bring to our mind what we need.

To live responsibly with what God has given us takes lots of creativity (play? work?). I have spent the past three years (at least) at the poverty line because my husband is starting a BAM. I have struggled with whether not spending money is more an act of faith because I'm exercising self-control or I should exercise faith and spend the money, trusting God will provide when the time is right. I have done a bit of both. God has been opening my eyes to his provision, in a way that I had not seen before. Everyday, I am learning about opportunities that are being wasted. I am learning to re-evaluate what I really need, and let my need drive my shopping rather than what I want.

It is not just the middle class American who has a problem with overspending, a lot of poor people have the same problem. I've seen poor people who work long hours to make ends meet, but I've seen many, many more poor people with entitlement attitudes who don't make the most of the opportunities that they do have. Who feel like the stuff makes the man, who spend more time griping about injustices experienced, than being thankful for the grace received. In this country, many middle class Christian families came from humble beginnings. When those poor people became saved and started practicing the fruit of the Spirit, they raised their kids more responsibly (and lovingly), and became wealthy enough to send their kids to college, so their kids had a much better standard of living than their parents. The middle class in succeeding generations has forgotten the Spirit that got them there, and use their wealth to hide from their pain.

Jesus' ministry was primarily to the hurting, to bind up the broken hearted. The hurt of the poor is usually more obvious. The wealthy hurt too, but theirs tends to be hidden. When you make statements like "Jesus directed his good news (concerning economics also) especially to the poor, and not surprisingly they heard him gladly." I feel like you are being selective about who you think is deserving your gifts, ministry, etc. I don't feel like Jesus' example supports such selectiveness.

Paul,

I agree that it is important for Christians to seek to live in the freedom of Christ. "The Have To" aspect often has to do with the fact that Christians get themselves in debt. Debt is a slave master, and once encumbered there is a required obligation which can take away from the joy and freedom that we have in Christ.

Part of the reason people choose the slave master of debt is due to how they feel they must fulfill their basic needs or aspirations in life. This is where a close evaluating eye, and a creative mind is helpful. There are basic needs, but generally they are a lot more modest than what most Americans consider their needs to be. And there is "more than one way to skin a cat" as I was always told. There are a lot of creative solutions out there, we just have to be brave enough to be different, and willing to accept that we might have to try several different ideas before we find something that works for us.

I've noticed that in other posts you have not been comfortable with the word responsibility. I don't think being responsible takes away our freedom. I do think that God has called us to be responsible.

Paul,

I do believe that a person could live through generosity. Generosity creates a social obligation that returns more than what was given. However, to do it in true Christian spirit, our generosity should not be limited to a particular demographic: rich, poor, family, friend, young, old, etc. Also, there must be no expectation of return favor, otherwise it is not a true gift. This has more to do with the spirit in giving than the qualifications of the receiver. Thirdly, gift given must be desired by the receiver, not necessarily what we might want to give. Of course the ideal is if our talents or ability to give match the receivers needs and wants, but if the gift is to be an expression of love, it is the needs of the receiver that is more important than the talents of the giver.

The true test of living only on generosity is being willing to live in want; when you can trust God to provide even when you are hungry, or thirsty, or cold, or isolated, or sick in some way. I am not suggesting that we cannot make our wants known to others, but if we are living by generosity we should not become beggars. There is, within the history of the church, numerous people who have lived Jesus example. Reading their biographies might give you a clearer picture of what is involved in such a life.

I even believe that one could live without money altogether. In fact humanity has done so for thousands and thousands of years. But, I also believe that God has given us agriculture (as a gift, not a curse) and money for a purpose. The fact that these things have been used for evil purposes has more to do with our hearts, than the qualities of the gift.

That being said, I do believe that Christians can follow Jesus example and still participate in the present economic system. I think it is just as important to fund advances in science, medicine, technology, education, and the like. Our economic system is very effective at doing that in a way that benefits the most people.

I believe that in either situation we can let our hearts be lead astray if we are not staying connected with the Holy Spirit. (And I concur with Ted that our understanding of the Holy Spirit is mediated by humanity in every context.) We can become arrogant and pharisaical, and fail to love those whom we are generous with. And we can become like Martha, so focused on getting something accomplished that we forget why or for whom we are working.

Nathan,
Just an idea here, but in studying ecosystems and the cooperative structure of biological systems I have discovered that the natural order of things follows an economy very similar to capitalism. I have not been able to philosophically determine whether or not such a natural system would be under the power of evil influences since the Bible claims power over death as a spiritual victory. Death being a result of the natural principle of entropy. However, this side of the resurrection, entropy is necessary for life to exist, so I haven't been able to puzzle it out yet. Suffice it to say, it is at the least another example of how God turns evil into good. And if God can do that with entropy, then I would think he could do that with other natural systems such as capitalism.

Ted,
I enjoyed your piece very much. You are very eloquent and have a terrific sense of humor. I have been impressed with the thoughtful discussions you have had with your readers.

As I have struggled with how to raise my teenagers, I have come back to the story of the Prodigal Son in hopes to learn something about how to be a gracious parent. I was struck by the fact that the loving father in the story enabled his wayward son to leave. And by the fact that even though he was looking for the return of his son, he did not go searching for his son as maybe the story of the lost sheep would imply.

I thought about your comments of how evangelicals find the need to keep rehearsing the story of the prodigal son with very little emphasis on the faithful son or the father as states of Christian practice/experience. Since I am a creature of habit, a creature with an appetite, I like reviewing such stories, consuming the grace for my needy soul. But I have found that instead of creating a rut, leaving me where I began, that I move through the story first as the prodigal conscious of my waywardness in need of grace, then as the older son faithfully following Christ, yet lost in legalism unwilling to live in the grace provided, then as the Father, letting go of my expectations for myself and others, and finally receiving with open arms the contrite spirit, being generous with what has been generously given to me. This cycle of grace keeps me growing in faith, continually being transformed, rather than frozen in time at a moment of transaction.

Paul, how is your vision for a gift economy any different than voluntary communism? And how would you envision the aggregation of wealth so that advances in science and medicine could be achieved?

I was wondering who did the nice job of picking pictures for all the articles.

Jim,
You are right that God was not in favor of Israel having a king, and their first king was a disaster. However, when I read the prophets I get a much different picture of God's attitude towards rulers. Rulers such as Nebuchadnezzar were instruments of God's justice, Darius and Cyrus were praised. Even when I read Chronicles I get the picture that it was the king's duty to lead the people to God. It sort of fits into Jesus parables of being a good shepherd; that the ordinary populace will go astray if they are not led by a good ruler, one with a rod and staff.

The extent to which earthly governing reflects or should reflect the kingdom of God and in what way is a debate that goes back to the church's beginnings. The reformation marked a significant turning point in people's ideas about who and how earthly power should be used to enforce/bring in the kingdom of God. I suspect it will continue to be debated until Jesus returns. Hopefully the debate will be like iron sharpening iron into a sword of truth that pierces to the heart.

I think your observations about the effectiveness of various non-violent methods is spot on. I think you also make a good observation about the distinction between police and military. But I'm not sure how we could have police without a governing body or rulers.

A lot of national problems are actually personal problems on a national scale.

I appreciate your comments Joan. It is easy to have self control about your diet when you don't have very much food. It is much more difficult to have it when you are surrounded my anything you might want. I think God is much more interested in our having self control than he is interested in the specific food we eat. I think the same can be said about money.

I stand corrected. Maybe I should cut off my hand.

That's quite a stretch, Paul. I agree with Daniel on this one. There is a reason God gives us rulers. I believe they are a gift of God also which we should use for the betterment of society.

Paul,
He only told one person to go sell all, give to the poor, and come follow him. We have evidence that the disciples left their occupations to follow Christ, and that later they sold their possessions to live in common. But this was a voluntary thing, not a sign of their commitment to the Way, as is illustrated in the words of Peter when Annaias and Saphira died. And while the Christian community in Jerusalem lived as a commune, this was not the predominant mode of living for Christendom in the first and second century.

As Jesus was the eldest son and his earthly father had passed away, it was his responsibility to care for the family. He passed this responsibility on to the apostle John at his crucifixion. Considering all the passages in the Bible of how we should work hard, honestly, etc. I don't know how you could assume that Jesus did not live an exemplary life in his work as a carpenter.

The whole point of discipline to get the subject to change their behavior. A change in behavior happens a whole lot faster when there is repentance. Sometimes repentance comes when a person empathizes with the victim, other times it takes some painful consequences. What those consequences are, who administers them, and when are the issues addressed by our governing system. And believe it or not, our governing/justice system does have avenues of grace built into it.

Florence,
I would like to suggest that human justice is a form of grace. If our sins deserve death, then anything less is a form of mercy if not grace. We can show grace and still hold people accountable for their actions.

Right,
Now shall I get a whip and drive out the money changers? bankers? stockbrokers? Oh, my!

Please, I hope you are not suggesting we forget everything but the gospels.

I agree with you, Paul, that the work God has for us to do is much more like play since much of it is what we were made/designed to do. I have tried to determine the distinction between rest and work with the idea that I wanted to honor God's directive to rest due to our human limitations. I have found it very difficult in many cases to decide whether I was working or playing (resting). Even when we sleep, our brains are actively processing our waking time. I found that the more joy I have in the work I do, the more restful it is. And I have learned that I have a choice in whether I find joy in my work. The more thankful I am, the more joy I have. The more I anticipate God's redemption and transformation of my situation, the easier it is to endure the hardship.

I would like to point you to another verse in John 5:17. My NIV translation reads: "Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." Jesus was responding to Jewish leaders complaining that he was working on the Sabbath. Jesus was trying to follow the example of his father. We try and follow the example of Jesus who was working even when humanly he should have been resting. While we read of Jesus taking time to pray and rest, we also see him so exhausted that he is sleeping through a storm, and foregoing food to teach people a Samaritan woman brought out to hear him.

When you care for young children, (and maybe you do, I don't know) you are working pretty much 24/7. There is no Sabbath rest; no one day where you rest. If you do get some rest it is because the child(ren) happen to be sleeping and you are not and you are choosing not to try and catch up on other work/chores that are not getting done while they are awake. Or because someone else is caring for your child(ren) while you are taking some rest. Most of the time the work is a pleasure because you love your children, they love you, and it's a lot of fun to watch them grow and learn. And the pleasure you receive makes your work restful.

Your young children demand almost all of your time and attention, but generally it is not a burden. God expects us to love him with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Is that a request or a demand? I don't know, I could go either way. But it seems to me that it implies that he wants all of our time. He wants us to love him with our work and our rest. Does that work look like play? I do agree that Jesus promises to make our burdens light. Does that work look like pain? The garden of Gethsemane was painful work which continued until Jesus died. Does that rest look like work? Does the rest look like work? I find it takes some work to truly meditate, which probably looks like rest to others.

I believe God's other promise that if we sought his kingdom first, which I interpret as to do God's work first, then he would supply all of our other needs, like eating, clothing, shelter, etc. And I believe that it was a conditional promise.

Paul,
The scripture you quoted affirms Christian desire to seek justice. It puts a limit on how that is to be done. Since both parties of the dispute are Christians, Paul commends that they seek justice through the Church. He expects both parties to submit to the decisions of the Church because of their commitment to Christ.

Worldly justice is enforced through threat (or actual) violence. If there were no attempt made at justice, this would be a very mean world indeed. We can see a small cosmos of what a world without limits would look like when we observe different parenting strategies. Families where boundaries are not enforced have very unruly children which grow up to be problems in society. The Apostle Paul talks about how as adults we are grateful for the discipline of our parents and how it makes us better persons. I don't know that we necessarily have to use violence to discipline our children, but our ability to enforce any disciple becomes less when our children become bigger and stronger than we are.

I feel that when we report crimes to the police, and pursue worldly justice we limit the damage evil can do. We protect the innocent from having to bear the wounds of someone else's sin. Forgiving is hard work. I don't want to have to forgive any more than is necessary. And I wouldn't want create a situation by my inaction where someone else had to do the hard work of forgiving.

Glenn,
Starvation is usually caused by two things: environmental disaster or political corruption/ineptitude. These are things that can be largely avoided and there needs to be a certain amount of repentance for their presence. Part of our Christian faith is to bear the burden of others' sin without vengeance and sometimes this results in our death. Another one of a Christian's burdens is to be generous. If someone is starving and we have not been generous then we need to repent. But God gives us the strength such that we can bear these burdens with his grace. But there are times when our faith is tested like Shadrack, Meshack, and Abednigo to see if we will cave when faced with death. But because we know that death is not the end, that our God is greater than our circumstances, we can hold strong.

Luke,
If you decide to give up your job, consider the verse 'six days shall you labor and do all that you are able, and the seventh day rest'. I job has nice convenient boundaries about how much work is expected for how long. If you give up your job, then I would expect that the obligation to work would increase to pretty much all your waking time six days a week. If you were actively helping people/society/the environment out all that time, I believe God would take care of your needs if you knew how to see his provision. But that is a lot more work than most people are willing to do.

I've been challenged by God's question to Moses: "What is in your hand?" God takes what we have right now to work deliverance for his people. And I agree that we don't have to wait for another time and place to be the love of God. It is the insignificance of our situation that keeps us humble.

That's an incredible story Joan. Thanks for sharing. Letting God be in control of our lives (and finances whether big or small) is a mind bending, soul transforming process. And I can concur that children don't understand -mine don't. I will pray that eventually your life's witness will open their eyes.

I agree that we need to depend on God, daily, hourly, all the time. I do agree that how we relate to money reflects our trust in him. What I hear you and others saying is that there is some measure of stuff or money or lack there of that should be a goal we are to strive for. If that is what you are saying, I don't think I can agree.

I think there is a danger in taking the Bible as an economics textbook, just like there is a danger in taking it as a science textbook.