Disqus - Latest Comments for pat

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:37:26 -0000

Great article, Mark.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:49:58 -0000

In a word, "no." It may help those who are already politically active conservative Christians to advance some more of their agenda, but Christians actually run the risk of over-stepping and creating a backlash against Christ if we're perceived as just being about a political agenda.

I can be pretty harsh in my criticism of my own side (I'm a conservative Christian and a Bush supporter) but I read enough from the left to get pretty irritated with them, as well.

For example, the article you referenced above has the following quote from the Village Voice: "Also troubling, he says: 'Republicans without a doubt have made some, if only marginal, gains among black voters.'"

I find it SO typical and hypocritical that the party that complains about how "divided" we are also finds it troubling when black voters start to leave the fold and vote Republican. Shouldn't it be good news that blacks are perceiving that Republicans have some ideas that appeal to them, as well? Score one for less divisiveness.

Re: Why do the nations rage?

pat — Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:37:26 -0000

Great article, Mark.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:37:26 -0000

Great article, Mark.

Re: Hmmm…

pat — Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:49:58 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:49:58 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:10:52 -0000

Right now your prediction is running at about .42 on the Iowa Electronic Futures Market.

Sorry, just an election flashback. So glad to be out of the habit of reading about the "horserace."

Wow, this comment has nothing to do with your post. Never mind...

Re: A Prediction

pat — Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:10:52 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:10:52 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:39:51 -0000

I was about to make the same comment, except I do know a few more than 6. I've liked the things I've read by Mark Noll and Richard John Neuhaus (although I wonder what it means to be an "evangelical" in Neuhaus' case - I'm not questioning the definition, it's just interesting).

Who the Sam Hill are Robert and Roberta Ahmanson?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:42:57 -0000

Oh - I mean "Howard," and oh, I just looked them up by following your link. And oh, sorry for the snotty tone - I didn't realize they were financiers.

Seriously, it's sort of weird to be an evangelical and not know some of these people. I guesss I just haven't progressed far enough in the movement to be let in on some of this stuff.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:50:31 -0000

This is my last comment: Looking over the list, I think this says more about Time's view of what ultimately matters - politics - than it does about evangelicalism.

But having said that, I'm not sure who I'd put on the list - I just don't think I'd arrange them in the same order.

Jesus would definitely be there, though.

Re: Evangelicals in America

pat — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:39:51 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:39:51 -0000

Re: Evangelicals in America

pat — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:42:57 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:42:57 -0000

Re: Evangelicals in America

pat — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:50:31 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:50:31 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:24:42 -0000

Yes, those are good points. I'm just not sure that if you asked your average Evangelical in the pew who the influential people are, you'd get some of these political hacks. I think you hit on something with Tony Campolo. What about Al Mohler at Southern Baptist Seminary? And is it only my proximity to (and six year stint at)his church that makes me think John Piper has had a much more lasting impact on Evangelicalism than David Barton or almost any of those other political people?

I don't know...just sorta thinking out loud.

But you may be right that the rank and file Evangelicals are the ones promoting these people as the "Golden Boys (and Girls)." In a few of the cases, that's sad...

Re: Evangelicals in America

pat — Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:24:42 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:24:42 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Fri, 04 Feb 2005 14:56:11 -0000

Thanks, Mark. You call it quirkiness, I call it sleep deprivation.

Re: Shiny Corduroys

pat — Fri, 04 Feb 2005 15:56:11 -0000

Thanks, Mark. You call it quirkiness, I call it sleep deprivation.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Fri, 04 Feb 2005 15:56:11 -0000

Thanks, Mark. You call it quirkiness, I call it sleep deprivation.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:14:21 -0000

Wow - life is disturbing sometimes...I've never been to IKEA - can't imagine myself enjoying it for even a minute - but now I'm afraid to go, in case I catch the bug.

Re: Violent Ikea

pat — Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:14:21 -0000

Wow - life is disturbing sometimes...I've never been to IKEA - can't imagine myself enjoying it for even a minute - but now I'm afraid to go, in case I catch the bug.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:14:21 -0000

Wow - life is disturbing sometimes...I've never been to IKEA - can't imagine myself enjoying it for even a minute - but now I'm afraid to go, in case I catch the bug.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:58:03 -0000

And let me tell you, there's nothing more desperate than a bearded she-wolf on a mission for some cow-flesh.

Re: Violent Ikea

pat — Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:58:03 -0000

And let me tell you, there's nothing more desperate than a bearded she-wolf on a mission for some cow-flesh.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:58:03 -0000

And let me tell you, there's nothing more desperate than a bearded she-wolf on a mission for some cow-flesh.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:15:58 -0000

Shoot - I feel so bad for laughing so hard at this. Must put on the hair shirt again tonight...

This is one of the top ten funny things I've read on the internet.

Re: A More Perfect Consumer Church

pat — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:15:58 -0000

Shoot - I feel so bad for laughing so hard at this. Must put on the hair shirt again tonight...

This is one of the top ten funny things I've read on the internet.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:15:58 -0000

Shoot - I feel so bad for laughing so hard at this. Must put on the hair shirt again tonight...

This is one of the top ten funny things I've read on the internet.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:33:56 -0000

A multi-faceted gospel?! What the...?!

Re: Restraining the Gospel?

pat — Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:33:56 -0000

A multi-faceted gospel?! What the...?!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:33:56 -0000

A multi-faceted gospel?! What the...?!

Re: A Quote from Hybels

pat — Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:04:38 -0000

Very cool to hear Hybels saying this. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the multi-ethnic thing figured out, and I agree that the way Willow Creek does it will be different than will work for us, but it's nice to hear him say it.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:04:38 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:04:38 -0000

Re: Clarification

pat — Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:14:04 -0000

Well, there was this guy in the New testament who liked to overstate things for effect, too...

For what it's worth, though, I knew what you meant.

Oh, and I may have just stepped in it myself, too, with my own megachurch post. Oh, well...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:14:04 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:14:04 -0000

Re: Bad Day

pat — Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:37:04 -0000

Sorry, Mark. Some of my most unsanctified moments have involved the towing of a vehicle of mine. I can imagine how you must be feeling. I'll pray for your wife (and you).

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:37:04 -0000

Sorry, Mark. Some of my most unsanctified moments have involved the towing of a vehicle of mine. I can imagine how you must be feeling. I'll pray for your wife (and you).

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:37:04 -0000

Sorry, Mark. Some of my most unsanctified moments have involved the towing of a vehicle of mine. I can imagine how you must be feeling. I'll pray for your wife (and you).

Re: Clarification

pat — Wed, 25 May 2005 14:51:21 -0000

Wow - I just saw this. Sorry I didn't respond earlier.

Yes - I meant Jesus. Obviously.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Wed, 25 May 2005 14:51:21 -0000

Wow - I just saw this. Sorry I didn't respond earlier.

Yes - I meant Jesus. Obviously.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Wed, 25 May 2005 14:51:21 -0000

Wow - I just saw this. Sorry I didn't respond earlier.

Yes - I meant Jesus. Obviously.

Re: Rethinking the Atonement

pat — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:24:49 -0000

Not to judge, but...

Oh, forget it.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:24:49 -0000

Not to judge, but...

Oh, forget it.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:24:49 -0000

Not to judge, but...

Oh, forget it.

Re: Quick Question about Missional Education

pat — Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:17:53 -0000

I forgot you asked me about this earlier, Mark. At St. Paul Fellowship we were invited to participate in a Sunday night "Leading Edge Discipleship Training School" that was started by Bethel Christian Fellowship and Christ Community Church in St. Paul. Bethel is a "large church" by my standards (300?) but not SO large. By combining our resources, we are able to offer a lot of great classes to our members (classes we could never pull together on our own).

We have a three-year "Discipleship Track" and a three year "Leadership Track." Not accredited or anything, but good solid biblical education.

Lots of Bible classes, classes on spirituality, and electives. I'm teaching on Tolkien in the fall and Esther/Ruth in the winter, then one of our guys is teaching on "The Theology of Great Hymns" in the spring. By putting together those three classes, we get to offer our people a choice of six classes per quarter.

I guess the point is that partnerships can be a great thing. I know these guys real well, though, and we've talked through our differing theological emphases carefully. We all have a "major on the majors" approach to differences, or this would never work.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:17:53 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:17:53 -0000

Re: Quick Question about Missional Education

pat — Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:57:32 -0000

You should ask your uncle about it. I'm the "new guy," so I'm sort of out of the loop still. I was sure excited when they asked me to join them, though.

Come to think of it, I remember meeting one of your aunts. I think she took my "Amos" class, if I'm not mistaken.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:57:32 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:57:32 -0000

Re: Of Illness and Mission

pat — Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:17:40 -0000

It's a tension I live in all the time. I talk incessantly about the neighborhood, but I used to feel bad doing so, given that a majority of our people didn't live in the neighborhood.

Now I don't feel bad about it. I think I've managed to communicate the concept that Frogtown is our "outreach focus," but that we need people from all over to make this successful. When people choose to move into the neighborhood we celebrate it - I talk a lot about what a great thing it is that we now have 16 households within walking distance of the church - but I try to do it in a way that doesn't exclude those outside the neighborhood.

Realistically, my focus on the neighborhood may limit our growth in attracting the "already-churched" who are looking for a place to worship but don't live in Frogtown. Unless they have a heart for the city, they may not appreciate a fair amount of the things we do as a church (Wednesday kids' program, tutoring, block club,considering ESL classes, etc.). By focusing so much of our efforts on the neighborhood we give up our ability to be a cool, "full-service" church with lots of programs for the church-shopper.

But then, that's not our gig. We rejoice when a new person from the neighborhood starts attending, especially an unchurched person. It's a slow process, though...

So in sum - I guess if you're really going to focus on the neighborhoood, it's going to mean some trade-offs. You can't do everything, and you'll be choosing to focus efforts on some people who may not be as naturally inclined to join your group, at the expense of focusing on the people you might jive with naturally.

Just have to decide if that's what God is calling you to. In our case it seems to be...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:17:40 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:17:40 -0000

Re: Of Illness and Mission

pat — Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:33:26 -0000

Well, the people who live in the neighborhood are the ones who are most likely to make connections - so if anything we just encourage them to get to know their neighbors. Our block club is probably going to be a great way to help that happen. We just had our first meeting on Wednesday, so it's a little early to tell, but I think it will be effective.

Basically, working side by side on issues that we all share is a great way to build connections. So, for example, one of the new guys from the neighborhood that I met at the "block club planning meeting" is already signed up to help us organize a block party for his street. He has a desire to improve his community, so even though he may not share the beliefs of our church, he is happy to work along-side us. That sort of thing is really good, and I hope to see more of it as the block club expands.

Of course - getting involved in groups that are already up and running is another great way. My advice is to choose those thigs that motivate you, and in which you can have an impact, and help out!

As far as integrity goes, graham, I don't see that the two scenarios you mentioned have to lack it. A church is more than its outreach, and people can have a lot of good reasons to belong to a church outside of their neighborhood. I think the problem comes in when the leadership of the church starts to feel that they have to move off their mission, or mute it, in order to please the people who may not share it. Then there's a problem.

But for us, many of our most involved volunteers live outside the neighborhood, so they are serving the mission with integrity without actually moving in.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:33:26 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:33:26 -0000

Re: An open post to my fellow techno-elites

pat — Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:08:09 -0000

You talk about 8-tracks as though they aren't new technology...I still remember when we got our first one.

Man...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:08:09 -0000

You talk about 8-tracks as though they aren't new technology...I still remember when we got our first one.

Man...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:08:09 -0000

You talk about 8-tracks as though they aren't new technology...I still remember when we got our first one.

Man...

Re: West Bank Tea Room

pat — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:52:11 -0000

Wow - you already have a name for it! Sounds like a fun idea. Gotta have high speed internet access - I suppose that goes without saying nowadays.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:52:11 -0000

Wow - you already have a name for it! Sounds like a fun idea. Gotta have high speed internet access - I suppose that goes without saying nowadays.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:52:11 -0000

Wow - you already have a name for it! Sounds like a fun idea. Gotta have high speed internet access - I suppose that goes without saying nowadays.

Re: Bethel Seminary

pat — Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:58:50 -0000

Wow - very cool, Mark! Professor VanS has a nice ring to it.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:58:50 -0000

Wow - very cool, Mark! Professor VanS has a nice ring to it.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:58:50 -0000

Wow - very cool, Mark! Professor VanS has a nice ring to it.

Re: Breaking Blog Silence: A Lament

pat — Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:48:08 -0000

Wow, Mark. I heard about this from Joel's e-mail, and I came here to get more details.

I'm really sorry, and I'm praying for you.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:48:08 -0000

Wow, Mark. I heard about this from Joel's e-mail, and I came here to get more details.

I'm really sorry, and I'm praying for you.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:48:08 -0000

Wow, Mark. I heard about this from Joel's e-mail, and I came here to get more details.

I'm really sorry, and I'm praying for you.

Re: The American Idiot Tour: Fun for the Whole Family

pat — Sat, 17 Sep 2005 21:21:56 -0000

Gosh, Mark. This is the best post I've read on any blog in a while.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Sat, 17 Sep 2005 21:21:56 -0000

Gosh, Mark. This is the best post I've read on any blog in a while.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

pat — Sat, 17 Sep 2005 21:21:56 -0000

Gosh, Mark. This is the best post I've read on any blog in a while.