DISQUS

In response to squarepeg's comment that:
"He wasn't pandering to the Black community, he was pandering to the so-called white conservatives who heard him denounce and repudiate ALL Black men and they said - AMEN!"



I say this - you are either a fool, a liar or a wanton shit-disturber.



Where in his speech did he denounce and repudiate ALL (your emphasis, not mine) black men?



His exact comment was "too many fathers". Too many is NOT the same as all - this is either stupidity or wilful demagoguery on your part and that of CPL and others and I must say it is REALLY getting to me now.



You are twisting the man's words the same way a Fox News ... creature (can't call them journalists) would. It is appalling to witness.



As for truthseeker, it is baffling to me that your feelings were hurt by this speech.



You claim that the "deadbeat black man experience" is an alien concept to you - I would that I lived in this sanitised black community that you live in. Where is it? Is it somewhere on this side of the Atlantic?



Are you really telling me that even though your own father, grandfather, uncles, brothers were not deadbeats that you have no friends, cousins, schoolmates etc that have experienced such a thing? Considering that the facts are that a MAJORITY of young black people are raised in single-mother homes today, I find this hard to believe.



In fact, I find you insulting and damn rude, feisty and out of order, claiming this is an alien concept. So are you saying the experience of the many black children and women who have experienced this is 'alien'? We are experiencing some unique dysfunction?



So you have no empathy or interest in the experience of black people outside of your own personal circle? Our experience does not matter? The experience of the majority?



Looka, let me finish before I fling two bad words... I gone.

Sigh... when I started reading this post, I just knew it would be by my 'favourite' JJPolitics poster CPL even before I reached the end of it - that whiny, immature, emotive writing style was in full effect.


But I digress. I am amazed at the level of anger over this.



Did the lot of you who are criticising Senator Obama for his speech actually read or hear it in its entirety? Or did you just hear sound bites?



If you did, I really do not understand how you could say he threw black men under the bus or that he was "calling out all Black men as fathers" as CPL emotively and wrongly asserted. To quote another commenter ... demagoguery really is demagoguery no matter where.



In no way and in no place in that speech did he call out ALL black men as being bad fathers. That is a crass over-simplification worthy of Fox News itself - congrats CPL!



He did call out THOSE black men who ARE bad fathers - it is not the same - at all.



In fact, he praised those brothers who are holding it down as good fathers, raised the example of his father in law as an example.



I saw PTcruiser said that Obama should "have either enough political courage or mother wit to talk about the problem in a more comprehensive and expansive way than simply referring to "personal responsibility"... but he DID speak about in a more expansive way or did you miss that whole bit where he spoke about the need to support those fathers who are doing a good job?



Lemme recap it for you:



"And by the way - it's a responsibility that also extends to Washington. Because if fathers are doing their part; if they're taking our responsibilities seriously to be there for their children, and set high expectations for them, and instill in them a sense of excellence and empathy, then our government should meet them halfway.



We should be making it easier for fathers who make responsible choices and harder for those who avoid them. We should get rid of the financial penalties we impose on married couples right now, and start making sure that every dime of child support goes directly to helping children instead of some bureaucrat. We should reward fathers who pay that child support with job training and job opportunities and a larger Earned Income Tax Credit that can help them pay the bills.



We should help these new families care for their children by expanding maternity and paternity leave, and we should guarantee every worker more paid sick leave so they can stay home to take care of their child without losing their income."



I don't understand why people are seizing only on the parts of his speech where he made criticisms of black fathers and ignoring all the other parts that more than balanced that out.



It seems people think Obama should not DARE point out any flaws of the black community.

And that is something I have noticed about African-Americans - I guess it has to do with being a minority in the USA but there is this pervasive attitude that any black person who publicly criticises any element of black society or culture ... even if it is something that we all abhor ourselves... is a traitor for they have 'embarrassed' the race in front of white people.



Why the hell are we so concerned about white people think of us or worried about putting on a good impression for them even if it's fake? Who the HELL are they that we have to impress them so and care so much about their perception of us? To use some rank Bajan "dem don't stir my cou-cou nor wash my clothes".



Imagine CPL concerned about what the motley crew at Fox News is going to say about black people as a result of this - WHO CARES? Let's focus on what we think of ourselves and how we treat each other - how about that?



Y'all really need to get a grip. But I speak from a different social perspective - thank god I say at times like this.



Whew...anyhow, my other point is that Obama was right to talk about this - but I definitely take the point that Father's Day was definitely not an opportune time to do so. So for those who take issue with the timing - you have a point.



But most people seem to be saying that he should not have said this at all. Actually, some poppet said that Obama does not have the "moral or legal authority" to speak about this. Legal authority? What on earth did you mean when you typed that drivel?



Still, there is a major problem with black fatherhoodn ot just in black America but among black people all over the Western Hemisphere. In the Caribbean, the stats are just as woeful - in my island 60% of children are raised by their mothers alone.



You folks who claim you know far more good fathers than bad ones are either very fortunate or lying. The vast majority of my friends were born to indifferent fathers who paid only token if any attention to them - and I am firmly middle class, went to the best school in my region and have two degrees. But that is HOW IT IS - not talking about it will not solve the problem. Moreover it is insulting to all the children and women suffering because of it to not talk about it - as if our problem does not exist. As if it is ok and we are giving them a pass - because silence is often take to be consent.



Well it is NOT OK! We should not be silent and shut up about it and who better than Obama to speak about it? Out of all the public figures in the US he is best positioned to speak about it having grown up without his black father (which he did mention in his speech CPL- you petty, spiteful creature) having seen the impact of that particularly on his siblings and having taken a decision not to repeat his father's behaviour.



It would be awkward and patronising coming from a white public figure who cannot relate but Obama CAN relate because he has been there.





I am glad he spoke about it.

Also, what about the flip side of this?


I have personally met (and dated) some brothers who have been converted... or converted back? lol!



My immediate past ex had only ever dated white girls before he met me. Of course, that had something to do with the fact that he lived in Norway.



And he expressed some of those same views to me when we were discussing the whole 'black men-white women' thing. He observed that especially when out clubbing, black women looked unapproachable while white women would smile and be friendly.



But by the same token, he came to appreciate the difference in going out with a black woman - the freedom to speak his mind in a way he could not with white women, the shared views and experiences and humour that would have been lost otherwise and the feeling that I had his back because I understood better what he was going through.



Some of them do see the light. I hope Lynch does eventually.

*Sigh.*


Oh, another one of these. Look, fools we will always have with us.



And truth be told, some of what he is saying is ...well not quite truth but an accurate reflection of how some misguided brothers feel.



And that's a damn shame for they are short-sighted. They see only 'attitude' but do not appreciate that it usually comes with the incredible and unique strength of black women. They will talk about how black women do not appreciate their struggle but they show no appreciation or understanding of the equal struggle black women go through.



On the whole, white women probably do have less 'attitude' than black women. They also tend to have less financial and social burdens, are more affirmed as the 'standard' by which all others are judged and are more likely to be raised in two-parent families where they get cues on how men and women interact lovingly.



It is what it is.



But fools like this Matthew Lynch want to act as if black women's behaviour happens in a vacuum. As if there is nothing impacting it, shaping it, creating it.



True brothers understand all this and they appreciate the strength we have regardless. I have all the time in the world for black men like this.



Black males like Lynch - why bother?

I do. My ex-boyfriend who is from St. Vincent has gone on two tours of duty in Iraq with the British army.


He came back ok but shortly after he first went, there was an attack on his camp in Basra and 5 soldiers died. For days, we could not get through to him and as the army had not released the names of the dead, there was plenty of time to let your mind wander onto the worst 'what-if' scenarios.



When I worked in the media, I also interviewed several fellow Barbadians who had been to Iraq qith either the British or American armies.



One of the things that has enraged me about this war is how since it has started the British in particular ramped up their recruitment efforts in their former colonies - in places like St.Vincent, St. Lucia, Jamaica and Fiji. According to my ex, there are many more soldiers from these countries now than there were when he joined the army in 2000.



These ... Brits (restraint) have been deliberately targeting young black Caribbean men in poor, developing countries, offering them the bait of British residency if we come and fight in their war.



Why? The British haven't sucked enough out of the Caribbean over the course of 300-odd years or so?



Why target our young men? For a war that has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the Caribbean? It is so patently obvious that they are capitalising on the poverty and lack of opportunity that exists in many islands and the fact that many people jump at the opportunity to get residency in the North because of the greater economic opportunities there.



It disgusts me.

*Flava Flav voice* wooooowwwwww...


No really? "Black children must die"?



Out of the hordes of 'people' that are involved in Ashanti's career, not ONE SINGLE person put their hand up and said "ummm, I think this may piss people off?"



All publicity is NOT good publicity - I can't see this inspiring people to buy Ashanti's album.

Jeez. Us. Chriiiise!


Don't do that to me! My stomach dropped right down to my ankles - I'm still trying to pick it up.

Iowa obviously was a great night - I watched it obsessively - cheered for every little tick on the screen when new numbers came in. It was the fulfillment of my hopes - that American voters would see what the rest of were seeing. And to win in Iowa...lily-white Iowa. It was crazy.


When he won handsomely in South Carolina it was a great moment as well. So often I have looked on at the results of past American elections and the margins of victory and just wondered - why don't African-Americans use their power more effectively? Often the margin of victory has been smaller than the percentage of African-Americans in the electorate - or the proportions you should be. But so many people have been ambivalent and not voted in the past that it was disappointing and puzzling to me as someone on the outside looking in.



But this time - you all did it. It has been so exciting and inspiring to see, especially after there was so much doubt about his candidacy last year. When I started reading about the higher numbers and seeing the whuppings he was putting on her in Southern states, I wanted to jump up and down and say 'AT LAST!' This is what we have been waiting for -this is what it is like when African-Americans finally close ranks and unite and make their voice count.



I know I keep going on and on about this but I'm so proud of you all. We have been waiting to see this for a while and you definitely chose the right time and person.

I love the way they relate to each other. It seems so rare among political couples that we see a couple that genuinely exudes love and affection for one another, rather than just a sense of duty.


I love the way Barack looks at his wife and speaks about his wife - you can tell that he really adores and respects her as the black queen she is. As a black woman that is a beautiful thing to see.

I know right truthseeker? That's the feminist hero for you! That would be so incredibly petty and yet typical of Hillary - if she can't or won't have it no other DARE think they should get it. That vicious and disgusting streak of entitlement pops up every time.


An extra thought - as odious as it is, Obama needs to start reaching out to Hillary's base of white middle-aged women, as vindictive, dismissive and bitter as many of them have been.



Any ideas on what would be a good way to do this? Personally I think he needs to play up his mother and granny more - a LOT MORE. From all accounts his mum was an incredible woman - gutsy, hard-working and open-minded. His grandmother is the same and a feminist trailblazer all on her own. Michelle is another tough nut - she basically was the major income earner in their household until his most recent bestseller a few years ago.



Obama needs to emphasise that not only does he have no issues with strong women, he LOVES him some strong women. That is who he has been surrounded about his whole life and who have made him who he is.



I dunno...maybe a gender version of his race speech? What says you jack and jill massive? :)

Has anyone seen this Newsweek piece by Howard Fineman? (http://www.newsweek.com/id/139908)


..., Clinton wants to be offered the veep spot...so she can turn it down. And she doesn't want him to offer it to another woman because she has set herself up as 'The Woman' in the party and doesn't want someone else to steal that thunder.



Jesus take the wheel... this is really ridiculous if it is true. But... I would never put it past her.

Since this is an open thread...can I just comment on the extra-flyness that was Michelle Obama's outfit last night?


Did anyone notice it? I loved the colour, the fit and the belt. She was working it!

I'd heard of all the Obamamania and the arguments over 'articulate' and is he black enough and so on. So he was on my radar and when he announced his candidacy, I thought 'oh that's nice'. And I supported him tentatively because his candidacy is an important thing for black people all over the world.


But I didn't think he had a chance. I figured Hillary would beat him convincingly and if she didn't Edwards might because he had already run in 04 and he was a vice-presidential nominee and he was the white guy and that is how Americans are (or seem to the rest of the world).

I remember feeling that night that I just HAD to watch the results as they came in. I just ...had a feeling, even though my boyfriend thought I was nuts. I'm a politics junkie and follow the American elections pretty closely anyhow but even I was surprised at my intensity.


Every single time more numbers came in and that pie chart got a little bigger for Obama, I pumped my fists and told my boyfriend 'believe!'



Michelle got me since November last year in that interview with Brzezinksi when she spoke so empathetically about our 'natural fear of possibility' and how we needed to let that go. And I decided to let go and believe.



And that night in Iowa...IOWA of all places was my first vindication. That was a great night.

Just to add my two cents to this...


It is a historic moment. Let us enjoy it tonight and face Hillary and her brood of vipers tomorrow. It is not about her. It is about Obama.



Moreover, I'd like to extend a most heartfelt thanks and congrats congrats to my African-American bredren and sistren.



To be honest, sometimes African-Americans don't make me terribly proud as a black, Caribbean woman. Some elements of African-American culture make me cringe because I know it's reflected on all of us who ended up on this side of the Atlantic.



But this time y'all really made my heart swell with pride as a black person.



Throughout this process, I was heartened and inspired to see how African-American voters came out in their numbers, registered in their numbers, campaigned like crazy, even damn well walked miles to the voting areas to ensure that Obama got this nomination.



You truly showed the power of the black vote in the USA and every vote you cast (and will cast again in November) for Obama is appreciated by all of us black people around the world who can only follow this race but are not as fortunate to participate in it the way you can. We are backing Obama 100 per cent and we are PROUD of you.

You're doing it for us and doing it well.

Also wanted to respond to nyc/caribbean ragazza's observations. I agree and disagree.


I do agree that in some islands, the racial issue has more complexity to it. In Martinique for instance, I found the racial lines and roles were a lot more blurred - the races mixed a lot more and there seemed to be less hang ups about black, brown or white. Though of course, I know enough to know they are still there. But it's less...sharp than in other places.



Trinidad is another example partly because the racial/racist dynamic is different there- brown vs. black and they are such a rainbow nation it makes no sense.



Jamaica ...being half-Jamaican and having lived there to do uni, I would NEVER list Jamaicans as people who are not colour-conscious. Jamaicans are so colour-conscious it's painful.



I think it may be wrong to necessarily judge Caribbean racial attitudes by your friends and family since they sound more middle class and bourgeois and are not necessarily representative of normal attitudes.



Not hitting at you - it's just like how I have tons of Indo-Trinidadian friends who are not 'racial' in the least but I know they do not neccesarily represent the norm.

Just my two cents:


To anon 7:52 - yes it is a stupid, racist concept but it has also created enormous good in that blacks in the Western hemisphere are more welcoming than probably any other group of people. Not that we don't have our issues of colourism and shadism but by comparison, we are much more willing to accept someone as being 'one of us' than other people are - often where others would reject.

So if you're light-skinned and wavy-haired like Rihanna or Alicia Keys? Sure, you're black. Welcome.

If you're dark-skinned and curly-haired like me? You're black and you're welcome.

If you're part Syrian, part Portuguese, Part Chinese and part black with freckles and a big bamsy like my Trini best friend - you too can identify as black and you're welcome. Our concept of black is very wide and diverse. I happen to like that. Gives me lots of folks to claim. :)



It's like Nas said...:p "Y'all my n***as too.

Ronnie B said...
Please forgive me if I sound cavalier or sexist: Where are the (grown-ass) men in the Democratic Party? Not the men-are-pigs men, but the men who claim positions of authentic leadership without fear of hurt feelings or potential tantrums.



See, this is precisely why I quit registering as a Dem. This constant fear of offending offensive people.



Hillary Clinton is acting like a spoiled 3-year-old, and grown folks do nothing while she "expresses herself". A grown man would say enough is enough and swat her diapered-ass. To let her know that the air she pollutes with her noise, is everybody's air. That the peace she disturbs with her shrill tantrums is everybody's peace.



Where are the grown-ass men to discipline this most spoiled child?



Fri May 09, 05:18:00 AM 2008

==============



Thank you! That was so much more eloquent than what I was going to say which is - these undeclared superdels are a set of bitches.



To be honest, I have gotten so fed up with this whole rigamarole in the last few weeks. Looking on from the outside in, I cannot fathom that this would happen in any other country - that a set of politicians, with power right within their grasp would be such namby-pamby, wishy-washy, fraidy-fraidy bitches about getting on with it. It's politics for pity's sake! Hurting people's feelings is part of the process - and in such a case where the person is actually damaging the party...are you kidding me? What is wrong with your people?

TLW said...
"Not that I consider myself militant at this point in my life, but I have traveled outside the US to Africa and the Caribbean and I did not feel I was viewed so much as an American but as a black American and it was not particularly positive. I will say it was eye opening though."



That is because Black Americans are viewed upon as the ultimate conformists who appear to actively try and distance themselves from the continual struggle of Africans of the diaspora. Otherwise we tend to look down on our Brothers and Sisters from other nations and I absolutely agree with this. We have taken on the identity and atitude of the people/oppressor that we fought so hard against.

-------------



I'd like to address this. Yes and no.



On the one hand, a lot of black Caribbean people do feel as if African-Americans look down on us and resent the attitude of African-Americans - who sometimes tend to behave as if they are the only black people in the whole Western Hemisphere and have the only legitimate and defining 'black experience'. Small example: When Rihanna won her Grammy, Jay-Z jokingly 'translated' her speech. A lot of Bajans were not amused by that. Larger example: African-Americans subscribing to the same broad cliches and stereotypes of Caribbean people as white Americans do. We feel you should know better or at least make the efffort to do so.



On the other hand, a LOT of West Indians, especially after they have lived in the States among African-Americans, tend to look down on them. Perhaps because they feel more defined by their immigrant status rather than their black status, West Indians tend to do differently and make note of it.Black Caribbean people tend to get more education, own their own businesses more, own their own houses more etc than black Americans and then they tend to feel 'well if we can do all this why can't you in your own country'? One complaint I hear a lot about African-Americans from Caribbean is that they are 'lazy'.



I don't live there so I don't know if that is the case.



Interestingly enough, this same dynamic plays out in the UK between African-Brits and Caribbean-Brits - with the Africans tending to look down on Caribbean people. I have had a young man from Cameroon tell me I'm 'so not like the typical Caribbean woman- all they want to do is party and have children'.

Another thought...
All that is not to say that there is not pressure to 'act white' or the concept of doing so in majority black countries.



As evidenced by the South African 'coconut' debate, that pressure is still there -but it is largely applied by ourselves. In this instance it is not so much acting white to be successful but a legacy of white supremacy (through colonialism, apartheid etc.) and a reflection of the fact that even in these places, the most wealthy and financially successful people are still white.



So some of us put the pressure on ourselves in all kinds of ways.



In Barbados, you get taxi men putting on painful Yankee twangs when talking to tourists and in the recent past, we had employers discriminating against people for wearing dreads or cornrows. Up to 14 years ago there was a huge uproar here when a female government minister wore her hair in natural twists. And this is in a country that is 90-95% black.



On the flipside, I have black friends who complain that they get people looking askance at them because they're black and like heavy metal or attended a private school or like to party at certain clubs.



Even more interestingly I find now that white Barbadians seem to be putting themselves under pressure to 'act white'. Up to 25, 30 years ago, there were white calypso bands, white footballers, white cricketers, lots of white civil servants etc. Since Independence it seems they are retreating more and more into a non-Caribbean identity to differentiate their whiteness - all the white musical bands now are rock/alternative, they tend towards polo, motorsport and swimming more and they hire one another in the private sector rather than work in the civil service. When we had a white police officer about 5 years ago, it was a MASSIVE deal because it has become so rare -there were articles in the press, people stopped and gawked at him on the streets etc.

1)I think that the whole concept of 'acting white' has more weight in majority-white nations. In those countries, yes I do think minorities are pressured either overtly or subtly to 'act white'/assimilate in order to get ahead. White people tend to feel uncomfortable around those that actively claim their particular racial/cultural identity.


2) For my one part, I can only refer to the year I spent in the UK studying and working. Happily, I did not experience any kind of pressure to conform or assimilate but that had a lot to do with the very liberal, bend over backward environment I was in - first at university and then as an intern in a progressive political think tank. Basically, no-one would dare suggest such a thing and they were some pretty laid-back folks to start with.



On the contrary, I rode this liberal attitude like a thoroughbred. Before I went to uni, one of my former editors (a fairly militant and brilliant Rastafarian who had also studied there) advised me to take every opportunity to 'educate those people', since as the only black person (in my department) and only Caribbean person (in 6 years in the department) they 'had' to listen to me. Right he was - I made a point of emphasising my culture at every opportunity - in every class discussion I would find a way to bring in a black/Caribbean perspective, at the think tank, I rocked an African-print headwrap with my work outfit etc. etc.



3)However, if I had lived in the UK on a long-term basis and had planned on doing so, I am pretty sure I would have began to felt the pressure. My older sister has lived there for 5 years now and teaches in a school in a working class area and feels that pressure, as do other friends and relatives.

dws- LOL! Did he perform 'Congo Man' or 'Bendwood Dick'? To name but two...

Wow...now that's amazing. There is really no way that you can spin a 49 year old white man from the South calling a 46 year old black man a 'boy'.


A boy! I can't believe he said that out loud. I know he thinks it - lots of them think it. But to actually say it- that is monumentally stupid.



Phillip Bailey- I agree with the comment you reposted from KYOne ...except for one thing- 'boy' isn't a racist code word. It's not even a code- that indicates some subtlety- there's absolutely no subtlety in that - it's just racist- no coding there. No dog-whistle to listen out for- he blared it loud and clear.

Kat said...
I want her to run only to watch the "you have to vote for the woman" screechers walk back their comments when it comes to Dr. Rice.



Wed Apr 09, 09:02:00 AM 2008



-------



Lawd, yes. I would pay good money to see the Steinems et al choke about Condi.



'What's that? You would support a woman because you're women? But just not THIS WOMAN? That sounds familiar..."

I had to laugh when I read that interview- if not, I would cry. Can you not just feel the frustration and bemusement of the reporter in that interview- "You're telling me you haven't heard about him before...". And then the poor soul keeps trying to shine some light into DMX's addled brain with "I mean it's a pretty big deal if a Black...".


While DMX giggles over Obama's name with all the intellectual depth of an 8 year old in a playground.



Sigh. Crack is a helluva drug.