http://disqus.com/people/a167adef828f0e9986b4f7a30a00f7df/enTue, 02 Jan 2007 16:37:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/heretical_anabaptists/#comment-1219488Hmmm...I guess I am an Orthodox J-dub.Van SMon, 30 Aug 2004 10:59:18 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_70/#comment-5285022Hmmm...I guess I am an Orthodox J-dub.Van SMon, 30 Aug 2004 10:59:18 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_70/#comment-5285024Hmmm...I guess I am an Orthodox J-dub.Van SMon, 30 Aug 2004 10:59:18 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/code_of_techno_ethics/#comment-1219500blorge: you might be dreaming. I think the best we can expect from technology is to use it to counter the ill-effects of other technology, like fire-fighters who use a controlled fire to keep the spread of a forest fire. I don't believe people in modern societies are more connected than those that live in traditional societies. Technology inherently allows us to move beyond traditional limits, enabling us a higher degree of individual freedom and determinance. These things lessen our dependence upon a shared culture. Inter-dependence is replaced with a one-way dependence upon those who provide and service technology. In such an arrangement, individualism is the thing being served by a community of technicians, rather than the community being served by the collective effort of individuals.<br><br>I'm pretty tired right now (I just preached at our Sunday evening gathering), so I'm sorry if I don't make sense.Van SSun, 12 Sep 2004 20:54:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_02/#comment-5285071blorge: you might be dreaming. I think the best we can expect from technology is to use it to counter the ill-effects of other technology, like fire-fighters who use a controlled fire to keep the spread of a forest fire. I don't believe people in modern societies are more connected than those that live in traditional societies. Technology inherently allows us to move beyond traditional limits, enabling us a higher degree of individual freedom and determinance. These things lessen our dependence upon a shared culture. Inter-dependence is replaced with a one-way dependence upon those who provide and service technology. In such an arrangement, individualism is the thing being served by a community of technicians, rather than the community being served by the collective effort of individuals.<br><br>I'm pretty tired right now (I just preached at our Sunday evening gathering), so I'm sorry if I don't make sense.Van SSun, 12 Sep 2004 20:54:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_02/#comment-5285075blorge: you might be dreaming. I think the best we can expect from technology is to use it to counter the ill-effects of other technology, like fire-fighters who use a controlled fire to keep the spread of a forest fire. I don't believe people in modern societies are more connected than those that live in traditional societies. Technology inherently allows us to move beyond traditional limits, enabling us a higher degree of individual freedom and determinance. These things lessen our dependence upon a shared culture. Inter-dependence is replaced with a one-way dependence upon those who provide and service technology. In such an arrangement, individualism is the thing being served by a community of technicians, rather than the community being served by the collective effort of individuals.<br></br><br>I'm pretty tired right now (I just preached at our Sunday evening gathering), so I'm sorry if I don't make sense.</br>Van SSun, 12 Sep 2004 20:54:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/late_night/#comment-1219508I updated it. Sorry dude.Van SMon, 20 Sep 2004 16:52:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_52/#comment-5285095I updated it. Sorry dude.Van SMon, 20 Sep 2004 16:52:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_52/#comment-5285098I updated it. Sorry dude.Van SMon, 20 Sep 2004 16:52:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/money_money_money/#comment-1219510Frank--I think it is a balance. If everyone involved in Missio Dei were located in this area and had a missional mindset, I think it would be much more feasible to be more decentralized. Having centralizing elements injects a level of momentum and intention into a church plant. It is a "fix" that can help get things going. Unfortunately, the fix can become the norm.<br><br>In Paul's day, it seems that Paul left healthy churches alone. However, if a church was unhealthy, they went into a sort of "remedial" stage where Paul would have to deal with their problems and perhaps send an apostolic envoy (like Timothy or Titus). During this season of unhealthy, the church needed some centralization (apostolic ministry) to get back to a place of health. This is why I feel the need to start more centralized than I'd like--because we need to relearn what it means to be church. As we learn that, we will become more and more decentralized.<br><br>The funny thing to me is that many of the models for success being pointed at today are highly centralized. If we look at that through the lense I offered in the previous paragraph, that means that our prominant models are inherently unhealthy.Van SWed, 22 Sep 2004 13:38:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_84/#comment-5285106Frank--I think it is a balance. If everyone involved in Missio Dei were located in this area and had a missional mindset, I think it would be much more feasible to be more decentralized. Having centralizing elements injects a level of momentum and intention into a church plant. It is a "fix" that can help get things going. Unfortunately, the fix can become the norm.<br><br>In Paul's day, it seems that Paul left healthy churches alone. However, if a church was unhealthy, they went into a sort of "remedial" stage where Paul would have to deal with their problems and perhaps send an apostolic envoy (like Timothy or Titus). During this season of unhealthy, the church needed some centralization (apostolic ministry) to get back to a place of health. This is why I feel the need to start more centralized than I'd like--because we need to relearn what it means to be church. As we learn that, we will become more and more decentralized.<br><br>The funny thing to me is that many of the models for success being pointed at today are highly centralized. If we look at that through the lense I offered in the previous paragraph, that means that our prominant models are inherently unhealthy.Van SWed, 22 Sep 2004 13:38:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_84/#comment-5285108Frank--I think it is a balance. If everyone involved in Missio Dei were located in this area and had a missional mindset, I think it would be much more feasible to be more decentralized. Having centralizing elements injects a level of momentum and intention into a church plant. It is a "fix" that can help get things going. Unfortunately, the fix can become the norm.<br></br><br>In Paul's day, it seems that Paul left healthy churches alone. However, if a church was unhealthy, they went into a sort of "remedial" stage where Paul would have to deal with their problems and perhaps send an apostolic envoy (like Timothy or Titus). During this season of unhealthy, the church needed some centralization (apostolic ministry) to get back to a place of health. This is why I feel the need to start more centralized than I'd like--because we need to relearn what it means to be church. As we learn that, we will become more and more decentralized.</br><br></br><br>The funny thing to me is that many of the models for success being pointed at today are highly centralized. If we look at that through the lense I offered in the previous paragraph, that means that our prominant models are inherently unhealthy.</br>Van SWed, 22 Sep 2004 13:38:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/politics_in_the_city/#comment-1219512FYI, Chris (the previous poster) is the one who recommended the books to me.<br><br>Chris: I think the book is great in the way that it challenges alot of assumptions and shows how the metro area is a system. Once I've finished reading it, it'd be cool to discuss the book in more detail.Van SThu, 23 Sep 2004 07:35:04 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_13/#comment-5285110FYI, Chris (the previous poster) is the one who recommended the books to me.<br><br>Chris: I think the book is great in the way that it challenges alot of assumptions and shows how the metro area is a system. Once I've finished reading it, it'd be cool to discuss the book in more detail.Van SThu, 23 Sep 2004 07:35:04 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_13/#comment-5285116FYI, Chris (the previous poster) is the one who recommended the books to me.<br></br><br>Chris: I think the book is great in the way that it challenges alot of assumptions and shows how the metro area is a system. Once I've finished reading it, it'd be cool to discuss the book in more detail.</br>Van SThu, 23 Sep 2004 07:35:04 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/politics_in_the_city/#comment-1219514I'll have to check that out. I'd like to hear more about what is disappointing in the book.Van SFri, 24 Sep 2004 09:22:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_13/#comment-5285112I'll have to check that out. I'd like to hear more about what is disappointing in the book.Van SFri, 24 Sep 2004 09:22:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_13/#comment-5285118I'll have to check that out. I'd like to hear more about what is disappointing in the book.Van SFri, 24 Sep 2004 09:22:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/2nd_temple_judaism_and_christianity/#comment-1219518Yes, but how often did people in the first century use "Jews" in such a precise way? Wasn't the Northern Kingdom essentially desimated, leaving the Southern Kingdom of Judah the dominant tribe? Wouldn't it be fair to refer to the whole of Israel as belonging to Judaism? I see your argument, but I would still go along with the idea of Christianity being Judaism, since until Christianity, Judaism is the religion of YHWH worship.Van SFri, 24 Sep 2004 09:25:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_959/#comment-5285122Yes, but how often did people in the first century use "Jews" in such a precise way? Wasn't the Northern Kingdom essentially desimated, leaving the Southern Kingdom of Judah the dominant tribe? Wouldn't it be fair to refer to the whole of Israel as belonging to Judaism? I see your argument, but I would still go along with the idea of Christianity being Judaism, since until Christianity, Judaism is the religion of YHWH worship.Van SFri, 24 Sep 2004 09:25:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_959/#comment-5285131Yes, but how often did people in the first century use "Jews" in such a precise way? Wasn't the Northern Kingdom essentially desimated, leaving the Southern Kingdom of Judah the dominant tribe? Wouldn't it be fair to refer to the whole of Israel as belonging to Judaism? I see your argument, but I would still go along with the idea of Christianity being Judaism, since until Christianity, Judaism is the religion of YHWH worship.Van SFri, 24 Sep 2004 09:25:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/politics_in_the_city/#comment-1219516Thats a pretty big simplicifation of his argument.Van SSat, 25 Sep 2004 10:03:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_13/#comment-5285114Thats a pretty big simplicifation of his argument.Van SSat, 25 Sep 2004 10:03:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_13/#comment-5285120Thats a pretty big simplicifation of his argument.Van SSat, 25 Sep 2004 10:03:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/2nd_temple_judaism_and_christianity/#comment-1219520The North not only fell sooner, but much harder. Israel fell to the Assyrians in 721 BC; Judah fell to the Babylonians a little over a century later in 597 BC. It is my understanding that the people today known as 'Jews' are descended from the Kingdom of Judah and those of the Kingdom of Israel that fled to Judah...the Northern Kingdom was In 722 BC, the Assyrians, conquered the Northern Kingdom, destroyed its capital Samaria, and sent the Israelites into captivity. At that point much of the ten tribes that make up the North become "lost"...except those that fled south to safety in Judea, which at that time maintained its independence. Those that didn't flee to Judea were never brought back into the land. In this way, all of Israel became known as "Jews". Israel is the Jews and vice versa...at least in their thinking at this time. I think you are splitting semantic hairs that can't be split. Ethnicity and religion could perhaps be separated, but not in such a way that "Judaism" is ethnic and "Israel" is religious. I think a distinction can be made, but simply not in the way you are making it. I could be wrong, but I'd like to see something a bit more conclusive to be convinced.Van SSat, 25 Sep 2004 11:44:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_959/#comment-5285124The North not only fell sooner, but much harder. Israel fell to the Assyrians in 721 BC; Judah fell to the Babylonians a little over a century later in 597 BC. It is my understanding that the people today known as 'Jews' are descended from the Kingdom of Judah and those of the Kingdom of Israel that fled to Judah...the Northern Kingdom was In 722 BC, the Assyrians, conquered the Northern Kingdom, destroyed its capital Samaria, and sent the Israelites into captivity. At that point much of the ten tribes that make up the North become "lost"...except those that fled south to safety in Judea, which at that time maintained its independence. Those that didn't flee to Judea were never brought back into the land. In this way, all of Israel became known as "Jews". Israel is the Jews and vice versa...at least in their thinking at this time. I think you are splitting semantic hairs that can't be split. Ethnicity and religion could perhaps be separated, but not in such a way that "Judaism" is ethnic and "Israel" is religious. I think a distinction can be made, but simply not in the way you are making it. I could be wrong, but I'd like to see something a bit more conclusive to be convinced.Van SSat, 25 Sep 2004 11:44:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_959/#comment-5285133The North not only fell sooner, but much harder. Israel fell to the Assyrians in 721 BC; Judah fell to the Babylonians a little over a century later in 597 BC. It is my understanding that the people today known as 'Jews' are descended from the Kingdom of Judah and those of the Kingdom of Israel that fled to Judah...the Northern Kingdom was In 722 BC, the Assyrians, conquered the Northern Kingdom, destroyed its capital Samaria, and sent the Israelites into captivity. At that point much of the ten tribes that make up the North become "lost"...except those that fled south to safety in Judea, which at that time maintained its independence. Those that didn't flee to Judea were never brought back into the land. In this way, all of Israel became known as "Jews". Israel is the Jews and vice versa...at least in their thinking at this time. I think you are splitting semantic hairs that can't be split. Ethnicity and religion could perhaps be separated, but not in such a way that "Judaism" is ethnic and "Israel" is religious. I think a distinction can be made, but simply not in the way you are making it. I could be wrong, but I'd like to see something a bit more conclusive to be convinced.Van SSat, 25 Sep 2004 11:44:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/let_the_right_be_wrong_cb/#comment-1219537Let's just say that MOST country sucks.Van SSat, 25 Sep 2004 11:45:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_454/#comment-5285152Let's just say that MOST country sucks.Van SSat, 25 Sep 2004 11:45:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_454/#comment-5285158Let's just say that MOST country sucks.Van SSat, 25 Sep 2004 11:45:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/2nd_temple_judaism_and_christianity/#comment-1219522I hear what you are saying. I agree with you that Christians are not Jews. I will give you that part of the argument. But, I don't see how anything I said in my original post is imprecise. I referred only to Judaism, wich isn't the same thing as being a Jew. Also, I'd like to know if you think Romans 2:12-29 refers only to ethnic Jews.Van SSat, 25 Sep 2004 18:17:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_959/#comment-5285126I hear what you are saying. I agree with you that Christians are not Jews. I will give you that part of the argument. But, I don't see how anything I said in my original post is imprecise. I referred only to Judaism, wich isn't the same thing as being a Jew. Also, I'd like to know if you think Romans 2:12-29 refers only to ethnic Jews.Van SSat, 25 Sep 2004 18:17:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_959/#comment-5285135I hear what you are saying. I agree with you that Christians are not Jews. I will give you that part of the argument. But, I don't see how anything I said in my original post is imprecise. I referred only to Judaism, wich isn't the same thing as being a Jew. Also, I'd like to know if you think Romans 2:12-29 refers only to ethnic Jews.Van SSat, 25 Sep 2004 18:17:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/2nd_temple_judaism_and_christianity/#comment-1219524If you read my original post, I never say that Christianity is a form of Judaism, I DO say, however, that Christianity is a purer form of Judaism. My intention was to show how Christianity fulfills the deepest expectations of the Judaism of its time. It wasn't a splinter sect, but a fulfillment. That was the main point I was trying to get at. I think this argument is best continued in class, me amigo.Van SSun, 26 Sep 2004 23:37:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_959/#comment-5285128If you read my original post, I never say that Christianity is a form of Judaism, I DO say, however, that Christianity is a purer form of Judaism. My intention was to show how Christianity fulfills the deepest expectations of the Judaism of its time. It wasn't a splinter sect, but a fulfillment. That was the main point I was trying to get at. I think this argument is best continued in class, me amigo.Van SSun, 26 Sep 2004 23:37:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_959/#comment-5285137If you read my original post, I never say that Christianity is a form of Judaism, I DO say, however, that Christianity is a purer form of Judaism. My intention was to show how Christianity fulfills the deepest expectations of the Judaism of its time. It wasn't a splinter sect, but a fulfillment. That was the main point I was trying to get at. I think this argument is best continued in class, me amigo.Van SSun, 26 Sep 2004 23:37:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/sacred_relationships_not_sacred_space/#comment-1219531Gemma--thanks for the insight. However, I think that there are otherways to embrace specialness. Families don't need a shrine to feel a sense of community or specialness. Churches need to embrace their distinctiveness by being a family, not by where they meet.Van SMon, 27 Sep 2004 10:57:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_14/#comment-5285141Gemma--thanks for the insight. However, I think that there are otherways to embrace specialness. Families don't need a shrine to feel a sense of community or specialness. Churches need to embrace their distinctiveness by being a family, not by where they meet.Van SMon, 27 Sep 2004 10:57:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_14/#comment-5285146Gemma--thanks for the insight. However, I think that there are otherways to embrace specialness. Families don't need a shrine to feel a sense of community or specialness. Churches need to embrace their distinctiveness by being a family, not by where they meet.Van SMon, 27 Sep 2004 10:57:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/sacred_relationships_not_sacred_space/#comment-1219533Travis, can you show me some Scriptural evidence from the New Testament that would support the idea of "sacred space?" I don't have a problem with some spaces being special, but when they become sacred conveyers of the grace of God, it becomes problematic. I think part of Jesus' innovation is the removal of a structural temple with a corporate temple of people. There is a strong decentralization motif in the New Testament, and a moving away from Temple and Priesthood in the conventional sense and to a New Priesthood and a Temple made up of the People of God. This strongly implies a move away from sacred space as conceived by the ancient Hebrews.Van SMon, 27 Sep 2004 11:23:58 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_14/#comment-5285143Travis, can you show me some Scriptural evidence from the New Testament that would support the idea of "sacred space?" I don't have a problem with some spaces being special, but when they become sacred conveyers of the grace of God, it becomes problematic. I think part of Jesus' innovation is the removal of a structural temple with a corporate temple of people. There is a strong decentralization motif in the New Testament, and a moving away from Temple and Priesthood in the conventional sense and to a New Priesthood and a Temple made up of the People of God. This strongly implies a move away from sacred space as conceived by the ancient Hebrews.Van SMon, 27 Sep 2004 11:23:58 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_14/#comment-5285148Travis, can you show me some Scriptural evidence from the New Testament that would support the idea of "sacred space?" I don't have a problem with some spaces being special, but when they become sacred conveyers of the grace of God, it becomes problematic. I think part of Jesus' innovation is the removal of a structural temple with a corporate temple of people. There is a strong decentralization motif in the New Testament, and a moving away from Temple and Priesthood in the conventional sense and to a New Priesthood and a Temple made up of the People of God. This strongly implies a move away from sacred space as conceived by the ancient Hebrews.Van SMon, 27 Sep 2004 11:23:58 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/transforming_urbania/#comment-1219543Hey Gordon--thanks for the suggestion. I added you to my blogroll. Its good to have the urban folk representing.Van STue, 28 Sep 2004 09:48:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_20/#comment-5285170Hey Gordon--thanks for the suggestion. I added you to my blogroll. Its good to have the urban folk representing.Van STue, 28 Sep 2004 09:48:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_20/#comment-5285172Hey Gordon--thanks for the suggestion. I added you to my blogroll. Its good to have the urban folk representing.Van STue, 28 Sep 2004 09:48:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/church_without_presence/#comment-1219548blorge--you are most certainly correct. I agree with what you are saying, but it goes a bit beyond the scope of this particular post. Remind me to write about that sometime.<br><br>Trike--thanks for posting! I just found out that you have a blogsite yourself. I look forward to checking it out.<br><br>I believe there is still a sense of neighborhood for many in the city (and in smaller towns too for that matter). This is especially true among ethnic minorities. There are a number of churches in our area that were planted to reach out to a certain area, but the members commute in. This is most certainly not incarnational.<br><br>Some churches aren't able to be geography driven in the same way that Missio Dei can potentially be geography driven. But some sort of incarnational approach is still possible. We can still get to know our neighbors, be involved with our school district, be "strategic consumerists" at the local Caribou Coffee, etc. The main point of my post wasn't to explain why churches ought to be incarnational, but to ask that people stop throwing around that word. If a church doesn't have a real precense in an area, I don't see it as an incarnational church. The people who go there might be incarnational in their own right--by sharing their faith with friends and co-workers, but this isn't the same thing.Van SWed, 29 Sep 2004 01:01:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_05/#comment-5285181blorge--you are most certainly correct. I agree with what you are saying, but it goes a bit beyond the scope of this particular post. Remind me to write about that sometime.<br><br>Trike--thanks for posting! I just found out that you have a blogsite yourself. I look forward to checking it out.<br><br>I believe there is still a sense of neighborhood for many in the city (and in smaller towns too for that matter). This is especially true among ethnic minorities. There are a number of churches in our area that were planted to reach out to a certain area, but the members commute in. This is most certainly not incarnational.<br><br>Some churches aren't able to be geography driven in the same way that Missio Dei can potentially be geography driven. But some sort of incarnational approach is still possible. We can still get to know our neighbors, be involved with our school district, be "strategic consumerists" at the local Caribou Coffee, etc. The main point of my post wasn't to explain why churches ought to be incarnational, but to ask that people stop throwing around that word. If a church doesn't have a real precense in an area, I don't see it as an incarnational church. The people who go there might be incarnational in their own right--by sharing their faith with friends and co-workers, but this isn't the same thing.Van SWed, 29 Sep 2004 01:01:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_05/#comment-5285190blorge--you are most certainly correct. I agree with what you are saying, but it goes a bit beyond the scope of this particular post. Remind me to write about that sometime.<br></br><br>Trike--thanks for posting! I just found out that you have a blogsite yourself. I look forward to checking it out.</br><br></br><br>I believe there is still a sense of neighborhood for many in the city (and in smaller towns too for that matter). This is especially true among ethnic minorities. There are a number of churches in our area that were planted to reach out to a certain area, but the members commute in. This is most certainly not incarnational.</br><br></br><br>Some churches aren't able to be geography driven in the same way that Missio Dei can potentially be geography driven. But some sort of incarnational approach is still possible. We can still get to know our neighbors, be involved with our school district, be "strategic consumerists" at the local Caribou Coffee, etc. The main point of my post wasn't to explain why churches ought to be incarnational, but to ask that people stop throwing around that word. If a church doesn't have a real precense in an area, I don't see it as an incarnational church. The people who go there might be incarnational in their own right--by sharing their faith with friends and co-workers, but this isn't the same thing.</br>Van SWed, 29 Sep 2004 01:01:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_goal_of_mission/#comment-1219554Thanks for visiting! Being a healing community is incredibly difficult. I think we have to abandon some of the typical external indicators of success if we are going to be committed to bringing health to the unhealthy.Van SWed, 29 Sep 2004 16:02:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_00/#comment-5285197Thanks for visiting! Being a healing community is incredibly difficult. I think we have to abandon some of the typical external indicators of success if we are going to be committed to bringing health to the unhealthy.Van SWed, 29 Sep 2004 16:02:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_00/#comment-5285206Thanks for visiting! Being a healing community is incredibly difficult. I think we have to abandon some of the typical external indicators of success if we are going to be committed to bringing health to the unhealthy.Van SWed, 29 Sep 2004 16:02:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/church_without_presence/#comment-1219552Good comments, Gordon. It is simply much easier to focus on affinity groups rather than dealing with the messiness of people from different cultures and economic status within one community. But if we take the New Testament seriously--which tells us that the division between Jews and Gentiles has been healed on the Cross--then we ought to seriously consider the way in which our communities reinforce division and worldly patterns, rather than being a sign to the world of the inbreaking Kingdom. In the Kingdom, such divisions aren't important. In the Kingdom, people who were enemies can become brothers. In the Kingdom, we can cling to Jesus Christ to teach us to love one another. In the Kingdom, the marginalized are princes of the earth.Van SWed, 29 Sep 2004 16:10:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_05/#comment-5285185Good comments, Gordon. It is simply much easier to focus on affinity groups rather than dealing with the messiness of people from different cultures and economic status within one community. But if we take the New Testament seriously--which tells us that the division between Jews and Gentiles has been healed on the Cross--then we ought to seriously consider the way in which our communities reinforce division and worldly patterns, rather than being a sign to the world of the inbreaking Kingdom. In the Kingdom, such divisions aren't important. In the Kingdom, people who were enemies can become brothers. In the Kingdom, we can cling to Jesus Christ to teach us to love one another. In the Kingdom, the marginalized are princes of the earth.Van SWed, 29 Sep 2004 16:10:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_05/#comment-5285195Good comments, Gordon. It is simply much easier to focus on affinity groups rather than dealing with the messiness of people from different cultures and economic status within one community. But if we take the New Testament seriously--which tells us that the division between Jews and Gentiles has been healed on the Cross--then we ought to seriously consider the way in which our communities reinforce division and worldly patterns, rather than being a sign to the world of the inbreaking Kingdom. In the Kingdom, such divisions aren't important. In the Kingdom, people who were enemies can become brothers. In the Kingdom, we can cling to Jesus Christ to teach us to love one another. In the Kingdom, the marginalized are princes of the earth.Van SWed, 29 Sep 2004 16:10:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/lappy_no_more/#comment-1219541Thanks Lori. I am bummed, but I'll be ok.Van SWed, 29 Sep 2004 16:11:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_59/#comment-5285162Thanks Lori. I am bummed, but I'll be ok.Van SWed, 29 Sep 2004 16:11:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_59/#comment-5285164Thanks Lori. I am bummed, but I'll be ok.Van SWed, 29 Sep 2004 16:11:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_goal_of_mission/#comment-1219556Gordon--I just bought that book...but I haven't read it yet.Van SFri, 01 Oct 2004 23:41:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_00/#comment-5285199Gordon--I just bought that book...but I haven't read it yet.Van SFri, 01 Oct 2004 23:41:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_00/#comment-5285208Gordon--I just bought that book...but I haven't read it yet.Van SFri, 01 Oct 2004 23:41:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/whore_no_more/#comment-1219573I don't have a problem with advertising...just most of conventional advertising. I'd rather be known as an "advertising flirt" than a consumerist call-girl... :)Van SSat, 02 Oct 2004 18:38:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_772/#comment-5285234I don't have a problem with advertising...just most of conventional advertising. I'd rather be known as an "advertising flirt" than a consumerist call-girl... :)Van SSat, 02 Oct 2004 18:38:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_772/#comment-5285238I don't have a problem with advertising...just most of conventional advertising. I'd rather be known as an "advertising flirt" than a consumerist call-girl... :)Van SSat, 02 Oct 2004 18:38:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/spirituality_is_not_a_good_thing8230/#comment-1219569Chris, that entirely depends upon how one defines "religious"...unfortuntately, I am using it as defined in the chapter I reference. Essentially, he posits that "religion" was used in a specific way in the past, but around the time of the Reformation, it began to be used in an increasingly specific way--as a way of differentiating different "religions." As its useage became more common, "religion" began to be known as a specific set of PERSONAL beliefs and was set in contrast to other spheres of life. So, then, the way Cavanaugh uses the word "religion" is in the modern enlightment sense of a particular set of rituals that one uses in the private sphere of personal religion--privatized religion. It is this idea he rejects. And it is this idea that provides the context for my post.Van SSat, 02 Oct 2004 18:45:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_32/#comment-5285225Chris, that entirely depends upon how one defines "religious"...unfortuntately, I am using it as defined in the chapter I reference. Essentially, he posits that "religion" was used in a specific way in the past, but around the time of the Reformation, it began to be used in an increasingly specific way--as a way of differentiating different "religions." As its useage became more common, "religion" began to be known as a specific set of PERSONAL beliefs and was set in contrast to other spheres of life. So, then, the way Cavanaugh uses the word "religion" is in the modern enlightment sense of a particular set of rituals that one uses in the private sphere of personal religion--privatized religion. It is this idea he rejects. And it is this idea that provides the context for my post.Van SSat, 02 Oct 2004 18:45:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_32/#comment-5285230Chris, that entirely depends upon how one defines "religious"...unfortuntately, I am using it as defined in the chapter I reference. Essentially, he posits that "religion" was used in a specific way in the past, but around the time of the Reformation, it began to be used in an increasingly specific way--as a way of differentiating different "religions." As its useage became more common, "religion" began to be known as a specific set of PERSONAL beliefs and was set in contrast to other spheres of life. So, then, the way Cavanaugh uses the word "religion" is in the modern enlightment sense of a particular set of rituals that one uses in the private sphere of personal religion--privatized religion. It is this idea he rejects. And it is this idea that provides the context for my post.Van SSat, 02 Oct 2004 18:45:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/spirituality_is_not_a_good_thing8230/#comment-1219571It's not the way I'm using the word, its the way he uses the word. Cavanaugh takes pain to define the way he's using the word earlier in the chapter. I think you're reading a broader definition of the word than he is using, so I don't think you disagree with him at all. He lets the reader know that there is a broader use of the word that is good--he's merely arguing against one common way of understanding "religion." Unfortunately, I quoted the chapter without providing this background.<br><br>The word has become used in a very specific way, and it is that useage that he is combatting. Your are right that religion is a good thing, if properly defined. But he isn't talking about the broader sense of the word.Van SSun, 03 Oct 2004 01:25:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_32/#comment-5285227It's not the way I'm using the word, its the way he uses the word. Cavanaugh takes pain to define the way he's using the word earlier in the chapter. I think you're reading a broader definition of the word than he is using, so I don't think you disagree with him at all. He lets the reader know that there is a broader use of the word that is good--he's merely arguing against one common way of understanding "religion." Unfortunately, I quoted the chapter without providing this background.<br><br>The word has become used in a very specific way, and it is that useage that he is combatting. Your are right that religion is a good thing, if properly defined. But he isn't talking about the broader sense of the word.Van SSun, 03 Oct 2004 01:25:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_32/#comment-5285232It's not the way I'm using the word, its the way he uses the word. Cavanaugh takes pain to define the way he's using the word earlier in the chapter. I think you're reading a broader definition of the word than he is using, so I don't think you disagree with him at all. He lets the reader know that there is a broader use of the word that is good--he's merely arguing against one common way of understanding "religion." Unfortunately, I quoted the chapter without providing this background.<br></br><br>The word has become used in a very specific way, and it is that useage that he is combatting. Your are right that religion is a good thing, if properly defined. But he isn't talking about the broader sense of the word.</br>Van SSun, 03 Oct 2004 01:25:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/whore_no_more/#comment-1219575Jesse--it doesn't matter. Google automatically sends me ads from people selling church resources. If I blocked 10, they would be replaced with 10 more just like them. If I could have ads from specific websites that I liked, that'd be cool. Or if I could just have public service ads, that'd be fine too.Van SMon, 04 Oct 2004 15:00:27 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_772/#comment-5285236Jesse--it doesn't matter. Google automatically sends me ads from people selling church resources. If I blocked 10, they would be replaced with 10 more just like them. If I could have ads from specific websites that I liked, that'd be cool. Or if I could just have public service ads, that'd be fine too.Van SMon, 04 Oct 2004 15:00:27 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_772/#comment-5285240Jesse--it doesn't matter. Google automatically sends me ads from people selling church resources. If I blocked 10, they would be replaced with 10 more just like them. If I could have ads from specific websites that I liked, that'd be cool. Or if I could just have public service ads, that'd be fine too.Van SMon, 04 Oct 2004 15:00:27 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/learning_to_be_missional/#comment-1219578Sounds really cool. You guys have Robert Banks too (whose book I mentioned above). It would be great if seminaries in the US were more in tune with missional thinking. My seminary (Bethel) is in bed with Willow Creek. The seeker sensitive model is pervasive at Bethel.Van SMon, 04 Oct 2004 17:57:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_10/#comment-5285246Sounds really cool. You guys have Robert Banks too (whose book I mentioned above). It would be great if seminaries in the US were more in tune with missional thinking. My seminary (Bethel) is in bed with Willow Creek. The seeker sensitive model is pervasive at Bethel.Van SMon, 04 Oct 2004 17:57:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_10/#comment-5285250Sounds really cool. You guys have Robert Banks too (whose book I mentioned above). It would be great if seminaries in the US were more in tune with missional thinking. My seminary (Bethel) is in bed with Willow Creek. The seeker sensitive model is pervasive at Bethel.Van SMon, 04 Oct 2004 17:57:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/learning_to_be_missional/#comment-1219580I agree, Gordon. I think that could be counter-balanced a bit by local networks of churches that know one another and share a common missiology. The "freedom" that has resulted from the new climate that encourages new ways of doing church has a dark side--people are developing a consumer-mindset where they feel that they can make a church of their very own. The solution in my mind is for leaders to dig deeper into Tradition and Scripture, so that they can stay anchored in the past.<br><br>Networking with local churches is also helpful, because it keeps things from being isolated--as well as adding a tension that keeps the church open to other voices. I know alot of pastors that send people to national conferences, but very few churches in my neck of the woods, especially "newfangled" churches, work with each other much. If we are going to start looking at our metro area (Minneapolis/St. Paul) as a mission-field, we need to network and share resources. Ultimately, this could serve to reduce the consumerist church "sampling" that goes on, since open-handed churches that work with others, and that are theologically intentional tend to be more incarnational and less attractional (to use the words of Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch).Van STue, 05 Oct 2004 16:08:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_10/#comment-5285248I agree, Gordon. I think that could be counter-balanced a bit by local networks of churches that know one another and share a common missiology. The "freedom" that has resulted from the new climate that encourages new ways of doing church has a dark side--people are developing a consumer-mindset where they feel that they can make a church of their very own. The solution in my mind is for leaders to dig deeper into Tradition and Scripture, so that they can stay anchored in the past.<br><br>Networking with local churches is also helpful, because it keeps things from being isolated--as well as adding a tension that keeps the church open to other voices. I know alot of pastors that send people to national conferences, but very few churches in my neck of the woods, especially "newfangled" churches, work with each other much. If we are going to start looking at our metro area (Minneapolis/St. Paul) as a mission-field, we need to network and share resources. Ultimately, this could serve to reduce the consumerist church "sampling" that goes on, since open-handed churches that work with others, and that are theologically intentional tend to be more incarnational and less attractional (to use the words of Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch).Van STue, 05 Oct 2004 16:08:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_10/#comment-5285252I agree, Gordon. I think that could be counter-balanced a bit by local networks of churches that know one another and share a common missiology. The "freedom" that has resulted from the new climate that encourages new ways of doing church has a dark side--people are developing a consumer-mindset where they feel that they can make a church of their very own. The solution in my mind is for leaders to dig deeper into Tradition and Scripture, so that they can stay anchored in the past.<br></br><br>Networking with local churches is also helpful, because it keeps things from being isolated--as well as adding a tension that keeps the church open to other voices. I know alot of pastors that send people to national conferences, but very few churches in my neck of the woods, especially "newfangled" churches, work with each other much. If we are going to start looking at our metro area (Minneapolis/St. Paul) as a mission-field, we need to network and share resources. Ultimately, this could serve to reduce the consumerist church "sampling" that goes on, since open-handed churches that work with others, and that are theologically intentional tend to be more incarnational and less attractional (to use the words of Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch).</br>Van STue, 05 Oct 2004 16:08:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/attractional_is_the_new_ugly/#comment-1219583Nice program, Gordon!Van SWed, 06 Oct 2004 10:00:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_79/#comment-5285255Nice program, Gordon!Van SWed, 06 Oct 2004 10:00:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_79/#comment-5285260Nice program, Gordon!Van SWed, 06 Oct 2004 10:00:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/attractional_is_the_new_ugly/#comment-1219584I tend to agree, Alexander. It seems that the missional movement has become immeshed with the emergent movement in some people's minds. The two are not the same thing. Many established churches are missional...and they have a large part in the future of the church.Van SWed, 06 Oct 2004 16:07:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_79/#comment-5285256I tend to agree, Alexander. It seems that the missional movement has become immeshed with the emergent movement in some people's minds. The two are not the same thing. Many established churches are missional...and they have a large part in the future of the church.Van SWed, 06 Oct 2004 16:07:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_79/#comment-5285262I tend to agree, Alexander. It seems that the missional movement has become immeshed with the emergent movement in some people's minds. The two are not the same thing. Many established churches are missional...and they have a large part in the future of the church.Van SWed, 06 Oct 2004 16:07:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_goal_of_mission/#comment-1219559Thanks Sean!Van SSun, 10 Oct 2004 10:18:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_00/#comment-5285202Thanks Sean!Van SSun, 10 Oct 2004 10:18:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_00/#comment-5285211Thanks Sean!Van SSun, 10 Oct 2004 10:18:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_call_to_renewal_that8217s_our_job/#comment-1219595This is an issue I've been struggling with for a while now. I still don't feel like I've got a solid stance on the issue of how much we should utilize the government for Kingdom aims. However, I do think that the church is much more negligent in its failure to deal with issues like poverty directly than it is to address them legislatively. When Christians emphasize our civic duties, it makes our lack of direct involvement all the more painful.Van STue, 12 Oct 2004 10:21:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_83/#comment-5285285This is an issue I've been struggling with for a while now. I still don't feel like I've got a solid stance on the issue of how much we should utilize the government for Kingdom aims. However, I do think that the church is much more negligent in its failure to deal with issues like poverty directly than it is to address them legislatively. When Christians emphasize our civic duties, it makes our lack of direct involvement all the more painful.Van STue, 12 Oct 2004 10:21:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_83/#comment-5285291This is an issue I've been struggling with for a while now. I still don't feel like I've got a solid stance on the issue of how much we should utilize the government for Kingdom aims. However, I do think that the church is much more negligent in its failure to deal with issues like poverty directly than it is to address them legislatively. When Christians emphasize our civic duties, it makes our lack of direct involvement all the more painful.Van STue, 12 Oct 2004 10:21:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/submit_or_subvert/#comment-1219588So, Chris, is it an issue of them having non-catholic workers or an issue of them receiving state funds?Van SWed, 13 Oct 2004 00:00:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_21/#comment-5285268So, Chris, is it an issue of them having non-catholic workers or an issue of them receiving state funds?Van SWed, 13 Oct 2004 00:00:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_21/#comment-5285274So, Chris, is it an issue of them having non-catholic workers or an issue of them receiving state funds?Van SWed, 13 Oct 2004 00:00:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/church_is_like_the_lord_of_the_rings_extended_edition_dvd/#comment-1219602Yay! A running, screaming, bonfire!Van SThu, 14 Oct 2004 14:19:51 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9045/#comment-5285303Yay! A running, screaming, bonfire!Van SThu, 14 Oct 2004 14:19:51 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9045/#comment-5285314Yay! A running, screaming, bonfire!Van SThu, 14 Oct 2004 14:19:51 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/church_is_like_the_lord_of_the_rings_extended_edition_dvd/#comment-1219605<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=anathema" rel="nofollow">this one</a> out!Van SFri, 15 Oct 2004 10:14:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9045/#comment-5285309Chris, check <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=anathema" rel="nofollow">this one</a> out!Van SFri, 15 Oct 2004 10:14:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9045/#comment-5285317<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=anathema" rel="nofollow">this one</a> out!Van SFri, 15 Oct 2004 10:14:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/launch/#comment-1219592Stevo,<br><br>The strategizing only has a little to do with funds. They all will help in our goal of "decentralizing." The only one that is affected by inflow is me going bivocational. We would need to double our giving for me to stay full time currently, and we would need to triple it in order for me to stay full time in April--when our outside support steps down again. In addition to that, we have very little money for outreach as it is and I don't want to sacrifice outreach money so that I can stay full time. Being bivocational is something I've been prepared to do for a long time. I think it has some advantages and I believe it is a growing and healthy phenomena to have a growing number of bivocational leaders.Van SFri, 15 Oct 2004 10:40:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_498/#comment-5285278Stevo,<br><br>The strategizing only has a little to do with funds. They all will help in our goal of "decentralizing." The only one that is affected by inflow is me going bivocational. We would need to double our giving for me to stay full time currently, and we would need to triple it in order for me to stay full time in April--when our outside support steps down again. In addition to that, we have very little money for outreach as it is and I don't want to sacrifice outreach money so that I can stay full time. Being bivocational is something I've been prepared to do for a long time. I think it has some advantages and I believe it is a growing and healthy phenomena to have a growing number of bivocational leaders.Van SFri, 15 Oct 2004 10:40:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_498/#comment-5285281Stevo,<br></br><br>The strategizing only has a little to do with funds. They all will help in our goal of "decentralizing." The only one that is affected by inflow is me going bivocational. We would need to double our giving for me to stay full time currently, and we would need to triple it in order for me to stay full time in April--when our outside support steps down again. In addition to that, we have very little money for outreach as it is and I don't want to sacrifice outreach money so that I can stay full time. Being bivocational is something I've been prepared to do for a long time. I think it has some advantages and I believe it is a growing and healthy phenomena to have a growing number of bivocational leaders.</br>Van SFri, 15 Oct 2004 10:40:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_call_to_renewal_that8217s_our_job/#comment-1219598Jeff, I think what you are saying is a bit reductionary. In some nations, the Catholic church is the one who ministers to both individuals and brings systemic support. Our nation is unique in that we have vast governmental wealth, but I would still say the church could have a much more sweeping role--in fact it did in this nation up until the early 1900s when the welfare state was created.Van SFri, 15 Oct 2004 10:44:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_83/#comment-5285288Jeff, I think what you are saying is a bit reductionary. In some nations, the Catholic church is the one who ministers to both individuals and brings systemic support. Our nation is unique in that we have vast governmental wealth, but I would still say the church could have a much more sweeping role--in fact it did in this nation up until the early 1900s when the welfare state was created.Van SFri, 15 Oct 2004 10:44:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_83/#comment-5285294Jeff, I think what you are saying is a bit reductionary. In some nations, the Catholic church is the one who ministers to both individuals and brings systemic support. Our nation is unique in that we have vast governmental wealth, but I would still say the church could have a much more sweeping role--in fact it did in this nation up until the early 1900s when the welfare state was created.Van SFri, 15 Oct 2004 10:44:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/telling_the_story_in_the_local_church/#comment-1219610Good point, Chris. It is making such a distinction that I think affirms a clergy laity distiction.<br><br>Blorge, I agree--everyone should have a role in grappling with the issues. Indeed, this is something that should be tackled in an intimate setting.Van SFri, 15 Oct 2004 15:33:27 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_31/#comment-5285321Good point, Chris. It is making such a distinction that I think affirms a clergy laity distiction.<br><br>Blorge, I agree--everyone should have a role in grappling with the issues. Indeed, this is something that should be tackled in an intimate setting.Van SFri, 15 Oct 2004 15:33:27 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_31/#comment-5285326Good point, Chris. It is making such a distinction that I think affirms a clergy laity distiction.<br></br><br>Blorge, I agree--everyone should have a role in grappling with the issues. Indeed, this is something that should be tackled in an intimate setting.</br>Van SFri, 15 Oct 2004 15:33:27 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/submit_or_subvert/#comment-1219589I think they should subvert...but be fully prepared to stop receiving federal funding. The fact that they get Federal funds means that they have a conflict of interest. I don't believe they should resolved that conflict of interest by submitting. They should refuse and be willing to resolve that conflict of interest by cutting financial ties. The issue of non-Catholic employees is moot in my mind. I don't think that a church non-profit organization should pay for benefits it doesn't believe in, but it has to make such thing clear before hiring.Van STue, 19 Oct 2004 16:01:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_21/#comment-5285269I think they should subvert...but be fully prepared to stop receiving federal funding. The fact that they get Federal funds means that they have a conflict of interest. I don't believe they should resolved that conflict of interest by submitting. They should refuse and be willing to resolve that conflict of interest by cutting financial ties. The issue of non-Catholic employees is moot in my mind. I don't think that a church non-profit organization should pay for benefits it doesn't believe in, but it has to make such thing clear before hiring.Van STue, 19 Oct 2004 16:01:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_21/#comment-5285275I think they should subvert...but be fully prepared to stop receiving federal funding. The fact that they get Federal funds means that they have a conflict of interest. I don't believe they should resolved that conflict of interest by submitting. They should refuse and be willing to resolve that conflict of interest by cutting financial ties. The issue of non-Catholic employees is moot in my mind. I don't think that a church non-profit organization should pay for benefits it doesn't believe in, but it has to make such thing clear before hiring.Van STue, 19 Oct 2004 16:01:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/telling_the_story_in_the_local_church/#comment-1219612I agree with what you are saying, Jeff. You clarified something that I was wondering about--as long as these things are done in community, then we're on the same page. The problem I have with some churches is that they don't create time and space for people to grapple. They preach and then send them on their way.Van SWed, 20 Oct 2004 12:33:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_31/#comment-5285323I agree with what you are saying, Jeff. You clarified something that I was wondering about--as long as these things are done in community, then we're on the same page. The problem I have with some churches is that they don't create time and space for people to grapple. They preach and then send them on their way.Van SWed, 20 Oct 2004 12:33:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_31/#comment-5285328I agree with what you are saying, Jeff. You clarified something that I was wondering about--as long as these things are done in community, then we're on the same page. The problem I have with some churches is that they don't create time and space for people to grapple. They preach and then send them on their way.Van SWed, 20 Oct 2004 12:33:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/full_moon/#comment-1219622I appreciate what you are saying. But they came specifically to recruit. And they came to house group meetings and tried to dominate the conversations. They are firmly entrenched in the moonie organization. These aren't merely naive people who are a bit deceived. They are involved as deeply as you can get. In fact there is a picture on their website of them with Mr. Moon.<br><br>This was a situation where they were intentionally coming to recruit people into their organization, not merely trying to have dialogue. In such a situation, it seemed unwise to have them attending a house gathering. I am very much open to people with different beliefs coming to our gatherings. I would enjoy that very much. But it is another thing entirely when missionaries from a cult organization are specifically trying to recruit.Van SMon, 25 Oct 2004 01:10:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_033/#comment-5285358I appreciate what you are saying. But they came specifically to recruit. And they came to house group meetings and tried to dominate the conversations. They are firmly entrenched in the moonie organization. These aren't merely naive people who are a bit deceived. They are involved as deeply as you can get. In fact there is a picture on their website of them with Mr. Moon.<br><br>This was a situation where they were intentionally coming to recruit people into their organization, not merely trying to have dialogue. In such a situation, it seemed unwise to have them attending a house gathering. I am very much open to people with different beliefs coming to our gatherings. I would enjoy that very much. But it is another thing entirely when missionaries from a cult organization are specifically trying to recruit.Van SMon, 25 Oct 2004 01:10:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_033/#comment-5285366I appreciate what you are saying. But they came specifically to recruit. And they came to house group meetings and tried to dominate the conversations. They are firmly entrenched in the moonie organization. These aren't merely naive people who are a bit deceived. They are involved as deeply as you can get. In fact there is a picture on their website of them with Mr. Moon.<br></br><br>This was a situation where they were intentionally coming to recruit people into their organization, not merely trying to have dialogue. In such a situation, it seemed unwise to have them attending a house gathering. I am very much open to people with different beliefs coming to our gatherings. I would enjoy that very much. But it is another thing entirely when missionaries from a cult organization are specifically trying to recruit.</br>Van SMon, 25 Oct 2004 01:10:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/deployment/#comment-1219633Good challenge, Chris. I should make it more clear that I am referring specifically to churches that are birthed out of missional, "parachurch" efforts. Groups like the ones you mentioned aren't equipped to be "church" because, as you point out, lack healthy Christian community.<br><br>There are few examples, since few parachurch groups ever intentionally transition into being a church. The Hard Core Bible Study in Minneapolis, various oversees mission efforts, and church plants in the past that have been birthed out of Navigator Groups and the like. I'm not saying that parachurches are doing church better, but I am saying that there is something to groups that start with mission and then intentionally build church around it, rather than groups that start church and hope to accomplish mission from it.Van SWed, 27 Oct 2004 14:23:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_55/#comment-5285377Good challenge, Chris. I should make it more clear that I am referring specifically to churches that are birthed out of missional, "parachurch" efforts. Groups like the ones you mentioned aren't equipped to be "church" because, as you point out, lack healthy Christian community.<br><br>There are few examples, since few parachurch groups ever intentionally transition into being a church. The Hard Core Bible Study in Minneapolis, various oversees mission efforts, and church plants in the past that have been birthed out of Navigator Groups and the like. I'm not saying that parachurches are doing church better, but I am saying that there is something to groups that start with mission and then intentionally build church around it, rather than groups that start church and hope to accomplish mission from it.Van SWed, 27 Oct 2004 14:23:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_55/#comment-5285380Good challenge, Chris. I should make it more clear that I am referring specifically to churches that are birthed out of missional, "parachurch" efforts. Groups like the ones you mentioned aren't equipped to be "church" because, as you point out, lack healthy Christian community.<br></br><br>There are few examples, since few parachurch groups ever intentionally transition into being a church. The Hard Core Bible Study in Minneapolis, various oversees mission efforts, and church plants in the past that have been birthed out of Navigator Groups and the like. I'm not saying that parachurches are doing church better, but I am saying that there is something to groups that start with mission and then intentionally build church around it, rather than groups that start church and hope to accomplish mission from it.</br>Van SWed, 27 Oct 2004 14:23:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/it8217s_not_a_bothand_often_it_is_an_eitheror/#comment-1219635It is hard to resist the tantalizing fruit of success. Very few are applauded and adored for doing ministry as Jesus did. I hate the fact that I am pulled towards the applause that comes from doing things "successfully". I need to read the Gospels and surround myself with faithful people, otherwise I might succumb.Van SThu, 28 Oct 2004 14:12:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_249/#comment-5285384It is hard to resist the tantalizing fruit of success. Very few are applauded and adored for doing ministry as Jesus did. I hate the fact that I am pulled towards the applause that comes from doing things "successfully". I need to read the Gospels and surround myself with faithful people, otherwise I might succumb.Van SThu, 28 Oct 2004 14:12:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_249/#comment-5285387It is hard to resist the tantalizing fruit of success. Very few are applauded and adored for doing ministry as Jesus did. I hate the fact that I am pulled towards the applause that comes from doing things "successfully". I need to read the Gospels and surround myself with faithful people, otherwise I might succumb.Van SThu, 28 Oct 2004 14:12:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_69/#comment-5285400Sounds good. But let me ask you to go deeper. What do you say to that person who is jaded about the high-falutin' nature of the Doctrine of the Trinity...who, upon hearing your reason for holding to the Doctrine is convinced that the issue is only for theological types?Van SMon, 01 Nov 2004 15:34:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/being_trinitarian/#comment-1219638Sounds good. But let me ask you to go deeper. What do you say to that person who is jaded about the high-falutin' nature of the Doctrine of the Trinity...who, upon hearing your reason for holding to the Doctrine is convinced that the issue is only for theological types?Van SMon, 01 Nov 2004 16:34:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_69/#comment-5285397Sounds good. But let me ask you to go deeper. What do you say to that person who is jaded about the high-falutin' nature of the Doctrine of the Trinity...who, upon hearing your reason for holding to the Doctrine is convinced that the issue is only for theological types?Van SMon, 01 Nov 2004 16:34:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_997/#comment-5285409Not only do pastors rob ministry, but the congregation leaves their valuables on the front lawn for easy pickings.Van STue, 02 Nov 2004 15:54:09 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/pastor_worship/#comment-1219644Not only do pastors rob ministry, but the congregation leaves their valuables on the front lawn for easy pickings.Van STue, 02 Nov 2004 16:54:09 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_997/#comment-5285407Not only do pastors rob ministry, but the congregation leaves their valuables on the front lawn for easy pickings.Van STue, 02 Nov 2004 16:54:09 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_969/#comment-5285440<a href="http://missionthink.typepad.com/missionthink/2004/09/sacred_relation.html" rel="nofollow">sacred relationships, not sacred space.</a>Van SThu, 04 Nov 2004 15:00:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_sense_of_8220place8221/#comment-1219649<a href="http://missionthink.typepad.com/missionthink/2004/09/sacred_relation.html" rel="nofollow">sacred relationships, not sacred space.</a>Van SThu, 04 Nov 2004 16:00:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_969/#comment-5285430I don't think any building that people meet in is a church. Churches are made of people, not stones. I never want to be in a building that exists purely for Sunday gathering or that is designed to give the impression that the building is a temple or sacred. I believe in <a href="http://missionthink.typepad.com/missionthink/2004/09/sacred_relation.html" rel="nofollow">sacred relationships, not sacred space.</a>Van SThu, 04 Nov 2004 16:00:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_969/#comment-5285442Ascribing value is different than calling a think sacred. For something to be a sacrament or sacred means, in my mind, that it mediates grace. I am not against meeting in a building, but by definition, a temple is a place in which the Divine's precence is more real than someplace else. Part of what Jesus means is that WE are the temple. A building is not. So while we can use places and objects for special purposes and value them, we must be careful that we don't call them sacred. This isn't an over-simplification or an exercise in spiritualizing. It is based in the theological conviction that a thing isn't a container for grace or God's presence. By giving all believers the Holy Spirit, Jesus made us his sacred church. A building can never be a sacred church. So sacred relationships NOT sacred space... ;)Van SThu, 04 Nov 2004 18:46:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_sense_of_8220place8221/#comment-1219651Ascribing value is different than calling a think sacred. For something to be a sacrament or sacred means, in my mind, that it mediates grace. I am not against meeting in a building, but by definition, a temple is a place in which the Divine's precence is more real than someplace else. Part of what Jesus means is that WE are the temple. A building is not. So while we can use places and objects for special purposes and value them, we must be careful that we don't call them sacred. This isn't an over-simplification or an exercise in spiritualizing. It is based in the theological conviction that a thing isn't a container for grace or God's presence. By giving all believers the Holy Spirit, Jesus made us his sacred church. A building can never be a sacred church. So sacred relationships NOT sacred space... ;)Van SThu, 04 Nov 2004 19:46:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_969/#comment-5285432Ascribing value is different than calling a think sacred. For something to be a sacrament or sacred means, in my mind, that it mediates grace. I am not against meeting in a building, but by definition, a temple is a place in which the Divine's precence is more real than someplace else. Part of what Jesus means is that WE are the temple. A building is not. So while we can use places and objects for special purposes and value them, we must be careful that we don't call them sacred. This isn't an over-simplification or an exercise in spiritualizing. It is based in the theological conviction that a thing isn't a container for grace or God's presence. By giving all believers the Holy Spirit, Jesus made us his sacred church. A building can never be a sacred church. So sacred relationships NOT sacred space... ;)Van SThu, 04 Nov 2004 19:46:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_969/#comment-5285446Sure, sure. Both Andy and Gregg make fine points. I don't want to say that buildings aren't special. In a way, they can have a sort of sacredness-by-proxy. The house I grew up in has great meaning for me because my family lived there. If someone wants to give special honor to a place, I'm not going to bite their head off, but calling a building sacred in the traditional sense is something I don't see any justification for. I don't hear anyone making a strong sacramental case for sacred space, so I suspect we're quibbling over finer points.<br></br><br>Andy, using Old Testament examples doesn't exactly work, since my basis for rejecting the notion of sacred space is that we have received the promised Holy Spirit.</br><br></br><br>Gregg, sure, the earth is the Lord's. I don't have a problem with the idea that EVERYTHING is, in a way, sacred. The idea I have problems with is that a sanctuary is, in its own right, a sacred conveyor of divine grace. Nor do I believe that the cup or the bread is, in its own right, a sacred conveyor of divine grace. It is the relationships that come with those things that are sacred, and if there is any sense of these things being sacred, it is derived.</br>Van SFri, 05 Nov 2004 09:12:32 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_sense_of_8220place8221/#comment-1219654Sure, sure. Both Andy and Gregg make fine points. I don't want to say that buildings aren't special. In a way, they can have a sort of sacredness-by-proxy. The house I grew up in has great meaning for me because my family lived there. If someone wants to give special honor to a place, I'm not going to bite their head off, but calling a building sacred in the traditional sense is something I don't see any justification for. I don't hear anyone making a strong sacramental case for sacred space, so I suspect we're quibbling over finer points.<br><br>Andy, using Old Testament examples doesn't exactly work, since my basis for rejecting the notion of sacred space is that we have received the promised Holy Spirit.<br><br>Gregg, sure, the earth is the Lord's. I don't have a problem with the idea that EVERYTHING is, in a way, sacred. The idea I have problems with is that a sanctuary is, in its own right, a sacred conveyor of divine grace. Nor do I believe that the cup or the bread is, in its own right, a sacred conveyor of divine grace. It is the relationships that come with those things that are sacred, and if there is any sense of these things being sacred, it is derived.Van SFri, 05 Nov 2004 10:12:32 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_969/#comment-5285435Sure, sure. Both Andy and Gregg make fine points. I don't want to say that buildings aren't special. In a way, they can have a sort of sacredness-by-proxy. The house I grew up in has great meaning for me because my family lived there. If someone wants to give special honor to a place, I'm not going to bite their head off, but calling a building sacred in the traditional sense is something I don't see any justification for. I don't hear anyone making a strong sacramental case for sacred space, so I suspect we're quibbling over finer points.<br><br>Andy, using Old Testament examples doesn't exactly work, since my basis for rejecting the notion of sacred space is that we have received the promised Holy Spirit.<br><br>Gregg, sure, the earth is the Lord's. I don't have a problem with the idea that EVERYTHING is, in a way, sacred. The idea I have problems with is that a sanctuary is, in its own right, a sacred conveyor of divine grace. Nor do I believe that the cup or the bread is, in its own right, a sacred conveyor of divine grace. It is the relationships that come with those things that are sacred, and if there is any sense of these things being sacred, it is derived.Van SFri, 05 Nov 2004 10:12:32 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_357/#comment-5285472I don't think he's excluding individual salvation. I think he's lifting up the "already" of the Kingdom of God. Perhaps he lifts it above the "not yet" but I would argue that lifting the "not yet" above the "already" is about as destrucive as the reverse.Van STue, 09 Nov 2004 13:57:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_systematic_exclusion_of_jesus_from_christianity/#comment-1219662I don't think he's excluding individual salvation. I think he's lifting up the "already" of the Kingdom of God. Perhaps he lifts it above the "not yet" but I would argue that lifting the "not yet" above the "already" is about as destrucive as the reverse.Van STue, 09 Nov 2004 14:57:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_357/#comment-5285469I don't think he's excluding individual salvation. I think he's lifting up the "already" of the Kingdom of God. Perhaps he lifts it above the "not yet" but I would argue that lifting the "not yet" above the "already" is about as destrucive as the reverse.Van STue, 09 Nov 2004 14:57:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_609/#comment-5285484I don't think these views can be so easily dismissed.<br></br><br>I didn't say that the emergent church will be the only ones, or even the first, to embrace an alternative canon. However, I think it is in the trajectory of some within the movement to do so.</br>Van SThu, 11 Nov 2004 21:33:32 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_prediction/#comment-1219668I don't think these views can be so easily dismissed.<br><br>I didn't say that the emergent church will be the only ones, or even the first, to embrace an alternative canon. However, I think it is in the trajectory of some within the movement to do so.Van SThu, 11 Nov 2004 22:33:32 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_609/#comment-5285478I don't think these views can be so easily dismissed.<br><br>I didn't say that the emergent church will be the only ones, or even the first, to embrace an alternative canon. However, I think it is in the trajectory of some within the movement to do so.Van SThu, 11 Nov 2004 22:33:32 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_609/#comment-5285486I agree with your assessment of the evidence, but we cannot simply ignore what is becoming a particularly tenacious approach to Biblical studies. There are MANY people who hold this view--like the Jesus Seminar. And whether we like them or not, they have a growing following. It is their philosophy of Biblical studies that guides the curriculum at United Theological Seminary here in the Twin Cities, for example. I doubt that evangelicals will ever substancially cave in to these issues, but I think some evangelicals with a vested interest in finding their own way (many within the emergent movement) may be tempted, hence my prediction. This isn't to say the emergent movement is unorthodox or filled with angry morons. I suppose I fall in the emergent camp in many ways. My point is, there is some of the pieces within the larger conversation that could easily materialize into something fishy.Van SFri, 12 Nov 2004 09:49:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_prediction/#comment-1219670I agree with your assessment of the evidence, but we cannot simply ignore what is becoming a particularly tenacious approach to Biblical studies. There are MANY people who hold this view--like the Jesus Seminar. And whether we like them or not, they have a growing following. It is their philosophy of Biblical studies that guides the curriculum at United Theological Seminary here in the Twin Cities, for example. I doubt that evangelicals will ever substancially cave in to these issues, but I think some evangelicals with a vested interest in finding their own way (many within the emergent movement) may be tempted, hence my prediction. This isn't to say the emergent movement is unorthodox or filled with angry morons. I suppose I fall in the emergent camp in many ways. My point is, there is some of the pieces within the larger conversation that could easily materialize into something fishy.Van SFri, 12 Nov 2004 10:49:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_609/#comment-5285480I agree with your assessment of the evidence, but we cannot simply ignore what is becoming a particularly tenacious approach to Biblical studies. There are MANY people who hold this view--like the Jesus Seminar. And whether we like them or not, they have a growing following. It is their philosophy of Biblical studies that guides the curriculum at United Theological Seminary here in the Twin Cities, for example. I doubt that evangelicals will ever substancially cave in to these issues, but I think some evangelicals with a vested interest in finding their own way (many within the emergent movement) may be tempted, hence my prediction. This isn't to say the emergent movement is unorthodox or filled with angry morons. I suppose I fall in the emergent camp in many ways. My point is, there is some of the pieces within the larger conversation that could easily materialize into something fishy.Van SFri, 12 Nov 2004 10:49:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_431/#comment-5285413<strong>Hilarious</strong><br></br><br>Take a look at this. Tickled my sense of humour.</br><br></br><br>P.S. I don't take a stance on US politics - I'm only highlighting this because I thought the image was funny. OK?</br>Van SSat, 13 Nov 2004 10:45:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_579/#comment-5285635That is a good point. Much is determined by trendiness. But who determines the trends? I think many of the current trends in the Church started out of a valid concern. I think many reject such trends simply because they are trendy, and therefore react back into 17th Century Calvinism (hence the popularity of John Piper and the like). I think serious thought about evil and Satan is probably neglected by most Christians--except our Pentecostal and Charismatic sisters and brothers, who tend to over-indulge in speculation about evil and the occult. WHere is the balanced view?Van STue, 16 Nov 2004 13:21:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/an_evil_question/#comment-1219682That is a good point. Much is determined by trendiness. But who determines the trends? I think many of the current trends in the Church started out of a valid concern. I think many reject such trends simply because they are trendy, and therefore react back into 17th Century Calvinism (hence the popularity of John Piper and the like). I think serious thought about evil and Satan is probably neglected by most Christians--except our Pentecostal and Charismatic sisters and brothers, who tend to over-indulge in speculation about evil and the occult. WHere is the balanced view?Van STue, 16 Nov 2004 14:21:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_579/#comment-5285616That is a good point. Much is determined by trendiness. But who determines the trends? I think many of the current trends in the Church started out of a valid concern. I think many reject such trends simply because they are trendy, and therefore react back into 17th Century Calvinism (hence the popularity of John Piper and the like). I think serious thought about evil and Satan is probably neglected by most Christians--except our Pentecostal and Charismatic sisters and brothers, who tend to over-indulge in speculation about evil and the occult. WHere is the balanced view?Van STue, 16 Nov 2004 14:21:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_89/#comment-5285724You are right to point out how our experience is determining the way in which we "sample" from various theological traditions. This phenomenon isn't entirely destructive. I "sample" from a number of traditions (I'm using the word "sample" in a similar way to the way hip hop artists use it. They take melodies or clips from exisiting songs and incorporate it into a new work. We are all supposed to take the best of those that have gone before us and incorporate it into something new). My concern isn't with sampling, but with the way in which we engage in sampling. We often draw from theological traditions without giving much thought to those traditions (for example, emergent churches using icons in worship without understanding much about the history and thinking behind iconography). We also slap together various pieces from a variety of Christian traditions without much reflection (like the use of a lot of Catholic spirituality mixed with reformed soteriology...these two things aren't mutually exclusive, but they aren't likely bedfellows).<br></br><br>How ought we to engage in theological "sampling?" How do we challenge the misuse of theological sampling and encourage proper uses?</br>Van SSat, 20 Nov 2004 15:37:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/who_has_the_right/#comment-1219695You are right to point out how our experience is determining the way in which we "sample" from various theological traditions. This phenomenon isn't entirely destructive. I "sample" from a number of traditions (I'm using the word "sample" in a similar way to the way hip hop artists use it. They take melodies or clips from exisiting songs and incorporate it into a new work. We are all supposed to take the best of those that have gone before us and incorporate it into something new). My concern isn't with sampling, but with the way in which we engage in sampling. We often draw from theological traditions without giving much thought to those traditions (for example, emergent churches using icons in worship without understanding much about the history and thinking behind iconography). We also slap together various pieces from a variety of Christian traditions without much reflection (like the use of a lot of Catholic spirituality mixed with reformed soteriology...these two things aren't mutually exclusive, but they aren't likely bedfellows).<br><br>How ought we to engage in theological "sampling?" How do we challenge the misuse of theological sampling and encourage proper uses?Van SSat, 20 Nov 2004 16:37:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_89/#comment-5285716You are right to point out how our experience is determining the way in which we "sample" from various theological traditions. This phenomenon isn't entirely destructive. I "sample" from a number of traditions (I'm using the word "sample" in a similar way to the way hip hop artists use it. They take melodies or clips from exisiting songs and incorporate it into a new work. We are all supposed to take the best of those that have gone before us and incorporate it into something new). My concern isn't with sampling, but with the way in which we engage in sampling. We often draw from theological traditions without giving much thought to those traditions (for example, emergent churches using icons in worship without understanding much about the history and thinking behind iconography). We also slap together various pieces from a variety of Christian traditions without much reflection (like the use of a lot of Catholic spirituality mixed with reformed soteriology...these two things aren't mutually exclusive, but they aren't likely bedfellows).<br><br>How ought we to engage in theological "sampling?" How do we challenge the misuse of theological sampling and encourage proper uses?Van SSat, 20 Nov 2004 16:37:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_89/#comment-5285728I agree, Jeremy. Towards the end of your comments, you bring up the key word: "theologically." Doing theology is a discipline. It takes a great deal of study and reflection and dialogue. Pursuing ecclecticism theologically is needed.Van SSun, 21 Nov 2004 14:47:55 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/who_has_the_right/#comment-1219697I agree, Jeremy. Towards the end of your comments, you bring up the key word: "theologically." Doing theology is a discipline. It takes a great deal of study and reflection and dialogue. Pursuing ecclecticism theologically is needed.Van SSun, 21 Nov 2004 15:47:55 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_89/#comment-5285720I agree, Jeremy. Towards the end of your comments, you bring up the key word: "theologically." Doing theology is a discipline. It takes a great deal of study and reflection and dialogue. Pursuing ecclecticism theologically is needed.Van SSun, 21 Nov 2004 15:47:55 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_76/#comment-5285803I agree, no modern scholar has done this justice. Many modern scholarship is very theodical (is that a word?), such as process theology, open theism, etc. Many theologies that tend to fall into liberal scholarship are driven by their theodicies. However, evangelicals and many conservatives haven't risen to the challenge by addressing the problem of evil with the best of biblical, theological, and pastoral insight.Van SThu, 25 Nov 2004 10:39:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_limit_of_theodicy/#comment-1219708I agree, no modern scholar has done this justice. Many modern scholarship is very theodical (is that a word?), such as process theology, open theism, etc. Many theologies that tend to fall into liberal scholarship are driven by their theodicies. However, evangelicals and many conservatives haven't risen to the challenge by addressing the problem of evil with the best of biblical, theological, and pastoral insight.Van SThu, 25 Nov 2004 11:39:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_76/#comment-5285798I agree, no modern scholar has done this justice. Many modern scholarship is very theodical (is that a word?), such as process theology, open theism, etc. Many theologies that tend to fall into liberal scholarship are driven by their theodicies. However, evangelicals and many conservatives haven't risen to the challenge by addressing the problem of evil with the best of biblical, theological, and pastoral insight.Van SThu, 25 Nov 2004 11:39:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_22/#comment-5285826That is one solution. But it isn't always the possible or desired solution. What are some other options?Van SMon, 29 Nov 2004 07:43:11 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/too_much_focus_on_8220the_gathering8221/#comment-1219711That is one solution. But it isn't always the possible or desired solution. What are some other options?Van SMon, 29 Nov 2004 08:43:11 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_22/#comment-5285818That is one solution. But it isn't always the possible or desired solution. What are some other options?Van SMon, 29 Nov 2004 08:43:11 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_22/#comment-5285829I agree. But I do think it is far easier to start with mission and move towards community than to start with a community and try to create mission. I think I'll blog about that.Van STue, 30 Nov 2004 08:47:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/too_much_focus_on_8220the_gathering8221/#comment-1219713I agree. But I do think it is far easier to start with mission and move towards community than to start with a community and try to create mission. I think I'll blog about that.Van STue, 30 Nov 2004 09:47:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_22/#comment-5285822I agree. But I do think it is far easier to start with mission and move towards community than to start with a community and try to create mission. I think I'll blog about that.Van STue, 30 Nov 2004 09:47:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_327/#comment-5285884<a href="http://www.gocn.org/indicators.htm" rel="nofollow">The Empirical Indicators of a "Missional Church"</a> for an idea of those implications.<br></br><br>To me, a community is any group of people who share a common ethos or culture. This is a very broad definition, but it is functional.</br><br></br><br>So, what I am saying in my original post is that the sort of church "community" described in the New Testament must emerge out of the church's sense of mission.</br>Van STue, 30 Nov 2004 23:47:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/community_ouf_of_mission_or_mission_out_of_community/#comment-1219717<a href="http://www.gocn.org/indicators.htm" rel="nofollow">The Empirical Indicators of a "Missional Church"</a> for an idea of those implications.<br><br>To me, a community is any group of people who share a common ethos or culture. This is a very broad definition, but it is functional.<br><br>So, what I am saying in my original post is that the sort of church "community" described in the New Testament must emerge out of the church's sense of mission.Van SWed, 01 Dec 2004 00:47:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_327/#comment-5285874Both "missional" and "community" are indeed subjective concepts. I use the word "missional" in the way that is used by contemporary missiologists/theologians. Though many claim the word "missional," it is usually ascribed to a certain ecclesiology developed by people such as David Bosch, Lesslie Newbigin, Darrel Guder, Craig Van Gelder, Alan Roxburgh, etc. There is a group called the "Gospel and Our Culture Network" that is perhaps the most indicative of "missional" ecclesiology (<a href="http://www.GOCN.org" rel="nofollow">www.GOCN.org</a>). They start with the assumption that the church doesn't DO mission; the church IS mission, by its very nature. The Church is never at home in any culture, instead it participates with God in embodying and communicating the Gospel of Jesus Christ.<br><br>A "missional" church isn't a different flavor or type of church. The difference is that a "missional" church has a different definition of "church" and seeks to live out that definition in whatever culture they are in. There are some implications of doing church "missionally." I reccommend that you read <a href="http://www.gocn.org/indicators.htm" rel="nofollow">The Empirical Indicators of a "Missional Church"</a> for an idea of those implications.<br><br>To me, a community is any group of people who share a common ethos or culture. This is a very broad definition, but it is functional.<br><br>So, what I am saying in my original post is that the sort of church "community" described in the New Testament must emerge out of the church's sense of mission.Van SWed, 01 Dec 2004 00:47:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_19/#comment-5285992Well how about "applied pneumatology?" We have some ideas from Scripture as to what this looks like (Scripture is deliciously decentralized and a bit vague).<br></br><br>I think starting with "waiting upon the Spirit" is a great starting point for decision-making.</br>Van SThu, 09 Dec 2004 20:26:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/practical_pneumatology/#comment-1219725Well how about "applied pneumatology?" We have some ideas from Scripture as to what this looks like (Scripture is deliciously decentralized and a bit vague).<br><br>I think starting with "waiting upon the Spirit" is a great starting point for decision-making.Van SThu, 09 Dec 2004 21:26:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_19/#comment-5285988Well how about "applied pneumatology?" We have some ideas from Scripture as to what this looks like (Scripture is deliciously decentralized and a bit vague).<br><br>I think starting with "waiting upon the Spirit" is a great starting point for decision-making.Van SThu, 09 Dec 2004 21:26:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_176/#comment-5286044You all bring great insights. Todd, you're right. We should rejoice in the small glimmers of hope. After all, Lewis had stages he went through between atheism and Christianity. And Perhaps this Flew fellow is on his way.<br></br><br>Jeremy, you might be right. Flew could be some old dude who feels like he needs to shake things up...what better way than to embrace deism?</br><br></br><br>Chris--amen. Jesus isn't simple an expansion pack for theism.</br>Van SWed, 15 Dec 2004 12:09:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/who_cares/#comment-1219729You all bring great insights. Todd, you're right. We should rejoice in the small glimmers of hope. After all, Lewis had stages he went through between atheism and Christianity. And Perhaps this Flew fellow is on his way.<br><br>Jeremy, you might be right. Flew could be some old dude who feels like he needs to shake things up...what better way than to embrace deism?<br><br>Chris--amen. Jesus isn't simple an expansion pack for theism.Van SWed, 15 Dec 2004 13:09:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_176/#comment-5286036You all bring great insights. Todd, you're right. We should rejoice in the small glimmers of hope. After all, Lewis had stages he went through between atheism and Christianity. And Perhaps this Flew fellow is on his way.<br><br>Jeremy, you might be right. Flew could be some old dude who feels like he needs to shake things up...what better way than to embrace deism?<br><br>Chris--amen. Jesus isn't simple an expansion pack for theism.Van SWed, 15 Dec 2004 13:09:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_621/#comment-5286064Amen, Keith.Van SThu, 16 Dec 2004 09:05:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/5_suggestions_to_the_emergent_church/#comment-1219731Amen, Keith.Van SThu, 16 Dec 2004 10:05:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_621/#comment-5286061Amen, Keith.Van SThu, 16 Dec 2004 10:05:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_33/#comment-5286081The approach would be to have people discuss how to be and do church in a faithful way in light of the problems of consumerism...so the focus could include both subverting consumerism in the church, as well as subverting consumerism outside of the church.<br></br><br>I used to think lots of conferences were a waste of time--but they can be very helpful. Conferences provide an opportunity for people to learn from one another--a sort of continuing education for those who otherwise might not have opportunities to learn. Some conferences are a waste of time, for sure. Some conferences are overly focused on propogating a model (a la Willow Creek), others tend to neglect practical implications. My hope would be that a conference like the one I propose would allow for both thinking and praxis.</br>Van SFri, 17 Dec 2004 14:51:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/being_church_in_a_consumer_culture/#comment-1219733The approach would be to have people discuss how to be and do church in a faithful way in light of the problems of consumerism...so the focus could include both subverting consumerism in the church, as well as subverting consumerism outside of the church.<br><br>I used to think lots of conferences were a waste of time--but they can be very helpful. Conferences provide an opportunity for people to learn from one another--a sort of continuing education for those who otherwise might not have opportunities to learn. Some conferences are a waste of time, for sure. Some conferences are overly focused on propogating a model (a la Willow Creek), others tend to neglect practical implications. My hope would be that a conference like the one I propose would allow for both thinking and praxis.Van SFri, 17 Dec 2004 15:51:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_33/#comment-5286073The approach would be to have people discuss how to be and do church in a faithful way in light of the problems of consumerism...so the focus could include both subverting consumerism in the church, as well as subverting consumerism outside of the church.<br><br>I used to think lots of conferences were a waste of time--but they can be very helpful. Conferences provide an opportunity for people to learn from one another--a sort of continuing education for those who otherwise might not have opportunities to learn. Some conferences are a waste of time, for sure. Some conferences are overly focused on propogating a model (a la Willow Creek), others tend to neglect practical implications. My hope would be that a conference like the one I propose would allow for both thinking and praxis.Van SFri, 17 Dec 2004 15:51:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_33/#comment-5286083I guess I am working under the assumption that those who attend conferences like the one I am suggesting are already practioners. I agree that the best way to learn is to get out there and start doing. But it is also good to exchange notes along the way.Van SFri, 17 Dec 2004 22:14:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/being_church_in_a_consumer_culture/#comment-1219735I guess I am working under the assumption that those who attend conferences like the one I am suggesting are already practioners. I agree that the best way to learn is to get out there and start doing. But it is also good to exchange notes along the way.Van SFri, 17 Dec 2004 23:14:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_33/#comment-5286076I guess I am working under the assumption that those who attend conferences like the one I am suggesting are already practioners. I agree that the best way to learn is to get out there and start doing. But it is also good to exchange notes along the way.Van SFri, 17 Dec 2004 23:14:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_489/#comment-5286099I guess the arguments against consumerism work against globalism, if one understands globalism as the global spread of consumerism and the consumerist machine.<br></br><br>I don't only against excessive consumerism but all consumerism...since consumerism isn't just buying and selling stuff...it is a full-blown ism: that increased consumption is a societal good.</br>Van SSat, 18 Dec 2004 13:06:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/any_suggestions/#comment-1219741I guess the arguments against consumerism work against globalism, if one understands globalism as the global spread of consumerism and the consumerist machine.<br><br>I don't only against excessive consumerism but all consumerism...since consumerism isn't just buying and selling stuff...it is a full-blown ism: that increased consumption is a societal good.Van SSat, 18 Dec 2004 14:06:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_489/#comment-5286090I guess the arguments against consumerism work against globalism, if one understands globalism as the global spread of consumerism and the consumerist machine.<br><br>I don't only against excessive consumerism but all consumerism...since consumerism isn't just buying and selling stuff...it is a full-blown ism: that increased consumption is a societal good.Van SSat, 18 Dec 2004 14:06:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_489/#comment-5286094There is a difference between being a consumer and someone who is a "consumerist." Globalism can be somewhat beneficial, but it always favors those with greater resources...for example gas costs less in America than it does elsewhere. This sort of reality helps the "haves" to have more, and the "have nots" to have less. Capitalism has a dark side. The global economy keeps the third world in debt and the first world in dominance. There simple isn't a level playing field. Here are a couple articles to check out for evidence that globalism has a dark side:<br><br><a href="http://www.sprint.net.au/~rwb/globen.htm" rel="nofollow">What is globalisation and who benefits?</a><br><a href="http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1101" rel="nofollow">The World Trade Organization: A Theological Critique</a><br><a href="http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/krugman.htm" rel="nofollow">We Are Not the World</a>Van SMon, 20 Dec 2004 04:22:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_81/#comment-5286140Fair enough, Brett. You seem to be working with the assumption that I have a polical axe to grind. I do not. I am not involved in politics. I am not a liberal. In fact, up until I started abstaining from voting, I mostly voted republican.Van SThu, 30 Dec 2004 01:46:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_489/#comment-5286104It is foolish to say that consumerism and globalism have no real significance. In no way do I think the church should get involved with trying to combat these sorts of things by political means. But the way in which the free market works is that it encourages those in developing nations with means to exploit the lower classes in order to turn a profit. Globalism isn't all bad. But it has a dark side. Buying and selling things isn't inherently bad, but consumerism is. Here's a description of consumerism that comes from a book called "Christ and Consumerism" edited by Craig Bartholomew and Thorsten Moritz:<br></br><br>1) Consumerism points to a culture in which the core values of the culture derive from consumption rather than the other way around.</br><br></br><br>2) In consumerism, freedom is equated with individual choice and private life.</br><br></br><br>3) A consumer culture is one in which ironically needs are unlimited and insatiable.</br><br></br><br>In other words, our desire to pick and choose whatever we want drives us...causing us and our sacred choice to be at the center of our universe. We consume more and more and it is never enough. This desire for more junk causes the developing world to be somewhat exploited for the sake of luxury. Anyone who has visited working conditions in the developing world has seen this. The American thirst for stuff has made it difficult for us American Christians to slow down and seek God in a right way. We treat him as another item to be consumed. We treat people as commodities. We shop for theologies. We shop for churches. And our desire to have whatever we individually want causes people in another part of the world to be exploited so that someone can make a profit off of our desire.</br><br></br><br>While I am not advocating some sort of marxism or something ridiculous like that, doesn't it seem fair to ask the church to curb its spending habits and start trying to share Jesus with the world instead of sharing our greed with the world?</br>Van SThu, 30 Dec 2004 01:59:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_677/#comment-5286167Well...I'm thinking Minneapolis, since that is where I live...but I would be open to some other location. I would like to find a church that has a large enough facility, and that is open to hosting the conference for relatively cheap... :)Van SThu, 30 Dec 2004 02:06:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/education_for_50/#comment-1219751Fair enough, Brett. You seem to be working with the assumption that I have a polical axe to grind. I do not. I am not involved in politics. I am not a liberal. In fact, up until I started abstaining from voting, I mostly voted republican.Van SThu, 30 Dec 2004 02:46:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_81/#comment-5286132Fair enough, Brett. You seem to be working with the assumption that I have a polical axe to grind. I do not. I am not involved in politics. I am not a liberal. In fact, up until I started abstaining from voting, I mostly voted republican.Van SThu, 30 Dec 2004 02:46:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/any_suggestions/#comment-1219747It is foolish to say that consumerism and globalism have no real significance. In no way do I think the church should get involved with trying to combat these sorts of things by political means. But the way in which the free market works is that it encourages those in developing nations with means to exploit the lower classes in order to turn a profit. Globalism isn't all bad. But it has a dark side. Buying and selling things isn't inherently bad, but consumerism is. Here's a description of consumerism that comes from a book called "Christ and Consumerism" edited by Craig Bartholomew and Thorsten Moritz:<br><br>1) Consumerism points to a culture in which the core values of the culture derive from consumption rather than the other way around.<br><br>2) In consumerism, freedom is equated with individual choice and private life.<br><br>3) A consumer culture is one in which ironically needs are unlimited and insatiable.<br><br>In other words, our desire to pick and choose whatever we want drives us...causing us and our sacred choice to be at the center of our universe. We consume more and more and it is never enough. This desire for more junk causes the developing world to be somewhat exploited for the sake of luxury. Anyone who has visited working conditions in the developing world has seen this. The American thirst for stuff has made it difficult for us American Christians to slow down and seek God in a right way. We treat him as another item to be consumed. We treat people as commodities. We shop for theologies. We shop for churches. And our desire to have whatever we individually want causes people in another part of the world to be exploited so that someone can make a profit off of our desire.<br><br>While I am not advocating some sort of marxism or something ridiculous like that, doesn't it seem fair to ask the church to curb its spending habits and start trying to share Jesus with the world instead of sharing our greed with the world?Van SThu, 30 Dec 2004 02:59:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_489/#comment-5286096It is foolish to say that consumerism and globalism have no real significance. In no way do I think the church should get involved with trying to combat these sorts of things by political means. But the way in which the free market works is that it encourages those in developing nations with means to exploit the lower classes in order to turn a profit. Globalism isn't all bad. But it has a dark side. Buying and selling things isn't inherently bad, but consumerism is. Here's a description of consumerism that comes from a book called "Christ and Consumerism" edited by Craig Bartholomew and Thorsten Moritz:<br><br>1) Consumerism points to a culture in which the core values of the culture derive from consumption rather than the other way around.<br><br>2) In consumerism, freedom is equated with individual choice and private life.<br><br>3) A consumer culture is one in which ironically needs are unlimited and insatiable.<br><br>In other words, our desire to pick and choose whatever we want drives us...causing us and our sacred choice to be at the center of our universe. We consume more and more and it is never enough. This desire for more junk causes the developing world to be somewhat exploited for the sake of luxury. Anyone who has visited working conditions in the developing world has seen this. The American thirst for stuff has made it difficult for us American Christians to slow down and seek God in a right way. We treat him as another item to be consumed. We treat people as commodities. We shop for theologies. We shop for churches. And our desire to have whatever we individually want causes people in another part of the world to be exploited so that someone can make a profit off of our desire.<br><br>While I am not advocating some sort of marxism or something ridiculous like that, doesn't it seem fair to ask the church to curb its spending habits and start trying to share Jesus with the world instead of sharing our greed with the world?Van SThu, 30 Dec 2004 02:59:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/missionthink_2006_48/#comment-1219756Well...I'm thinking Minneapolis, since that is where I live...but I would be open to some other location. I would like to find a church that has a large enough facility, and that is open to hosting the conference for relatively cheap... :)Van SThu, 30 Dec 2004 03:06:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_677/#comment-5286158Well...I'm thinking Minneapolis, since that is where I live...but I would be open to some other location. I would like to find a church that has a large enough facility, and that is open to hosting the conference for relatively cheap... :)Van SThu, 30 Dec 2004 03:06:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_731/#comment-5286263Please elaborate, Christopher. I agree, and I get what you're saying, but fleshing the idea out more would be good. Also, how do we help people see that orienting one's self to the other and elevating them can draw them into the life of God.Van SSat, 08 Jan 2005 14:39:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_question/#comment-1219761Please elaborate, Christopher. I agree, and I get what you're saying, but fleshing the idea out more would be good. Also, how do we help people see that orienting one's self to the other and elevating them can draw them into the life of God.Van SSat, 08 Jan 2005 15:39:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_731/#comment-5286257Please elaborate, Christopher. I agree, and I get what you're saying, but fleshing the idea out more would be good. Also, how do we help people see that orienting one's self to the other and elevating them can draw them into the life of God.Van SSat, 08 Jan 2005 15:39:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_212/#comment-5286228Thanks for the reminder, Jeremy. It is up to the Spirit to form our community. Thanks for praying.Van STue, 11 Jan 2005 13:42:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/on_illness_and_pastoral_care/#comment-1219759Thanks for the reminder, Jeremy. It is up to the Spirit to form our community. Thanks for praying.Van STue, 11 Jan 2005 14:42:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_212/#comment-5286224Thanks for the reminder, Jeremy. It is up to the Spirit to form our community. Thanks for praying.Van STue, 11 Jan 2005 14:42:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_577/#comment-5286348<strong>Physical Worship</strong><br></br><br>I confess, I recently went to a church service. It doesn't happen very often (did I go to one in 2004?). At first, I was excited because part of the reason I wanted to go was to particpate in the eucharist, and I saw a table with the elements.</br><br></br><br>Anoth...</br>Van SWed, 12 Jan 2005 12:51:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_577/#comment-5286350I think ANY view will have a risk of disembodiment, since Christ isn't present in his humanity. The only two viable views in my mind which can offer a robust physicality to the Eucharist is to say that Jesus is present in the bread and wine OR to say that he is present in the people. IF you go the route of transubstantiation, then you have to say that the substance of the bread and wine change into Jesus' actual flesh. Scripture doesn't seem to really go there...but it does talk about his Body all the time as the church. And as we, the community of Christ, worship him, we share in his divinity (partaking in the divine nature) and his humanity (I'm going along with Irenaus' recapitulation view here). So in a very real sense the CHurch IS an extention of Christ's physicality, as we make up a new humanity that is being conformed to Christ. I am essentially taking an Orthodox aproach to spirituality and eucharist and applying it to an anabaptist ecclesiology. I think this is a very important dialogue...and I'm just starting to work through this in my thinking, but I think there is real potential here in having incarnational spirituality that doesn't require high church sacramentalism.Van SThu, 13 Jan 2005 16:21:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_eucharist_and_incarnation/#comment-1219767I think ANY view will have a risk of disembodiment, since Christ isn't present in his humanity. The only two viable views in my mind which can offer a robust physicality to the Eucharist is to say that Jesus is present in the bread and wine OR to say that he is present in the people. IF you go the route of transubstantiation, then you have to say that the substance of the bread and wine change into Jesus' actual flesh. Scripture doesn't seem to really go there...but it does talk about his Body all the time as the church. And as we, the community of Christ, worship him, we share in his divinity (partaking in the divine nature) and his humanity (I'm going along with Irenaus' recapitulation view here). So in a very real sense the CHurch IS an extention of Christ's physicality, as we make up a new humanity that is being conformed to Christ. I am essentially taking an Orthodox aproach to spirituality and eucharist and applying it to an anabaptist ecclesiology. I think this is a very important dialogue...and I'm just starting to work through this in my thinking, but I think there is real potential here in having incarnational spirituality that doesn't require high church sacramentalism.Van SThu, 13 Jan 2005 17:21:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_577/#comment-5286338I think ANY view will have a risk of disembodiment, since Christ isn't present in his humanity. The only two viable views in my mind which can offer a robust physicality to the Eucharist is to say that Jesus is present in the bread and wine OR to say that he is present in the people. IF you go the route of transubstantiation, then you have to say that the substance of the bread and wine change into Jesus' actual flesh. Scripture doesn't seem to really go there...but it does talk about his Body all the time as the church. And as we, the community of Christ, worship him, we share in his divinity (partaking in the divine nature) and his humanity (I'm going along with Irenaus' recapitulation view here). So in a very real sense the CHurch IS an extention of Christ's physicality, as we make up a new humanity that is being conformed to Christ. I am essentially taking an Orthodox aproach to spirituality and eucharist and applying it to an anabaptist ecclesiology. I think this is a very important dialogue...and I'm just starting to work through this in my thinking, but I think there is real potential here in having incarnational spirituality that doesn't require high church sacramentalism.Van SThu, 13 Jan 2005 17:21:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_577/#comment-5286352Irenaeus argues (as I understand it) that Jesus took on humanity in becoming a human...so that those who are in Christ might participate in Christ's humanity. Jesus is the new Adam...those who are identified with the new Adam participate in a "new humanity." John Zizioulas (an Orthodox thinker) would say that as we, the Church, participate in the divine nature in Christ, we are granted new being...an ecclesial being. Our substance changes as we enter into a transformative relationship(deification) with the Trinity through Christ. So, there is a real sense of "incarnation" as Christ is physically present through us, as a new humanity (the church), since we share in his new way of being human. This must be kept in tension, however, for there is a "not yet" to our current embodiement--we remain to be glorified.<br></br><br>Orthodox and Catholic thinkers that are sympathetic to an Irenaen understanding put the eucharist in a central role to understanding this "partaking in the divine nature." I don't understand why this is required for the construct to work. It seems to me that one could still think this way, but say the way we "partake in the divine nature" is pneumatologically...that the presence of the Spirit in our lives causes our new way of being...and causes us to be incarnational. After all, Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit? Shouldn't also the church be conceived in the same way?</br><br></br><br>By "high church sacramentalism" I am including consubstantiation as well, but transubstantiation in particular.</br>Van SFri, 14 Jan 2005 23:39:11 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_eucharist_and_incarnation/#comment-1219769Irenaeus argues (as I understand it) that Jesus took on humanity in becoming a human...so that those who are in Christ might participate in Christ's humanity. Jesus is the new Adam...those who are identified with the new Adam participate in a "new humanity." John Zizioulas (an Orthodox thinker) would say that as we, the Church, participate in the divine nature in Christ, we are granted new being...an ecclesial being. Our substance changes as we enter into a transformative relationship(deification) with the Trinity through Christ. So, there is a real sense of "incarnation" as Christ is physically present through us, as a new humanity (the church), since we share in his new way of being human. This must be kept in tension, however, for there is a "not yet" to our current embodiement--we remain to be glorified.<br><br>Orthodox and Catholic thinkers that are sympathetic to an Irenaen understanding put the eucharist in a central role to understanding this "partaking in the divine nature." I don't understand why this is required for the construct to work. It seems to me that one could still think this way, but say the way we "partake in the divine nature" is pneumatologically...that the presence of the Spirit in our lives causes our new way of being...and causes us to be incarnational. After all, Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit? Shouldn't also the church be conceived in the same way?<br><br>By "high church sacramentalism" I am including consubstantiation as well, but transubstantiation in particular.Van SSat, 15 Jan 2005 00:39:11 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_577/#comment-5286342Irenaeus argues (as I understand it) that Jesus took on humanity in becoming a human...so that those who are in Christ might participate in Christ's humanity. Jesus is the new Adam...those who are identified with the new Adam participate in a "new humanity." John Zizioulas (an Orthodox thinker) would say that as we, the Church, participate in the divine nature in Christ, we are granted new being...an ecclesial being. Our substance changes as we enter into a transformative relationship(deification) with the Trinity through Christ. So, there is a real sense of "incarnation" as Christ is physically present through us, as a new humanity (the church), since we share in his new way of being human. This must be kept in tension, however, for there is a "not yet" to our current embodiement--we remain to be glorified.<br><br>Orthodox and Catholic thinkers that are sympathetic to an Irenaen understanding put the eucharist in a central role to understanding this "partaking in the divine nature." I don't understand why this is required for the construct to work. It seems to me that one could still think this way, but say the way we "partake in the divine nature" is pneumatologically...that the presence of the Spirit in our lives causes our new way of being...and causes us to be incarnational. After all, Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit? Shouldn't also the church be conceived in the same way?<br><br>By "high church sacramentalism" I am including consubstantiation as well, but transubstantiation in particular.Van SSat, 15 Jan 2005 00:39:11 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_577/#comment-5286354True, the Bible DOES say that...but I'd rather emphasize the meriad of passages where the Church is seen as Christ's embodiment...rather than the Eucharist. I'd be willing to say that thte Eucharist is a form of incarnation...but instead of going the route of saying that the Eucharist is the center of the church...that we experience God's presence in the Eucharist primarily, and that presence constitutes the church, I would reverse it. The Eucharist expresses Christ's presence because it is constituted by our gathering. In otherwords, the presence of Christ in the gathering gives substance to the act of Eucharist, rather than the act of eucharist giving the presence of Christ to the community.Van SMon, 17 Jan 2005 11:31:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_eucharist_and_incarnation/#comment-1219771True, the Bible DOES say that...but I'd rather emphasize the meriad of passages where the Church is seen as Christ's embodiment...rather than the Eucharist. I'd be willing to say that thte Eucharist is a form of incarnation...but instead of going the route of saying that the Eucharist is the center of the church...that we experience God's presence in the Eucharist primarily, and that presence constitutes the church, I would reverse it. The Eucharist expresses Christ's presence because it is constituted by our gathering. In otherwords, the presence of Christ in the gathering gives substance to the act of Eucharist, rather than the act of eucharist giving the presence of Christ to the community.Van SMon, 17 Jan 2005 12:31:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_577/#comment-5286346True, the Bible DOES say that...but I'd rather emphasize the meriad of passages where the Church is seen as Christ's embodiment...rather than the Eucharist. I'd be willing to say that thte Eucharist is a form of incarnation...but instead of going the route of saying that the Eucharist is the center of the church...that we experience God's presence in the Eucharist primarily, and that presence constitutes the church, I would reverse it. The Eucharist expresses Christ's presence because it is constituted by our gathering. In otherwords, the presence of Christ in the gathering gives substance to the act of Eucharist, rather than the act of eucharist giving the presence of Christ to the community.Van SMon, 17 Jan 2005 12:31:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_652/#comment-5286373It's true that they met at the temple early on. However, their worship was no longer centered around the temple, it was centered on Jesus Christ. We see in Acts that they continued to meet at the temple, which was a central social phenomena, but they began to engage in religious practices in homes. The Temple was no longer the focus of worship. This message can be seen clearly in Hebrews. In Christianity, we see no earthly priests, no centralizing temple. We see a temple made of people and a high priest in heaven. Even with apostolic leadership, leadership is fluid, plural, and dialogical.<br></br><br>Hanging out in one big place is permissable. I have nothing against hundreds of people getting together to sing and hear teaching. But this is only a small part of what the church is. So, while they had the ability to gather in the Temple, they did. When persecution came, they stopped going. They were able to make that transition very smoothly, because their theology was very much decentralized.</br>Van SThu, 20 Jan 2005 16:35:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/action_research_a_methodology_towards_a_model/#comment-1219774It's true that they met at the temple early on. However, their worship was no longer centered around the temple, it was centered on Jesus Christ. We see in Acts that they continued to meet at the temple, which was a central social phenomena, but they began to engage in religious practices in homes. The Temple was no longer the focus of worship. This message can be seen clearly in Hebrews. In Christianity, we see no earthly priests, no centralizing temple. We see a temple made of people and a high priest in heaven. Even with apostolic leadership, leadership is fluid, plural, and dialogical.<br><br>Hanging out in one big place is permissable. I have nothing against hundreds of people getting together to sing and hear teaching. But this is only a small part of what the church is. So, while they had the ability to gather in the Temple, they did. When persecution came, they stopped going. They were able to make that transition very smoothly, because their theology was very much decentralized.Van SThu, 20 Jan 2005 17:35:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_652/#comment-5286367It's true that they met at the temple early on. However, their worship was no longer centered around the temple, it was centered on Jesus Christ. We see in Acts that they continued to meet at the temple, which was a central social phenomena, but they began to engage in religious practices in homes. The Temple was no longer the focus of worship. This message can be seen clearly in Hebrews. In Christianity, we see no earthly priests, no centralizing temple. We see a temple made of people and a high priest in heaven. Even with apostolic leadership, leadership is fluid, plural, and dialogical.<br><br>Hanging out in one big place is permissable. I have nothing against hundreds of people getting together to sing and hear teaching. But this is only a small part of what the church is. So, while they had the ability to gather in the Temple, they did. When persecution came, they stopped going. They were able to make that transition very smoothly, because their theology was very much decentralized.Van SThu, 20 Jan 2005 17:35:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_652/#comment-5286376Good comments. I don't disagree that you have some people who serve in a more central role in different areas. I think we need teachers and leaders.Van SSat, 22 Jan 2005 20:24:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/action_research_a_methodology_towards_a_model/#comment-1219776Good comments. I don't disagree that you have some people who serve in a more central role in different areas. I think we need teachers and leaders.Van SSat, 22 Jan 2005 21:24:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_652/#comment-5286369Good comments. I don't disagree that you have some people who serve in a more central role in different areas. I think we need teachers and leaders.Van SSat, 22 Jan 2005 21:24:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_225/#comment-5286400I very much agree. The idea that commodification (which abstracts things and makes them contextless fragments of consumption) has caused us to disembody our faith away from Tradition and Community is profound. We have essentially unincarnated our faith and allowed each individual to re-incarnate their faith according to their own consumer tastes.Van STue, 01 Feb 2005 23:05:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/an_interview_with_vincent_j_miller/#comment-1219784I very much agree. The idea that commodification (which abstracts things and makes them contextless fragments of consumption) has caused us to disembody our faith away from Tradition and Community is profound. We have essentially unincarnated our faith and allowed each individual to re-incarnate their faith according to their own consumer tastes.Van SWed, 02 Feb 2005 00:05:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_225/#comment-5286395I very much agree. The idea that commodification (which abstracts things and makes them contextless fragments of consumption) has caused us to disembody our faith away from Tradition and Community is profound. We have essentially unincarnated our faith and allowed each individual to re-incarnate their faith according to their own consumer tastes.Van SWed, 02 Feb 2005 00:05:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_225/#comment-5286402The problem is that the problem is so enormous...its not like you could do a couple of quick fixes and have everything be ok. I think it requires submission. People need to submit themselves to a community that isn't determined by consumer tastes. People need to practice REAL hospitality, move towards sharing posessions, and begin to experience the sort of relationships that are formed when one is vulnerable to others. Also, people need to spend much less on luxury items, pay more for essentials (payin extra for local or fair trade goods, so that we feel connected to where the goods come from). The idea is to get away from feeling like we can get somethign whenever we want it for a cheap prices, without understanding where it came from, and the conditions under which it was manufactured. These are just some general ideas that are out there. And they are hard ideas to swallow.Van SThu, 03 Feb 2005 00:27:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/an_interview_with_vincent_j_miller/#comment-1219786The problem is that the problem is so enormous...its not like you could do a couple of quick fixes and have everything be ok. I think it requires submission. People need to submit themselves to a community that isn't determined by consumer tastes. People need to practice REAL hospitality, move towards sharing posessions, and begin to experience the sort of relationships that are formed when one is vulnerable to others. Also, people need to spend much less on luxury items, pay more for essentials (payin extra for local or fair trade goods, so that we feel connected to where the goods come from). The idea is to get away from feeling like we can get somethign whenever we want it for a cheap prices, without understanding where it came from, and the conditions under which it was manufactured. These are just some general ideas that are out there. And they are hard ideas to swallow.Van SThu, 03 Feb 2005 01:27:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_225/#comment-5286397The problem is that the problem is so enormous...its not like you could do a couple of quick fixes and have everything be ok. I think it requires submission. People need to submit themselves to a community that isn't determined by consumer tastes. People need to practice REAL hospitality, move towards sharing posessions, and begin to experience the sort of relationships that are formed when one is vulnerable to others. Also, people need to spend much less on luxury items, pay more for essentials (payin extra for local or fair trade goods, so that we feel connected to where the goods come from). The idea is to get away from feeling like we can get somethign whenever we want it for a cheap prices, without understanding where it came from, and the conditions under which it was manufactured. These are just some general ideas that are out there. And they are hard ideas to swallow.Van SThu, 03 Feb 2005 01:27:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_07/#comment-5286465I heard that he's super lame.Van SMon, 14 Feb 2005 15:28:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/blorge/#comment-1219818I heard that he's super lame.Van SMon, 14 Feb 2005 16:28:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_07/#comment-5286463I heard that he's super lame.Van SMon, 14 Feb 2005 16:28:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6823/#comment-5286469I think you look rather sexy!Van SWed, 16 Feb 2005 06:01:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4014/#comment-5286484Touche.Van SWed, 16 Feb 2005 06:02:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/kingdoms_and_principalities/#comment-1219821I think you look rather sexy!Van SWed, 16 Feb 2005 07:01:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6823/#comment-5286467I think you look rather sexy!Van SWed, 16 Feb 2005 07:01:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_more_perfect_consumer_church/#comment-1219824Touche.Van SWed, 16 Feb 2005 07:02:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4014/#comment-5286472Touche.Van SWed, 16 Feb 2005 07:02:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4014/#comment-5286488Hmmm...I think you are hitting below the belt. I think it is fair game to criticize the way that consumerism has taken some of the power away from the Gospel. I didn't call anyone stupid or try to demean anyone in particular, as you have clearly done to me. I think it you asked any one who knows me if I am an elitist seminary type, then they'd tell you I'm not. I never look down on anyone for not having a formal education--the only thing I concern myself with taking shots at are practices in the church that take the focus off of the power of the Gospel to transform lives. And when we package and soften the Gospel to make it more comfortable, to the point of taking the power out of Scripture, then we are doing a bad thing. Would you disagree with that? Please challenge my ideas, don't question my integrity unless you know me and are willing to do it to my face. I'm pretty sure that's in the Bible.Van SSun, 20 Feb 2005 22:44:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_253/#comment-5286459For the record, since your other posts make it clear that you find fault with my site, I don't think I learned any of the stuff I spout about on this site from Seminary. I don't understand what I wrote that so offends you. This site exists for one primary purposes--to help us to cut through the cultural baggage that holds us back from being the Church for the sake of the World.Van SSun, 20 Feb 2005 22:49:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_more_perfect_consumer_church/#comment-1219828Hmmm...I think you are hitting below the belt. I think it is fair game to criticize the way that consumerism has taken some of the power away from the Gospel. I didn't call anyone stupid or try to demean anyone in particular, as you have clearly done to me. I think it you asked any one who knows me if I am an elitist seminary type, then they'd tell you I'm not. I never look down on anyone for not having a formal education--the only thing I concern myself with taking shots at are practices in the church that take the focus off of the power of the Gospel to transform lives. And when we package and soften the Gospel to make it more comfortable, to the point of taking the power out of Scripture, then we are doing a bad thing. Would you disagree with that? Please challenge my ideas, don't question my integrity unless you know me and are willing to do it to my face. I'm pretty sure that's in the Bible.Van SSun, 20 Feb 2005 23:44:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4014/#comment-5286476Hmmm...I think you are hitting below the belt. I think it is fair game to criticize the way that consumerism has taken some of the power away from the Gospel. I didn't call anyone stupid or try to demean anyone in particular, as you have clearly done to me. I think it you asked any one who knows me if I am an elitist seminary type, then they'd tell you I'm not. I never look down on anyone for not having a formal education--the only thing I concern myself with taking shots at are practices in the church that take the focus off of the power of the Gospel to transform lives. And when we package and soften the Gospel to make it more comfortable, to the point of taking the power out of Scripture, then we are doing a bad thing. Would you disagree with that? Please challenge my ideas, don't question my integrity unless you know me and are willing to do it to my face. I'm pretty sure that's in the Bible.Van SSun, 20 Feb 2005 23:44:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/what_is_the_gospel/#comment-1219816For the record, since your other posts make it clear that you find fault with my site, I don't think I learned any of the stuff I spout about on this site from Seminary. I don't understand what I wrote that so offends you. This site exists for one primary purposes--to help us to cut through the cultural baggage that holds us back from being the Church for the sake of the World.Van SSun, 20 Feb 2005 23:49:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_253/#comment-5286455For the record, since your other posts make it clear that you find fault with my site, I don't think I learned any of the stuff I spout about on this site from Seminary. I don't understand what I wrote that so offends you. This site exists for one primary purposes--to help us to cut through the cultural baggage that holds us back from being the Church for the sake of the World.Van SSun, 20 Feb 2005 23:49:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4014/#comment-5286490Fair enough. Perhaps I shouldn't use such humor. But I don't believe that I'm mocking evangelicals--only some of our practices. I am an evangelical, and as an insider I see all sorts of practices that are problematic. So I poke fun at them, so that we can realize that the Church is more than the often troublesome practices that we do on a Sunday. God is working in all sorts of flawed churches. I don't completely reject churches like Willow Creek. Instead, I think that God is working, but I see things that get in the way of a better expression of the Gospel. To me, humor is an exceptible form of critique...not because I want to mock, but because I want to tease. Perhaps the line is too fine and I shouldn't engage in teasing?Van SMon, 21 Feb 2005 15:30:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_more_perfect_consumer_church/#comment-1219830Fair enough. Perhaps I shouldn't use such humor. But I don't believe that I'm mocking evangelicals--only some of our practices. I am an evangelical, and as an insider I see all sorts of practices that are problematic. So I poke fun at them, so that we can realize that the Church is more than the often troublesome practices that we do on a Sunday. God is working in all sorts of flawed churches. I don't completely reject churches like Willow Creek. Instead, I think that God is working, but I see things that get in the way of a better expression of the Gospel. To me, humor is an exceptible form of critique...not because I want to mock, but because I want to tease. Perhaps the line is too fine and I shouldn't engage in teasing?Van SMon, 21 Feb 2005 16:30:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4014/#comment-5286478Fair enough. Perhaps I shouldn't use such humor. But I don't believe that I'm mocking evangelicals--only some of our practices. I am an evangelical, and as an insider I see all sorts of practices that are problematic. So I poke fun at them, so that we can realize that the Church is more than the often troublesome practices that we do on a Sunday. God is working in all sorts of flawed churches. I don't completely reject churches like Willow Creek. Instead, I think that God is working, but I see things that get in the way of a better expression of the Gospel. To me, humor is an exceptible form of critique...not because I want to mock, but because I want to tease. Perhaps the line is too fine and I shouldn't engage in teasing?Van SMon, 21 Feb 2005 16:30:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2415/#comment-5294405I'm glad! Any thoughts about potential implications?Van SFri, 25 Feb 2005 12:25:23 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/classic_jm_psalm_1_the_law_and_the_missional_church/#comment-1310342I'm glad! Any thoughts about potential implications?Van SFri, 25 Feb 2005 13:25:23 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2415/#comment-5294379I'm glad! Any thoughts about potential implications?Van SFri, 25 Feb 2005 13:25:23 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_67/#comment-5286511Some of this is ok. The problem become when we structure church and define church in such a way as a "come to us" sort of thing, instead of a "go to them" sort of thing. I don't think it has to be an either/or sort of deal. However, we must give preference to, and spend more time doing, the "go" instead of spending time and money cultivating an event to which peoplce can comfortably "come."<br></br><br>We can do this by spending energy on equipping our people to share their faith. We can do this by creating ministries that have relationship-building as a goal, rather than on "attractional" programming. We can do this by encouraging a "neighborhood" mentality. By frequenting the same places, and getting to know our neighbors, we are building relationships that we wouldn't naturally make. Just a few thoughts.</br>Van SFri, 25 Feb 2005 23:39:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/stop_inviting_people_to_church/#comment-1219838Some of this is ok. The problem become when we structure church and define church in such a way as a "come to us" sort of thing, instead of a "go to them" sort of thing. I don't think it has to be an either/or sort of deal. However, we must give preference to, and spend more time doing, the "go" instead of spending time and money cultivating an event to which peoplce can comfortably "come."<br><br>We can do this by spending energy on equipping our people to share their faith. We can do this by creating ministries that have relationship-building as a goal, rather than on "attractional" programming. We can do this by encouraging a "neighborhood" mentality. By frequenting the same places, and getting to know our neighbors, we are building relationships that we wouldn't naturally make. Just a few thoughts.Van SSat, 26 Feb 2005 00:39:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_67/#comment-5286502Some of this is ok. The problem become when we structure church and define church in such a way as a "come to us" sort of thing, instead of a "go to them" sort of thing. I don't think it has to be an either/or sort of deal. However, we must give preference to, and spend more time doing, the "go" instead of spending time and money cultivating an event to which peoplce can comfortably "come."<br><br>We can do this by spending energy on equipping our people to share their faith. We can do this by creating ministries that have relationship-building as a goal, rather than on "attractional" programming. We can do this by encouraging a "neighborhood" mentality. By frequenting the same places, and getting to know our neighbors, we are building relationships that we wouldn't naturally make. Just a few thoughts.Van SSat, 26 Feb 2005 00:39:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2415/#comment-5294410Yes, I think I do. I hope I'm not sounding like the Bible isn't important, or that other books can be used by the Spirit to speak into our lives even remotely the way Scripture can. However, the Scripture isn't a magical book. Without the Spirit, it lacks the power to tranform.Van SSun, 27 Feb 2005 11:14:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/classic_jm_psalm_1_the_law_and_the_missional_church/#comment-1310345Yes, I think I do. I hope I'm not sounding like the Bible isn't important, or that other books can be used by the Spirit to speak into our lives even remotely the way Scripture can. However, the Scripture isn't a magical book. Without the Spirit, it lacks the power to tranform.Van SSun, 27 Feb 2005 12:14:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2415/#comment-5294385Yes, I think I do. I hope I'm not sounding like the Bible isn't important, or that other books can be used by the Spirit to speak into our lives even remotely the way Scripture can. However, the Scripture isn't a magical book. Without the Spirit, it lacks the power to tranform.Van SSun, 27 Feb 2005 12:14:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_67/#comment-5286514As someone who enjoys preaching, and thinks of it as an artform that I need to develop, I understand. There is a line that must be carefully guarded, however, between impressing people with packaging, and being skillful. I think it is good for people to recognize that skill and care have been put into our gatherings. However, and I know this sounds very cliche, there has to be an "authentic" quality to it. In other words, I should preach as an act of worship, and as an act that can bring transformation to people's lives...not because I want to impress people and have them dig Missio Dei.Van STue, 01 Mar 2005 07:08:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/stop_inviting_people_to_church/#comment-1219841As someone who enjoys preaching, and thinks of it as an artform that I need to develop, I understand. There is a line that must be carefully guarded, however, between impressing people with packaging, and being skillful. I think it is good for people to recognize that skill and care have been put into our gatherings. However, and I know this sounds very cliche, there has to be an "authentic" quality to it. In other words, I should preach as an act of worship, and as an act that can bring transformation to people's lives...not because I want to impress people and have them dig Missio Dei.Van STue, 01 Mar 2005 08:08:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_67/#comment-5286505As someone who enjoys preaching, and thinks of it as an artform that I need to develop, I understand. There is a line that must be carefully guarded, however, between impressing people with packaging, and being skillful. I think it is good for people to recognize that skill and care have been put into our gatherings. However, and I know this sounds very cliche, there has to be an "authentic" quality to it. In other words, I should preach as an act of worship, and as an act that can bring transformation to people's lives...not because I want to impress people and have them dig Missio Dei.Van STue, 01 Mar 2005 08:08:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2415/#comment-5294416I may have been overstating things a bit (which I tend to do for the sake of effect), but inspiration doesn not demand it. Everything you mentioned that can be accomplished apart from the Spirit can also be accomplished by other documents than the Bible. The Bible is given for salvation, not as a guide to national governments to do good and sound laws. I know alot of people will disagree with me, but that's how I see it. Part of the problem in the world today was that governments started becoming vaguely and partially Judeo-Christian...the CHurch has lost its distictiveness and voice in part because of this. I know I sound a bit catholic or a bit anabaptist in my view that the Bible needs the Church and it nees the Spirit, or it stays only half a document, without the power to speak. To say that the Scripture is inspired in and of itself is an odd notion that doesn't find any real support in Scripture.Van STue, 01 Mar 2005 12:27:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/classic_jm_psalm_1_the_law_and_the_missional_church/#comment-1310348I may have been overstating things a bit (which I tend to do for the sake of effect), but inspiration doesn not demand it. Everything you mentioned that can be accomplished apart from the Spirit can also be accomplished by other documents than the Bible. The Bible is given for salvation, not as a guide to national governments to do good and sound laws. I know alot of people will disagree with me, but that's how I see it. Part of the problem in the world today was that governments started becoming vaguely and partially Judeo-Christian...the CHurch has lost its distictiveness and voice in part because of this. I know I sound a bit catholic or a bit anabaptist in my view that the Bible needs the Church and it nees the Spirit, or it stays only half a document, without the power to speak. To say that the Scripture is inspired in and of itself is an odd notion that doesn't find any real support in Scripture.Van STue, 01 Mar 2005 13:27:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2415/#comment-5294391I may have been overstating things a bit (which I tend to do for the sake of effect), but inspiration doesn not demand it. Everything you mentioned that can be accomplished apart from the Spirit can also be accomplished by other documents than the Bible. The Bible is given for salvation, not as a guide to national governments to do good and sound laws. I know alot of people will disagree with me, but that's how I see it. Part of the problem in the world today was that governments started becoming vaguely and partially Judeo-Christian...the CHurch has lost its distictiveness and voice in part because of this. I know I sound a bit catholic or a bit anabaptist in my view that the Bible needs the Church and it nees the Spirit, or it stays only half a document, without the power to speak. To say that the Scripture is inspired in and of itself is an odd notion that doesn't find any real support in Scripture.Van STue, 01 Mar 2005 13:27:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_001/#comment-5286525GRRRR! Ok, besides what I said AND the ascension of Christ, and also besides Pentecost. Nothing having to do with the events conveyed in the Gospels or Acts...Van SFri, 04 Mar 2005 14:59:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/too_busy_not_to_blog/#comment-1219845GRRRR! Ok, besides what I said AND the ascension of Christ, and also besides Pentecost. Nothing having to do with the events conveyed in the Gospels or Acts...Van SFri, 04 Mar 2005 15:59:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_001/#comment-5286522GRRRR! Ok, besides what I said AND the ascension of Christ, and also besides Pentecost. Nothing having to do with the events conveyed in the Gospels or Acts...Van SFri, 04 Mar 2005 15:59:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_409/#comment-5286608<strong>Pub Gathering</strong><br></br><br>I was going to send a few of you a link to Mission:Think's "Pub Gathering," but then I realized that far more of you might be interested in this than I can think of. It looks to be good discussion and good fellowship. Don't know if I'm available...</br>Van SMon, 14 Mar 2005 12:23:10 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_716/#comment-5286620God bless you and your wife. Do you know if the baby is going to be a boy or a girl?Van STue, 15 Mar 2005 07:45:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_incarnation_eucharist_and_community/#comment-1219867God bless you and your wife. Do you know if the baby is going to be a boy or a girl?Van STue, 15 Mar 2005 08:45:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_716/#comment-5286614God bless you and your wife. Do you know if the baby is going to be a boy or a girl?Van STue, 15 Mar 2005 08:45:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_409/#comment-5286610Of course...Van STue, 15 Mar 2005 13:55:10 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_742/#comment-5286566YES! Now you're thinking like a consumerist!Van STue, 15 Mar 2005 13:59:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_plug_for_the_pub_gathering/#comment-1219863Of course...Van STue, 15 Mar 2005 14:55:10 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_409/#comment-5286605Of course...Van STue, 15 Mar 2005 14:55:10 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_more_perfect_consumer_church_pt_2/#comment-1219855YES! Now you're thinking like a consumerist!Van STue, 15 Mar 2005 14:59:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_742/#comment-5286550YES! Now you're thinking like a consumerist!Van STue, 15 Mar 2005 14:59:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_716/#comment-5286623Not necessarily. I have difficulty with some of the language of the points you've shared. I'm pretty exclusivistic in that I think Jesus is the only way...<br></br><br>"Missional" and "emerging" have their own specific meanings. Often, they are lumped together to generally signify "newfangled" approaches to doing church...a sort of more liberalized evangelicalism. I don't use the words in that way.</br><br></br><br>For me, "emerging" is a broad word used to describe the various original new approaches to understanding and doing church that have seemingly "emerged" at different places (mostly in the west) at roughly the same time. There is a tendency among most of these "emerging" movements to get back to a lost flavor of an older Christianity (a re-emphasis on discipleship or a re-emphasis on sacraments, for example), as well as a fresh emphasis on the ways we can be more relevant to culture. Many of these new emphases have started out of a reaction against the perceived brokenness of typical evangelicalism or the brokenness of the mainline denominations.</br><br></br><br>For many within the emerging movement, this shift has required a change in one's theological understanding of the nature of the church. This is where people begin to draw off of postmodern thought, since many of the problems within the established church have their source in their over-indebtedness to modernist thinking.</br><br></br><br>Some have drawn from "missional" thought. The missional movement started with the inssight that our western culture is now post-Christian, and that we need to treat it as a mission field. This movement understands that the church's mission isn't merely a pragmatic outgrowth of our beliefs, but is based in the belief that God is a missionary. God the Father sent the Son. God the Father and the Son sends the Spirit. God the Father, the Son and the Spirit sends the Church (Matthew 28:18-20; John 20:21; Acts 1:8). We express God's activity to the world. So just as Jesus is the fullness of God embodied in a human being, the missional church follows Jesus? model, emboying the fullness of God as a new way of being human for the sake of the world. This theological approach resists the notion that the church is merely an institution that exists to get people saved, but puts a new importance on the nature and function of the church. The church doesn't DO mission. The church IS mission. We are part of God's expression of saving love to the world. We participate in the Trinity's work.</br><br></br><br>What both of these ideas look like in practice is up for debate. But these ideas of "missional" and "emergence" are challenging the assumptions of what it means to be the church.</br>Van SSat, 19 Mar 2005 09:41:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_incarnation_eucharist_and_community/#comment-1219870Not necessarily. I have difficulty with some of the language of the points you've shared. I'm pretty exclusivistic in that I think Jesus is the only way...<br><br>"Missional" and "emerging" have their own specific meanings. Often, they are lumped together to generally signify "newfangled" approaches to doing church...a sort of more liberalized evangelicalism. I don't use the words in that way.<br><br>For me, "emerging" is a broad word used to describe the various original new approaches to understanding and doing church that have seemingly "emerged" at different places (mostly in the west) at roughly the same time. There is a tendency among most of these "emerging" movements to get back to a lost flavor of an older Christianity (a re-emphasis on discipleship or a re-emphasis on sacraments, for example), as well as a fresh emphasis on the ways we can be more relevant to culture. Many of these new emphases have started out of a reaction against the perceived brokenness of typical evangelicalism or the brokenness of the mainline denominations.<br><br>For many within the emerging movement, this shift has required a change in one's theological understanding of the nature of the church. This is where people begin to draw off of postmodern thought, since many of the problems within the established church have their source in their over-indebtedness to modernist thinking.<br><br>Some have drawn from "missional" thought. The missional movement started with the inssight that our western culture is now post-Christian, and that we need to treat it as a mission field. This movement understands that the church's mission isn't merely a pragmatic outgrowth of our beliefs, but is based in the belief that God is a missionary. God the Father sent the Son. God the Father and the Son sends the Spirit. God the Father, the Son and the Spirit sends the Church (Matthew 28:18-20; John 20:21; Acts 1:8). We express God's activity to the world. So just as Jesus is the fullness of God embodied in a human being, the missional church follows Jesus? model, emboying the fullness of God as a new way of being human for the sake of the world. This theological approach resists the notion that the church is merely an institution that exists to get people saved, but puts a new importance on the nature and function of the church. The church doesn't DO mission. The church IS mission. We are part of God's expression of saving love to the world. We participate in the Trinity's work.<br><br>What both of these ideas look like in practice is up for debate. But these ideas of "missional" and "emergence" are challenging the assumptions of what it means to be the church.Van SSat, 19 Mar 2005 10:41:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_716/#comment-5286617Not necessarily. I have difficulty with some of the language of the points you've shared. I'm pretty exclusivistic in that I think Jesus is the only way...<br><br>"Missional" and "emerging" have their own specific meanings. Often, they are lumped together to generally signify "newfangled" approaches to doing church...a sort of more liberalized evangelicalism. I don't use the words in that way.<br><br>For me, "emerging" is a broad word used to describe the various original new approaches to understanding and doing church that have seemingly "emerged" at different places (mostly in the west) at roughly the same time. There is a tendency among most of these "emerging" movements to get back to a lost flavor of an older Christianity (a re-emphasis on discipleship or a re-emphasis on sacraments, for example), as well as a fresh emphasis on the ways we can be more relevant to culture. Many of these new emphases have started out of a reaction against the perceived brokenness of typical evangelicalism or the brokenness of the mainline denominations.<br><br>For many within the emerging movement, this shift has required a change in one's theological understanding of the nature of the church. This is where people begin to draw off of postmodern thought, since many of the problems within the established church have their source in their over-indebtedness to modernist thinking.<br><br>Some have drawn from "missional" thought. The missional movement started with the inssight that our western culture is now post-Christian, and that we need to treat it as a mission field. This movement understands that the church's mission isn't merely a pragmatic outgrowth of our beliefs, but is based in the belief that God is a missionary. God the Father sent the Son. God the Father and the Son sends the Spirit. God the Father, the Son and the Spirit sends the Church (Matthew 28:18-20; John 20:21; Acts 1:8). We express God's activity to the world. So just as Jesus is the fullness of God embodied in a human being, the missional church follows Jesus? model, emboying the fullness of God as a new way of being human for the sake of the world. This theological approach resists the notion that the church is merely an institution that exists to get people saved, but puts a new importance on the nature and function of the church. The church doesn't DO mission. The church IS mission. We are part of God's expression of saving love to the world. We participate in the Trinity's work.<br><br>What both of these ideas look like in practice is up for debate. But these ideas of "missional" and "emergence" are challenging the assumptions of what it means to be the church.Van SSat, 19 Mar 2005 10:41:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_409/#comment-5286612Usually, we have a guest come and share for 10 minutes to get the ball rolling, and then the discussion pretty much flows from there without much guidance. If any guidance is needed, usually I'm the one to give it.<br></br><br>This month's guest hasn't been determined yet. I asked Greg Boyd, but he can't come until this summer, when we'll discuss politics again, since that is a topic he's passionate about.</br>Van SMon, 21 Mar 2005 08:33:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_plug_for_the_pub_gathering/#comment-1219865Usually, we have a guest come and share for 10 minutes to get the ball rolling, and then the discussion pretty much flows from there without much guidance. If any guidance is needed, usually I'm the one to give it.<br><br>This month's guest hasn't been determined yet. I asked Greg Boyd, but he can't come until this summer, when we'll discuss politics again, since that is a topic he's passionate about.Van SMon, 21 Mar 2005 09:33:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_409/#comment-5286607Usually, we have a guest come and share for 10 minutes to get the ball rolling, and then the discussion pretty much flows from there without much guidance. If any guidance is needed, usually I'm the one to give it.<br><br>This month's guest hasn't been determined yet. I asked Greg Boyd, but he can't come until this summer, when we'll discuss politics again, since that is a topic he's passionate about.Van SMon, 21 Mar 2005 09:33:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_72/#comment-5286628He he he! I wear a pair of Doc Martin's that were given to me 5 years ago, and last night I looked into the "free ipod" scheme that is floating around the internet...so I secretly DO long for an ipod!Van SMon, 28 Mar 2005 06:34:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_00/#comment-5285213I've read the book, and I think it's great, but haven't come up with any blogable thoughts yet.Van SMon, 28 Mar 2005 06:36:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/clarifying_my_position/#comment-1219873He he he! I wear a pair of Doc Martin's that were given to me 5 years ago, and last night I looked into the "free ipod" scheme that is floating around the internet...so I secretly DO long for an ipod!Van SMon, 28 Mar 2005 07:34:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_72/#comment-5286626He he he! I wear a pair of Doc Martin's that were given to me 5 years ago, and last night I looked into the "free ipod" scheme that is floating around the internet...so I secretly DO long for an ipod!Van SMon, 28 Mar 2005 07:34:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_goal_of_mission/#comment-1219561I've read the book, and I think it's great, but haven't come up with any blogable thoughts yet.Van SMon, 28 Mar 2005 07:36:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_00/#comment-5285204I've read the book, and I think it's great, but haven't come up with any blogable thoughts yet.Van SMon, 28 Mar 2005 07:36:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_957/#comment-5286639:oVan SWed, 30 Mar 2005 11:05:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/restraining_the_gospel/#comment-1219877:oVan SWed, 30 Mar 2005 12:05:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_957/#comment-5286633:oVan SWed, 30 Mar 2005 12:05:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/classic_jm_psalm_1_the_law_and_the_missional_church/#comment-1310351But I do say what the Law is...it is the Spirit. The Spirit speaks to the community. The Old Testament community needed the Prophets and Priests to mediate the will of God. Passages like Psalm 1 and 119 are still helpful and essential because we can still learn about God from them. It is just that our relationship to the Law is more intense, since we have a more direct relationship with the Lawgiver. We now, as Scripture says, follow the Law of Christ or the Law of the Spirit, which don't contridict the Old Covenant...no they fulfill and absorb it, since now our relationship with YHWH is direct.Van SSun, 03 Apr 2005 14:19:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2415/#comment-5294397But I do say what the Law is...it is the Spirit. The Spirit speaks to the community. The Old Testament community needed the Prophets and Priests to mediate the will of God. Passages like Psalm 1 and 119 are still helpful and essential because we can still learn about God from them. It is just that our relationship to the Law is more intense, since we have a more direct relationship with the Lawgiver. We now, as Scripture says, follow the Law of Christ or the Law of the Spirit, which don't contridict the Old Covenant...no they fulfill and absorb it, since now our relationship with YHWH is direct.Van SSun, 03 Apr 2005 14:19:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2415/#comment-5294422But I do say what the Law is...it is the Spirit. The Spirit speaks to the community. The Old Testament community needed the Prophets and Priests to mediate the will of God. Passages like Psalm 1 and 119 are still helpful and essential because we can still learn about God from them. It is just that our relationship to the Law is more intense, since we have a more direct relationship with the Lawgiver. We now, as Scripture says, follow the Law of Christ or the Law of the Spirit, which don't contridict the Old Covenant...no they fulfill and absorb it, since now our relationship with YHWH is direct.Van SSun, 03 Apr 2005 14:19:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_quote_from_hybels/#comment-1219886I guess I wasn't clear enough. My point is that their experiences will be worthless because no one else can mirror their process. In other words, the way they arrive at at multiethnicity will be fundamentally unduplicateable. I am glad they are moving in the right direction. Where they come from doesn't destroy the good they can do now. However, it is difficult to take them seriously as a guide in this area, since they made the change after amassing great resources and clout, and they made the change in such a way that only mega-churches can duplicate their process.<br><br>So, my statement of their example being worthless is in regards to their contribution to church systems implementation, not in regards to their example being one worthy of emulation.Van SMon, 04 Apr 2005 12:24:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_112/#comment-5286648I guess I wasn't clear enough. My point is that their experiences will be worthless because no one else can mirror their process. In other words, the way they arrive at at multiethnicity will be fundamentally unduplicateable. I am glad they are moving in the right direction. Where they come from doesn't destroy the good they can do now. However, it is difficult to take them seriously as a guide in this area, since they made the change after amassing great resources and clout, and they made the change in such a way that only mega-churches can duplicate their process.<br><br>So, my statement of their example being worthless is in regards to their contribution to church systems implementation, not in regards to their example being one worthy of emulation.Van SMon, 04 Apr 2005 12:24:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_112/#comment-5286657I guess I wasn't clear enough. My point is that their experiences will be worthless because no one else can mirror their process. In other words, the way they arrive at at multiethnicity will be fundamentally unduplicateable. I am glad they are moving in the right direction. Where they come from doesn't destroy the good they can do now. However, it is difficult to take them seriously as a guide in this area, since they made the change after amassing great resources and clout, and they made the change in such a way that only mega-churches can duplicate their process.<br></br><br>So, my statement of their example being worthless is in regards to their contribution to church systems implementation, not in regards to their example being one worthy of emulation.</br>Van SMon, 04 Apr 2005 12:24:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_quote_from_hybels/#comment-1219889Will, please read my clarification. By the way, I don't consider myself emergent. I am pretty dang evangelical.Van STue, 05 Apr 2005 17:36:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_112/#comment-5286651Will, please read my clarification. By the way, I don't consider myself emergent. I am pretty dang evangelical.Van STue, 05 Apr 2005 17:36:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_112/#comment-5286662Will, please read my clarification. By the way, I don't consider myself emergent. I am pretty dang evangelical.Van STue, 05 Apr 2005 17:36:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/chris_the_kingdom_and_jim_wallis/#comment-1219899We do support women in leadership, and there are women involved in almost every sort of key decision made at Missio Dei. However, there aren't women involved in most of our teaching ministry (like sermons, and house group teaching). If any women in Missio Dei wanted to teach, they'd be fully encouraged to do so. In my house group, it is usually one of two women who teach when it isn't me teaching.<br><br>The whole issue is a systemic problem that isn't easily addressed. We have more men involved in teaching roles, because we have a number of men who've gone to seminary or studied theology in college. Women are culturally discouraged from pursuing these paths. I've publically encouraged women to be involved in anything they'd like to be involved with. And I could perhaps encourage them more. But I can't make a woman be involved in some area of ministry they don't want to be involved with.Van SThu, 14 Apr 2005 13:04:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_507/#comment-5286681We do support women in leadership, and there are women involved in almost every sort of key decision made at Missio Dei. However, there aren't women involved in most of our teaching ministry (like sermons, and house group teaching). If any women in Missio Dei wanted to teach, they'd be fully encouraged to do so. In my house group, it is usually one of two women who teach when it isn't me teaching.<br><br>The whole issue is a systemic problem that isn't easily addressed. We have more men involved in teaching roles, because we have a number of men who've gone to seminary or studied theology in college. Women are culturally discouraged from pursuing these paths. I've publically encouraged women to be involved in anything they'd like to be involved with. And I could perhaps encourage them more. But I can't make a woman be involved in some area of ministry they don't want to be involved with.Van SThu, 14 Apr 2005 13:04:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_507/#comment-5286714We do support women in leadership, and there are women involved in almost every sort of key decision made at Missio Dei. However, there aren't women involved in most of our teaching ministry (like sermons, and house group teaching). If any women in Missio Dei wanted to teach, they'd be fully encouraged to do so. In my house group, it is usually one of two women who teach when it isn't me teaching.<br></br><br>The whole issue is a systemic problem that isn't easily addressed. We have more men involved in teaching roles, because we have a number of men who've gone to seminary or studied theology in college. Women are culturally discouraged from pursuing these paths. I've publically encouraged women to be involved in anything they'd like to be involved with. And I could perhaps encourage them more. But I can't make a woman be involved in some area of ministry they don't want to be involved with.</br>Van SThu, 14 Apr 2005 13:04:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/chris_the_kingdom_and_jim_wallis/#comment-1219901That is indeed true. I've tried to get Jen to blog, but I think she feels intimidated by blogging.Van SThu, 14 Apr 2005 17:07:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_507/#comment-5286683That is indeed true. I've tried to get Jen to blog, but I think she feels intimidated by blogging.Van SThu, 14 Apr 2005 17:07:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_507/#comment-5286716That is indeed true. I've tried to get Jen to blog, but I think she feels intimidated by blogging.Van SThu, 14 Apr 2005 17:07:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/chris_the_kingdom_and_jim_wallis/#comment-1219903We don't make every decision by congregational vote, nor do we have a leadership team making all the decisions. Some decisions are made by everyone who wants to be involved, others are made by specific groups of interested parties. I'll maybe blog about that some other time.<br><br>Regarding forcing men to lead...My point is that men are culturally conditioned to put themselves out there as leaders, and are much more likely to get involved in leadership. Women in general need to be encouraged to see themselves as potential leaders, and leadership in general has to be redefined.<br><br>I don't think our seminarians are disproportionately involved in decisionmaking, but they are involved heavily in the teaching stuff. I don't sense any sense of intimidation from anyone. I started my education relatively late, and was involved in ministry leadership for a few years before I even went to college, so I have a decent sense of when people feel overwhelmed by scholarliness.<br><br>Having said that, I think you may be jumping a bit to conclusions about our church. We might not have a very strong representation of women in our teaching ministry, but we haven't just passively resigned ourselves to that reality. We are coming from the evangelical tradition, and there is a freakishly small percentage of women involved in teaching or leadership. Women aren't encouraged to develop their gifts in these areas. All we can do is encourage everyone in our congregation to explore their gifts and hope that everyone is reparented beyond the systematic stiffling of women.Van SThu, 14 Apr 2005 22:50:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_507/#comment-5286685We don't make every decision by congregational vote, nor do we have a leadership team making all the decisions. Some decisions are made by everyone who wants to be involved, others are made by specific groups of interested parties. I'll maybe blog about that some other time.<br><br>Regarding forcing men to lead...My point is that men are culturally conditioned to put themselves out there as leaders, and are much more likely to get involved in leadership. Women in general need to be encouraged to see themselves as potential leaders, and leadership in general has to be redefined.<br><br>I don't think our seminarians are disproportionately involved in decisionmaking, but they are involved heavily in the teaching stuff. I don't sense any sense of intimidation from anyone. I started my education relatively late, and was involved in ministry leadership for a few years before I even went to college, so I have a decent sense of when people feel overwhelmed by scholarliness.<br><br>Having said that, I think you may be jumping a bit to conclusions about our church. We might not have a very strong representation of women in our teaching ministry, but we haven't just passively resigned ourselves to that reality. We are coming from the evangelical tradition, and there is a freakishly small percentage of women involved in teaching or leadership. Women aren't encouraged to develop their gifts in these areas. All we can do is encourage everyone in our congregation to explore their gifts and hope that everyone is reparented beyond the systematic stiffling of women.Van SThu, 14 Apr 2005 22:50:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_507/#comment-5286718We don't make every decision by congregational vote, nor do we have a leadership team making all the decisions. Some decisions are made by everyone who wants to be involved, others are made by specific groups of interested parties. I'll maybe blog about that some other time.<br></br><br>Regarding forcing men to lead...My point is that men are culturally conditioned to put themselves out there as leaders, and are much more likely to get involved in leadership. Women in general need to be encouraged to see themselves as potential leaders, and leadership in general has to be redefined.</br><br></br><br>I don't think our seminarians are disproportionately involved in decisionmaking, but they are involved heavily in the teaching stuff. I don't sense any sense of intimidation from anyone. I started my education relatively late, and was involved in ministry leadership for a few years before I even went to college, so I have a decent sense of when people feel overwhelmed by scholarliness.</br><br></br><br>Having said that, I think you may be jumping a bit to conclusions about our church. We might not have a very strong representation of women in our teaching ministry, but we haven't just passively resigned ourselves to that reality. We are coming from the evangelical tradition, and there is a freakishly small percentage of women involved in teaching or leadership. Women aren't encouraged to develop their gifts in these areas. All we can do is encourage everyone in our congregation to explore their gifts and hope that everyone is reparented beyond the systematic stiffling of women.</br>Van SThu, 14 Apr 2005 22:50:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/chris_the_kingdom_and_jim_wallis/#comment-1219905Yeah, sorry if I sounded defensive. It is hard to read the emotions and thoughts behind text. It is definitely a limited medium. I do worry sometimes that Missio Dei will end up getting stuck in some sort of rut where people end up feeling stiffled. I really hope that we're able to be a place that really reflects God's heart.Van SFri, 15 Apr 2005 01:20:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_507/#comment-5286687Yeah, sorry if I sounded defensive. It is hard to read the emotions and thoughts behind text. It is definitely a limited medium. I do worry sometimes that Missio Dei will end up getting stuck in some sort of rut where people end up feeling stiffled. I really hope that we're able to be a place that really reflects God's heart.Van SFri, 15 Apr 2005 01:20:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_507/#comment-5286720Yeah, sorry if I sounded defensive. It is hard to read the emotions and thoughts behind text. It is definitely a limited medium. I do worry sometimes that Missio Dei will end up getting stuck in some sort of rut where people end up feeling stiffled. I really hope that we're able to be a place that really reflects God's heart.Van SFri, 15 Apr 2005 01:20:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/article_in_quodlibet_journal/#comment-1219931Yeah, it was a class paper my first year at seminary. Have no worries!Van SFri, 15 Apr 2005 11:57:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9076/#comment-5286750Yeah, it was a class paper my first year at seminary. Have no worries!Van SFri, 15 Apr 2005 11:57:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9076/#comment-5286755Yeah, it was a class paper my first year at seminary. Have no worries!Van SFri, 15 Apr 2005 11:57:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/article_in_quodlibet_journal/#comment-1219933Sure.Van SSat, 16 Apr 2005 02:31:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9076/#comment-5286752Sure.Van SSat, 16 Apr 2005 02:31:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9076/#comment-5286757Sure.Van SSat, 16 Apr 2005 02:31:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/call_me_crazy_but8230_my_response_to_emergent8217s_latest_press_release/#comment-1220033Graham, if there were a clearer distinction, it would help. Here in the states especially there isn't a clear distinction. Emergent (the organization) says that it is just one conversation, but they are the center around which all other conversations seem to happen in this country. If Emergent were still called "Terra Nova" and there were other strong and recognizable organizations out there, it wouldn't be a big deal.Van STue, 14 Jun 2005 14:14:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_525/#comment-5286984Graham, if there were a clearer distinction, it would help. Here in the states especially there isn't a clear distinction. Emergent (the organization) says that it is just one conversation, but they are the center around which all other conversations seem to happen in this country. If Emergent were still called "Terra Nova" and there were other strong and recognizable organizations out there, it wouldn't be a big deal.Van STue, 14 Jun 2005 14:14:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_525/#comment-5286991Graham, if there were a clearer distinction, it would help. Here in the states especially there isn't a clear distinction. Emergent (the organization) says that it is just one conversation, but they are the center around which all other conversations seem to happen in this country. If Emergent were still called "Terra Nova" and there were other strong and recognizable organizations out there, it wouldn't be a big deal.Van STue, 14 Jun 2005 14:14:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/call_me_crazy_but8230_my_response_to_emergent8217s_latest_press_release/#comment-1220035I'm glad we're on the same page with this one, Jeff. I was afraid I was over-reacting. I was enouraged to read (on the US emerging blog website) that Doug has similar concerns. They didn't take this latest step lightly. I think it is a mistake, but a redeemable one.Van STue, 14 Jun 2005 21:09:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_525/#comment-5286986I'm glad we're on the same page with this one, Jeff. I was afraid I was over-reacting. I was enouraged to read (on the US emerging blog website) that Doug has similar concerns. They didn't take this latest step lightly. I think it is a mistake, but a redeemable one.Van STue, 14 Jun 2005 21:09:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_525/#comment-5286993I'm glad we're on the same page with this one, Jeff. I was afraid I was over-reacting. I was enouraged to read (on the US emerging blog website) that Doug has similar concerns. They didn't take this latest step lightly. I think it is a mistake, but a redeemable one.Van STue, 14 Jun 2005 21:09:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/confession/#comment-1220097Well said, David. I don't we'll get that community of trust and love as long as the church (at least in my country) builds itself upon the foundation of individual self interest, taste, self-actualization, and consumption. I grow weary of shouting at these societal poisons (among others). I desperately want to be a part of a counter-community that is messy, but loving, struggling, yet liberating, a group that is small yet living the life of the disciple.Van SSun, 03 Jul 2005 12:53:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_173/#comment-5287185Well said, David. I don't we'll get that community of trust and love as long as the church (at least in my country) builds itself upon the foundation of individual self interest, taste, self-actualization, and consumption. I grow weary of shouting at these societal poisons (among others). I desperately want to be a part of a counter-community that is messy, but loving, struggling, yet liberating, a group that is small yet living the life of the disciple.Van SSun, 03 Jul 2005 12:53:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_173/#comment-5287193Well said, David. I don't we'll get that community of trust and love as long as the church (at least in my country) builds itself upon the foundation of individual self interest, taste, self-actualization, and consumption. I grow weary of shouting at these societal poisons (among others). I desperately want to be a part of a counter-community that is messy, but loving, struggling, yet liberating, a group that is small yet living the life of the disciple.Van SSun, 03 Jul 2005 12:53:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_order/#comment-1220173Thanks, Chris. I've had some difficulty with knowing how to lead us forward in this direction in a way that is sensitive to where everyone else in Missio Dei is at. The most recent string of hurt feelings have come about because I was focused on mission so much that I wasn't especially gracious or patient to others at Missio Dei. Any suggestions on how to move in this direction in an inclusive way? Do you understand what I'm getting at?Van SSat, 06 Aug 2005 01:19:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_522/#comment-5287362Thanks, Chris. I've had some difficulty with knowing how to lead us forward in this direction in a way that is sensitive to where everyone else in Missio Dei is at. The most recent string of hurt feelings have come about because I was focused on mission so much that I wasn't especially gracious or patient to others at Missio Dei. Any suggestions on how to move in this direction in an inclusive way? Do you understand what I'm getting at?Van SSat, 06 Aug 2005 01:19:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_522/#comment-5287365Thanks, Chris. I've had some difficulty with knowing how to lead us forward in this direction in a way that is sensitive to where everyone else in Missio Dei is at. The most recent string of hurt feelings have come about because I was focused on mission so much that I wasn't especially gracious or patient to others at Missio Dei. Any suggestions on how to move in this direction in an inclusive way? Do you understand what I'm getting at?Van SSat, 06 Aug 2005 01:19:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/incarnational_practice_1_move_and_observe/#comment-1220179Any suggestions I could give about being incarnational would have to be thought through contextually. I don't think anyone should just take these ideas and just apply them directly to their situation. However, there is a certain universality to the idea that you should overlap your life with the lives of those to whom you are called. If it is flight attendants, then one should become a flight attendant or fly a lot. If it is students, then one has to understand how students live. The more "neighborhoody" your mission, the more applicable this post will be, but there are always ways to be incarnational.Van STue, 09 Aug 2005 09:00:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_371/#comment-5287374Any suggestions I could give about being incarnational would have to be thought through contextually. I don't think anyone should just take these ideas and just apply them directly to their situation. However, there is a certain universality to the idea that you should overlap your life with the lives of those to whom you are called. If it is flight attendants, then one should become a flight attendant or fly a lot. If it is students, then one has to understand how students live. The more "neighborhoody" your mission, the more applicable this post will be, but there are always ways to be incarnational.Van STue, 09 Aug 2005 09:00:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_371/#comment-5287377Any suggestions I could give about being incarnational would have to be thought through contextually. I don't think anyone should just take these ideas and just apply them directly to their situation. However, there is a certain universality to the idea that you should overlap your life with the lives of those to whom you are called. If it is flight attendants, then one should become a flight attendant or fly a lot. If it is students, then one has to understand how students live. The more "neighborhoody" your mission, the more applicable this post will be, but there are always ways to be incarnational.Van STue, 09 Aug 2005 09:00:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_bono_bandwagon/#comment-1220181Thanks Michelle. I think my blog makes me seem more Christ-like than I actually am. It is easier to talk about ideals than it is to live them. I try to live according to my convictions, but things like fear, insecurity, pride, etc. slow me down. But I have hope that the Spirit is working in me and through me.Van STue, 09 Aug 2005 15:44:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_804/#comment-5287379Thanks Michelle. I think my blog makes me seem more Christ-like than I actually am. It is easier to talk about ideals than it is to live them. I try to live according to my convictions, but things like fear, insecurity, pride, etc. slow me down. But I have hope that the Spirit is working in me and through me.Van STue, 09 Aug 2005 15:44:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_804/#comment-5287381Thanks Michelle. I think my blog makes me seem more Christ-like than I actually am. It is easier to talk about ideals than it is to live them. I try to live according to my convictions, but things like fear, insecurity, pride, etc. slow me down. But I have hope that the Spirit is working in me and through me.Van STue, 09 Aug 2005 15:44:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/incarnational_practice_2_practice_strategic_consumerism/#comment-1220183I think it can happen cross-gender, but only carefully. I think it is much easier to focus on people of the same-gender, but if a connection is made accross gender-lines, that is fine. Just be discerning and try to introduce some of your male friends into your newly forming relationship.Van STue, 09 Aug 2005 16:08:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_714/#comment-5287383I think it can happen cross-gender, but only carefully. I think it is much easier to focus on people of the same-gender, but if a connection is made accross gender-lines, that is fine. Just be discerning and try to introduce some of your male friends into your newly forming relationship.Van STue, 09 Aug 2005 16:08:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_714/#comment-5287387I think it can happen cross-gender, but only carefully. I think it is much easier to focus on people of the same-gender, but if a connection is made accross gender-lines, that is fine. Just be discerning and try to introduce some of your male friends into your newly forming relationship.Van STue, 09 Aug 2005 16:08:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/west_bank_leaf_38_bean/#comment-1220188I did! I left a message.Van SWed, 10 Aug 2005 12:00:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_618/#comment-5287392I did! I left a message.Van SWed, 10 Aug 2005 12:00:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_618/#comment-5287395I did! I left a message.Van SWed, 10 Aug 2005 12:00:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/50_most_influential_churches/#comment-1220198There are a number of churches under 2000 that have had a big influence. But it is true that the VERY large churches tend to have large influence. But I think it has more to do with the regional and national attention they get, more than their local attention. Not all of the attention is bad, but it is certainly a mixed bag. I think the fact there is even a list like this tells us alot about American Christianity.Van SFri, 12 Aug 2005 01:34:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4317/#comment-5287417There are a number of churches under 2000 that have had a big influence. But it is true that the VERY large churches tend to have large influence. But I think it has more to do with the regional and national attention they get, more than their local attention. Not all of the attention is bad, but it is certainly a mixed bag. I think the fact there is even a list like this tells us alot about American Christianity.Van SFri, 12 Aug 2005 01:34:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4317/#comment-5287423There are a number of churches under 2000 that have had a big influence. But it is true that the VERY large churches tend to have large influence. But I think it has more to do with the regional and national attention they get, more than their local attention. Not all of the attention is bad, but it is certainly a mixed bag. I think the fact there is even a list like this tells us alot about American Christianity.Van SFri, 12 Aug 2005 01:34:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/incarnational_practice_2_practice_strategic_consumerism/#comment-1220185Hmmm...it certainly isn't the end-all-be-all. But for people who haven't got any confidence about connecting with people, it is a place to start.<br><br>(1) I think the whole point is basing it around meeting people. YOu don't have to buy things to do strategic consumerism...at least not much. (2) If we don't make friends in public places, where else is there? Work and circles of friends. These should be done, to be sure, but where are the equivalents to doing mission in the synagogues and marketplaces? I think cafes, bars, and some bookstores are great connecting places... (3) I don't think we should only consume according to taste. We should hang out in places where we are most likely to connect. (4) I know lots of poor people that spend time in book stores and coffee shops. They just don't buy much. Also, we can practice "strategic consumerism" at libraries. Maybe the word "consumerism" is throwing this all off. I don't think you have to spend much money at all to engage in this stuff. (5) I understand where you're coming from. It certainly isn't a perfect system. And it isn't for everyone. For some it might be a waste of energy (like many introverted people). The basic idea is this:<br><br>Spend time hanging out at places where people spend time hanging out. And then figure out ways to get to know them.<br><br>Unless we try things along these lines, then the concept of neighborhood outreach becomes increasingly difficult. Without connecting with people in common places, we are only left with networks of existing friends and co-workers. That is fine. But for those who would like to engage people in public settings (and more of us are able to do this than we think...which is why I encourage people to give it a shot) it can be a very helpful thing.Van SFri, 12 Aug 2005 02:10:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_714/#comment-5287385Hmmm...it certainly isn't the end-all-be-all. But for people who haven't got any confidence about connecting with people, it is a place to start.<br><br>(1) I think the whole point is basing it around meeting people. YOu don't have to buy things to do strategic consumerism...at least not much. (2) If we don't make friends in public places, where else is there? Work and circles of friends. These should be done, to be sure, but where are the equivalents to doing mission in the synagogues and marketplaces? I think cafes, bars, and some bookstores are great connecting places... (3) I don't think we should only consume according to taste. We should hang out in places where we are most likely to connect. (4) I know lots of poor people that spend time in book stores and coffee shops. They just don't buy much. Also, we can practice "strategic consumerism" at libraries. Maybe the word "consumerism" is throwing this all off. I don't think you have to spend much money at all to engage in this stuff. (5) I understand where you're coming from. It certainly isn't a perfect system. And it isn't for everyone. For some it might be a waste of energy (like many introverted people). The basic idea is this:<br><br>Spend time hanging out at places where people spend time hanging out. And then figure out ways to get to know them.<br><br>Unless we try things along these lines, then the concept of neighborhood outreach becomes increasingly difficult. Without connecting with people in common places, we are only left with networks of existing friends and co-workers. That is fine. But for those who would like to engage people in public settings (and more of us are able to do this than we think...which is why I encourage people to give it a shot) it can be a very helpful thing.Van SFri, 12 Aug 2005 02:10:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_714/#comment-5287389Hmmm...it certainly isn't the end-all-be-all. But for people who haven't got any confidence about connecting with people, it is a place to start.<br></br><br>(1) I think the whole point is basing it around meeting people. YOu don't have to buy things to do strategic consumerism...at least not much. (2) If we don't make friends in public places, where else is there? Work and circles of friends. These should be done, to be sure, but where are the equivalents to doing mission in the synagogues and marketplaces? I think cafes, bars, and some bookstores are great connecting places... (3) I don't think we should only consume according to taste. We should hang out in places where we are most likely to connect. (4) I know lots of poor people that spend time in book stores and coffee shops. They just don't buy much. Also, we can practice "strategic consumerism" at libraries. Maybe the word "consumerism" is throwing this all off. I don't think you have to spend much money at all to engage in this stuff. (5) I understand where you're coming from. It certainly isn't a perfect system. And it isn't for everyone. For some it might be a waste of energy (like many introverted people). The basic idea is this:</br><br></br><br>Spend time hanging out at places where people spend time hanging out. And then figure out ways to get to know them.</br><br></br><br>Unless we try things along these lines, then the concept of neighborhood outreach becomes increasingly difficult. Without connecting with people in common places, we are only left with networks of existing friends and co-workers. That is fine. But for those who would like to engage people in public settings (and more of us are able to do this than we think...which is why I encourage people to give it a shot) it can be a very helpful thing.</br>Van SFri, 12 Aug 2005 02:10:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/from_8220strategic_consumerism8221_to_8220intentional_friend_making8221/#comment-1220204Matthew, I think that there are some centers for meeting people, but they are trickier. Places like community centers, schools, libraries, etc. And I think that getting to know the people who live on your block (or in your cul-de-sac) by throwing backyard grilling parties and whatnot is something that can be helpful.<br><br>Emily...it makes me giggle too.Van SMon, 15 Aug 2005 15:15:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_486/#comment-5287430Matthew, I think that there are some centers for meeting people, but they are trickier. Places like community centers, schools, libraries, etc. And I think that getting to know the people who live on your block (or in your cul-de-sac) by throwing backyard grilling parties and whatnot is something that can be helpful.<br><br>Emily...it makes me giggle too.Van SMon, 15 Aug 2005 15:15:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_486/#comment-5287434Matthew, I think that there are some centers for meeting people, but they are trickier. Places like community centers, schools, libraries, etc. And I think that getting to know the people who live on your block (or in your cul-de-sac) by throwing backyard grilling parties and whatnot is something that can be helpful.<br></br><br>Emily...it makes me giggle too.</br>Van SMon, 15 Aug 2005 15:15:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/incarnational_practice_4_mobilize_discipleship/#comment-1220193Thanks Tschaka...I'll check it out.Van SMon, 15 Aug 2005 15:26:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_230/#comment-5287404Thanks Tschaka...I'll check it out.Van SMon, 15 Aug 2005 15:26:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_230/#comment-5287412Thanks Tschaka...I'll check it out.Van SMon, 15 Aug 2005 15:26:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/incarnational_practice_5_volunteering_instead_of_starting_new_programs/#comment-1220206I agree, Rick. I'm not sure what you are suggesting...Van SMon, 15 Aug 2005 15:45:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_219/#comment-5287436I agree, Rick. I'm not sure what you are suggesting...Van SMon, 15 Aug 2005 15:45:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_219/#comment-5287438I agree, Rick. I'm not sure what you are suggesting...Van SMon, 15 Aug 2005 15:45:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/blogging_fast/#comment-1220209Michelle,<br><br>I'd be glad to answer your questions. Just send email me with anything you'd like to know.Van SMon, 22 Aug 2005 00:23:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_421/#comment-5287446Michelle,<br><br>I'd be glad to answer your questions. Just send email me with anything you'd like to know.Van SMon, 22 Aug 2005 00:23:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_421/#comment-5287450Michelle,<br></br><br>I'd be glad to answer your questions. Just send email me with anything you'd like to know.</br>Van SMon, 22 Aug 2005 00:23:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/breaking_blog_silence_a_lament/#comment-1220218Thanks all for the encouragement.<br><br>Charlie,<br><br>Thanks...I wrote this post this morning, when I was feeling the pain of the events described. Now, at the end of the day, I feel a sense of peace. I've realized that "Augsburg" was a compromise. I feel like what we have set out to do is a real God Thing. It is beyond us. And in order to make the journey easier, I think we went for the easy grab--the short cut: meeting at a local college, with a local newspaper promotion, to get local West Bank people to come to us instead of the slow process of going to them. It is funny that I need to be reminded of the call to be incarnational, since I've pontificated about it on this blog recently.<br><br>It has been a hard year. I realize that a large number of people that have been involved at Missio Dei don't have a passion for incarnational ministry on the West Bank. Some are involved for reasons that have nothing to do with the West Bank and could take it or leave it. But it is where God has sent us. I believe that with all of my heart. The process of getting people engaged in incarnational ministry has been very slow--and so I think we sought to help that along by taking a shortcut. I think God has something else in mind. And I'm begining to realize what it is. This Sunday, as Missio Dei meets to pray, I hope that we are all able to see God's vision for Missio Dei and begin to obediently live it out. And I have great hope that we will.Van SFri, 09 Sep 2005 01:58:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_794/#comment-5287463Thanks all for the encouragement.<br><br>Charlie,<br><br>Thanks...I wrote this post this morning, when I was feeling the pain of the events described. Now, at the end of the day, I feel a sense of peace. I've realized that "Augsburg" was a compromise. I feel like what we have set out to do is a real God Thing. It is beyond us. And in order to make the journey easier, I think we went for the easy grab--the short cut: meeting at a local college, with a local newspaper promotion, to get local West Bank people to come to us instead of the slow process of going to them. It is funny that I need to be reminded of the call to be incarnational, since I've pontificated about it on this blog recently.<br><br>It has been a hard year. I realize that a large number of people that have been involved at Missio Dei don't have a passion for incarnational ministry on the West Bank. Some are involved for reasons that have nothing to do with the West Bank and could take it or leave it. But it is where God has sent us. I believe that with all of my heart. The process of getting people engaged in incarnational ministry has been very slow--and so I think we sought to help that along by taking a shortcut. I think God has something else in mind. And I'm begining to realize what it is. This Sunday, as Missio Dei meets to pray, I hope that we are all able to see God's vision for Missio Dei and begin to obediently live it out. And I have great hope that we will.Van SFri, 09 Sep 2005 01:58:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_794/#comment-5287473Thanks all for the encouragement.<br></br><br>Charlie,</br><br></br><br>Thanks...I wrote this post this morning, when I was feeling the pain of the events described. Now, at the end of the day, I feel a sense of peace. I've realized that "Augsburg" was a compromise. I feel like what we have set out to do is a real God Thing. It is beyond us. And in order to make the journey easier, I think we went for the easy grab--the short cut: meeting at a local college, with a local newspaper promotion, to get local West Bank people to come to us instead of the slow process of going to them. It is funny that I need to be reminded of the call to be incarnational, since I've pontificated about it on this blog recently.</br><br></br><br>It has been a hard year. I realize that a large number of people that have been involved at Missio Dei don't have a passion for incarnational ministry on the West Bank. Some are involved for reasons that have nothing to do with the West Bank and could take it or leave it. But it is where God has sent us. I believe that with all of my heart. The process of getting people engaged in incarnational ministry has been very slow--and so I think we sought to help that along by taking a shortcut. I think God has something else in mind. And I'm begining to realize what it is. This Sunday, as Missio Dei meets to pray, I hope that we are all able to see God's vision for Missio Dei and begin to obediently live it out. And I have great hope that we will.</br>Van SFri, 09 Sep 2005 01:58:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/central_gathering_incarnational_instead_of_attractional/#comment-1220223Richard,<br><br>There is more to it than that. We're about a one-year old church plant with more in common than a shared project. Gatherings are always formulated, from teh begining of the Church, but the trick is to not have them be artificial. A Gathering should be a natural expession of who people are.Van SMon, 12 Sep 2005 21:06:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_821/#comment-5287488Richard,<br><br>There is more to it than that. We're about a one-year old church plant with more in common than a shared project. Gatherings are always formulated, from teh begining of the Church, but the trick is to not have them be artificial. A Gathering should be a natural expession of who people are.Van SMon, 12 Sep 2005 21:06:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_821/#comment-5287508Richard,<br></br><br>There is more to it than that. We're about a one-year old church plant with more in common than a shared project. Gatherings are always formulated, from teh begining of the Church, but the trick is to not have them be artificial. A Gathering should be a natural expession of who people are.</br>Van SMon, 12 Sep 2005 21:06:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/conference_on_christianity_in_a_consumer_culture/#comment-1220233Tim,<br><br>Thanks for pointing that out...it is in Minneapolis. I'll fix the website.Van STue, 13 Sep 2005 09:48:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_749/#comment-5287547Tim,<br><br>Thanks for pointing that out...it is in Minneapolis. I'll fix the website.Van STue, 13 Sep 2005 09:48:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_749/#comment-5287557Tim,<br></br><br>Thanks for pointing that out...it is in Minneapolis. I'll fix the website.</br>Van STue, 13 Sep 2005 09:48:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/central_gathering_incarnational_instead_of_attractional/#comment-1220226Charlie,<br><br>The problem for me wasn't that God wasn't whispering...but that I wasn't able to hear. As much as I've prided myself on being a good ecclesiological thinker, I convinced myself that the picture God had given to me of Christian community living incarnationally couldn't happen unless I "primed the pump" a bit first--by using conventional methods. By the time I realized the mistake, some of the crust had begun to settle in. This Augsburg thing was one last big effort to somehow arrive at incarnational ministry using non-incarnational means. I guess I've been afraid of what it would mean to let go of all the safety of convention--it would mean that our numbers might thin and I'd probably have to get another job. But now I don't care about that. I just want to do the simple thing: meet people where they are at and share the goodness of God with them. There are many many opportunities to do just that on the West Bank.Van STue, 13 Sep 2005 15:23:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_821/#comment-5287494Charlie,<br><br>The problem for me wasn't that God wasn't whispering...but that I wasn't able to hear. As much as I've prided myself on being a good ecclesiological thinker, I convinced myself that the picture God had given to me of Christian community living incarnationally couldn't happen unless I "primed the pump" a bit first--by using conventional methods. By the time I realized the mistake, some of the crust had begun to settle in. This Augsburg thing was one last big effort to somehow arrive at incarnational ministry using non-incarnational means. I guess I've been afraid of what it would mean to let go of all the safety of convention--it would mean that our numbers might thin and I'd probably have to get another job. But now I don't care about that. I just want to do the simple thing: meet people where they are at and share the goodness of God with them. There are many many opportunities to do just that on the West Bank.Van STue, 13 Sep 2005 15:23:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_821/#comment-5287513Charlie,<br></br><br>The problem for me wasn't that God wasn't whispering...but that I wasn't able to hear. As much as I've prided myself on being a good ecclesiological thinker, I convinced myself that the picture God had given to me of Christian community living incarnationally couldn't happen unless I "primed the pump" a bit first--by using conventional methods. By the time I realized the mistake, some of the crust had begun to settle in. This Augsburg thing was one last big effort to somehow arrive at incarnational ministry using non-incarnational means. I guess I've been afraid of what it would mean to let go of all the safety of convention--it would mean that our numbers might thin and I'd probably have to get another job. But now I don't care about that. I just want to do the simple thing: meet people where they are at and share the goodness of God with them. There are many many opportunities to do just that on the West Bank.</br>Van STue, 13 Sep 2005 15:23:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/feedback_on_ecclesiology/#comment-1220251TJ...so in other words, you're influenced by the Quakers :)Van STue, 20 Sep 2005 10:28:44 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_09/#comment-5287621TJ...so in other words, you're influenced by the Quakers :)Van STue, 20 Sep 2005 10:28:44 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_09/#comment-5287656TJ...so in other words, you're influenced by the Quakers :)Van STue, 20 Sep 2005 10:28:44 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/part_timer/#comment-1220260Well, I've raised support from outside (regular practice with BGC church planters). Getting a job would open up some finances for other stuff. Plus, I think it means something to have leadership in churches serving the church without it being their "job."Van SWed, 21 Sep 2005 09:50:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_842/#comment-5287689Well, I've raised support from outside (regular practice with BGC church planters). Getting a job would open up some finances for other stuff. Plus, I think it means something to have leadership in churches serving the church without it being their "job."Van SWed, 21 Sep 2005 09:50:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_842/#comment-5287693Well, I've raised support from outside (regular practice with BGC church planters). Getting a job would open up some finances for other stuff. Plus, I think it means something to have leadership in churches serving the church without it being their "job."Van SWed, 21 Sep 2005 09:50:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/missional_discipleship/#comment-1286550By the way, I was inspired by the examples of InnerChange Minneapolis and the Simple Way in Philadelphia. They both influenced my thinking a great deal. Thanks to both communities.Van SWed, 21 Sep 2005 14:48:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_356/#comment-5287699By the way, I was inspired by the examples of InnerChange Minneapolis and the Simple Way in Philadelphia. They both influenced my thinking a great deal. Thanks to both communities.Van SWed, 21 Sep 2005 14:48:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_356/#comment-5287704By the way, I was inspired by the examples of InnerChange Minneapolis and the Simple Way in Philadelphia. They both influenced my thinking a great deal. Thanks to both communities.Van SWed, 21 Sep 2005 14:48:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/tip_jar/#comment-1286570$14 a month. I know it is sorta cheesy to have "tips" but I don't want to advertise.Van STue, 27 Sep 2005 12:58:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_038/#comment-5287755$14 a month. I know it is sorta cheesy to have "tips" but I don't want to advertise.Van STue, 27 Sep 2005 12:58:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_038/#comment-5287758$14 a month. I know it is sorta cheesy to have "tips" but I don't want to advertise.Van STue, 27 Sep 2005 12:58:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/missional_discipleship/#comment-1286553Sure Graham.Van STue, 27 Sep 2005 13:31:04 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_356/#comment-5287703Sure Graham.Van STue, 27 Sep 2005 13:31:04 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_356/#comment-5287710Sure Graham.Van STue, 27 Sep 2005 13:31:04 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/informing_communities/#comment-1286576Hmmm....a cult...I like the sound of that!<br><br>Nicole...I think the clergy need to find a way to share all of their goodies with the laity so that a church can move to a place where there isn't clergy and laity, but disciplers and disciples...or mentors and apprentices...or whatever other language you want to use. I don't think there is any Scriptural basis whatsoever for a distinction between clergy and lay people.Van SWed, 28 Sep 2005 23:15:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_224/#comment-5287764Hmmm....a cult...I like the sound of that!<br><br>Nicole...I think the clergy need to find a way to share all of their goodies with the laity so that a church can move to a place where there isn't clergy and laity, but disciplers and disciples...or mentors and apprentices...or whatever other language you want to use. I don't think there is any Scriptural basis whatsoever for a distinction between clergy and lay people.Van SWed, 28 Sep 2005 23:15:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_224/#comment-5287776Hmmm....a cult...I like the sound of that!<br></br><br>Nicole...I think the clergy need to find a way to share all of their goodies with the laity so that a church can move to a place where there isn't clergy and laity, but disciplers and disciples...or mentors and apprentices...or whatever other language you want to use. I don't think there is any Scriptural basis whatsoever for a distinction between clergy and lay people.</br>Van SWed, 28 Sep 2005 23:15:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/informing_communities/#comment-1286578True dat, Chris. I think folks like you should find ways of sharing your wisdom and knowledge within the church directly. That is the ideal. But you are right...how can you do that when the only folks that will pay you to share the fruits of your studies are the academic institutions. I suppose that is why you and I both feel the struggle of trying to be active within both educational institutions and the local church, so that we can get a paycheck from the former yet invest our lives in the latter. I think that the balance is a very very difficult one, however. In the end, I hope it is your spiritual progeny--those who are able to, over years, get a good "education" from within the church for free--that are able to help bring greater depth of study into the life of the church.Van SWed, 28 Sep 2005 23:33:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_224/#comment-5287767True dat, Chris. I think folks like you should find ways of sharing your wisdom and knowledge within the church directly. That is the ideal. But you are right...how can you do that when the only folks that will pay you to share the fruits of your studies are the academic institutions. I suppose that is why you and I both feel the struggle of trying to be active within both educational institutions and the local church, so that we can get a paycheck from the former yet invest our lives in the latter. I think that the balance is a very very difficult one, however. In the end, I hope it is your spiritual progeny--those who are able to, over years, get a good "education" from within the church for free--that are able to help bring greater depth of study into the life of the church.Van SWed, 28 Sep 2005 23:33:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_224/#comment-5287778True dat, Chris. I think folks like you should find ways of sharing your wisdom and knowledge within the church directly. That is the ideal. But you are right...how can you do that when the only folks that will pay you to share the fruits of your studies are the academic institutions. I suppose that is why you and I both feel the struggle of trying to be active within both educational institutions and the local church, so that we can get a paycheck from the former yet invest our lives in the latter. I think that the balance is a very very difficult one, however. In the end, I hope it is your spiritual progeny--those who are able to, over years, get a good "education" from within the church for free--that are able to help bring greater depth of study into the life of the church.Van SWed, 28 Sep 2005 23:33:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/informing_communities/#comment-1286582Chris, in some traditions it is a hierarchy rather than a chain...but for most of us, you're right. I don't think that having more people shelling out tens of thousands of dollars is the best approach. Finding ways for those with training to share it within the church is a good approach. If churches thought of themselves more as learning communities and sought ways to promote missional education, I think we'd begin to see a slow shift. The problem is that most churches set the bar for discipleship pretty low. For example, the idea that a Christian should even have a deep familiarity with Scripture isn't nearly as much a priority as it used to be. Part of the problem is that churches hover in basic information and never go deeper...because they don't want to alienate new people. But if we move from an event-centered Christianity to a relationship centered one, and the "learned" folks have relationships for prolonged periods of time with people they are mentoring, then you have a lot of deep education happening within the Church.Van SThu, 29 Sep 2005 15:40:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_224/#comment-5287771Chris, in some traditions it is a hierarchy rather than a chain...but for most of us, you're right. I don't think that having more people shelling out tens of thousands of dollars is the best approach. Finding ways for those with training to share it within the church is a good approach. If churches thought of themselves more as learning communities and sought ways to promote missional education, I think we'd begin to see a slow shift. The problem is that most churches set the bar for discipleship pretty low. For example, the idea that a Christian should even have a deep familiarity with Scripture isn't nearly as much a priority as it used to be. Part of the problem is that churches hover in basic information and never go deeper...because they don't want to alienate new people. But if we move from an event-centered Christianity to a relationship centered one, and the "learned" folks have relationships for prolonged periods of time with people they are mentoring, then you have a lot of deep education happening within the Church.Van SThu, 29 Sep 2005 15:40:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_224/#comment-5287782Chris, in some traditions it is a hierarchy rather than a chain...but for most of us, you're right. I don't think that having more people shelling out tens of thousands of dollars is the best approach. Finding ways for those with training to share it within the church is a good approach. If churches thought of themselves more as learning communities and sought ways to promote missional education, I think we'd begin to see a slow shift. The problem is that most churches set the bar for discipleship pretty low. For example, the idea that a Christian should even have a deep familiarity with Scripture isn't nearly as much a priority as it used to be. Part of the problem is that churches hover in basic information and never go deeper...because they don't want to alienate new people. But if we move from an event-centered Christianity to a relationship centered one, and the "learned" folks have relationships for prolonged periods of time with people they are mentoring, then you have a lot of deep education happening within the Church.Van SThu, 29 Sep 2005 15:40:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/pub_gathering_glimpses_of_the_divine_in_film/#comment-1286593I think the movies that are best able to capture a sense of the divine are movies that are able to expertly explore human darkness. For example, one of my favorite movies is the Shawshank Redemption. In order for us to get a glimpse of redemption via Tim Robbins' character, we are taken through a series of events that stress confinement and wickedness: years in prison for a crime he didn't commit, constantly under the threat of molestation, etc. As we see the character successfully overcome the evil around him, we understand a bit more the nature of hope and the human spirit--faith if you will. I realize that the movie depicts a rather humanistic faith--faith in one's self--but it gives us a glimpse of some sort of divinity, albeit a humanistic one.Van SFri, 30 Sep 2005 11:49:11 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_791/#comment-5287785I think the movies that are best able to capture a sense of the divine are movies that are able to expertly explore human darkness. For example, one of my favorite movies is the Shawshank Redemption. In order for us to get a glimpse of redemption via Tim Robbins' character, we are taken through a series of events that stress confinement and wickedness: years in prison for a crime he didn't commit, constantly under the threat of molestation, etc. As we see the character successfully overcome the evil around him, we understand a bit more the nature of hope and the human spirit--faith if you will. I realize that the movie depicts a rather humanistic faith--faith in one's self--but it gives us a glimpse of some sort of divinity, albeit a humanistic one.Van SFri, 30 Sep 2005 11:49:11 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_791/#comment-5287788I think the movies that are best able to capture a sense of the divine are movies that are able to expertly explore human darkness. For example, one of my favorite movies is the Shawshank Redemption. In order for us to get a glimpse of redemption via Tim Robbins' character, we are taken through a series of events that stress confinement and wickedness: years in prison for a crime he didn't commit, constantly under the threat of molestation, etc. As we see the character successfully overcome the evil around him, we understand a bit more the nature of hope and the human spirit--faith if you will. I realize that the movie depicts a rather humanistic faith--faith in one's self--but it gives us a glimpse of some sort of divinity, albeit a humanistic one.Van SFri, 30 Sep 2005 11:49:11 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/incarnational_practices_on_next_wave/#comment-1286598Good questions...<br><br>Mike, I think the best thing we can do to influence the established church is to do these sorts of things while still attending established churches. I blogged about this sort of thing previously: <a href="http://missionthink.typepad.com/missionthink/2005/07/church_planting.html" rel="nofollow">http://missionthink.typepad.com/missionthink/20...</a><br><br>Gordon, I guess I think we can do church incarnationally WITH a fixed point, but not entirely THROUGH a fixed point. I think having a building can be a great tool for incarnational ministry, but I tend to think stuff has to happen outside of the building too.Van STue, 04 Oct 2005 11:05:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_172/#comment-5287794Good questions...<br><br>Mike, I think the best thing we can do to influence the established church is to do these sorts of things while still attending established churches. I blogged about this sort of thing previously: <a href="http://missionthink.typepad.com/missionthink/2005/07/church_planting.html" rel="nofollow">http://missionthink.typepad.com/missionthink/20...</a><br><br>Gordon, I guess I think we can do church incarnationally WITH a fixed point, but not entirely THROUGH a fixed point. I think having a building can be a great tool for incarnational ministry, but I tend to think stuff has to happen outside of the building too.Van STue, 04 Oct 2005 11:05:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_172/#comment-5287803Good questions...<br></br><br>Mike, I think the best thing we can do to influence the established church is to do these sorts of things while still attending established churches. I blogged about this sort of thing previously: <a href="http://missionthink.typepad.com/missionthink/2005/07/church_planting.html" rel="nofollow">http://missionthink.typepad.com/missionthink/20...</a></br><br></br><br>Gordon, I guess I think we can do church incarnationally WITH a fixed point, but not entirely THROUGH a fixed point. I think having a building can be a great tool for incarnational ministry, but I tend to think stuff has to happen outside of the building too.</br>Van STue, 04 Oct 2005 11:05:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/is_your_church_a_grocery_store_or_a_garden/#comment-1286607Excellent point, Chris!Van STue, 04 Oct 2005 23:10:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_977/#comment-5287811Excellent point, Chris!Van STue, 04 Oct 2005 23:10:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_977/#comment-5287816Excellent point, Chris!Van STue, 04 Oct 2005 23:10:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/incarnational_practices_on_next_wave/#comment-1286601Len, could you elaborate more on the concept of "portfolio" church?Van STue, 04 Oct 2005 23:13:09 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_172/#comment-5287797Len, could you elaborate more on the concept of "portfolio" church?Van STue, 04 Oct 2005 23:13:09 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_172/#comment-5287806Len, could you elaborate more on the concept of "portfolio" church?Van STue, 04 Oct 2005 23:13:09 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/right_versus_left_one_neo_anabaptist8217s_perspective/#comment-1286617Todd--I guess instead of "ecclesial goals" it would be better to say "the mission and aims of the Church." I know that the Kingdom of God and the missio Dei aren't limited to the Church, but it is highly problematic for the Church to use the State as a tool for the furtherance of the evangel.Van SWed, 05 Oct 2005 23:39:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_386/#comment-5287826Todd--I guess instead of "ecclesial goals" it would be better to say "the mission and aims of the Church." I know that the Kingdom of God and the missio Dei aren't limited to the Church, but it is highly problematic for the Church to use the State as a tool for the furtherance of the evangel.Van SWed, 05 Oct 2005 23:39:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_386/#comment-5287847Todd--I guess instead of "ecclesial goals" it would be better to say "the mission and aims of the Church." I know that the Kingdom of God and the missio Dei aren't limited to the Church, but it is highly problematic for the Church to use the State as a tool for the furtherance of the evangel.Van SWed, 05 Oct 2005 23:39:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/right_versus_left_one_neo_anabaptist8217s_perspective/#comment-1286626I'm not for complete extraction from any and all utilization of the Government for Christian aims. I just want us to tease out a theologically reflective approach. I don't reject all uses of the government, but while many on both "sides" are calling for a greater involvement in politics, I think we should be less involved--but at the same time we should be active in more direct ways--like directly relating to the poor and caring for the homeless directly as much as possible as a church, rather than relying upon government to further these goals. I guess the thing that bothers me the most is that reliance.Van STue, 11 Oct 2005 16:45:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_386/#comment-5287837I'm not for complete extraction from any and all utilization of the Government for Christian aims. I just want us to tease out a theologically reflective approach. I don't reject all uses of the government, but while many on both "sides" are calling for a greater involvement in politics, I think we should be less involved--but at the same time we should be active in more direct ways--like directly relating to the poor and caring for the homeless directly as much as possible as a church, rather than relying upon government to further these goals. I guess the thing that bothers me the most is that reliance.Van STue, 11 Oct 2005 16:45:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_386/#comment-5287856I'm not for complete extraction from any and all utilization of the Government for Christian aims. I just want us to tease out a theologically reflective approach. I don't reject all uses of the government, but while many on both "sides" are calling for a greater involvement in politics, I think we should be less involved--but at the same time we should be active in more direct ways--like directly relating to the poor and caring for the homeless directly as much as possible as a church, rather than relying upon government to further these goals. I guess the thing that bothers me the most is that reliance.Van STue, 11 Oct 2005 16:45:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/rebellion_from_within/#comment-1286628Mr. Mouse...I hear the 80's preppy look is the new look for the counter-culture.Van STue, 11 Oct 2005 22:14:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_043/#comment-5287858Mr. Mouse...I hear the 80's preppy look is the new look for the counter-culture.Van STue, 11 Oct 2005 22:14:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_043/#comment-5287880Mr. Mouse...I hear the 80's preppy look is the new look for the counter-culture.Van STue, 11 Oct 2005 22:14:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/rebellion_from_within/#comment-1286634Hmmm...I can hardly be blamed if someone desides to air their angst against punkers. Only one person actually said anything that much against punkers. This blog has lots of readers and we don't all agree. I don't censor people and if you want to address him directly, please do so. I'm not sure why you're upset at me.<br><br>If you read my post, you'll notice that I never say anything negative about anyone. My point wasn't to make fun of people who do counter-cultural things any more than I want to make fun of people who don't. My point is that these things are pretty irrelevant when it comes to the heart of the Gospel, which is the actually counter-cultural thing. The whole point of this post wasn't to say "hey look at punks--gee they are silly." It is to challenge many new churches that are starting up and say "hey, you are definitely exploring some edgier things stylistically, but make sure you focus on what makes us truly distinctive."<br><br>I have really no issue whatsoever with punkers, and it wasn't even punkers I was thinking of. If I was picking on anyone it is people in the emerging church, who upon finding new freedom decide to push boundaries. Unfortunately, they often tie their experience of Church to their new freedoms. I just want to challenge that a bit.Van SThu, 13 Oct 2005 11:20:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_043/#comment-5287864Hmmm...I can hardly be blamed if someone desides to air their angst against punkers. Only one person actually said anything that much against punkers. This blog has lots of readers and we don't all agree. I don't censor people and if you want to address him directly, please do so. I'm not sure why you're upset at me.<br><br>If you read my post, you'll notice that I never say anything negative about anyone. My point wasn't to make fun of people who do counter-cultural things any more than I want to make fun of people who don't. My point is that these things are pretty irrelevant when it comes to the heart of the Gospel, which is the actually counter-cultural thing. The whole point of this post wasn't to say "hey look at punks--gee they are silly." It is to challenge many new churches that are starting up and say "hey, you are definitely exploring some edgier things stylistically, but make sure you focus on what makes us truly distinctive."<br><br>I have really no issue whatsoever with punkers, and it wasn't even punkers I was thinking of. If I was picking on anyone it is people in the emerging church, who upon finding new freedom decide to push boundaries. Unfortunately, they often tie their experience of Church to their new freedoms. I just want to challenge that a bit.Van SThu, 13 Oct 2005 11:20:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_043/#comment-5287886Hmmm...I can hardly be blamed if someone desides to air their angst against punkers. Only one person actually said anything that much against punkers. This blog has lots of readers and we don't all agree. I don't censor people and if you want to address him directly, please do so. I'm not sure why you're upset at me.<br></br><br>If you read my post, you'll notice that I never say anything negative about anyone. My point wasn't to make fun of people who do counter-cultural things any more than I want to make fun of people who don't. My point is that these things are pretty irrelevant when it comes to the heart of the Gospel, which is the actually counter-cultural thing. The whole point of this post wasn't to say "hey look at punks--gee they are silly." It is to challenge many new churches that are starting up and say "hey, you are definitely exploring some edgier things stylistically, but make sure you focus on what makes us truly distinctive."</br><br></br><br>I have really no issue whatsoever with punkers, and it wasn't even punkers I was thinking of. If I was picking on anyone it is people in the emerging church, who upon finding new freedom decide to push boundaries. Unfortunately, they often tie their experience of Church to their new freedoms. I just want to challenge that a bit.</br>Van SThu, 13 Oct 2005 11:20:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/rebellion_from_within/#comment-1286637TJ,<br><br>I'm sorry if I sound condescending. I think you hear me saying something completely other than what I am saying. I don't think that anyone who gets a tatoo or drinks or whatever (I gave these sorts of descriptions arbitrarily anyhow) is silly at all, nor should we try to discern why they have a tattoo or drink or are pierced. My point is that these things are irrelevant to the counter-cultural nature of the Gospel. In all sincerity, I don't think any less of anyone who is piereced (like my brother) or tatooed (like my father or all of my brothers) or who smokes (like everyone in my family except me and my father) or drinks (like me). These things are sincerely irrelevant to me. What bothers me--is when Christians make cultural expressions of counter-culture part of their Christian expression of being part of the Kingdom of God. And this happens. I don't think there is anything condescending whatsoever to ask people who, when experiencing freedom to explore things unconventional, to not equate that to the freedom and edginess that is found in the Kingdom of God. No hard feelings.Van SThu, 13 Oct 2005 20:30:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_043/#comment-5287867TJ,<br><br>I'm sorry if I sound condescending. I think you hear me saying something completely other than what I am saying. I don't think that anyone who gets a tatoo or drinks or whatever (I gave these sorts of descriptions arbitrarily anyhow) is silly at all, nor should we try to discern why they have a tattoo or drink or are pierced. My point is that these things are irrelevant to the counter-cultural nature of the Gospel. In all sincerity, I don't think any less of anyone who is piereced (like my brother) or tatooed (like my father or all of my brothers) or who smokes (like everyone in my family except me and my father) or drinks (like me). These things are sincerely irrelevant to me. What bothers me--is when Christians make cultural expressions of counter-culture part of their Christian expression of being part of the Kingdom of God. And this happens. I don't think there is anything condescending whatsoever to ask people who, when experiencing freedom to explore things unconventional, to not equate that to the freedom and edginess that is found in the Kingdom of God. No hard feelings.Van SThu, 13 Oct 2005 20:30:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_043/#comment-5287889TJ,<br></br><br>I'm sorry if I sound condescending. I think you hear me saying something completely other than what I am saying. I don't think that anyone who gets a tatoo or drinks or whatever (I gave these sorts of descriptions arbitrarily anyhow) is silly at all, nor should we try to discern why they have a tattoo or drink or are pierced. My point is that these things are irrelevant to the counter-cultural nature of the Gospel. In all sincerity, I don't think any less of anyone who is piereced (like my brother) or tatooed (like my father or all of my brothers) or who smokes (like everyone in my family except me and my father) or drinks (like me). These things are sincerely irrelevant to me. What bothers me--is when Christians make cultural expressions of counter-culture part of their Christian expression of being part of the Kingdom of God. And this happens. I don't think there is anything condescending whatsoever to ask people who, when experiencing freedom to explore things unconventional, to not equate that to the freedom and edginess that is found in the Kingdom of God. No hard feelings.</br>Van SThu, 13 Oct 2005 20:30:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/rebellion_from_within/#comment-1286638Just wanted to update:<br><br>TJ and I are friends. Blogging sometimes makes it easy for two people to miscommunicate with each other. We've continued an email dialogue and have worked things out. I think the point that I was trying to make is a good one, but the way I made it wasn't thought out very well and it is easy to see why a punk or the friend of a punk would get a bit irked. It is in situations like this that I am reminded that online dialogue is not the same as a community. My friendship wth TJ in the real world is perhaps the only reason we are able to come to an understanding at all. It is very difficult to know someone's heart without really knowing them.Van SFri, 14 Oct 2005 21:44:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_043/#comment-5287868Just wanted to update:<br><br>TJ and I are friends. Blogging sometimes makes it easy for two people to miscommunicate with each other. We've continued an email dialogue and have worked things out. I think the point that I was trying to make is a good one, but the way I made it wasn't thought out very well and it is easy to see why a punk or the friend of a punk would get a bit irked. It is in situations like this that I am reminded that online dialogue is not the same as a community. My friendship wth TJ in the real world is perhaps the only reason we are able to come to an understanding at all. It is very difficult to know someone's heart without really knowing them.Van SFri, 14 Oct 2005 21:44:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_043/#comment-5287890Just wanted to update:<br></br><br>TJ and I are friends. Blogging sometimes makes it easy for two people to miscommunicate with each other. We've continued an email dialogue and have worked things out. I think the point that I was trying to make is a good one, but the way I made it wasn't thought out very well and it is easy to see why a punk or the friend of a punk would get a bit irked. It is in situations like this that I am reminded that online dialogue is not the same as a community. My friendship wth TJ in the real world is perhaps the only reason we are able to come to an understanding at all. It is very difficult to know someone's heart without really knowing them.</br>Van SFri, 14 Oct 2005 21:44:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/rebellion_from_within/#comment-1286640I'm not sure what point you're making.Van SSat, 15 Oct 2005 01:37:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_043/#comment-5287870I'm not sure what point you're making.Van SSat, 15 Oct 2005 01:37:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_043/#comment-5287892I'm not sure what point you're making.Van SSat, 15 Oct 2005 01:37:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/rebellion_from_within/#comment-1286649I'm sorry that the way things are posted isn't clear. Your reaction was pretty strong, I must say. You seem to be passionate about being free to explore truth without any sort of confines or limitations. Would it be safe to say that you think you are more free than people who follow the Christian path?Van SMon, 17 Oct 2005 07:23:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_043/#comment-5287875I'm sorry that the way things are posted isn't clear. Your reaction was pretty strong, I must say. You seem to be passionate about being free to explore truth without any sort of confines or limitations. Would it be safe to say that you think you are more free than people who follow the Christian path?Van SMon, 17 Oct 2005 07:23:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_043/#comment-5287897I'm sorry that the way things are posted isn't clear. Your reaction was pretty strong, I must say. You seem to be passionate about being free to explore truth without any sort of confines or limitations. Would it be safe to say that you think you are more free than people who follow the Christian path?Van SMon, 17 Oct 2005 07:23:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/from_outcomes_to_marks/#comment-1286657Jeremy,<br><br>Yeah, the "Empirical Indicators" are a good place to look. I have a link to them on the left...I've also blogged about them in the past <a href="http://missionthink.typepad.com/missionthink/2004/12/the_empirical_i.htm" rel="nofollow"> (here)</a>.<br><br>William--it is good to hear of a church really thinking through this stuff...God's blessing to your efforts!<br><br>Question for y'all to consider: what role should right doctrine play in formulating church health? HOw do we articulate this?Van SSun, 23 Oct 2005 12:56:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_748/#comment-5287904Jeremy,<br><br>Yeah, the "Empirical Indicators" are a good place to look. I have a link to them on the left...I've also blogged about them in the past <a href="http://missionthink.typepad.com/missionthink/2004/12/the_empirical_i.htm" rel="nofollow"> (here)</a>.<br><br>William--it is good to hear of a church really thinking through this stuff...God's blessing to your efforts!<br><br>Question for y'all to consider: what role should right doctrine play in formulating church health? HOw do we articulate this?Van SSun, 23 Oct 2005 12:56:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_748/#comment-5287913Jeremy,<br></br><br>Yeah, the "Empirical Indicators" are a good place to look. I have a link to them on the left...I've also blogged about them in the past <a href="http://missionthink.typepad.com/missionthink/2004/12/the_empirical_i.htm" rel="nofollow"> (here)</a>.</br><br></br><br>William--it is good to hear of a church really thinking through this stuff...God's blessing to your efforts!</br><br></br><br>Question for y'all to consider: what role should right doctrine play in formulating church health? HOw do we articulate this?</br>Van SSun, 23 Oct 2005 12:56:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/mixing_religion_and_politics/#comment-1286663I agree. I don't think Willimon goes far enough, but I like the tension that he is dealing with. I feel like he raises all the right sorts of questions and then goes "see how tricky it is!"Van SWed, 26 Oct 2005 08:44:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_231/#comment-5287921I agree. I don't think Willimon goes far enough, but I like the tension that he is dealing with. I feel like he raises all the right sorts of questions and then goes "see how tricky it is!"Van SWed, 26 Oct 2005 08:44:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_231/#comment-5287923I agree. I don't think Willimon goes far enough, but I like the tension that he is dealing with. I feel like he raises all the right sorts of questions and then goes "see how tricky it is!"Van SWed, 26 Oct 2005 08:44:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_748/#comment-5287916Aaron,<br></br><br>I didn't offer a complete list...I only offered a few examples to get discussion flowing. I'd agree that conversions are important. But I'd want to value them in a way that isn't dependent upon numbers. Numbers are a very tricky thing to base a church culture upon and are often misleading. In one context a few converts is huge, in other contexts many converts may be normal...but each church has different contexts. Furthermore some ministries go for "easy converts" while others try to make disciples. All these sort of things need to be factored in as well.</br>Van SMon, 31 Oct 2005 16:55:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/from_outcomes_to_marks/#comment-1286660Aaron,<br><br>I didn't offer a complete list...I only offered a few examples to get discussion flowing. I'd agree that conversions are important. But I'd want to value them in a way that isn't dependent upon numbers. Numbers are a very tricky thing to base a church culture upon and are often misleading. In one context a few converts is huge, in other contexts many converts may be normal...but each church has different contexts. Furthermore some ministries go for "easy converts" while others try to make disciples. All these sort of things need to be factored in as well.Van SMon, 31 Oct 2005 17:55:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_748/#comment-5287907Aaron,<br><br>I didn't offer a complete list...I only offered a few examples to get discussion flowing. I'd agree that conversions are important. But I'd want to value them in a way that isn't dependent upon numbers. Numbers are a very tricky thing to base a church culture upon and are often misleading. In one context a few converts is huge, in other contexts many converts may be normal...but each church has different contexts. Furthermore some ministries go for "easy converts" while others try to make disciples. All these sort of things need to be factored in as well.Van SMon, 31 Oct 2005 17:55:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_036/#comment-5288494It went well. I think we all realized the far-reaching effects of consumerism on our ecclesiology.Van SSun, 12 Mar 2006 09:55:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/twin_cities_emergent_gathering_on_thursday_night/#comment-1287105It went well. I think we all realized the far-reaching effects of consumerism on our ecclesiology.Van SSun, 12 Mar 2006 10:55:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_036/#comment-5288490It went well. I think we all realized the far-reaching effects of consumerism on our ecclesiology.Van SSun, 12 Mar 2006 10:55:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_890/#comment-5288529Thanks em,<br></br><br>I made this post because someone from Mr. Berkshire's organization, Minnesota Athiests, will be joining us for an upcoming <a href="http://www.pubgathering.com" rel="nofollow">Pub Gathering</a>. I'm interested in hearing how people respond to this sort of critique.</br>Van SSun, 19 Mar 2006 14:34:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/8220god_loves_you8221_a_few_reasons_to_doubt_the_existence_of_a_loving_god/#comment-1287123Thanks em,<br><br>I made this post because someone from Mr. Berkshire's organization, Minnesota Athiests, will be joining us for an upcoming <a href="http://www.pubgathering.com" rel="nofollow">Pub Gathering</a>. I'm interested in hearing how people respond to this sort of critique.Van SSun, 19 Mar 2006 15:34:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_890/#comment-5288510Thanks em,<br><br>I made this post because someone from Mr. Berkshire's organization, Minnesota Athiests, will be joining us for an upcoming <a href="http://www.pubgathering.com" rel="nofollow">Pub Gathering</a>. I'm interested in hearing how people respond to this sort of critique.Van SSun, 19 Mar 2006 15:34:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_376/#comment-5288504<strong>Reducancy And Communities Of Resistance</strong><br></br><br>One of my frustrations these days is how much crap is being published. There are many good books being published, but some are just terrible. Even people I respect have published books that are poorly written, with half-developed ideas. I sometimes...</br>Van SMon, 20 Mar 2006 21:01:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_118/#comment-5288503You caught me Gregg! :0Van STue, 21 Mar 2006 07:32:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/ecclesial_grievance_1_employment_over_conviction/#comment-1287113You caught me Gregg! :0Van STue, 21 Mar 2006 08:32:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_118/#comment-5288498You caught me Gregg! :0Van STue, 21 Mar 2006 08:32:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5323/#comment-5288565Tim,<br></br><br>Could you say some more about that?</br>Van STue, 28 Mar 2006 10:44:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/david_fitch8217s_five_theological_issues_in_emerging_church/#comment-1287157Tim,<br><br>Could you say some more about that?Van STue, 28 Mar 2006 11:44:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5323/#comment-5288560Tim,<br><br>Could you say some more about that?Van STue, 28 Mar 2006 11:44:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/come_on_ring_those_bells/#comment-1287245I love beauty, but I think that the highly formalized beauty we're talking about isn't all its cracked up to be. I know that bells are nifty, but $5,000,000 is a big deal. There is a fine line between being artful and living in opulent luxury. We can praise the virtues of aesthetics and beauty, but why is it that aesthetics is so frequently available to those with means? Is an old woman's knit afgan really less beautiful than a stained glass window? And when that afghan covers a child at night, does glorify God any less?Van STue, 04 Apr 2006 15:25:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_961/#comment-5288578I love beauty, but I think that the highly formalized beauty we're talking about isn't all its cracked up to be. I know that bells are nifty, but $5,000,000 is a big deal. There is a fine line between being artful and living in opulent luxury. We can praise the virtues of aesthetics and beauty, but why is it that aesthetics is so frequently available to those with means? Is an old woman's knit afgan really less beautiful than a stained glass window? And when that afghan covers a child at night, does glorify God any less?Van STue, 04 Apr 2006 15:25:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_961/#comment-5288599I love beauty, but I think that the highly formalized beauty we're talking about isn't all its cracked up to be. I know that bells are nifty, but $5,000,000 is a big deal. There is a fine line between being artful and living in opulent luxury. We can praise the virtues of aesthetics and beauty, but why is it that aesthetics is so frequently available to those with means? Is an old woman's knit afgan really less beautiful than a stained glass window? And when that afghan covers a child at night, does glorify God any less?Van STue, 04 Apr 2006 15:25:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/come_on_ring_those_bells/#comment-1287253I understand that perspective, I really do. But I think it is deeply flawed. Many people have been saved at Benny Hinn meetings, and many have been moved by his teachings, but that doesn't validate his teachings. Validating something purely by its outcomes is flawed thinking and can be used to justify anything. The only argument that I am willing to accept for spending such a huge amount of money for a pure luxury is that God led the community to spend that money. It is quite possible that, in this case, that was exactly what happened. I bring it as an example because often times in the lives of churches and individuals, we squander the gifts of God on inconsequential things.<br><br>Many may question whether or not it is right for me to stand in judgement over a church like this. I do not question hearts, and I do not even question this church per se. But if we cannot evaluate some of the deeds of churches than we have no way of authentically being prophetic within the Church as a whole.Van SSun, 09 Apr 2006 21:50:34 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_961/#comment-5288586I understand that perspective, I really do. But I think it is deeply flawed. Many people have been saved at Benny Hinn meetings, and many have been moved by his teachings, but that doesn't validate his teachings. Validating something purely by its outcomes is flawed thinking and can be used to justify anything. The only argument that I am willing to accept for spending such a huge amount of money for a pure luxury is that God led the community to spend that money. It is quite possible that, in this case, that was exactly what happened. I bring it as an example because often times in the lives of churches and individuals, we squander the gifts of God on inconsequential things.<br><br>Many may question whether or not it is right for me to stand in judgement over a church like this. I do not question hearts, and I do not even question this church per se. But if we cannot evaluate some of the deeds of churches than we have no way of authentically being prophetic within the Church as a whole.Van SSun, 09 Apr 2006 21:50:34 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_961/#comment-5288606I understand that perspective, I really do. But I think it is deeply flawed. Many people have been saved at Benny Hinn meetings, and many have been moved by his teachings, but that doesn't validate his teachings. Validating something purely by its outcomes is flawed thinking and can be used to justify anything. The only argument that I am willing to accept for spending such a huge amount of money for a pure luxury is that God led the community to spend that money. It is quite possible that, in this case, that was exactly what happened. I bring it as an example because often times in the lives of churches and individuals, we squander the gifts of God on inconsequential things.<br></br><br>Many may question whether or not it is right for me to stand in judgement over a church like this. I do not question hearts, and I do not even question this church per se. But if we cannot evaluate some of the deeds of churches than we have no way of authentically being prophetic within the Church as a whole.</br>Van SSun, 09 Apr 2006 21:50:34 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/come_on_ring_those_bells/#comment-1287257Sure...we do need to pick battles. But I think it is interesting that you find Benny Hinn extreme but $5 million on decor not extreme.<br><br>The Church in the U.S.A. spends vast wealth to feed its edifice complex...yet the 2/3 world is struggling to meet basic human needs. I think that the way we use our wealth is a pressing issue and worthy of picking as a battle, don't you?Van SMon, 10 Apr 2006 10:03:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_961/#comment-5288589Sure...we do need to pick battles. But I think it is interesting that you find Benny Hinn extreme but $5 million on decor not extreme.<br><br>The Church in the U.S.A. spends vast wealth to feed its edifice complex...yet the 2/3 world is struggling to meet basic human needs. I think that the way we use our wealth is a pressing issue and worthy of picking as a battle, don't you?Van SMon, 10 Apr 2006 10:03:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_961/#comment-5288608Sure...we do need to pick battles. But I think it is interesting that you find Benny Hinn extreme but $5 million on decor not extreme.<br></br><br>The Church in the U.S.A. spends vast wealth to feed its edifice complex...yet the 2/3 world is struggling to meet basic human needs. I think that the way we use our wealth is a pressing issue and worthy of picking as a battle, don't you?</br>Van SMon, 10 Apr 2006 10:03:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/come_on_ring_those_bells/#comment-1287261I agree...I could say more, but I don't want to spiral any deeper than I already have :)Van SMon, 10 Apr 2006 21:58:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_961/#comment-5288593I agree...I could say more, but I don't want to spiral any deeper than I already have :)Van SMon, 10 Apr 2006 21:58:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_961/#comment-5288610I agree...I could say more, but I don't want to spiral any deeper than I already have :)Van SMon, 10 Apr 2006 21:58:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/funding_a_matthew_25_church/#comment-1287268You're right, Michael. And thre are indeed some suburban churches that helpd the poor and needy among them. It is just sad that we assume that care for the needy has been outsourced. Having said this, however, it isn't as though there are a lot of funds flowing to Marie Sandvig Center or Caring and Sharing Hands.Van SFri, 14 Apr 2006 09:08:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_929/#comment-5288627You're right, Michael. And thre are indeed some suburban churches that helpd the poor and needy among them. It is just sad that we assume that care for the needy has been outsourced. Having said this, however, it isn't as though there are a lot of funds flowing to Marie Sandvig Center or Caring and Sharing Hands.Van SFri, 14 Apr 2006 09:08:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_929/#comment-5288632You're right, Michael. And thre are indeed some suburban churches that helpd the poor and needy among them. It is just sad that we assume that care for the needy has been outsourced. Having said this, however, it isn't as though there are a lot of funds flowing to Marie Sandvig Center or Caring and Sharing Hands.Van SFri, 14 Apr 2006 09:08:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/looking_ahead/#comment-1287504I don't think so. It costs 700 bucks, so I doubt any Missio Dei folk or any of my pals would be up for it.Van SThu, 04 May 2006 15:19:10 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6367/#comment-5288681I don't think so. It costs 700 bucks, so I doubt any Missio Dei folk or any of my pals would be up for it.Van SThu, 04 May 2006 15:19:10 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6367/#comment-5288683I don't think so. It costs 700 bucks, so I doubt any Missio Dei folk or any of my pals would be up for it.Van SThu, 04 May 2006 15:19:10 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/planning_ahead/#comment-1287506I most certainly will keep you in the loop! I hope that you'll have lots to contribute to the remonking the church conference if we decide to go in that direction! I've asked Kevin Rains if he'd be open to hosting it at Vineyard Central...he is pretty open, but we'll see how things unfold.Van SThu, 04 May 2006 18:19:18 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0486/#comment-5288685I most certainly will keep you in the loop! I hope that you'll have lots to contribute to the remonking the church conference if we decide to go in that direction! I've asked Kevin Rains if he'd be open to hosting it at Vineyard Central...he is pretty open, but we'll see how things unfold.Van SThu, 04 May 2006 18:19:18 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0486/#comment-5288689I most certainly will keep you in the loop! I hope that you'll have lots to contribute to the remonking the church conference if we decide to go in that direction! I've asked Kevin Rains if he'd be open to hosting it at Vineyard Central...he is pretty open, but we'll see how things unfold.Van SThu, 04 May 2006 18:19:18 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_transformational_leadership_of_prophets_a_rant/#comment-1287520I have no problems with leadership. I just have a problem with the way we think leadership should look like. Our modern categories for leadership are inadequate and too results oriented. That is my critique. Leadership is complex and varied. We should be more nuanced and pneumatological in our understanding of church leadership. I hope I don't come off as ripping on leadership...that wasn't my intent.Van SWed, 17 May 2006 11:06:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4546/#comment-5288713I have no problems with leadership. I just have a problem with the way we think leadership should look like. Our modern categories for leadership are inadequate and too results oriented. That is my critique. Leadership is complex and varied. We should be more nuanced and pneumatological in our understanding of church leadership. I hope I don't come off as ripping on leadership...that wasn't my intent.Van SWed, 17 May 2006 11:06:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4546/#comment-5288723I have no problems with leadership. I just have a problem with the way we think leadership should look like. Our modern categories for leadership are inadequate and too results oriented. That is my critique. Leadership is complex and varied. We should be more nuanced and pneumatological in our understanding of church leadership. I hope I don't come off as ripping on leadership...that wasn't my intent.Van SWed, 17 May 2006 11:06:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/audio_files_from_consumerism_conference/#comment-1287528Hmmm...that stinks. I'll try putting up a fresh set of files.Van SSun, 21 May 2006 10:44:44 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_353/#comment-5288737Hmmm...that stinks. I'll try putting up a fresh set of files.Van SSun, 21 May 2006 10:44:44 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_353/#comment-5288743Hmmm...that stinks. I'll try putting up a fresh set of files.Van SSun, 21 May 2006 10:44:44 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/some_thoughts_i_had_on_the_way_home_from_hard_times_on_sunday/#comment-1287543Thanks Joseph.Van STue, 30 May 2006 13:55:23 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1494/#comment-5288757Thanks Joseph.Van STue, 30 May 2006 13:55:23 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1494/#comment-5288760Thanks Joseph.Van STue, 30 May 2006 13:55:23 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/false_god_2_comfort_and_personal_happiness/#comment-1287549Totally agree. Doing the opposite isn't good--especially with the suffering issue. We shouldn't ignore suffering nor yearn for it.<br><br>I did a series a while back called "discipleship in America" that was similar and I found that talking about the problem AND the solution in the same post was too much. I'm hoping to offer how we can adequately be "communities of resistance" to these false gods in the future.Van SThu, 01 Jun 2006 14:53:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_114/#comment-5288769Totally agree. Doing the opposite isn't good--especially with the suffering issue. We shouldn't ignore suffering nor yearn for it.<br><br>I did a series a while back called "discipleship in America" that was similar and I found that talking about the problem AND the solution in the same post was too much. I'm hoping to offer how we can adequately be "communities of resistance" to these false gods in the future.Van SThu, 01 Jun 2006 14:53:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_114/#comment-5288772Totally agree. Doing the opposite isn't good--especially with the suffering issue. We shouldn't ignore suffering nor yearn for it.<br></br><br>I did a series a while back called "discipleship in America" that was similar and I found that talking about the problem AND the solution in the same post was too much. I'm hoping to offer how we can adequately be "communities of resistance" to these false gods in the future.</br>Van SThu, 01 Jun 2006 14:53:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/reenvisioning_the_church_a_review/#comment-1287551We did talk a bit about house churches. Unfortunately, Thorsten had a class going concurrently with our class, so that rule that out this time. If there is a next time, then I'm definitely thinking of inviting Thorsten to come share some thoughts.Van SSat, 03 Jun 2006 00:09:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_3006/#comment-5288778We did talk a bit about house churches. Unfortunately, Thorsten had a class going concurrently with our class, so that rule that out this time. If there is a next time, then I'm definitely thinking of inviting Thorsten to come share some thoughts.Van SSat, 03 Jun 2006 00:09:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_3006/#comment-5288789We did talk a bit about house churches. Unfortunately, Thorsten had a class going concurrently with our class, so that rule that out this time. If there is a next time, then I'm definitely thinking of inviting Thorsten to come share some thoughts.Van SSat, 03 Jun 2006 00:09:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/reenvisioning_the_church_a_review/#comment-1287554Aw, shucks.Van SSat, 10 Jun 2006 12:40:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_3006/#comment-5288784Aw, shucks.Van SSat, 10 Jun 2006 12:40:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_3006/#comment-5288795Aw, shucks.Van SSat, 10 Jun 2006 12:40:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/false_god_3_choice/#comment-1287576I think you're starting with a faulty premise: that I'm attacking choice. I'm not attacking choice (nor the end of suffering in my earlier post). I'm attacking the worship of choice. I'm attacking the way it has been deified.Van SSun, 11 Jun 2006 22:46:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_419/#comment-5288810I think you're starting with a faulty premise: that I'm attacking choice. I'm not attacking choice (nor the end of suffering in my earlier post). I'm attacking the worship of choice. I'm attacking the way it has been deified.Van SSun, 11 Jun 2006 22:46:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_419/#comment-5288814I think you're starting with a faulty premise: that I'm attacking choice. I'm not attacking choice (nor the end of suffering in my earlier post). I'm attacking the worship of choice. I'm attacking the way it has been deified.Van SSun, 11 Jun 2006 22:46:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/egikashun/#comment-1287568Why thank you sir. I feel more divine already!Van STue, 13 Jun 2006 14:18:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_291/#comment-5288803Why thank you sir. I feel more divine already!Van STue, 13 Jun 2006 14:18:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_291/#comment-5288805Why thank you sir. I feel more divine already!Van STue, 13 Jun 2006 14:18:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/thoughts_from_my_time_at_the_monastery/#comment-1287583Well, there are lots of examples for this. A classic example is civil rights activism during the 1960s in the south. Contemporary examples would be to block developers from demolishing low income homes that were lost to "eminent domain" or for missionaries to go to boycotted countries (like Cuba). For folks in the peace tradition it could mean going into areas of war to try to stop violence or go to protest unlawfully at prisons to stop executions or abortion clinics to hinder abortions. Civil disobedience could also involve not paying immoral taxes. For the most part, I feel it is good to stand in the way of violence, injustice, or oppression wherever it can be found, using peaceful resistance.Van STue, 11 Jul 2006 00:27:34 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_767/#comment-5288832Well, there are lots of examples for this. A classic example is civil rights activism during the 1960s in the south. Contemporary examples would be to block developers from demolishing low income homes that were lost to "eminent domain" or for missionaries to go to boycotted countries (like Cuba). For folks in the peace tradition it could mean going into areas of war to try to stop violence or go to protest unlawfully at prisons to stop executions or abortion clinics to hinder abortions. Civil disobedience could also involve not paying immoral taxes. For the most part, I feel it is good to stand in the way of violence, injustice, or oppression wherever it can be found, using peaceful resistance.Van STue, 11 Jul 2006 00:27:34 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_767/#comment-5288838Well, there are lots of examples for this. A classic example is civil rights activism during the 1960s in the south. Contemporary examples would be to block developers from demolishing low income homes that were lost to "eminent domain" or for missionaries to go to boycotted countries (like Cuba). For folks in the peace tradition it could mean going into areas of war to try to stop violence or go to protest unlawfully at prisons to stop executions or abortion clinics to hinder abortions. Civil disobedience could also involve not paying immoral taxes. For the most part, I feel it is good to stand in the way of violence, injustice, or oppression wherever it can be found, using peaceful resistance.Van STue, 11 Jul 2006 00:27:34 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_quick_reflection_on_submission_in_democracies/#comment-1287627Blorge...which post is it? I can't find it.<br><br>Espiritu, great question. I think you have to start with the handful of folks that can agree together to mutual submission. This is why I think there is a growing number of "new monastics." Monasticism requires submission. I think if someone were to come into a community of mutual-submitters and experienced hospitality and shared in their way of life it would be compelling. But it requires that we give up on the notion of large churches who attract folks with good sermons and good programming in order to really experiment in ways of having "deep" community. There are many communities in the US--some have actually grown to comparatively large sizes--that foster such submission and have become places of healing and hospitality.Van SThu, 13 Jul 2006 16:03:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7989/#comment-5288846Blorge...which post is it? I can't find it.<br><br>Espiritu, great question. I think you have to start with the handful of folks that can agree together to mutual submission. This is why I think there is a growing number of "new monastics." Monasticism requires submission. I think if someone were to come into a community of mutual-submitters and experienced hospitality and shared in their way of life it would be compelling. But it requires that we give up on the notion of large churches who attract folks with good sermons and good programming in order to really experiment in ways of having "deep" community. There are many communities in the US--some have actually grown to comparatively large sizes--that foster such submission and have become places of healing and hospitality.Van SThu, 13 Jul 2006 16:03:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7989/#comment-5288850Blorge...which post is it? I can't find it.<br></br><br>Espiritu, great question. I think you have to start with the handful of folks that can agree together to mutual submission. This is why I think there is a growing number of "new monastics." Monasticism requires submission. I think if someone were to come into a community of mutual-submitters and experienced hospitality and shared in their way of life it would be compelling. But it requires that we give up on the notion of large churches who attract folks with good sermons and good programming in order to really experiment in ways of having "deep" community. There are many communities in the US--some have actually grown to comparatively large sizes--that foster such submission and have become places of healing and hospitality.</br>Van SThu, 13 Jul 2006 16:03:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_quick_reflection_on_submission_in_democracies/#comment-1287621Usually, these communities of mutual submission are communal in nature:<br><br>Church of the Sojourners<br>Reba Place<br>Rutba House Community<br>the simple way Community<br>Bruderhof Communities<br><br>Missio Dei is trying to follow these examples. That is why we've spent the last 9 months working towards shared spiritual experiences, a shared commitment to the West Bank, and a shared "rule" of faith.Van SFri, 14 Jul 2006 11:23:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7989/#comment-5288842Usually, these communities of mutual submission are communal in nature:<br><br>Church of the Sojourners<br>Reba Place<br>Rutba House Community<br>the simple way Community<br>Bruderhof Communities<br><br>Missio Dei is trying to follow these examples. That is why we've spent the last 9 months working towards shared spiritual experiences, a shared commitment to the West Bank, and a shared "rule" of faith.Van SFri, 14 Jul 2006 11:23:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7989/#comment-5288852Usually, these communities of mutual submission are communal in nature:<br></br><br>Church of the Sojourners</br><br>Reba Place</br><br>Rutba House Community</br><br>the simple way Community</br><br>Bruderhof Communities</br><br></br><br>Missio Dei is trying to follow these examples. That is why we've spent the last 9 months working towards shared spiritual experiences, a shared commitment to the West Bank, and a shared "rule" of faith.</br>Van SFri, 14 Jul 2006 11:23:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/star_tribune_article_new_monastics/#comment-1287638Thanks dude. This year will be a very important one for Missio Dei.<br><br>Pray for me if you think of it. Next week I'm going in to talk to Greg Bourgond about the future possibilities of teaching "ML250." In the near future I'd also like to explore the possibility of doing additional adjunct work. Since I've already done at least some adjunct work and since I'll hopefully begin doctoral work in the next year or so, Dr. Bourgond might be willing to entertain me handling classes like discipleship or evangelism...or perhaps other new classes like ML250. I'm planning on starting a Th.D. in 2007 at the University of South Africa (something integrating North American missiology and Theological ethics).<br><br>Teaching is something that energizes me. I care a lot about the Church--my passion for the Church is behind almost everything I do. If I can do a couple classes a year, it would be very rewarding (and would provide some nice supplemental income).Van SSat, 15 Jul 2006 11:51:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_115/#comment-5288864Thanks dude. This year will be a very important one for Missio Dei.<br><br>Pray for me if you think of it. Next week I'm going in to talk to Greg Bourgond about the future possibilities of teaching "ML250." In the near future I'd also like to explore the possibility of doing additional adjunct work. Since I've already done at least some adjunct work and since I'll hopefully begin doctoral work in the next year or so, Dr. Bourgond might be willing to entertain me handling classes like discipleship or evangelism...or perhaps other new classes like ML250. I'm planning on starting a Th.D. in 2007 at the University of South Africa (something integrating North American missiology and Theological ethics).<br><br>Teaching is something that energizes me. I care a lot about the Church--my passion for the Church is behind almost everything I do. If I can do a couple classes a year, it would be very rewarding (and would provide some nice supplemental income).Van SSat, 15 Jul 2006 11:51:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_115/#comment-5288866Thanks dude. This year will be a very important one for Missio Dei.<br></br><br>Pray for me if you think of it. Next week I'm going in to talk to Greg Bourgond about the future possibilities of teaching "ML250." In the near future I'd also like to explore the possibility of doing additional adjunct work. Since I've already done at least some adjunct work and since I'll hopefully begin doctoral work in the next year or so, Dr. Bourgond might be willing to entertain me handling classes like discipleship or evangelism...or perhaps other new classes like ML250. I'm planning on starting a Th.D. in 2007 at the University of South Africa (something integrating North American missiology and Theological ethics).</br><br></br><br>Teaching is something that energizes me. I care a lot about the Church--my passion for the Church is behind almost everything I do. If I can do a couple classes a year, it would be very rewarding (and would provide some nice supplemental income).</br>Van SSat, 15 Jul 2006 11:51:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/star_tribune_article_new_monastics/#comment-1287636Tis true, tis true.Van SWed, 19 Jul 2006 10:54:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_115/#comment-5288862Tis true, tis true.Van SWed, 19 Jul 2006 10:54:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_115/#comment-5288870Tis true, tis true.Van SWed, 19 Jul 2006 10:54:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/classic_jm_crisis_in_generica/#comment-1310358It is possible. As an urban minister, it is what I hope for. But to be honest, most folks that i know in the suburbs (including pastors) are only superficially effected (there are some exceptions to be sure). Many in the burbs care more about social justice and diversity and whatnot, but most of this influence hasn't affected real change.Van SThu, 20 Jul 2006 12:28:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294449It is possible. As an urban minister, it is what I hope for. But to be honest, most folks that i know in the suburbs (including pastors) are only superficially effected (there are some exceptions to be sure). Many in the burbs care more about social justice and diversity and whatnot, but most of this influence hasn't affected real change.Van SThu, 20 Jul 2006 12:28:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294501It is possible. As an urban minister, it is what I hope for. But to be honest, most folks that i know in the suburbs (including pastors) are only superficially effected (there are some exceptions to be sure). Many in the burbs care more about social justice and diversity and whatnot, but most of this influence hasn't affected real change.Van SThu, 20 Jul 2006 12:28:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/classic_jm_crisis_in_generica/#comment-1310364I'm sorry you feel that way. Sure my post doesn't make the suburbs sound good--but that is the point. My point is that burbs are every bit as problematic and broken as everywhere else.<br><br>I don't think suburbs are worse than any other place. My post attempts to capture the frustration many emerging pastors have for the burbs...those who leave the burbs to do ministry in the city. My point is that the burbs have all the brokeness and need for missional leaders to work there...no need to flee "generica" for the urban core.Van SMon, 24 Jul 2006 15:53:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294460I'm sorry you feel that way. Sure my post doesn't make the suburbs sound good--but that is the point. My point is that burbs are every bit as problematic and broken as everywhere else.<br><br>I don't think suburbs are worse than any other place. My post attempts to capture the frustration many emerging pastors have for the burbs...those who leave the burbs to do ministry in the city. My point is that the burbs have all the brokeness and need for missional leaders to work there...no need to flee "generica" for the urban core.Van SMon, 24 Jul 2006 15:53:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294514I'm sorry you feel that way. Sure my post doesn't make the suburbs sound good--but that is the point. My point is that burbs are every bit as problematic and broken as everywhere else.<br></br><br>I don't think suburbs are worse than any other place. My post attempts to capture the frustration many emerging pastors have for the burbs...those who leave the burbs to do ministry in the city. My point is that the burbs have all the brokeness and need for missional leaders to work there...no need to flee "generica" for the urban core.</br>Van SMon, 24 Jul 2006 15:53:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/classic_jm_crisis_in_generica/#comment-1310366<p>I agree. God calls us to faithfulness. That is what I am advocating. I can understand why my post offends you. But most of the folks who read my blog have adopted a certain mindset...a mindset that has encouraged folks to draw a line between missional emerging churches (the emerging church is much more than a trend...it is an attempt to recover and celebrate the very sort of things that you affirm) and "compromised" suburban churches. My post is an attempt to show the need for missional churches in the burbs. The reason I single out the suburbs is that 95% of my blog readers don't need to be told that urban areas are in need of missional churches. They need to be reminded that the suburbs have need of the sort of churches they long to see. </p><br><p>Having said that, I want to challenge you: is it really possible to challenge these sorts of these things in the suburbs primarily through the gathering around Word and Sacrament? I realize that our ecclesiologies come into tension here. I am anabaptistic in my pursuasion. Coming together around the table needs to move beyond symbol into a grittier reality. I think that centralized gatherings and buildings are over-rated and can even hold the church back from its missional calling. The challenge of the suburbs is that you have to work hard to meet and fellowship with people--in their own contexts and homes--across boundaries.<br></p>Van SMon, 24 Jul 2006 22:42:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294464<p>I agree. God calls us to faithfulness. That is what I am advocating. I can understand why my post offends you. But most of the folks who read my blog have adopted a certain mindset...a mindset that has encouraged folks to draw a line between missional emerging churches (the emerging church is much more than a trend...it is an attempt to recover and celebrate the very sort of things that you affirm) and "compromised" suburban churches. My post is an attempt to show the need for missional churches in the burbs. The reason I single out the suburbs is that 95% of my blog readers don't need to be told that urban areas are in need of missional churches. They need to be reminded that the suburbs have need of the sort of churches they long to see. </p><br><p>Having said that, I want to challenge you: is it really possible to challenge these sorts of these things in the suburbs primarily through the gathering around Word and Sacrament? I realize that our ecclesiologies come into tension here. I am anabaptistic in my pursuasion. Coming together around the table needs to move beyond symbol into a grittier reality. I think that centralized gatherings and buildings are over-rated and can even hold the church back from its missional calling. The challenge of the suburbs is that you have to work hard to meet and fellowship with people--in their own contexts and homes--across boundaries.<br></p>Van SMon, 24 Jul 2006 22:42:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294518<p>I agree. God calls us to faithfulness. That is what I am advocating. I can understand why my post offends you. But most of the folks who read my blog have adopted a certain mindset...a mindset that has encouraged folks to draw a line between missional emerging churches (the emerging church is much more than a trend...it is an attempt to recover and celebrate the very sort of things that you affirm) and "compromised" suburban churches. My post is an attempt to show the need for missional churches in the burbs. The reason I single out the suburbs is that 95% of my blog readers don't need to be told that urban areas are in need of missional churches. They need to be reminded that the suburbs have need of the sort of churches they long to see. </p><br><p>Having said that, I want to challenge you: is it really possible to challenge these sorts of these things in the suburbs primarily through the gathering around Word and Sacrament? I realize that our ecclesiologies come into tension here. I am anabaptistic in my pursuasion. Coming together around the table needs to move beyond symbol into a grittier reality. I think that centralized gatherings and buildings are over-rated and can even hold the church back from its missional calling. The challenge of the suburbs is that you have to work hard to meet and fellowship with people--in their own contexts and homes--across boundaries.</p></br><br></br>Van SMon, 24 Jul 2006 22:42:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/patron_saints8230/#comment-1287732"Nitsuj"...if that IS your real name ;)<br><br>Do you had these to your list because you feel that have something to teach us, or because it is kinda funny to include "heretics" to the list. By the way, I just learned that Northumbria Community actually celebrates Pelagius on the Feast Day of St. Augustine. These days, some find it cool to be pro-pelagius. I'm not on that page, however. I do find Marcion to be an interesting character. I wonder what he actually taught. All we really seem to know is the anti-Marcion position.Van STue, 25 Jul 2006 13:01:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_648/#comment-5288882"Nitsuj"...if that IS your real name ;)<br><br>Do you had these to your list because you feel that have something to teach us, or because it is kinda funny to include "heretics" to the list. By the way, I just learned that Northumbria Community actually celebrates Pelagius on the Feast Day of St. Augustine. These days, some find it cool to be pro-pelagius. I'm not on that page, however. I do find Marcion to be an interesting character. I wonder what he actually taught. All we really seem to know is the anti-Marcion position.Van STue, 25 Jul 2006 13:01:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_648/#comment-5288894"Nitsuj"...if that IS your real name ;)<br></br><br>Do you had these to your list because you feel that have something to teach us, or because it is kinda funny to include "heretics" to the list. By the way, I just learned that Northumbria Community actually celebrates Pelagius on the Feast Day of St. Augustine. These days, some find it cool to be pro-pelagius. I'm not on that page, however. I do find Marcion to be an interesting character. I wonder what he actually taught. All we really seem to know is the anti-Marcion position.</br>Van STue, 25 Jul 2006 13:01:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/classic_jm_crisis_in_generica/#comment-1310368<p>CP--</p><br><p>I'm an anabaptist, so I realize we have different views of the Lord's Table. The unity of the Lord's Table is derivative of the unity of the Lord's body, not the other way around. By no means is it mere symbol--the word "mere" somehow belittles the entire anabaptistic tradition. But Communion is Holy because we, the Body of Christ, are Holy. We don't meet the presence of Christ in the bread, but in one another, and Jesus shares his meal with us.<br><br>I wrote an article about it here: </p><br><p>http://www.allelon.org/articles/article.cfm?id=167&#38;page=1</p><br><p>My point is this: more is required that proclaimation and sacrament. If this weren't true, then we all wouldn't be so enamored with St. Francis, who took Christ's healing presence into the world around him, instead of expecting the broken in the world to come to the Table.<br></p>Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 11:24:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294468<p>CP--</p><br><p>I'm an anabaptist, so I realize we have different views of the Lord's Table. The unity of the Lord's Table is derivative of the unity of the Lord's body, not the other way around. By no means is it mere symbol--the word "mere" somehow belittles the entire anabaptistic tradition. But Communion is Holy because we, the Body of Christ, are Holy. We don't meet the presence of Christ in the bread, but in one another, and Jesus shares his meal with us.<br><br>I wrote an article about it here: </p><br><p>http://www.allelon.org/articles/article.cfm?id=167&#38;page=1</p><br><p>My point is this: more is required that proclaimation and sacrament. If this weren't true, then we all wouldn't be so enamored with St. Francis, who took Christ's healing presence into the world around him, instead of expecting the broken in the world to come to the Table.<br></p>Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 11:24:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294522<p>CP--</p><br><p>I'm an anabaptist, so I realize we have different views of the Lord's Table. The unity of the Lord's Table is derivative of the unity of the Lord's body, not the other way around. By no means is it mere symbol--the word "mere" somehow belittles the entire anabaptistic tradition. But Communion is Holy because we, the Body of Christ, are Holy. We don't meet the presence of Christ in the bread, but in one another, and Jesus shares his meal with us.</p></br><br></br><br>I wrote an article about it here: </br><br><p>http://www.allelon.org/articles/article.cfm?id=167&#38;page=1</p></br><br><p>My point is this: more is required that proclaimation and sacrament. If this weren't true, then we all wouldn't be so enamored with St. Francis, who took Christ's healing presence into the world around him, instead of expecting the broken in the world to come to the Table.</p></br><br></br>Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 11:24:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/patron_saints8230/#comment-1287734I'd venture that Marcion was less of a heretic. Perhaps not. It is so hard to tell, since the victors win the right to write history.<br><br>While I don't agree with any of the folks you listed, I do think that it is a shame that Augustine wasn't a bit more Pelagian. In other words, "heretics" and their opponents often present polarities that are both errors, though the orthodox may have been in error :)Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 12:21:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_648/#comment-5288884I'd venture that Marcion was less of a heretic. Perhaps not. It is so hard to tell, since the victors win the right to write history.<br><br>While I don't agree with any of the folks you listed, I do think that it is a shame that Augustine wasn't a bit more Pelagian. In other words, "heretics" and their opponents often present polarities that are both errors, though the orthodox may have been in error :)Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 12:21:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_648/#comment-5288896I'd venture that Marcion was less of a heretic. Perhaps not. It is so hard to tell, since the victors win the right to write history.<br></br><br>While I don't agree with any of the folks you listed, I do think that it is a shame that Augustine wasn't a bit more Pelagian. In other words, "heretics" and their opponents often present polarities that are both errors, though the orthodox may have been in error :)</br>Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 12:21:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/classic_jm_crisis_in_generica/#comment-1310370CP,<br><br>This has been a very interesting conversation; thank's for engaging me. Indeed, that IS the rub. It all comes down to definitions. When I think of worship, I turn to Romans 12:1--where our act of worship is that we are to be living sacrifices. I don't see liturgy as the heart of worship. Not at all. In fact, if I look at the end of Matthew 25, I see serving "the least of these" as an act of worship.<br><br>On top of that, I don't believe that the one purpose of the Church is to worship God. There is a second, complimentary purpose: to embody Christ's presence on earth. In our humanity, we worship God. Inasmuch as we are the Body of Christ and filled with the Spirit, we also embody God's presence in the world. By loving our neighbor, we love God. So any definition of worship that doesn't include an external movement into the world is an incomplete definition.Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 15:05:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294472CP,<br><br>This has been a very interesting conversation; thank's for engaging me. Indeed, that IS the rub. It all comes down to definitions. When I think of worship, I turn to Romans 12:1--where our act of worship is that we are to be living sacrifices. I don't see liturgy as the heart of worship. Not at all. In fact, if I look at the end of Matthew 25, I see serving "the least of these" as an act of worship.<br><br>On top of that, I don't believe that the one purpose of the Church is to worship God. There is a second, complimentary purpose: to embody Christ's presence on earth. In our humanity, we worship God. Inasmuch as we are the Body of Christ and filled with the Spirit, we also embody God's presence in the world. By loving our neighbor, we love God. So any definition of worship that doesn't include an external movement into the world is an incomplete definition.Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 15:05:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294526CP,<br></br><br>This has been a very interesting conversation; thank's for engaging me. Indeed, that IS the rub. It all comes down to definitions. When I think of worship, I turn to Romans 12:1--where our act of worship is that we are to be living sacrifices. I don't see liturgy as the heart of worship. Not at all. In fact, if I look at the end of Matthew 25, I see serving "the least of these" as an act of worship.</br><br></br><br>On top of that, I don't believe that the one purpose of the Church is to worship God. There is a second, complimentary purpose: to embody Christ's presence on earth. In our humanity, we worship God. Inasmuch as we are the Body of Christ and filled with the Spirit, we also embody God's presence in the world. By loving our neighbor, we love God. So any definition of worship that doesn't include an external movement into the world is an incomplete definition.</br>Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 15:05:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/patron_saints8230/#comment-1287736That's not exactly what I mean. Orthodox believers are fine. Its just that some of the defenders of orthodoxy overshoot (folks like Augustine or evangelical Calvinists today).Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 17:21:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_648/#comment-5288886That's not exactly what I mean. Orthodox believers are fine. Its just that some of the defenders of orthodoxy overshoot (folks like Augustine or evangelical Calvinists today).Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 17:21:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_648/#comment-5288898That's not exactly what I mean. Orthodox believers are fine. Its just that some of the defenders of orthodoxy overshoot (folks like Augustine or evangelical Calvinists today).Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 17:21:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/questions_feedback_required/#comment-1287742Nathan...I followed your link and read about your U of M 24/7 prayer room. I'd love to hear more about that. I'm planting an InterVarsity Chapter (a joint venture with my faith community, Missio Dei) and would eventually like something like that on the West Bank too.Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 19:04:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_283/#comment-5288909Nathan...I followed your link and read about your U of M 24/7 prayer room. I'd love to hear more about that. I'm planting an InterVarsity Chapter (a joint venture with my faith community, Missio Dei) and would eventually like something like that on the West Bank too.Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 19:04:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_283/#comment-5288915Nathan...I followed your link and read about your U of M 24/7 prayer room. I'd love to hear more about that. I'm planting an InterVarsity Chapter (a joint venture with my faith community, Missio Dei) and would eventually like something like that on the West Bank too.Van SWed, 26 Jul 2006 19:04:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/generica_revisited/#comment-1287751Thanks for adding that, CP. I posted "revisited" before you submitted this comment.Van SThu, 27 Jul 2006 09:58:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_810/#comment-5288918Thanks for adding that, CP. I posted "revisited" before you submitted this comment.Van SThu, 27 Jul 2006 09:58:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_810/#comment-5288923Thanks for adding that, CP. I posted "revisited" before you submitted this comment.Van SThu, 27 Jul 2006 09:58:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/generica_revisited/#comment-1287753I disagree. Being called "saints" means that we are holy. It isn't just verbal nicety. I side with the Catholic and Orthodox tradition here: the righteousness we have isn't simply imputed but imparted, meaning that we aren't simply declared righteous in some sort of legal sense, but are actually being made righteous as we are transformed by the Spirit. Some anabaptists are in this camp too, which is why the so-called "radical reformation" isn't really protestant.Van SThu, 27 Jul 2006 14:11:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_810/#comment-5288920I disagree. Being called "saints" means that we are holy. It isn't just verbal nicety. I side with the Catholic and Orthodox tradition here: the righteousness we have isn't simply imputed but imparted, meaning that we aren't simply declared righteous in some sort of legal sense, but are actually being made righteous as we are transformed by the Spirit. Some anabaptists are in this camp too, which is why the so-called "radical reformation" isn't really protestant.Van SThu, 27 Jul 2006 14:11:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_810/#comment-5288925I disagree. Being called "saints" means that we are holy. It isn't just verbal nicety. I side with the Catholic and Orthodox tradition here: the righteousness we have isn't simply imputed but imparted, meaning that we aren't simply declared righteous in some sort of legal sense, but are actually being made righteous as we are transformed by the Spirit. Some anabaptists are in this camp too, which is why the so-called "radical reformation" isn't really protestant.Van SThu, 27 Jul 2006 14:11:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/classic_jm_crisis_in_generica/#comment-1310374Matt. I love doctrine. But I can think of at least 20 churches off the top of my head in my city that preach solid doctrine. It is harder to come up with a list the really embodies good doctrine. Read through Paul again and tell me if he ever talks about doctrine without directly tying it to reconciled living--both with God and each other. What you so quaintly call "the goal of the United Way" is the call to live out the gospel. Faith without works is dead. And so is doctrine without living as salt and light. And while I affirm the former, this post is about the latter. Please direct your thoughts and comments to that, please.Van SMon, 31 Jul 2006 11:12:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294480Matt. I love doctrine. But I can think of at least 20 churches off the top of my head in my city that preach solid doctrine. It is harder to come up with a list the really embodies good doctrine. Read through Paul again and tell me if he ever talks about doctrine without directly tying it to reconciled living--both with God and each other. What you so quaintly call "the goal of the United Way" is the call to live out the gospel. Faith without works is dead. And so is doctrine without living as salt and light. And while I affirm the former, this post is about the latter. Please direct your thoughts and comments to that, please.Van SMon, 31 Jul 2006 11:12:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294536Matt. I love doctrine. But I can think of at least 20 churches off the top of my head in my city that preach solid doctrine. It is harder to come up with a list the really embodies good doctrine. Read through Paul again and tell me if he ever talks about doctrine without directly tying it to reconciled living--both with God and each other. What you so quaintly call "the goal of the United Way" is the call to live out the gospel. Faith without works is dead. And so is doctrine without living as salt and light. And while I affirm the former, this post is about the latter. Please direct your thoughts and comments to that, please.Van SMon, 31 Jul 2006 11:12:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/8220c8217mon8221_said_in_the_voice_of_gob_from_arrested_development/#comment-1288375RAB,<br><br>I agree...but with one small qualification: <i>God will hold each Christian citizen of this nation for what we do in response to this nation's policies.</i> Since I am an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptist#Anabaptists_today" rel="nofollow">anabaptist</a> with some leanings towards <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism" rel="nofollow">Christian anarchy</a>, I don't think of myself really as a citizen of this nation, but more as a sojourner in this nation. I think the Church needs to take a prophetic stance in our nation.Van SMon, 31 Jul 2006 21:56:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_729/#comment-5288938RAB,<br><br>I agree...but with one small qualification: <i>God will hold each Christian citizen of this nation for what we do in response to this nation's policies.</i> Since I am an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptist#Anabaptists_today" rel="nofollow">anabaptist</a> with some leanings towards <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism" rel="nofollow">Christian anarchy</a>, I don't think of myself really as a citizen of this nation, but more as a sojourner in this nation. I think the Church needs to take a prophetic stance in our nation.Van SMon, 31 Jul 2006 21:56:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_729/#comment-5288946RAB,<br></br><br>I agree...but with one small qualification: <i>God will hold each Christian citizen of this nation for what we do in response to this nation's policies.</i> Since I am an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptist#Anabaptists_today" rel="nofollow">anabaptist</a> with some leanings towards <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism" rel="nofollow">Christian anarchy</a>, I don't think of myself really as a citizen of this nation, but more as a sojourner in this nation. I think the Church needs to take a prophetic stance in our nation.</br>Van SMon, 31 Jul 2006 21:56:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/8220c8217mon8221_said_in_the_voice_of_gob_from_arrested_development/#comment-1288381Dave,<br><br>No one would disagree that innocent people die in war. Whether the US likes it or not, innocent people die because of our military efforts. But that is what nations do: secure themeselves and make decisions--including military decisions--that will help their nation prosper. But the way the Church prospers and exerts influence over the world is different. We take up the cross. As absurd as it may sound, I would rather have 10,000 American Christians go over to Iraq to proclaim the love of Christ and be martyred than I would have a Christian soldier kill anyone in the name of freedom, no matter how noble th cause.<br><br>I realize that my pacifist views are unrealistic...but so is Christ's view of reality in the Sermon on the Mount.Van SWed, 02 Aug 2006 10:40:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_729/#comment-5288941Dave,<br><br>No one would disagree that innocent people die in war. Whether the US likes it or not, innocent people die because of our military efforts. But that is what nations do: secure themeselves and make decisions--including military decisions--that will help their nation prosper. But the way the Church prospers and exerts influence over the world is different. We take up the cross. As absurd as it may sound, I would rather have 10,000 American Christians go over to Iraq to proclaim the love of Christ and be martyred than I would have a Christian soldier kill anyone in the name of freedom, no matter how noble th cause.<br><br>I realize that my pacifist views are unrealistic...but so is Christ's view of reality in the Sermon on the Mount.Van SWed, 02 Aug 2006 10:40:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_729/#comment-5288949Dave,<br></br><br>No one would disagree that innocent people die in war. Whether the US likes it or not, innocent people die because of our military efforts. But that is what nations do: secure themeselves and make decisions--including military decisions--that will help their nation prosper. But the way the Church prospers and exerts influence over the world is different. We take up the cross. As absurd as it may sound, I would rather have 10,000 American Christians go over to Iraq to proclaim the love of Christ and be martyred than I would have a Christian soldier kill anyone in the name of freedom, no matter how noble th cause.</br><br></br><br>I realize that my pacifist views are unrealistic...but so is Christ's view of reality in the Sermon on the Mount.</br>Van SWed, 02 Aug 2006 10:40:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/classic_jm_crisis_in_generica/#comment-1310376What I think of as solid doctrine and what you think of as solid doctrine may be two different things...but I'm assuming that you'd think of churches like these as being solid:<br><br>Bethelehem Baptist<br>Hope Community Church<br>Immanuel Baptist Church<br>St. Paul Fellowship<br>Mercy Vineyard<br>Calvary Baptist Church<br><br>Sure, churches that only do nice things but don't proclaim the Gospel are simply doing social service. Who the heck every implied anything different? But the idea that if you preach good doctrine, good deeds will flow is naive...unless you acknowledge that teaching a wholistic gospel is Good Doctrine. Jesus' first call was to follow him...before he ever laid down doctrinal particulars. What we do doesn't simply flow out of what we believe. Often what we do shapes our belief, or at least prepares us for doctrine.<br><br>Again, who in the world is suggesting that works save anyone? But faith is more than mental affirmation, it is embodied submission.Van SWed, 02 Aug 2006 10:50:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294484What I think of as solid doctrine and what you think of as solid doctrine may be two different things...but I'm assuming that you'd think of churches like these as being solid:<br><br>Bethelehem Baptist<br>Hope Community Church<br>Immanuel Baptist Church<br>St. Paul Fellowship<br>Mercy Vineyard<br>Calvary Baptist Church<br><br>Sure, churches that only do nice things but don't proclaim the Gospel are simply doing social service. Who the heck every implied anything different? But the idea that if you preach good doctrine, good deeds will flow is naive...unless you acknowledge that teaching a wholistic gospel is Good Doctrine. Jesus' first call was to follow him...before he ever laid down doctrinal particulars. What we do doesn't simply flow out of what we believe. Often what we do shapes our belief, or at least prepares us for doctrine.<br><br>Again, who in the world is suggesting that works save anyone? But faith is more than mental affirmation, it is embodied submission.Van SWed, 02 Aug 2006 10:50:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294540What I think of as solid doctrine and what you think of as solid doctrine may be two different things...but I'm assuming that you'd think of churches like these as being solid:<br></br><br>Bethelehem Baptist</br><br>Hope Community Church</br><br>Immanuel Baptist Church</br><br>St. Paul Fellowship</br><br>Mercy Vineyard</br><br>Calvary Baptist Church</br><br></br><br>Sure, churches that only do nice things but don't proclaim the Gospel are simply doing social service. Who the heck every implied anything different? But the idea that if you preach good doctrine, good deeds will flow is naive...unless you acknowledge that teaching a wholistic gospel is Good Doctrine. Jesus' first call was to follow him...before he ever laid down doctrinal particulars. What we do doesn't simply flow out of what we believe. Often what we do shapes our belief, or at least prepares us for doctrine.</br><br></br><br>Again, who in the world is suggesting that works save anyone? But faith is more than mental affirmation, it is embodied submission.</br>Van SWed, 02 Aug 2006 10:50:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/classic_jm_crisis_in_generica/#comment-1310378CP...scripture tells us a way to live, not just a way to believe. If we make statements of belief without following the way of Jesus, then our beliefs mean nothing.Van SThu, 03 Aug 2006 16:16:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294489CP...scripture tells us a way to live, not just a way to believe. If we make statements of belief without following the way of Jesus, then our beliefs mean nothing.Van SThu, 03 Aug 2006 16:16:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_999/#comment-5294544CP...scripture tells us a way to live, not just a way to believe. If we make statements of belief without following the way of Jesus, then our beliefs mean nothing.Van SThu, 03 Aug 2006 16:16:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/who_would_jesus_bomb/#comment-1288586jr, you are probably right. But Jesus is elevated nonetheless...not in a "Christian" way per se, but as though he were a Great precursor to Gandhi. The thing I'm more interested in is the reader's response to Jesus, as depicted in the article.<br><br>I am against the war in Iraq because I follow Jesus, not the other way around. Anytime Jesus is used as a political tool, it pretty much pisses me off. That is the great sin of Christendom. And if we end up with a Christendom of the Right or of the Left, Jesus ends up being subordinated to ideology.Van SThu, 10 Aug 2006 16:30:58 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_288/#comment-5288991jr, you are probably right. But Jesus is elevated nonetheless...not in a "Christian" way per se, but as though he were a Great precursor to Gandhi. The thing I'm more interested in is the reader's response to Jesus, as depicted in the article.<br><br>I am against the war in Iraq because I follow Jesus, not the other way around. Anytime Jesus is used as a political tool, it pretty much pisses me off. That is the great sin of Christendom. And if we end up with a Christendom of the Right or of the Left, Jesus ends up being subordinated to ideology.Van SThu, 10 Aug 2006 16:30:58 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_288/#comment-5288996jr, you are probably right. But Jesus is elevated nonetheless...not in a "Christian" way per se, but as though he were a Great precursor to Gandhi. The thing I'm more interested in is the reader's response to Jesus, as depicted in the article.<br></br><br>I am against the war in Iraq because I follow Jesus, not the other way around. Anytime Jesus is used as a political tool, it pretty much pisses me off. That is the great sin of Christendom. And if we end up with a Christendom of the Right or of the Left, Jesus ends up being subordinated to ideology.</br>Van SThu, 10 Aug 2006 16:30:58 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/quick_poll_best_books_to_shape_contextual_ecclesiology/#comment-1288578I'm wondering which would be better between "Missional Church" and "Continuing Conversion of the CHurch." Guder had his hand in both books, but I'm not sure which would be better for a sort of theological intro to missional ecclesiology.Van SFri, 11 Aug 2006 15:41:58 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_047/#comment-5288979I'm wondering which would be better between "Missional Church" and "Continuing Conversion of the CHurch." Guder had his hand in both books, but I'm not sure which would be better for a sort of theological intro to missional ecclesiology.Van SFri, 11 Aug 2006 15:41:58 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_047/#comment-5288987I'm wondering which would be better between "Missional Church" and "Continuing Conversion of the CHurch." Guder had his hand in both books, but I'm not sure which would be better for a sort of theological intro to missional ecclesiology.Van SFri, 11 Aug 2006 15:41:58 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/do_you_need_a_34y34_chromosome_to_be_a_34pastor34_reflections_of_an_xy8230/#comment-1288874Thanks for reminding me Jeff... ;)<br><br>JVD: Thanks for sharing your experience with emerging leaders. That definitely needs to be factored in.Van SMon, 28 Aug 2006 11:18:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_427/#comment-5289006Thanks for reminding me Jeff... ;)<br><br>JVD: Thanks for sharing your experience with emerging leaders. That definitely needs to be factored in.Van SMon, 28 Aug 2006 11:18:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_427/#comment-5289016Thanks for reminding me Jeff... ;)<br></br><br>JVD: Thanks for sharing your experience with emerging leaders. That definitely needs to be factored in.</br>Van SMon, 28 Aug 2006 11:18:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_folly_of_pacifism_in_a_broken_world/#comment-1289080David, I completely agree...point well taken. I addressed this a bit a few posts ago. I think it might be better to start thinking of myself as a "peacemaker" rather than a "pacifist."Van SWed, 30 Aug 2006 00:44:16 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6478/#comment-5289030David, I completely agree...point well taken. I addressed this a bit a few posts ago. I think it might be better to start thinking of myself as a "peacemaker" rather than a "pacifist."Van SWed, 30 Aug 2006 00:44:16 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6478/#comment-5289036David, I completely agree...point well taken. I addressed this a bit a few posts ago. I think it might be better to start thinking of myself as a "peacemaker" rather than a "pacifist."Van SWed, 30 Aug 2006 00:44:16 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/more_thoughts_on_women8217s_roles_in_the_church/#comment-1289092So Dave, does this mean that you could affirm a woman in any leadership role, so long as she fits the criteria you list?Van SThu, 31 Aug 2006 12:47:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_022/#comment-5289040So Dave, does this mean that you could affirm a woman in any leadership role, so long as she fits the criteria you list?Van SThu, 31 Aug 2006 12:47:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_022/#comment-5289046So Dave, does this mean that you could affirm a woman in any leadership role, so long as she fits the criteria you list?Van SThu, 31 Aug 2006 12:47:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/more_thoughts_on_women8217s_roles_in_the_church/#comment-1289098I'm not trying to ask a loaded question...it is an open honest one. It sounds like, in your paper, that gender alone is no longer an issue. If that isn't the case, then I'd encourage you to make it clearer in your paper...that's all. I'm really not trying to be schnarky or anything.Van SThu, 31 Aug 2006 15:31:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_022/#comment-5289042I'm not trying to ask a loaded question...it is an open honest one. It sounds like, in your paper, that gender alone is no longer an issue. If that isn't the case, then I'd encourage you to make it clearer in your paper...that's all. I'm really not trying to be schnarky or anything.Van SThu, 31 Aug 2006 15:31:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_022/#comment-5289048I'm not trying to ask a loaded question...it is an open honest one. It sounds like, in your paper, that gender alone is no longer an issue. If that isn't the case, then I'd encourage you to make it clearer in your paper...that's all. I'm really not trying to be schnarky or anything.Van SThu, 31 Aug 2006 15:31:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_fundamentalist_rebuke_of_entertaining_evangelism/#comment-1289369Funny!Van SSun, 10 Sep 2006 16:02:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5765/#comment-5289073Funny!Van SSun, 10 Sep 2006 16:02:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5765/#comment-5289084Funny!Van SSun, 10 Sep 2006 16:02:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_fundamentalist_rebuke_of_entertaining_evangelism/#comment-1289377fargo john...intervarsity is great. However, my role within intervarsity is in limbo. Fundraising is slow-going. It is hard to force myself to stay on top of that. I have an artist's temperment; I approach ministry fluidly and ride the waves of inspiration as I do so. Fundraising takes a regimented mind, and it is VERY difficult more me to find the motivation to plug away at it.<br><br>I too struggle with the standard seeker-church approach to evangelism. And I'm all for challenging those approaches. It simply doesn't help when folks like the ones commenting on the blog in question respond with such bitterness and anger. It isn't the way brothers and sisters are supposed to talk to other brothers and sisters.<br><br>Jeff...we are due for a cold frosty beverage. When are you gonna be in the cities again?<br><br>JVD...I agree. I think what Grace is doing is perhaps a bit tacky and isn't at all what I'd do. I even think it has some negative effects. But I can say that and still be respectful and loving. I know Grace Fellowship and can disagree even as I love them. Why is this such a hard idea for some folks to grasp?Van SWed, 13 Sep 2006 15:02:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5765/#comment-5289080fargo john...intervarsity is great. However, my role within intervarsity is in limbo. Fundraising is slow-going. It is hard to force myself to stay on top of that. I have an artist's temperment; I approach ministry fluidly and ride the waves of inspiration as I do so. Fundraising takes a regimented mind, and it is VERY difficult more me to find the motivation to plug away at it.<br><br>I too struggle with the standard seeker-church approach to evangelism. And I'm all for challenging those approaches. It simply doesn't help when folks like the ones commenting on the blog in question respond with such bitterness and anger. It isn't the way brothers and sisters are supposed to talk to other brothers and sisters.<br><br>Jeff...we are due for a cold frosty beverage. When are you gonna be in the cities again?<br><br>JVD...I agree. I think what Grace is doing is perhaps a bit tacky and isn't at all what I'd do. I even think it has some negative effects. But I can say that and still be respectful and loving. I know Grace Fellowship and can disagree even as I love them. Why is this such a hard idea for some folks to grasp?Van SWed, 13 Sep 2006 15:02:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5765/#comment-5289088fargo john...intervarsity is great. However, my role within intervarsity is in limbo. Fundraising is slow-going. It is hard to force myself to stay on top of that. I have an artist's temperment; I approach ministry fluidly and ride the waves of inspiration as I do so. Fundraising takes a regimented mind, and it is VERY difficult more me to find the motivation to plug away at it.<br></br><br>I too struggle with the standard seeker-church approach to evangelism. And I'm all for challenging those approaches. It simply doesn't help when folks like the ones commenting on the blog in question respond with such bitterness and anger. It isn't the way brothers and sisters are supposed to talk to other brothers and sisters.</br><br></br><br>Jeff...we are due for a cold frosty beverage. When are you gonna be in the cities again?</br><br></br><br>JVD...I agree. I think what Grace is doing is perhaps a bit tacky and isn't at all what I'd do. I even think it has some negative effects. But I can say that and still be respectful and loving. I know Grace Fellowship and can disagree even as I love them. Why is this such a hard idea for some folks to grasp?</br>Van SWed, 13 Sep 2006 15:02:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/urban_churches_and_the_challenge_of_sustainability/#comment-1289390o2thoughtful...<br><br>Some do that. But it is a rare church that gives its resources away like that. Those that do are great. And its not as though I think city churches are bad, not at all. They are simply not enough.<br><br>James...that is a good approach and is the sort of approach that we need to see more here. Incarnational instead of attractional approaches are what the urban areas need. Look <a href="http://www.the-next-wave-ezine.info/issue85/index.cfm?id=8&amp;ref=ARTICLES_THE%20BEST%20OF%202005_138" rel="nofollow">here</a> for an article that I wrote about this.Van SSun, 24 Sep 2006 16:41:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_139/#comment-5289097o2thoughtful...<br><br>Some do that. But it is a rare church that gives its resources away like that. Those that do are great. And its not as though I think city churches are bad, not at all. They are simply not enough.<br><br>James...that is a good approach and is the sort of approach that we need to see more here. Incarnational instead of attractional approaches are what the urban areas need. Look <a href="http://www.the-next-wave-ezine.info/issue85/index.cfm?id=8&amp;ref=ARTICLES_THE%20BEST%20OF%202005_138" rel="nofollow">here</a> for an article that I wrote about this.Van SSun, 24 Sep 2006 16:41:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_139/#comment-5289102o2thoughtful...<br></br><br>Some do that. But it is a rare church that gives its resources away like that. Those that do are great. And its not as though I think city churches are bad, not at all. They are simply not enough.</br><br></br><br>James...that is a good approach and is the sort of approach that we need to see more here. Incarnational instead of attractional approaches are what the urban areas need. Look <a href="http://www.the-next-wave-ezine.info/issue85/index.cfm?id=8&amp;ref=ARTICLES_THE%20BEST%20OF%202005_138" rel="nofollow">here</a> for an article that I wrote about this.</br>Van SSun, 24 Sep 2006 16:41:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/on_resistance_responses_requested/#comment-1289407I agree that we should resist sectarianism, although I think it is perfectly valid to have a list of things one is against--like poverty or sexism or consumerism. Some of these things need to be combatted instead of merely promoting their opposites. When it comes to matters of justice in particular, simply promoting the positive and leaving the negative alone doesn't go far enough.<br><br>While it may not be useful to resist things within the American Church, there are larger American and/or global issues that should perhaps be named and resisted. True, it is never enough merely to resist without offering an alternative. But often it isn't enough merely to offer the alternative.Van SWed, 27 Sep 2006 14:44:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_153/#comment-5289117I agree that we should resist sectarianism, although I think it is perfectly valid to have a list of things one is against--like poverty or sexism or consumerism. Some of these things need to be combatted instead of merely promoting their opposites. When it comes to matters of justice in particular, simply promoting the positive and leaving the negative alone doesn't go far enough.<br><br>While it may not be useful to resist things within the American Church, there are larger American and/or global issues that should perhaps be named and resisted. True, it is never enough merely to resist without offering an alternative. But often it isn't enough merely to offer the alternative.Van SWed, 27 Sep 2006 14:44:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_153/#comment-5289127I agree that we should resist sectarianism, although I think it is perfectly valid to have a list of things one is against--like poverty or sexism or consumerism. Some of these things need to be combatted instead of merely promoting their opposites. When it comes to matters of justice in particular, simply promoting the positive and leaving the negative alone doesn't go far enough.<br></br><br>While it may not be useful to resist things within the American Church, there are larger American and/or global issues that should perhaps be named and resisted. True, it is never enough merely to resist without offering an alternative. But often it isn't enough merely to offer the alternative.</br>Van SWed, 27 Sep 2006 14:44:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/on_resistance_responses_requested/#comment-1289411Luke,<br><br>Thanks for the questions. I've arbitrarily decided upon the number because there are indeed so many possibilities. Having 8 chapters will force me to select 8 "powers" that are particularly problematic and that I can best address from my own research and insights.<br><br>"Powers" are systemic problems that are multifaceted and require a systemic counter-response. They are usually interwoven into the fabric of society. This is why the Church (rather than the activity of individuals) is the best response--since we can embody a counter-culture, a counter-system to the powers. A good way to think of a power is as an "ism" that directly challenges the Life Jesus calls us into.<br><br>Does that help?Van SWed, 27 Sep 2006 17:52:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_153/#comment-5289119Luke,<br><br>Thanks for the questions. I've arbitrarily decided upon the number because there are indeed so many possibilities. Having 8 chapters will force me to select 8 "powers" that are particularly problematic and that I can best address from my own research and insights.<br><br>"Powers" are systemic problems that are multifaceted and require a systemic counter-response. They are usually interwoven into the fabric of society. This is why the Church (rather than the activity of individuals) is the best response--since we can embody a counter-culture, a counter-system to the powers. A good way to think of a power is as an "ism" that directly challenges the Life Jesus calls us into.<br><br>Does that help?Van SWed, 27 Sep 2006 17:52:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_153/#comment-5289129Luke,<br></br><br>Thanks for the questions. I've arbitrarily decided upon the number because there are indeed so many possibilities. Having 8 chapters will force me to select 8 "powers" that are particularly problematic and that I can best address from my own research and insights.</br><br></br><br>"Powers" are systemic problems that are multifaceted and require a systemic counter-response. They are usually interwoven into the fabric of society. This is why the Church (rather than the activity of individuals) is the best response--since we can embody a counter-culture, a counter-system to the powers. A good way to think of a power is as an "ism" that directly challenges the Life Jesus calls us into.</br><br></br><br>Does that help?</br>Van SWed, 27 Sep 2006 17:52:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_rationale_for_resistance/#comment-1289425I am. It is a great book, one that I will probably build upon in my own book. One of the aims of my own book will be to take some of the best stuff out there and take it more deeply into the realm of praxis.Van SThu, 28 Sep 2006 11:33:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_923/#comment-5289138I am. It is a great book, one that I will probably build upon in my own book. One of the aims of my own book will be to take some of the best stuff out there and take it more deeply into the realm of praxis.Van SThu, 28 Sep 2006 11:33:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_923/#comment-5289143I am. It is a great book, one that I will probably build upon in my own book. One of the aims of my own book will be to take some of the best stuff out there and take it more deeply into the realm of praxis.Van SThu, 28 Sep 2006 11:33:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/on_resistance_responses_requested/#comment-1289417Party on, Gregg. I'll take a look. It would be good to chat about my thoughts and research sometime and get your perspective in light of action-research and systems thinking.<br><br>Graham, I've got to write a chapter on consumerism--seeing as how that is my pet "power" to rail against. The difficultly I'm feeling in this conceptual stage of the book is that so many of these "powers" are so pervasive and overlap so much with other powers that it is hard to isolate them enough categorically to treat them with a seperate chapter--like "consumerism" and "greed" and "debt" etc. Violence and Militarism are very much different, but overlap a great deal as well. Maybe isolating one "power" per chapter isn't the best approach. I'm open to suggestions.<br><br>I do indeed know of Shane Claiborne. His community may be one that I talk to as an embodiment of resistance.Van SThu, 28 Sep 2006 11:38:32 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_153/#comment-5289122Party on, Gregg. I'll take a look. It would be good to chat about my thoughts and research sometime and get your perspective in light of action-research and systems thinking.<br><br>Graham, I've got to write a chapter on consumerism--seeing as how that is my pet "power" to rail against. The difficultly I'm feeling in this conceptual stage of the book is that so many of these "powers" are so pervasive and overlap so much with other powers that it is hard to isolate them enough categorically to treat them with a seperate chapter--like "consumerism" and "greed" and "debt" etc. Violence and Militarism are very much different, but overlap a great deal as well. Maybe isolating one "power" per chapter isn't the best approach. I'm open to suggestions.<br><br>I do indeed know of Shane Claiborne. His community may be one that I talk to as an embodiment of resistance.Van SThu, 28 Sep 2006 11:38:32 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_153/#comment-5289132Party on, Gregg. I'll take a look. It would be good to chat about my thoughts and research sometime and get your perspective in light of action-research and systems thinking.<br></br><br>Graham, I've got to write a chapter on consumerism--seeing as how that is my pet "power" to rail against. The difficultly I'm feeling in this conceptual stage of the book is that so many of these "powers" are so pervasive and overlap so much with other powers that it is hard to isolate them enough categorically to treat them with a seperate chapter--like "consumerism" and "greed" and "debt" etc. Violence and Militarism are very much different, but overlap a great deal as well. Maybe isolating one "power" per chapter isn't the best approach. I'm open to suggestions.</br><br></br><br>I do indeed know of Shane Claiborne. His community may be one that I talk to as an embodiment of resistance.</br>Van SThu, 28 Sep 2006 11:38:32 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/did_i_miss_something_thoughts_on_the_8220missional8221_church/#comment-1289437Jamie,<br><br>I may have misunderstood the point of your post, but it seems to me that thinking of the "missional" camp versus the "emerging" camp is something that is indeed happening. Your blog may not make that point, but some folks that commented did, and there is evidence for such a rift in the larger blogosphere. The rift has been there for a while, among progressive "emerging" types and those more like Driscoll. The only point I'm trying to make in my post is to voice my concern over the growing affiliation of the second group with the term "missional." I don't draw this conclusion from your post, your post simply got me thinking down this path.Van SFri, 29 Sep 2006 12:29:13 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_844/#comment-5289150Jamie,<br><br>I may have misunderstood the point of your post, but it seems to me that thinking of the "missional" camp versus the "emerging" camp is something that is indeed happening. Your blog may not make that point, but some folks that commented did, and there is evidence for such a rift in the larger blogosphere. The rift has been there for a while, among progressive "emerging" types and those more like Driscoll. The only point I'm trying to make in my post is to voice my concern over the growing affiliation of the second group with the term "missional." I don't draw this conclusion from your post, your post simply got me thinking down this path.Van SFri, 29 Sep 2006 12:29:13 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_844/#comment-5289161Jamie,<br></br><br>I may have misunderstood the point of your post, but it seems to me that thinking of the "missional" camp versus the "emerging" camp is something that is indeed happening. Your blog may not make that point, but some folks that commented did, and there is evidence for such a rift in the larger blogosphere. The rift has been there for a while, among progressive "emerging" types and those more like Driscoll. The only point I'm trying to make in my post is to voice my concern over the growing affiliation of the second group with the term "missional." I don't draw this conclusion from your post, your post simply got me thinking down this path.</br>Van SFri, 29 Sep 2006 12:29:13 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/a_rationale_for_resistance/#comment-1289429I enjoyed Camp's book, though I don't know if he brough the language low enough for it to be a book for the masses. His is one of the better books out there that really help to recast a discipleship that is centered around the ethics of Jesus. David Augsburger's <i>Subversive Spirituality</i> is another.Van SSat, 30 Sep 2006 18:10:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_923/#comment-5289140I enjoyed Camp's book, though I don't know if he brough the language low enough for it to be a book for the masses. His is one of the better books out there that really help to recast a discipleship that is centered around the ethics of Jesus. David Augsburger's <i>Subversive Spirituality</i> is another.Van SSat, 30 Sep 2006 18:10:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_923/#comment-5289145I enjoyed Camp's book, though I don't know if he brough the language low enough for it to be a book for the masses. His is one of the better books out there that really help to recast a discipleship that is centered around the ethics of Jesus. David Augsburger's <i>Subversive Spirituality</i> is another.Van SSat, 30 Sep 2006 18:10:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/did_i_miss_something_thoughts_on_the_8220missional8221_church/#comment-1289448Steve,<br>I don't know if Conservative Evangelical Calvinists have hijacked the term "missional" on purpose or have deliberately tried to make it THEIR word. I think the word "missional" is becoming like the word "evangelical"--it used to be that the word was a larger category used by many within the Protestant Tradition, but somehow it became more and more associated with pietist conservative protestants as it became their banner word.Van SSun, 01 Oct 2006 10:42:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_844/#comment-5289156Steve,<br>I don't know if Conservative Evangelical Calvinists have hijacked the term "missional" on purpose or have deliberately tried to make it THEIR word. I think the word "missional" is becoming like the word "evangelical"--it used to be that the word was a larger category used by many within the Protestant Tradition, but somehow it became more and more associated with pietist conservative protestants as it became their banner word.Van SSun, 01 Oct 2006 10:42:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_844/#comment-5289167Steve,<br>I don't know if Conservative Evangelical Calvinists have hijacked the term "missional" on purpose or have deliberately tried to make it THEIR word. I think the word "missional" is becoming like the word "evangelical"--it used to be that the word was a larger category used by many within the Protestant Tradition, but somehow it became more and more associated with pietist conservative protestants as it became their banner word.</br>Van SSun, 01 Oct 2006 10:42:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/did_i_miss_something_thoughts_on_the_8220missional8221_church/#comment-1289452I'm not comfortable with the word being used solely to self-differentiate. I try to use it as a possitive assertion of a core understanding. I think all churches are, by definition, missional. A church doesn't decide whether or not to be missional any more than a Christian decides to be Trinitarian. It is simply a matter of whether or not a church is intentionally so. Using it as a descriptor is a way of drawing attention to one's understanding of the nature and function of the church.<br><br>Many evangelicals are indeed self-reflectively missional. Most, however, use it in an inaccurage way--as though it were interchangeable with "evangelistic" or "contextual."Van SMon, 02 Oct 2006 11:34:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_844/#comment-5289158I'm not comfortable with the word being used solely to self-differentiate. I try to use it as a possitive assertion of a core understanding. I think all churches are, by definition, missional. A church doesn't decide whether or not to be missional any more than a Christian decides to be Trinitarian. It is simply a matter of whether or not a church is intentionally so. Using it as a descriptor is a way of drawing attention to one's understanding of the nature and function of the church.<br><br>Many evangelicals are indeed self-reflectively missional. Most, however, use it in an inaccurage way--as though it were interchangeable with "evangelistic" or "contextual."Van SMon, 02 Oct 2006 11:34:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_844/#comment-5289169I'm not comfortable with the word being used solely to self-differentiate. I try to use it as a possitive assertion of a core understanding. I think all churches are, by definition, missional. A church doesn't decide whether or not to be missional any more than a Christian decides to be Trinitarian. It is simply a matter of whether or not a church is intentionally so. Using it as a descriptor is a way of drawing attention to one's understanding of the nature and function of the church.<br></br><br>Many evangelicals are indeed self-reflectively missional. Most, however, use it in an inaccurage way--as though it were interchangeable with "evangelistic" or "contextual."</br>Van SMon, 02 Oct 2006 11:34:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/resistance_table_of_contents/#comment-1289464If you click the title for each post, it brings you to its seperate page. This post is located at <a href="http://missionthink.org/?p=464" rel="nofollow">http://missionthink.org/?p=464</a>.Van SThu, 05 Oct 2006 03:04:16 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_086/#comment-5289181If you click the title for each post, it brings you to its seperate page. This post is located at <a href="http://missionthink.org/?p=464" rel="nofollow">http://missionthink.org/?p=464</a>.Van SThu, 05 Oct 2006 03:04:16 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_086/#comment-5289194If you click the title for each post, it brings you to its seperate page. This post is located at <a href="http://missionthink.org/?p=464" rel="nofollow">http://missionthink.org/?p=464</a>.Van SThu, 05 Oct 2006 03:04:16 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/resistance_table_of_contents/#comment-1289467Blorge, these descriptions aren't the pitch I've given to Wipf &#38; Stock, but are quickly thrown together for readers of my blog. There is so much to write about pragmatism and "success" that I'm not worried about having much to say. You're right about chapter 5 being a book unto itself. My goal for each of these chapters isn't to lay out a big and complete case for resistance, but to lay a brief, yet solid, introductory case for resistance and then spend most of my time on praxis--drawing from examples that I hope to find and interact with in the coming months.Van SThu, 05 Oct 2006 14:01:34 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_086/#comment-5289183Blorge, these descriptions aren't the pitch I've given to Wipf &#38; Stock, but are quickly thrown together for readers of my blog. There is so much to write about pragmatism and "success" that I'm not worried about having much to say. You're right about chapter 5 being a book unto itself. My goal for each of these chapters isn't to lay out a big and complete case for resistance, but to lay a brief, yet solid, introductory case for resistance and then spend most of my time on praxis--drawing from examples that I hope to find and interact with in the coming months.Van SThu, 05 Oct 2006 14:01:34 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_086/#comment-5289196Blorge, these descriptions aren't the pitch I've given to Wipf &#38; Stock, but are quickly thrown together for readers of my blog. There is so much to write about pragmatism and "success" that I'm not worried about having much to say. You're right about chapter 5 being a book unto itself. My goal for each of these chapters isn't to lay out a big and complete case for resistance, but to lay a brief, yet solid, introductory case for resistance and then spend most of my time on praxis--drawing from examples that I hope to find and interact with in the coming months.Van SThu, 05 Oct 2006 14:01:34 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/twin_cities_emergent_cohort_reborn/#comment-1289487I don't think it is a matter of what emergent chooses. The emerging movement is fluid and cannot be contained, defined, or controlled--much like the charismatic movement. There are a number of issues being exposed and addressed within the American church--particular within evangelicalism--in the past couple decades that are causing conflicts, changes, and new developments. This overall set of trends is generically called the emerging church.<br><br>"Emergent" as a particular organization that seeks to broker relations regarding the emerging church may come or go, but the emerging phenomenon has already brough about enough change to have at least shifted the ecclesial landscape of North America. The question is, what sorts of developments will continue to "emerge" and what will these do to the landscape of North American Christianity?Van SWed, 18 Oct 2006 02:05:51 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_650/#comment-5289207I don't think it is a matter of what emergent chooses. The emerging movement is fluid and cannot be contained, defined, or controlled--much like the charismatic movement. There are a number of issues being exposed and addressed within the American church--particular within evangelicalism--in the past couple decades that are causing conflicts, changes, and new developments. This overall set of trends is generically called the emerging church.<br><br>"Emergent" as a particular organization that seeks to broker relations regarding the emerging church may come or go, but the emerging phenomenon has already brough about enough change to have at least shifted the ecclesial landscape of North America. The question is, what sorts of developments will continue to "emerge" and what will these do to the landscape of North American Christianity?Van SWed, 18 Oct 2006 02:05:51 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_650/#comment-5289213I don't think it is a matter of what emergent chooses. The emerging movement is fluid and cannot be contained, defined, or controlled--much like the charismatic movement. There are a number of issues being exposed and addressed within the American church--particular within evangelicalism--in the past couple decades that are causing conflicts, changes, and new developments. This overall set of trends is generically called the emerging church.<br></br><br>"Emergent" as a particular organization that seeks to broker relations regarding the emerging church may come or go, but the emerging phenomenon has already brough about enough change to have at least shifted the ecclesial landscape of North America. The question is, what sorts of developments will continue to "emerge" and what will these do to the landscape of North American Christianity?</br>Van SWed, 18 Oct 2006 02:05:51 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/trimming_the_fat/#comment-1289500A boy, huh? Maybe he'll come out all chubby and fuzzy like you. ;)Van SWed, 18 Oct 2006 17:55:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6801/#comment-5289219A boy, huh? Maybe he'll come out all chubby and fuzzy like you. ;)Van SWed, 18 Oct 2006 17:55:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6801/#comment-5289221A boy, huh? Maybe he'll come out all chubby and fuzzy like you. ;)Van SWed, 18 Oct 2006 17:55:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/twin_cities_emergent_cohort_reborn/#comment-1289493Sorry for my lack of a response, Michelle. You asked some big questions and I've had your email flagged for a response, but I haven't honestly known how to response. I'll send you whatever response I can offer you via email.Van SThu, 19 Oct 2006 00:16:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_650/#comment-5289210Sorry for my lack of a response, Michelle. You asked some big questions and I've had your email flagged for a response, but I haven't honestly known how to response. I'll send you whatever response I can offer you via email.Van SThu, 19 Oct 2006 00:16:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_650/#comment-5289216Sorry for my lack of a response, Michelle. You asked some big questions and I've had your email flagged for a response, but I haven't honestly known how to response. I'll send you whatever response I can offer you via email.Van SThu, 19 Oct 2006 00:16:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/twin_cities_emergent_cohort_reborn/#comment-1289495I agree to a point Abigail. But I think your view of history is a bit overly cyclical. Also, the emerging movement is of mixed parentage, so its hard to predict where it will go. At any given emergent cohort meeting I've been to, there have been a diverse mix of folks, denominationally speaking. Lutherans, Episcopalians, Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, etc. Liberals and conservatives. There have even been folks from different nations and sexual orientation at the meetings. For sure, the movement has been dominated by anglo male evangelicals, but the rate at which it is diversifying is astonishing. In the ten years since the movement has been recognizable, the movement has broadened and now is generally a group of folks that are asking similar questions. Sure, many are reacting against the same sorts of things, but those who put the movement in a box and say that they are simply adolesents who are upset with their parents are failing to see the integration, creativity, and newness that is budding.<br><br>I say this as someone who has loads of frustrations with the movement. And although I could give you a quick list of 10 things wrong with Emergent as an organization and the emerging movement as a whole, I am filled with hope that some really good things will come of the movement.Van SThu, 19 Oct 2006 00:25:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_650/#comment-5289211I agree to a point Abigail. But I think your view of history is a bit overly cyclical. Also, the emerging movement is of mixed parentage, so its hard to predict where it will go. At any given emergent cohort meeting I've been to, there have been a diverse mix of folks, denominationally speaking. Lutherans, Episcopalians, Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, etc. Liberals and conservatives. There have even been folks from different nations and sexual orientation at the meetings. For sure, the movement has been dominated by anglo male evangelicals, but the rate at which it is diversifying is astonishing. In the ten years since the movement has been recognizable, the movement has broadened and now is generally a group of folks that are asking similar questions. Sure, many are reacting against the same sorts of things, but those who put the movement in a box and say that they are simply adolesents who are upset with their parents are failing to see the integration, creativity, and newness that is budding.<br><br>I say this as someone who has loads of frustrations with the movement. And although I could give you a quick list of 10 things wrong with Emergent as an organization and the emerging movement as a whole, I am filled with hope that some really good things will come of the movement.Van SThu, 19 Oct 2006 00:25:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_650/#comment-5289217I agree to a point Abigail. But I think your view of history is a bit overly cyclical. Also, the emerging movement is of mixed parentage, so its hard to predict where it will go. At any given emergent cohort meeting I've been to, there have been a diverse mix of folks, denominationally speaking. Lutherans, Episcopalians, Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, etc. Liberals and conservatives. There have even been folks from different nations and sexual orientation at the meetings. For sure, the movement has been dominated by anglo male evangelicals, but the rate at which it is diversifying is astonishing. In the ten years since the movement has been recognizable, the movement has broadened and now is generally a group of folks that are asking similar questions. Sure, many are reacting against the same sorts of things, but those who put the movement in a box and say that they are simply adolesents who are upset with their parents are failing to see the integration, creativity, and newness that is budding.<br></br><br>I say this as someone who has loads of frustrations with the movement. And although I could give you a quick list of 10 things wrong with Emergent as an organization and the emerging movement as a whole, I am filled with hope that some really good things will come of the movement.</br>Van SThu, 19 Oct 2006 00:25:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/resistance_table_of_contents/#comment-1289483Thanks David. I'll take you up on that offer.Van SMon, 23 Oct 2006 16:16:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_086/#comment-5289192Thanks David. I'll take you up on that offer.Van SMon, 23 Oct 2006 16:16:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_086/#comment-5289205Thanks David. I'll take you up on that offer.Van SMon, 23 Oct 2006 16:16:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/aka_8220lost8221/#comment-1289508You're probably right, b-nut. I think "evangelism" is tainted goods. And one can still talk about the Gospel (ie, the evangel) and reconciliation and redemption and even "witness" without nearly so much baggage.Van SFri, 27 Oct 2006 22:19:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_725/#comment-5289233You're probably right, b-nut. I think "evangelism" is tainted goods. And one can still talk about the Gospel (ie, the evangel) and reconciliation and redemption and even "witness" without nearly so much baggage.Van SFri, 27 Oct 2006 22:19:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_725/#comment-5289235You're probably right, b-nut. I think "evangelism" is tainted goods. And one can still talk about the Gospel (ie, the evangel) and reconciliation and redemption and even "witness" without nearly so much baggage.Van SFri, 27 Oct 2006 22:19:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5016/#comment-5289263Interesting. In what ways do you think you are pelagian?Van SMon, 30 Oct 2006 17:30:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/yay_i8217m_not_a_heretic/#comment-1289576Interesting. In what ways do you think you are pelagian?Van SMon, 30 Oct 2006 18:30:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5016/#comment-5289256Interesting. In what ways do you think you are pelagian?Van SMon, 30 Oct 2006 18:30:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5016/#comment-5289266Ahh. Makes since. I don't think that rejecting inherited original sin is a heresy...as long as one accepts the sinfulness of humanity as a whole.Van SMon, 30 Oct 2006 23:34:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/yay_i8217m_not_a_heretic/#comment-1289582Ahh. Makes since. I don't think that rejecting inherited original sin is a heresy...as long as one accepts the sinfulness of humanity as a whole.Van STue, 31 Oct 2006 00:34:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5016/#comment-5289259Ahh. Makes since. I don't think that rejecting inherited original sin is a heresy...as long as one accepts the sinfulness of humanity as a whole.Van STue, 31 Oct 2006 00:34:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1474/#comment-5289283Perhaps I'll take a look.Van SWed, 01 Nov 2006 11:26:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/thread_82/#comment-1289712Perhaps I'll take a look.Van SWed, 01 Nov 2006 12:26:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1474/#comment-5289273Perhaps I'll take a look.Van SWed, 01 Nov 2006 12:26:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1474/#comment-5289286Thanks for the suggestions. I'm actually reading Nelson-Pallmeyer's book as well, but haven't dug into much. The books listed above are books I've read and love; I am hoping to get some fresh insights and helpful bibliographical material as I re-read them.Van SThu, 02 Nov 2006 13:25:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1474/#comment-5289288Thanks, Kyle. The book is on my list. I started reading it last year but got sidetracked with school reading and by the time I was ready to get back to it, I had to return it to the library.Van SThu, 02 Nov 2006 14:16:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/thread_82/#comment-1289718Thanks for the suggestions. I'm actually reading Nelson-Pallmeyer's book as well, but haven't dug into much. The books listed above are books I've read and love; I am hoping to get some fresh insights and helpful bibliographical material as I re-read them.Van SThu, 02 Nov 2006 14:25:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1474/#comment-5289276Thanks for the suggestions. I'm actually reading Nelson-Pallmeyer's book as well, but haven't dug into much. The books listed above are books I've read and love; I am hoping to get some fresh insights and helpful bibliographical material as I re-read them.Van SThu, 02 Nov 2006 14:25:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/thread_82/#comment-1289722Thanks, Kyle. The book is on my list. I started reading it last year but got sidetracked with school reading and by the time I was ready to get back to it, I had to return it to the library.Van SThu, 02 Nov 2006 15:16:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1474/#comment-5289278Thanks, Kyle. The book is on my list. I started reading it last year but got sidetracked with school reading and by the time I was ready to get back to it, I had to return it to the library.Van SThu, 02 Nov 2006 15:16:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_623/#comment-5289306I'd rather NOT have solidarity with the uninsured. ;)Van SFri, 03 Nov 2006 10:10:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/on_downward_mobility/#comment-1289738I'd rather NOT have solidarity with the uninsured. ;)Van SFri, 03 Nov 2006 11:10:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_623/#comment-5289303I'd rather NOT have solidarity with the uninsured. ;)Van SFri, 03 Nov 2006 11:10:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7300/#comment-5289322Tim,<br></br><br>To say that the emerging church is a bunch of people who follow these nine characteristics is a pretty big simplification, and it puts things in the wrong order. Those nine emphases were selected by Gibbs and Bolger as 9 areas commonly critiqued by the emerging church. In other words, the emerging church isn't defined by those 9 things, those 9 things were simply what Bolger and Gibbs observed and researched as professors.</br><br></br><br>The emerging church is a fundamentally ecclesiological movement because the movement grew out of a changing understanding of the nature of culture, the nature of the church, and how the church relates with culture. Within systematic theology, these areas fall under the category of ecclesiology.</br><br></br><br>Your question regarding the emerging church and denominations is an important one. Though some within the emerging church are anti or non denominational, the movement as a whole dwells within existing structures. And while many (most?) emerging churches are uncomfortable with hierarchy and struggle within their denominational systems, I don't think it is accurate to say that there is a desire to separate from denominations. "Emerging" as a category is to be used much like we use the word "evangelical"--both are movements that exist both inside and outside denominational systems, yet neither has a clearly identifiable set of leaders, beliefs, or institutions.</br>Van SSat, 04 Nov 2006 03:08:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/if_you_want_to_know_what_8220emergent8221_and_8220emerging8221_mean8230/#comment-1289867Tim,<br><br>To say that the emerging church is a bunch of people who follow these nine characteristics is a pretty big simplification, and it puts things in the wrong order. Those nine emphases were selected by Gibbs and Bolger as 9 areas commonly critiqued by the emerging church. In other words, the emerging church isn't defined by those 9 things, those 9 things were simply what Bolger and Gibbs observed and researched as professors.<br><br>The emerging church is a fundamentally ecclesiological movement because the movement grew out of a changing understanding of the nature of culture, the nature of the church, and how the church relates with culture. Within systematic theology, these areas fall under the category of ecclesiology.<br><br>Your question regarding the emerging church and denominations is an important one. Though some within the emerging church are anti or non denominational, the movement as a whole dwells within existing structures. And while many (most?) emerging churches are uncomfortable with hierarchy and struggle within their denominational systems, I don't think it is accurate to say that there is a desire to separate from denominations. "Emerging" as a category is to be used much like we use the word "evangelical"--both are movements that exist both inside and outside denominational systems, yet neither has a clearly identifiable set of leaders, beliefs, or institutions.Van SSat, 04 Nov 2006 04:08:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7300/#comment-5289311Tim,<br><br>To say that the emerging church is a bunch of people who follow these nine characteristics is a pretty big simplification, and it puts things in the wrong order. Those nine emphases were selected by Gibbs and Bolger as 9 areas commonly critiqued by the emerging church. In other words, the emerging church isn't defined by those 9 things, those 9 things were simply what Bolger and Gibbs observed and researched as professors.<br><br>The emerging church is a fundamentally ecclesiological movement because the movement grew out of a changing understanding of the nature of culture, the nature of the church, and how the church relates with culture. Within systematic theology, these areas fall under the category of ecclesiology.<br><br>Your question regarding the emerging church and denominations is an important one. Though some within the emerging church are anti or non denominational, the movement as a whole dwells within existing structures. And while many (most?) emerging churches are uncomfortable with hierarchy and struggle within their denominational systems, I don't think it is accurate to say that there is a desire to separate from denominations. "Emerging" as a category is to be used much like we use the word "evangelical"--both are movements that exist both inside and outside denominational systems, yet neither has a clearly identifiable set of leaders, beliefs, or institutions.Van SSat, 04 Nov 2006 04:08:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7300/#comment-5289329Pretty grim picture Ross. I don't think it is all that grim. Most folks going to church aren't into all this debate and discussion, and are therefore enjoying fellowship and drawing closer to God. But I still think it is worth discussing all of this stuff, and even in detail. But not everyone needs to be so into this stuff as I am. It is just my "field of study." Nevertheless, discussing all this stuff is a small percentage of what I do. It all comes down to learning how to follow Christ with my community. It all comes down to growing in love for God and others. But HOW we do that, and WHY we do that matters to me. We do make it complicated, we make it too complicated. That is why I appreciate the emerging movement, because it is a largely deconstructive movement to make things simpler and empower more "lay" people into being and doing church. Sure from outside it seems like meaningless chatter, but that is always what stuff like this looks like from the outside. I see signs of the Holy Spirit working in the midst of all of this stuff.<br></br><br>Nevertheless, I mostly agree with your frustrations and concerns. Most of the folks that are really seeking the Spirit and doing the "stuff" But most of that goes un-noticed. What we notice is the bickering and glossy books and shiny new churches with the cool new sense of style. But underneath it there are passionately Christ-centered, Spirit-led, God-glorifying people asking important questions as they struggle with how to be church. That is most of the people I know who are involved in the "emerging" church. I'd like to think I'm one of those such people.</br>Van SSat, 04 Nov 2006 11:41:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/if_you_want_to_know_what_8220emergent8221_and_8220emerging8221_mean8230/#comment-1289874Pretty grim picture Ross. I don't think it is all that grim. Most folks going to church aren't into all this debate and discussion, and are therefore enjoying fellowship and drawing closer to God. But I still think it is worth discussing all of this stuff, and even in detail. But not everyone needs to be so into this stuff as I am. It is just my "field of study." Nevertheless, discussing all this stuff is a small percentage of what I do. It all comes down to learning how to follow Christ with my community. It all comes down to growing in love for God and others. But HOW we do that, and WHY we do that matters to me. We do make it complicated, we make it too complicated. That is why I appreciate the emerging movement, because it is a largely deconstructive movement to make things simpler and empower more "lay" people into being and doing church. Sure from outside it seems like meaningless chatter, but that is always what stuff like this looks like from the outside. I see signs of the Holy Spirit working in the midst of all of this stuff.<br><br>Nevertheless, I mostly agree with your frustrations and concerns. Most of the folks that are really seeking the Spirit and doing the "stuff" But most of that goes un-noticed. What we notice is the bickering and glossy books and shiny new churches with the cool new sense of style. But underneath it there are passionately Christ-centered, Spirit-led, God-glorifying people asking important questions as they struggle with how to be church. That is most of the people I know who are involved in the "emerging" church. I'd like to think I'm one of those such people.Van SSat, 04 Nov 2006 12:41:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7300/#comment-5289315Pretty grim picture Ross. I don't think it is all that grim. Most folks going to church aren't into all this debate and discussion, and are therefore enjoying fellowship and drawing closer to God. But I still think it is worth discussing all of this stuff, and even in detail. But not everyone needs to be so into this stuff as I am. It is just my "field of study." Nevertheless, discussing all this stuff is a small percentage of what I do. It all comes down to learning how to follow Christ with my community. It all comes down to growing in love for God and others. But HOW we do that, and WHY we do that matters to me. We do make it complicated, we make it too complicated. That is why I appreciate the emerging movement, because it is a largely deconstructive movement to make things simpler and empower more "lay" people into being and doing church. Sure from outside it seems like meaningless chatter, but that is always what stuff like this looks like from the outside. I see signs of the Holy Spirit working in the midst of all of this stuff.<br><br>Nevertheless, I mostly agree with your frustrations and concerns. Most of the folks that are really seeking the Spirit and doing the "stuff" But most of that goes un-noticed. What we notice is the bickering and glossy books and shiny new churches with the cool new sense of style. But underneath it there are passionately Christ-centered, Spirit-led, God-glorifying people asking important questions as they struggle with how to be church. That is most of the people I know who are involved in the "emerging" church. I'd like to think I'm one of those such people.Van SSat, 04 Nov 2006 12:41:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7300/#comment-5289330JVD...I agree. The whole thing does get tiring. But there are signs of hope. I try to stay focused on Jesus and encouraging people to follow Jesus and live out his "way." But it is easy to get smothered in all the crud of American Christianity.<br></br><br>Tim...I think there are many from other traditions in the conversation. The largest chunk is certainly those from an evangelical background, but I've met many Methodists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians in the movement. There are some Catholics and Orthodox folk in the discussion, but I don't know of any personally. Keep in mind that many are influenced by the the movement whether they recognize it or not. The emerging movement wasn't created in a room somewhere, it is a general shifting of how we understan