DISQUS

Jeff I agree with the Lordship of Christ completely. I think you are missing my actual point by getting bogged down on Theological details that are true without question. I am asking a question that I have honestly never seen anyone ask, and I am guessing you have never seen asked in this way.

I am asking about what actually makes us Christian. We define groups as being Christian or non-Christian based on their Theology (understanding of God or Christ) yet it is not our Theology that saves us. So either our proper understanding of Christ's sacrifice is essential for our salvation or God is able to save us by Christ's sacrifice even if we don't really understand it.

You are saying that we must have a proper understanding or our Faith and how it all works between Jesus and the Father or the person is following the wrong Jesus. But does the New Testament teach us this? Did Paul write to Churches and tell them they were following the wrong Jesus or did he teach them the truth about Jesus and shed light on the false teachings that they were hearing and believing?

Does understanding and knowledge about God come after acceptance or before? If it is before then our Theology must be correct for our acceptance of Christ to have value. If understanding can come after then Christs sacrifice can be valid and then the believer can begin to see the truth. But for them to see the truth they need to be taught the truth. If they are hearing false teachings it should be expected for them to believe false things about Christ. I see Paul writing to clear up false teachings to Churches, not declaring those believers to be outside of the flock, but believers being led astray by false teachings.

But hey, I could be completley wrong. :)

Curtis Jeff,

I suppose theoretically what you are saying could be true: A person could put their trust and belief in Jesus for the Remission of Sin (singular) and not believe that he is God. However the practical implications of this would be that Jesus would be like the OT sacrafices and as soon as a person sinned since Jesus is finite he would have to die all over again for our sin. each time we subsequently sinned Jesus would have to die on the Cross, thus having Jesus not be God means he has to probably die millions of times each day for each individual sin. that is why we need Jesus to be infinite. As scripture tells us Jesus died once for all.

Jeff Acts 2:36-38

"So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!"
37 Peter's words pierced their hearts, and they said to him and to the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?"
38 Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This again is a verse that highlights that Jesus is more than just a man. (v.36) That He is God through the use of the word Lord. But it still makes no claim that understanding this truth is necessary for someone to accept Jesus. This is not to say that this very truth can not be what compels someone to come to Christ as occured in this instance in Acts. This is the very argument that some make for speaking in tongues being the sign that you have been saved. Because there are examples of this happening when people became believers in Acts. Yet a wholistic approach shows us that not all believers will speak in tongues so how can we use it as a basis for someone being saved?

I am seriously looking for a scripture that backs up the idea that our proper understanding or Theology of God or Christ is a basis for our salvation. We teach this concept to people without backing it up. I want to know the truth, not just what we think is the truth. And the truth will be backed up by scripture.

Curtis Read Acts 2:36-38. This seems to give a pretty clear indication. This is what Peter said to convince the Jews Jesus was the messiah, and they turned to him.
maybe this helps

Jeff I used to buy the different Jesus concept. That is until I began to think about this.

If someone believes the following are they a Christian?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." —John 3:16 (NIV)

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." —Romans 3:23 (NIV)

"For the wages of sin is death." —Romans 6:23 (NIV)

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." —Romans 5:8 (NIV)

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." —Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." —Revelation 3:20 (NIV)

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." —John 1:12 (NIV)

These are the most common verses that are used to share the Gospel message to someone.

You are saying that someone who accepts Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins but does not understand that Jesus is God has somehow placed their faith in a different Jesus. Seems to me that they need more teaching rather than to meet a different Jesus.

Jeff I agree that posing that question to someone who does not believe that Jesus is God is very valid and valuable to get them to see the truth. I agree that Jesus sacrifice would not be valid if Jesus were not God. But does someone failing to know this or understand this make their acceptance of Jesus Christ any less valid? I know my acceptance of Christ as savior was not because He was God, it was because He was and is able to forgive my sins. these deeper discussions and understandings unwrapped as I learned more about Christ and matured in my faith. The ins and outs and whys of how that salvation works is not foundational in my acceptance of Jesus Christ. It is not my knowledge or understanding that saves me. It is Jesus perfect sacrifice that saves me.

Just because someone does not believe that Jesus is God does not make it so that Jesus is no longer truly God. It simply means they do not understand that He is. So does someone need to understand or know that Jesus is God to be able to accept Jesus as savior? I can't find scripture to support this claim which is clearly grounds that I have used to define someone as being Christian.

Jeff You are assuming that someone who believes that Jesus is not God is also making the logical conclusion that Jesus is incapable of saving them. That is our logical conclusion based on scripture and what we know to be true about Christ. But for people who fail to see Jesus divinity, they do believe that Jesus is fully capable of saving them as scripture describes. You would think they would see the flaw in their understanding but they do not. If they did then their faith would be phony. How could anyone trust in Christ to save them if they do not have faith that he can actually do that? The issue is when they do have faith that he can do just that yet they do not understanding that He and God the Father are one and the same.

curtis What makes Jesus able to forgive their sins if he is not God? That is the core of my questions/problem with their belief. I think when you get to the heart of this question you will get into a works salvation or some other form of salvation other than purely by the blood of Christ.

Jeff I didn't make the claim that someone would put their faith in Christ for the remission for their sins and then not believe that Christ is capable of doing that. I have yet to meet someone who has made that claim. I am talking about people who put their faith in Christ because they do believe that he is fully able to forgive them of their sins.

The issue is people who do believe that Jesus is fully capable to forgive them of their sins. But those same people do not believe that Jesus is God. We understand that He is God. But why does their lack of understanding that He is God make their belief in Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins less valid? We can break apart their bad theology rather quickly and show them that Jesus is in fact God. But again it goes back to how we are saved. Is it from a proper understanding of Jesus or through Faith in Jesus?

I now see Mormons and Jehovahs witnesses as people who have been deeply deceived by false teachings and we need to teach them the truth. We shouldn't ignore these theological issues, but I question calling one of these people 'non-Christian' over their bad theology when the core of what makes us Christian is what these people have placed their faith in. Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins.

Jeff These verses teach us about the diety of Jesus but that is not the question being discussed. These verses do not declare we are saved because of a proper understanding of Jesus diety. I am not questioning the diety of Christ or his sinlessness. I am questioning the underlying issue that we believe that somehow our understanding or knowledge is how we are saved and therefore followers of Christ when the Bible clearly says we are saved by Jesus sacrifice. Faith alone is often touted as how we are saved. If that is true then how can we add additional qualifications to this? Either there is more than faith alone, or we are adding more to what saves someone than what Jesus has done. Is if Faith plus a proper understanding of how God is able to save and the details of His sacrifice and union with God the Father and the Holy Spirit that saves us? This is the question at hand, not the details for any specific piece of Theology. The basics of what makes a Christian a Christian.

Coming to understand who Christ is, is part of growing with Him. But if a believer has people teaching them false teachings that teach them things that are wrong about Christ and they believe those things and still hold to Jesus sacrifice and their faith in that as their salvation, are they still Christian or is their bad Theology now bad enough that their acceptance of Christ is null and void? I can't seem to find scriptural evidence for such a claim. I can find loads of evidence for Jesus being God and his sacrifice being perfect in that he lives a sinless life. But again, that is not the issue at hand. The issue is whether or not a proper understanding of that truth is a requirement for someone to accept Christ. You are saying that it is. So can we find scriptural evidence to make that claim?

Jeff Can we find a scriptural basis that we must believe or understand that Jesus Christ is God for his sacrifice to actually impact our status with God?

Jeff You are building on my premise. That there are people who live out their faith, act like Christ, and believe the words of scripture. They are committed and devoted to Jesus Christ for their salvation. Genuine followers of Christ. I acknowledge that there are many who claim to be Christian who are not because they do not follow Christ in how they live their lives. Jesus affirms that these people are out there. I am talking not about those who are Christian by name alone, but those who follow Jesus Christ in every aspect of their life. I am not concerned with the name someone calls themselves. You can call yourself a Christian all you want but if Jesus Christ is not who has saved you then you are not a follower of Jesus Christ. If you call yourself a Bovitite and have accepted Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, then you would be a follower of Christ regardless of the name you define yourself with.

I am talking about those who do believe in Jesus Christ have accepted him and place their salvation in His hands. Yet they believe things that are not true about Jesus or about God the Father. For example the Trinity, or Jesus divinity. Is it these false things that disqualify some from being 'Christian'? That sounds rather Gnostic. If so how can we then claim to be saved if we too have some false understanding or belief about God? I would argue that it is Jesus sacrifice that saves us and not our fully accurate understanding of that sacrifice. We are called to accept his sacrificet, not to fully understand it. How can we make an argument that we must have proper Theology when we know that it is not our Theology or understanding of God that saves us?

I am not saying that a false belief is in any way valid or true. But I am seriously questioning what truly makes a Christian a Christian. It is either very simple and many people can be considered Christian, even those who hold to some false beliefs. Or there is far more to being a Follower of Christ.

So this goes back to the original question. Who is a Christian? or Who is a Christ Follower? How can we define this? The definitions that are commonly held to would not disqualify some 'heretical' groups. So either our definition is not correct, or our acceptance of other followers of Christ is flawed.