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Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

chetlyzarko — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:11:00 -0000

I have an addendum where I think we can agree.

If this story is about:

when you pay a bunch of underage kids to come to the conference, allow them in to parties that you paid for and arranged with an open bar and then don't take the proper precautions to prevent them from being served. We do not know which, if any, of the campaigns actually did this. That's why we didn't accuse any of them of doing it and that's why we made clear that at least one campaign had denied and another had taken positive steps to prevent it.

Only one campaign paid a bunch of kids to come to the conference. It's well known - a google search would have turned it up. You could have interviewed me, for that matter (the Republican campaigns ignore you for reasons I'm sure you're well aware of - they involve a libel suit last year). Snyder. He denies having any party. That's probably true. The other campaigns had fairly tight staffs of (mostly) mid-aged folks. The Snyder people didn't come to other Governor's candidates parties - at least in significant numbers (the shirts, as you note, are what I base that on). Should the other 4 Gub candidates be responsible for Snyder's decision to bring a few hundred students on the island? Did the candidates that had open bars have the bars take normal precautions to comply with the law? Yes, or at least no evidence they didn't. And if the "open bars" were so "open" -- why would the students have needed to go to their hotels rooms to get more alcohol -- which we know they did? When I was young (and over 21), I always drank what was free before tapping into my own reserves.

But as I said two comments above, if this is what you want to criticize ... paying a bunch of underage kids to come to the island ... then the pox is on Snyder's campaign (its not a particularly huge one, since even he has apparently dispersed responsibility, but ...). That we agree on, albeit its not as big a story as "Underaged drinking problems for GOP". MM may not have "known" which campaigns did what because many chose not to respond to you, so MM effectively accused them all of doing it in the general way of writing the story. That's why I reacted to it the way I did.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

chetlyzarko — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:46:22 -0000

Actually, I do note how her report was written in such a way as to have not-credible portions of it. The overall tone is hyperbolic, it lacks key specifics, and the one specific we do have - rubbing off x's is both unusual and rules out at least two candidate parties (I can't attest to the third, Bouchard party).

Mr. Heywood's article goes far beyond the mere reporting you and I agree on would be reasonable. Just one example would be the second paragraph:

...had been served alcohol at official parties sponsored by several Republican candidates for governor ...

I don't see where Oblinger claimed SEVERAL Republican candidates for governor served her alcohol, let alone claimed any gubernatorial candidate did. She refers to "open bars" in the generic in her tirade, but doesn't identify any bar. The more I read it, the more I think ... this is a girl trying to brag to her peers about drinking more than she really did. Perhaps she deserves some investigation here, and if it rubs off on a candidate so be it, but I don't see that as likely and there is no evidence of any candidate being responsible at this point.

I also don't see where she's "named names" - unless you're talking about a few of her friends (which I don't see in this article or any other). She named no candidates, no bars or bartenders, no friends over 21 that got her the "drank". You haven't shown us any of the photos, in your journalistic excellence, probably because they had little editorial value to the conclusions you'd like to draw. Don't introduce into evidence concepts from evidence you haven't introduced into the debate. I can't reasonably respond to it.

Finally, if you don't want to be viewed as a George Soros hack, stop writing stories that act as that. Stop attacking your readers for raising fair questions. And when you're losing the argument, stop attacking them with ad homimens, like we're both doing now.

If this story were running in reverse and it was a young Democrat, you'd be accusing those doing the story writers of being on a witch-hunt ... that is, if it even saw the light of day in the media at all, which I suspect it wouldn't. Don't be surprised when a sting-with-video is done at the next Jefferson-Jack dinner, and I expect the writer to get the MM award for good journalism if it turns something up.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

EricBee — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 09:28:49 -0000

So, let me get this straight ... you finally concede that this person exists, and yet despite the admission by the Snyder campaign that she was on the island and a "volunteer" for his campaign, you really can't be sure if anyone really broke the law.

Incredibly silly, Chetly. Even worse than the time you tried to say that waterboarding isn't bad because there isn't a specific statute saying as such under U.S. law.

What ends am I trying to serve here? Very simple. I'm trying to point out the depths to which various campaigns sunk to win a stupid, meaningless straw poll. And, all the stuff pushed about the Snyder campaign forcing people to sign pledges to vote for him, and to show their ballots, came from a Republican ... not me.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

chetlyzarko — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:59:17 -0000

You know, this whole "You're a Republican consultant" line is wearing thin. It has no logical bearing on the arguments, Ed, and you should be ashamed to make it as an argument. Attack the arguments, not the messenger.

If it works against me, it works the other way. Your words would then mean nothing because your a George Soros funded operative, and Soros only funds Democrat and left causes.

Bias information can have some relevance in a discussion, but I've never concealed my history and it has no relevance to most arguments of logic anyway. It also doesn't ring true because I have an independent streak and have criticized the party where appropriate. I'm an individual who believes in the sovereignty of the individual, with conservative and liberty principles FIRST, before being a member of any party.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

chetlyzarko — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:46:06 -0000

Yeah, Ed, I can think of a reason.

Teenagers try to impress other teenagers. They occasionally tell "tall tales" - even on, or perhaps now especially on, blogs and facebook. Young men are reknowned for this - but society has evolved and even young woman get into it as well. I think the LCC and local police know that too, and when they don't have specific facts, as they don't here, their investigation, as the MIRS quote of Island police chief points out, is unlikely to result in anything. Everyone here talks of Oblinger's writing as gospel truth ... that's far from apparent.

Cut the bull-turd argument that I think "news" should avoid Republicans. My point was that the "journalism" here in this article lacked evidence for its claims, as does Brewer. You get evidence one of the candidates or campaigns did something active or negligent to encourage underage drinking, and I'll slam them hard. Publicly and behind the scenes. It's not there. Perhaps MM should have covered it - its certainly news in the sense that Brewer had a press conference. But that's it - so far.

That Snyder hired Oblinger explains a few things, which you seem to have come up with late in the game here, and it then becomes a pox on HIS campaign to some extent then, even if he denies his campaign admitted her to a party. Other campaigns had "teams", but most of a cadre of active CRs, loyal staff members, and older younger R's that were relatively small. Snyder's was the most vast I've ever seen, and he rightfully took some criticism for that based on their lack of knowledge about their candidate or politics, according to one video (ooh, I'm criticizing a Republican here.... something's out of place).

One uses stamps of some kind (some inks are very hard to transfer, contrary to your suggestion) as part of a larger system. The responsibilty, as you note, still devolves to the bartender at point of service - open bar or normal sales. I was carded once on the island at a bar and saw one person carded - so I know that happened too. Not in every case, but most cases involved clearly older people, as most of the attendance at these "parties" was 30 plus. Unless the other four campaigns did something special to discourage carding or encourage underaged folks in, I don't see their culpability. We don't even know they got in, or succeeded. Snyder's people were very visible because of their shirts - the underaged ones also disappeared from the island each night on the final ferry at midnight, according to the story-line. I saw no Snyder people at any other Gub. candidate event and some of Snyder's older staff at Bishop's event. Is it possible a small number slipped in somewhere or did other events? Sure - I can't prove a negative, and I'm not even sure where the moral culpability would be if the campaigns took reasonable pre-cautions in their dealings with the bartenders. Fortunately, criminal law is no longer based on Salem witch-hunt rules where a negative has to be proven. That's either your job or the LCC's.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

chetlyzarko — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:00:27 -0000

Of course we know she exists. Nice strawman. We don't know WHO she is. The news contacts I've seen are pretty hazy including the MIRS quip, in which they got the "sick" quote probably about one second before they got the no comment quote. It's hard for me to be defending "Republicans from their own conduct" when you don't even have a specific Republican action to attack - unless you mean the girl is a Republican, and we aren't sure of that. If you want me to defend the girl, I'm not. But I don't know she's a Republican, her conduct hasn't implicated other individuals (YET, with more evidence I CONCEDE IT MIGHT), and even she was your guilt by association reeks of witch-hunt and over-reaction.

You look incredibly silly trying to use this silly issue and the girl to your own political ends as a weapon in the Governors race. Get some evidence of a crime, or maybe work on trying to figure out budget solutions. This is a brutal waste of time and you and Brewer deserve to be called out for it - and to the extent the MSM has bit into the hook on it, it deserves blame too, although their reporting has been fairer than MM or you.

Why would a girl we know nothing about, other than that she's sick about the publicity, maybe not be credible? 1) she could have been exaggerating to impress other teenagers. that's pretty common, and the most likely explanation. with Occam's Razor, I pick that explanation without other evidence.. 2) the x's story doesn't fit - kind of like OJ's glove - because she talks of rubbing them off, as opposed to getting them. 3) at two parties, I can verify there were no x's - Bishop and Cox - there were logo stamps and door ID 4) she might be even an operative of Brewer, we simply don't know her. the story is written with curious rhetoric "rich Republicans", with vagueness to details other than the story Brewer wants to sell, etc.

Speaking of MIRS, right before that "sick" quote you point out, it wrote this:
---
Marks did tell MIRS, though, that without specific information on the names of the parties and bars at which this underage drinking took place, it may be difficult to take any official action. The Island's police department arrested nobody for underage drinking the weekend of Sept. 25 to 27, the dates of the Michigan Republican Party's (MRP) biennial leadership conference.
---
No one arrested! I saw island police several times. They were out in force, as they are every year. You'd think in such a target rich environment they'd pick someone up? And they are non-partisan.

There are many explanations that involve no crime by Republicans. Including the evidence that no arrests were made.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

EricBee — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:01:09 -0000

Ummm, people are actually writing news stories about this and contacting the girl who wrote the blog. So, yes, we do know for certain who wrote these. She even told MIRS that she was sick about the publicity this has created.

So, I don't know. Oh wait, I do know. You look incredibly silly trying to protect Republicans from their own conduct.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

chetlyzarko — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:36:30 -0000

A) We don't know who the blog ramblings came from. We don't even know that the named woman really did write them, as this is the internet. I suspect the latter is true, but I have no idea who she is, whether she's a Republican, how she got to the island, whether indeed she was on the island. Ask a lawyer, Eric, if this diary would meet evidence requirements -- it would at least require some authenticating testimony.

The diary does raise some questions.
B) Ah, "general complicity". You are reduced to this. OK. Sounds like "guilt by association", but I'll let you have this. What I won't let you have is that Cox and Bishop's party's are not implicated, even by this blog rambling. Maybe Bouchard's, but you have no real evidence then. Snyder apparently didn't host a party with alcohol. No mention of Hoekstra - I don't recall he had one either. Quit tarring Republicans generally. It's bad logic and reflects badly on you. You have the barest thread of an attack on Bouchard, and even then its pretty bare.

C) Again, all of it depends on the accuracy of the story. The story doesn't seem credible in my mind because she writes of rubbing off stamps, but it is the stamp which gets you the alcohol in most bars I've been to. No stamp would be a red flag to card. The rest of the writing was so exaggerated as to be childish "bragging" that is often not true (we all did that as kids), or a good old-fashioned set-up, which Brewer is easily capable of. Ask Butch Hollowell about that.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

chetlyzarko — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:24:23 -0000

I think RM "admitted" that young people generally "beat the system", not that he witnessed it at the conference. You might do what a reporter does when making such assertions - ask him for clarification, rather than twisting his words.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

chetlyzarko — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:22:52 -0000

Yes, Todd, if I saw a minor drinking I not only would admit it, I'd have dealt with the situation at the time by reporting the minor to an authority. You are a piece of work to suggest otherwise.

You are paid by George Soros money - would you blow the whistle on a Democratic cause? I don't know you well enough ... Give me a break. We've been through this before about argument and bias.

Investigate? Go for it. It's a witch-hunt and distraction from the budget situation. I suppose all crime should be investigated, but prosecutors and police use some discretion with limited resources. It's the Governor's jurisdiction though (DNR/state police) so I'm sure the outcome will be unbiased. Report back when she's done.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

EricBee — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 08:29:00 -0000

Thanks for moving the goal posts here, Chetly (as usual).

A. The "blog ramblings" you're talking about came from someone who not only attended the parties, but participated in the illegal activity. You are free to call a self-confession "no evidence," however. To me and other normal people, that just makes you look incredibly silly.

B. As always, you confuse legal complicity with general complicity. This is like when you tried to argue that water boarding is not bad because there is not a specific U.S. statute making it illegal. If you throw a party -- a wedding reception -- and you hire a catering service to provide food and drink, if a bunch of kids got drunk and out-of-hand, people don't talk about the wedding reception as if it were the catering service's party. They talk about the wedding reception as if it were your party. No one cares about who catered the thing. Why? It's your party.

C. The specific, legal onus for breaking the law may well rest with the individual minor who washed an "X" off his or her hand, but the responsibility for creating an environment where that was the bar to gain access to an illegal substance -- at a party thrown by law enforcement officials who should know better -- rests with the people who threw the party. Again, what apparently happened here was that IDs were checked at the door, and security went on autopilot afterwards. No one bothered to make sure that the X's weren't washed off, no one gave two thoughts to the extraordinarily large number of young people consuming drinks, no one checked to make sure that the catering staff was even checking the backs of people's hands. And, this happened at parties sponsored by law enforcement officials, who should know better than anyone the tricks minors use to obtain alcohol.

D. B and C apply to every other social setting in existence anywhere in the United States. Apparently not politics, where members of the Republican base see it as their duty to refuse to hold accountable their elected official when they demonstrate poor judgment.

And, of course, there is the outstanding reality that this environment was created with the express purpose in mind of skewing an otherwise meaningless straw poll.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

ToddAHeywood — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 01:50:59 -0000

Chetly

Please see Republican Michigander's comment below. Where he admits that the underage drinking happened by "beating the system." How many others witnessed the underage drinking and did nothing about it? How many others saw the youth washing the mark off their hands to "beat the system?"

Are you denying that excessive alcohol consumption both legal and illegal occurs during the Policy Conference? Are you denying that any minors drank for free at these parties?

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

chetlyzarko — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 01:47:16 -0000

Actually, Eric, I think there may be a legal difference if the person you hire owns the liquor license. If I buy a round of drinks for everyone at a bar informally, the bar still has the legal obligation not to serve in both underage and known overintoxication liability cases, and I'd be mighty surprised that my decision to foot the tab on the round would subject me to liability. I'd like to see your legal authority for your assertion.

Of course, if the buyer did something actively or negligently didn't do something that caused the improper service, there might be liability. From the testimony of RepublicanMichigander, and I think you find him an honest source if I recall, Bouchard's party did have ID at door. I can't see what he didn't negligently - if a minor defrauded the system most of the onus is on the minor, and some on the bartender who handed it to them (for not double checking at point of service).

But we don't even have evidence of a single illegal service. We have the blog ramblings of someone ... someone who can barely write, got key facts wrong, etc.

Give me a break.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

ToddAHeywood — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 01:41:07 -0000

You say you did not see it. But you also, Chetly, are a Republican consultant-- would you admit witnessing a minor drinking at any of these parties if you had seen it? I don't know, because I don't know you, but I have a hard time believing you would blow the whistle on the hands that feed you.

That said, Brewer has called for a criminal investigation. If Mr. Cox, Congressman Hoekstra, Mr. Snyder, Sheriff Bouchard and others have no concerns about underage drinking at these parties, then they should most certainly stand up and support such a call. That is certainly the most certain and swift way to find out whether this is political hype or reality.

After all an investigation can only serve to clear the GOP, right?

This is after all an allegation of a crime. Let us see what the police find.

Re: Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

chetlyzarko — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 01:34:34 -0000

With all due respect, you don't have any evidence, other than the blog post ramblings of a self-proclaimed (we don't even have evidence this person was on the island, is a dem plant, etc.) CMU College Republican, of any underage drinking anywhere. When the State Police (which is under a Democratic Governor's jurisdiction) prosecute someone for this - let the ethical journalism world know.

Further, there is something that damages the credibility of the alleged blog author. I read the blogger's archived writing - she states they "rubbed off x's" on their hands to get free drinks. The standard security at a bar puts a stamp on everyone's hands and the stamp is the pass - rubbing off the stamp would inform the bartender not to serve. Of course, some bar could have messed that up with a bad system, I suppose, but I personally attended and vividly remember a stamp placed on my hand (I'm in my 30s) at Bishop and Cox's parties. I also know about 50% of the Republicans on the island - and remember only seeing a couple of Snyder people (whom I knew to be of age) at the Bishop party and none at the Cox party (stands to reason, he's running against Snyder). I can't personally attest to the Bishop or Snyder events - didn't attend them. I also only had a few beers each night - I'm well beyond the age where excessive alcohol has an allure, other than to create a nasty hangover.

So Bishop and Cox are off the hook, in many ways. The blogger mentions not being there, and the parties used the opposite hand-stamp (also, I remember it was a square logo stamp, not an "x") method, so there goes the "chief law enforcement officer responsible" fiction. Brewer's clearly trying to tar all Republicans by association here.

Finally, Mark Brewer was all over the island, with spies and video cameras. If it happened, I'd think he'd have YouTube video evidence and this would be a real story. Where's the evidence? Also, if it happened, why didn't Brewer come forward a week ago?

Re: Lansing city attorney’s office still grappling with FOIA practices

chetlyzarko — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 13:17:19 -0000

It's not a violation of STATE law ... Cox is right. If you want to figure out if it violates HIPPA, contact the US AG.

That's not saying this wasn't an error, but errors in the favor of openness are more tolerable than ones favoring secrecy, which is a plausible reason for Cox's ruling? FOIA has a provision protecting disclosure as an option even if "exempt" ... only other laws would require non-disclosure in certain cases. One would have to closely look at HIPAA, etc. to determine if there is liability here.

And its hard to sympathize with a guy who filed a false police report when his information is disclosed., although this article isn't written clearly enough for me to be sure that's whose medical info. was involved.

Re: Grebner lawsuit highlights recent pattern of young Republican scandals

EricBee — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 10:42:22 -0000

As usual, Chetly, you're trying to make this into something that it is clearly not. At issue isn't whether Osama bin Laden's rhetoric is acceptable in 65 years, but whether someone's attitudes (or those of an entire political party) can be accurately judged based on something said a long time ago. You said it yourself, it would be unfair to call me a homophobe because of something I said just two decades ago; yet, you seem to think it's okay to judge the entire Democratic Party based on something Robert Byrd said before the Civil Rights movement. So, I guess a thank you is in order to you for making my point for me.

Re: Grebner lawsuit highlights recent pattern of young Republican scandals

ebrayton — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 10:25:03 -0000

chetly wrote:

Ed, you have seriously misread the facebook data, I believe. I'm sure it's an accident, and hope you retract below, admitting the numbers favor the explanation I offer.

It appears you are correct. As I am not a friend to either of them on Facebook, I could not do a direct search and had to have someone else do it for me. I then misanalyzed the evidence in the picture. Mea culpa.

I also don't see you writing articles on the bad things said by Democrat precinct delegates - admit it, Ed, your publication choose what the issues and people it prefers to investigate.

Is there such a pattern to report on? I'm not aware of one. If you can show me a series of incidents involving Democratic precinct delegates and operatives around the country posting racist and bigoted things on new social media websites and causing national controversies for it in the last year, please do. I am not aware of any. Every single incident I reported was reported accurately. That is the only thing that matters to me.

Re: Grebner lawsuit highlights recent pattern of young Republican scandals

chetlyzarko — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:01:27 -0000

Ed, you have seriously misread the facebook data, I believe. I'm sure it's an accident, and hope you retract below, admitting the numbers favor the explanation I offer.

You apparently did a search of Dennis Lennox - and found 17 people with the words Dennis Lennox in their name, not that Dennis Lennox only has 17 friends. How do I know - Dennis and I have 259 MUTUAL FRIENDS (which shows up on my page as his facebook friend) when I duplicated the search. You then did a search in a pop up box of only his friends for "Brad Dennis," and found the one and only one friend so named. When I look at Dennis Lennox's home page, I see he has 3436 friends. If indeed he had only 17 friends and Brad Dennis was one, the numbers would favor your interpretation. Brad Dennis has fewer friends, but I only know he has 42 "mutual friends" with me (I can't see his total because I'm not his friend on facebook, yet) - including Ron Weiser (I presume you don't believe Ron is guilty now) ironically. 42 mutual implies hundreds of friends though.

I commend you on condemnation of Byrd, et al (although Byrd never left the party) and your claim of not voting Democrat. But your articles that are anti-Republican, without correspondingly being anti-Democrat, betray something. Functionally, its irrelevant whether you pull a Green or Libertarian lever - you are paid by Soros to do anti-Republican bidding (lest that not really be important, which it isn't, your editor set the precedent of noting how important my sources of income are allegedly to my reasoning) and effectively that taints the body of your work. You claim your publication reports on Democratic scandals - but it does so differently than it does on Republican ones. First, I don't see original stuff coming from MM - the Detroit scandals came from MSM sources. Second, you're going after much smaller fish - which is fine - small stories are important. But you allege a "pattern" of "young Republican" conduct with six alleged bad apples? There are millions of young Republicans and millions of young Democrats ... you've found something that says anything about a pattern in six? Come on.

I also don't see you writing articles on the bad things said by Democrat precinct delegates - admit it, Ed, your publication choose what the issues and people it prefers to investigate. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with that - Fox and MSNBC do it too and its part of democracy. But don't lay claim to the holy ground of neutrality either, which this site does attempt.

On that note, I'll try to fade away as the issue and protagonists aren't worthy of protracted thought. Hopefully you can understand my pov, at least, and you agree about the facebook numbers.

Re: Grebner lawsuit highlights recent pattern of young Republican scandals

chetlyzarko — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:28:53 -0000

I got the Byrd quote from Wikipedia. Who cares whence it came from - will Osama bin Laden's terrorist rhetoric, if surviving 65 years from now, be acceptable? Suggesting that Robert Byrd's association with the Klan is an unacceptable way for the Democratic Party to associate itself - regardless of what's in Byrd's heart - is not unreasonable. And its not like saying you're still (or you were ever) homophobic because you uttered an anti-gay word 20 years ago - it'd be like saying the homosexual lobby shouldn't accept you because you beat the snot out of homosexuals 20 years ago. I don't think many blacks (or whites) would think Klan membership = saying the word gay, or even saying the n-word, in degree of severity.

That said, I'll retreat somewhat from this issue. None of the protagonists are much worthy of engaging my time further.

Re: Grebner lawsuit highlights recent pattern of young Republican scandals

ebrayton — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:32:31 -0000

Yes, I am well aware that lots of people have Facebook friends they don't know. I have hundreds on mine as well. It is clearly not necessarily true that merely having someone as a Facebook friend means they know them, or know them well. But it is one piece of possible evidence. And in this case, Dennis only has 17 friends on Facebook, as the picture shows, so that tends to undercut the reason you offer for doubt.

Re: Grebner lawsuit highlights recent pattern of young Republican scandals

ebrayton — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:20:01 -0000

You know chetly, as I wrote this piece I predicted inside my head the lecture that would pour from your keyboard upon its publication. I could have written your comment for you word for word before you did, so predictable is the faux outrage. The irony is that the one painting with a broad brush here is you because you are so trapped into that false dichotomy where one can only criticize Republicans if they support Democrats. Thus you write:

Well, you clearly support (or lean to or avoid painting with the same brushes) the Party (Democratic) that spawned the Klu Klux Klan.

I neither support nor lean to the Democratic party. I have never voted for a Democrat in any election in my entire life.

As for Robert Byrd, I think that dottering old man is an embarrassment to both the Democratic party and West Virginia and I think they should have voted him out long ago (or better yet, never elected him in the first place). Of course, even without that, your argument is absurd. The element of the Democratic party a century ago that supported the KKK, the Dixiecrats like Strom Thurmond, all left the party for the Republicans decades ago. Does that mean that all Republicans are racist? Of course not. I have never made such a claim, nor would I ever make such a claim, nor have I ever even implied such a thing. It is only your imagination that reads such an implication into this article.

These are simple statements of fact, not one of which you actually attempt to challenge. Yes, there really is a pattern lately of young Republicans, and some old ones as well, getting into serious trouble using new social media to send out inflammatory and often racist messages. And yes, there really is a pattern of young Republicans in Michigan doing the same thing. Several of those incidents are noted, thus establishing the pattern.

Could one do the same thing with the Democrats? Of course they could, especially in Michigan. One might even cover a whole range of stories about corruption among Democrats in the Detroit city government, from the disgraced and convicted former mayor Kwame Kilpatrick to the disgraced and convicted former chair of the city council Monica Conyers, wife of Democratic Rep. John Conyers, who may well get caught up in his wife's problems. Oh gee, this very news outlet has been covering that story as well. Why? Because it's true, regardless of which party is implicated. I don't recall your complaints that by covering those stories and presenting the facts about them we have somehow implicated all Democrats as corrupt.

The funny thing, Chetly, is that you are so blinded by partisanship that you falsely presume that everyone else is as well.

Re: Grebner lawsuit highlights recent pattern of young Republican scandals

chetlyzarko — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:27:58 -0000

Erding, comments that point out the fallacy of attacking a group by pawning up the indiscretions of individuals loosely affiliated with it?

Pointing out that Democratic Senators ELECTED - in 2009 - a Klan member to lead the Senate? or that "Facebook friend" is hardly evidence of anything?

Ride high on your victory, Erding. Wish the demise of the R's - the "end of history" was written about when the Cold War ended, but it seemed to chug along in different ways anyway. You may be right - the GOP may be at a low point in the political cycle - but power corrupts and the political cycle is born.

Re: Grebner lawsuit highlights recent pattern of young Republican scandals

Erding — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:18:53 -0000

And it is comments just like chetlyzarko's that make it so painfully onbious that the GOP is losing touch with reality.

Re: Grebner lawsuit highlights recent pattern of young Republican scandals

chetlyzarko — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:15:20 -0000

Oh, I lost it in my being appalled at the central grotesque-logic tenet of the story.

You are actually using Facebook friend status to try to prove a connection between two individuals? I have nearly 600 "friends" on facebook - I rarely request new ones and almost always say yes to friend requests because I'm in an outreach business. I know politicians who just started who get 600 friends in a few weeks. Most of these folks are not people I've met - most but not all are people I have some vague knowledge of it - some I've never met but have a coincidental shared interest - etc. Lennox, an elected official, no surprise, has over 3000 friends. That Bradley Dennis would friend request him, or vice versa, doesn't mean they knew each other.

You're tech-savvy enough to know that, which makes your use of the point here - if that was the extent of the "evidence" you hinted at last week - pathetic. If MM has been reduced to documenting the facebook connections of college republicans, it has no doubt lived up to its financiers dreams.