Disqus - Latest Comments for AReasonableMan

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:28:28 -0000

Worth remembering the following:

Innocent until proven guilty - very important principled presumption.
McCanns have not been cleared of anything because not accused of anything.
The case being shelved means not just that the prosecutors have decided that they cannot bring charges on the basis of the evidence but also that in their judgement there is no chance of Madeleine McCann being found alive.
The evidence suggesting that Madeleine McCann died in the apartment which led to the arguido status will go on public record for the first time.

I think lots more of interest to come out of the case yet.

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:30:30 -0000

The things which were intriguing remain so.

This little community - with some - well one - member, Lynn seeing the hopeful side of things and the others mainly sceptical - reasonably, as I might see it - remains clearly intrigued.

So what is true? The facts remain more or less as perplexingly simple as they were on day one. Madeleine McCann is gone. No one knows what happened to her.

Along with the sceptics, I think she is dead (I hope she isn't). If the police have evidence that she died in or around the apartment, it would be hard to see how the parents were not involved in some way.

It's hard to see an abduction scenario being true.

If I was the McCanns I would have admitted that I was irresponsible leaving small children alone and going out drinking. No one does that.

I think I would also have admitted that suspicion of my involvement was at least reasonable. Even if I claimed not have been involved, I think I would have to recognise that in general children who are harmed tend to have been harmed by those who should be caring for them.

But it is up to any prosecutor to prove a case. Innocent until proved guilty is a very important principle. Is there a case to be brought? How long can it wait?

One thing I am sure of is that further facts will become clear. (If not this will remain the most perplexing case I can imagine).

So, we await development - in other words, facts.

Still not holding my breath.

btw... this site loaded fairly quickly tonight - I have made no significant changes to my normal fairly minimal computer setup, but did install Firefox 3 which has made little difference in any other way.

btw btw... What of steve? he seems to jump from blog provider to blog provider - in a way this disqus site is a lacuna. Are you ok Steve?

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Sat, 24 May 2008 18:02:26 -0000

I rather agree with Stanley:

"IMHO they are not going back not because they are afraid of arrest, it is much more likely that a re-enactment would shoot holes in the T9 timeline. PDL that night must have had more traffic than Piccadilly Circus. They were all so busy checking the children bundleman could have nicked their wine!"

Indeed :-)

However. We're still no further forward. I am still here, but not coming to this site much because for some reason it completely slows up my browser. If anyone has any idea why this is I'd be happy to hear about it. No other site does this in the same way, it makes it really hard to use.

Will check in from time to time.

A Reasonable Man...

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:23:03 -0000

http://www.guardian.co.uk/u...

God acts in mysterious ways, not least of which was to put an Anglican priest (Church of England - protestant but with some catholic overtones, mostly candles and robes, for those of you who don't keep up with christian denominations) into the Portuguese parish of Praia da luz the day after Madeleine McCann disappeared. Thence unwittingly to become the centre of the McCanns spiritual life until they went off to meet the Pope, and one of the centres of a police investigation - not yet complete.

Not a job I would have volunteered for... nor one I would have wished on anyone else.

The poor priest is seen here in a lush Guardian film (sorry... video). He doesn't say much.

Is it interesting that he is an Anglican and not a Catholic? That he has a wife and children, unlike what Catholic priests are meant to have? Yes but, perhaps, not relevant?

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:53:14 -0000

Lynn, Lizbee, John: are we forgetting the small principle of innocent until proven guilty? Just a wee cornerstone of any civilised legal system, but too often overlooked in blogs and other comments, imho.

It should apply as surely to the Matthews family as it should to the McCanns.

Without prejudicing either of these cases or any other, I believe I can reasonably say that it is sadly never surprising that parents harm their own children - and are probably much more likely to be the culprits than strangers.

The McCann case remains more interesting than any other I can remember, for these reasons.

* The child remains missing; is she dead or alive?

* There is little to go on because of the naure of the investigation. It is neither right nor wrong in my view, but just a fact, that the Portuguese system means the police can't disclose any evidence.

* The parents are official suspects; yet are conducting a bizarre PR campaign which has included visits to the Pope, a huge cash fund, and proclamations on the issue of child safety.

* The one fact I can ascertain apart from the missing Madeleine is that the parents put their own children in danger. Did they also cover up something which happened? They could have. It's a disturbing thought, but one which many people have, exactly because children often come to harm because of their parents' actions - as noted above.

* The case also has a diplomatic/political dimension, because the event took place in one country and the official suspects come from another, indeed two of them have returned to the other country. This is piqued by the fact that a foreign ministry official from one of the countries, with very close connections to the government, was allocated, somewhat unusually, and very quickly, to help the parents, and then became their PR person.

In short: it's a mystery.

The media frenzy which arose quickly and still continues despite the British libel actions (I understand this is the "biggest" story of recent years in terms of coverage, more than wars, sport, gossip...) can easily be explained by that fact: the public wants to know what happened; no-one really knows; therefore there is a news vacuum and the tabloids can fill it easily by endless speculation, with the usual unhealthy twist of class prejudice.

The speculation is mostly froth. The class prejudice is real. The fact that the Portuguese police continue to investigate the parents is what keeps the case fascinating, to me and to all of you.

I have continually argued that if the police have evidence to show that the child died in or around the apartment, it would be hard to believe that the parents were not involved in some way. It appears to me that the police may have some evidence to that effect.

We still await any charges or even disclosure of police evidence. And I'm still not holding my breath.

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:24:06 -0000

Hallo. I have been busy over past few weeks and there was little happening in this case until the recent interviews - but the main reason I havent been around it because this site loads so painfully slowly on every occasion i use it. I wonder if Steve can do something to sort that out. Will keep looking in anyway.

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:33:08 -0000

How about an "amber alert" system for when parents go missing ;-)

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 06:34:51 -0000

A whole day reconstructed. I can see why the McCanns wouldn't want to take part. Their behaviour in neglecting the children would be amply proved.

There is a risk to the investigation also.

A reconstruction is based on known facts. Famously in this case, according to everyone who wants us not to talk about it (hi blimey, clarence) there is only one known fact, viz. Madeleine McCann is gone.

I am sure the police have more evidence than that on which to base a reconstruction.

But. Question. How would/will the police deal with the disputed evidence. For a simple example, will the picture be taken at 1.29 or 2.29?

More problematically, for example, will they have a bundleman? If so, will he be carrying a child, or a blanket? Will he appear at the end of the road during the time that Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins are talking? If they put a bundleman in the reconstruction does that mean bundleman really was there on May 3 last year? If Jane Tanner "sees" the "bundleman" in a reconstruction, does that mean she was really there last year, and that she saw him?

And more epistemological questions...

All fascinating though. Still here, still waiting for some more hard facts.

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:39:31 -0000

The tabloid owners are only interested in their bottom lines. They'll put anything in their papers, as we have seen, to make money, or to save themselves from paying out more.

The spat between the papers and the McCanns proves nothing.

The case is exactly as it was was. The McCanns are still arguidos.

As I have said before - if the police have evidence that the little girl was dead in or around the apartment, it is very hard to see how the McCanns (either or both) could not be involved.

And whatever happens in the case as it slowly porgresses now, it is beyond doubt that the McCanns were not acting as responsible parents on the night their daugher disappeared.

Still waiting...

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:49:29 -0000

Stanley will remember from school geography or history that Goa was a Portuguese colony for hundreds of years (until 1961 in fact).

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 14:17:56 -0000

Just in case we do, it looks like Clarence has been busy with more "documentary" chaff.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/u...

So that's today's McCann story. Not the ongoing police investigation into them.

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 08:13:48 -0000

Ah it's nice to be loved!

So - just to be reasonable about it, I will take issue with *some* of your other comments!

I don't think class is just about perceptions - it is about reality too. And also, I don't think it's just about money - it certainly is about wealth, but perhaps more accurately it is about power.

Here's where it gets complicated. The mass media is owned and controlled by powerful, wealthy, rich people and the industry's stok in trade is the shaping of perception.

The McCanns as a fragrant Brit couple who lost their lovely daughter to the predations of a nasty, foreign abductor and then suffered incompetent foreign policing - that story suits many of the mass media's agendas. Shannon Matthews. She just doesn't suit at all.

The McCanns as irresponsible parents who may be complicit in their own daughter's disappearance and possibly death but escape media scrutiny because of their access (a kind of access clearly unavailable to the Matthews or the Luz families for example) to the rich and powerful including those self same barons of the mass media? That's not a story the mass media are comfortable with, clearly.

And they are not comfortable. Because the fact is, despite the clear agenda in the British media at least (viz the BBC story i quoted in last post), disapproval of the McCanns neglectful and then arrogant behaviour is really quite universal. It's not just among working class people.

Richard Littlejohn - a man who has peddled many a prejudice to stir up tabloid outrage on behalf of his own pockets and those of his bosses - was clear (if admitting to be surprised) about the Sun readership's hostility towards the McCanns in the public meeting which PDG reported for us here. Adn certainly the Sun reader demographic is a more working class one than other papers.

Ditto the Mirror which was forced (by whom? oh yes...) to close its forum discussion because of the hostility to the McCanns.

But I'm not a Sun reader or a Mirror reader, and may be variously described as working class or middle class depending on who is looking. And I know nobody - none: lower, middle or upper class - who would routinely leave their kids while going out drinking with friends for the evening. I don't think anyone would.

So - while it is about class, and it is about perceptions, it's also about reality too.

We know already that the McCanns are irresponsible parents - and their continual denials of this fact are part of what has lost them their media campaign so far and caused the great majority of people (in my estimation) to be sceptical of their other claims.

The question remains: what happened to their daughter? And were they involved in her disappearance? Or even her death?

These are hard questions. We still await progress towards the answers.

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 09:41:42 -0000

The Reasonable Man is still out here, and is not unwell, just been busy. And still awaiting real tangible developments in McCann case.

Meanwhile I concur with the views about Shannon Matthews generally expressed here - hope she's found alive and well; fear she will not be; wonder what can have happened, whether accident, abduction by stranger or person known to her, or what? - and agree there is a hideous difference of prejudice compared to the favourable media coverage the McCanns even now continue to get.

And of course I feel very sorry too for the little Spanish girl and her family.

I saw this report on the BBC News site just now:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/...

"McCanns' sympathy over dead girl

"The parents of missing Madeleine McCann have sent their condolences to the family of a missing Spanish girl whose body has been found.

"Spain's Civil Guard said the body of five-year-old Mari Luz Cortes was found decomposed and floating in an estuary near the southern city of Huelva. "

and the picture of the poster which the McCanns put out with their daughter's picture alongside that of Mari Luz Cortes. And I thought I should check in with this forum.

The angle of the story is not the tragic death of a small child, not even their own, but how the McCanns feel. Clarence must be proud of his efforts.

Oh well. Not much more to say on the Spanish case without any more info. I would be extremely surprised to find there was any connection between this and the McCanns case.

btw... this forum works better than some previous incarnations but the page can take forever to load. Do we need another thread initiated by Steve, if he can manage to do it?

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:02:37 -0000

The answer is of course: "Let me buy you a drink."

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:19:13 -0000

The Reasonable Man is still here, and basically still thinks the same as before - if the police have evidence that Maddie was dead at the apartment, it is hard to see how the parents are not implicated in some way. Everything depends on the evidence.

My take on the quietness is... something is happening. It may be as Stanley speculates: plea bargaining. Who knows? The outcome - any outcome - will be even more fascinating than all the speculation has been.

I think it will still take a long time to resolve. When diplomacy enters the picture, everything slows right down. A wrong step on the side of the police could lose them a case even now.

On an off topic note: Stanley's humour could almost earn him a living on the standup circuit. But I think he should major less on Scot stereotypes. The Reasonable Man is probably more Scottish than even Stan himself, yet has nae sporran. And he'd buy ye's all a round, any day of the week. Perhaps it's a west coast/east coast thing? Naw, not even that. Nae stereotypes Stanley!

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 12:11:03 -0000

ooops, sorry

http://tinyurl.com/2o9o2e

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 12:08:08 -0000

A recent post in the 3 Arguido forum argues that if a body was disposed of, it would be more likely to be in the sea - apparently closer to the scene of the abduction - than a lake/reservoir, which can anyway be drained, it seems...

http://www.the3arguidos.net...

The Atlantic rarely yields its secrets. Still not holding my breath.

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:11:45 -0000

Great report PDG, cheers. :-) Have you ever thought of doing this professionally?

In light of the comments about sloppy journalism made by Clarence MItchell as you report ("There are appalling standards of journalism.Journalists are lazy and not checking the facts. Sloppy standards with newspapers.") the following article is of interest. It is the Press Association (news agency) report of the same meeting. Appearing in most papers in the morning and online everywhere, it carries the completely misleading heading: Madeleine's parents 'not suspects' and doesn't even sound like a report of the same meeting PDG has posted about here.

I wonder if Clarence had a hand in the spin cycle here?

copy of PA article follows...

* Published Date: 31 January 2008
* Source: Press Association
* Location: The Press Association Newsdesk

Madeleine's parents 'not suspects'

Madeleine McCann's parents are not suspects, says family spokesman

British police and child protection officers do not suspect Madeleine McCann's parents of involvement in her disappearance, the couple's spokesman has said.
Clarence Mitchell said officials had assured him in private briefings that they were treating the case as one of "rare stranger abduction".

He was speaking as he launched an outspoken attack on the "appalling" standards of some media coverage of the disappearance of the Kate and Gerry McCann's daughter in Portugal in May.

Mr Mitchell, who acted as the couple's spokesman shortly after Madeleine went missing and reprised this role four-and-a-half months ago, said he was completely convinced of their innocence.

He told a packed theatre: "I have never once seen or heard anything from either of them to give me any cause for suspicion in any shape or form.

"I have also had briefings privately from the police and the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) centre that also gave me complete reassurance that the authorities, in this country certainly, are treating this as a case of rare stranger abduction, as they call it."

But Mr Mitchell said he felt "shamed" as a former reporter by the "sloppiness" and "laziness" of certain journalists in covering the story.

Speaking at a debate on The McCanns and the Media at the Lond
on School of Economics, Mr Mitchell said: "What we have taken issue with, and our lawyers continue to review, is the aspect of coverage that is not only distorted but wilfully misrepresentative at times of the facts as we know them or the lack of facts. In that vacuum I'm afraid some very sloppy standards have crept in."

He singled out "the sloppiness and laziness of some of the journalists, and the lack of independence of thought and checking of facts".

Mr Mitchell said he understood putting a story about Madeleine's disappearance on the front page could add 70,000 sales to some newspapers, meaning there was "definitely a commercial imperative" to reporting on the case. He assured the audience they could be certain that "every single one" of the negative stories they read or heard about the McCanns was untrue.

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:36:04 -0000

Jose wrote: "I think that the British press is not interested in doing their own investigation about the Tapas 9 and about the nannies."

Indeed so. The interest of the British media is mainly driven by commercial motives, and it is served by keeping the story running, not by solving it. The BBC, unfortunately for us, and the "quality" papers are closely geared to this machine - so on it goes.

Hence the Daily Maddie/Express; the Sun; Sky news; the Right Honourable Tony Parsons and the Very Reverend Simon Heffer.

It doesnt take much effort to keep a cash cow going compared with the diminishing returns from a serious journalistic investigation.

One more time: if the Portuguese police have reasonable evidence to suggest that the little girl was dead in or around the apartment then it is hard to see how the parents were not involved. I await the slow machinations of the judicial process.

And again: I feel sorry for the McCanns - whatever the truth is, their behaviour since their daughter disappeared has increasingly led people to suspect them, and it has become increasingly desperate - as Jose points out increasingly problematic from the legal poitn of view - which simply makes their case ever less believable.

It remains fascinating and excruciating - but with the latest suspect revelation we have learned nothing new about the fate of Madeleine; and have merely had what already knew about the McCanns confirmed.

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:52:36 -0000

Hmmm. Looks like the McCanns don't have much more to add to the story. I await developments from the police investigations.

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:32:28 -0000

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" (Hunter S Thompson)

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:20:12 -0000

Well worth a listen, cheers John.

If the story was a kite being flown to see how people would respond to a movie deal (as it is confirmed they were talking to a hollywood film company about a film) it hasn't been very well received; and if it was a smokescreen relating to resignations from the fund - well, I think people know about that too.

McCanns: innocent until proven guilty in regard to the legal process ; but venal, stupid, irresponsible and hubristic on the basis of their own public actions since May 3. IMHO.

The legal process... not holding my breath... will be subject to increasing pressure from all sides, including the diplomatic channels.

Still fascinating though.

Re: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later

AReasonableMan — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 13:13:31 -0000

Hallo. Just checking in, not been posting mainly because I've been otherwise engaged and nothing much new for me to say. I still think there is something wrong with the McCanns line of "we know nothing, she was abducted". It seems still to be the case that if the Portuguese police have evidence that Madeleien was dead in or around the apartment, it is hard to see how the parents are not involved.

The situation seems to have become formal and even diplomatic in relation to the question still to be asked of the witnesses now in the UK. It wll be interesting to see where these lead.

And regarding this thread, actually I think the new format seems to work better than the old ones, at least once people get the hang of it.

Thanks to those translating into English (Jose especially) and everyone else who is keeping me informed and linked to other sources - the case remains fascinating, even if I have nothing to add for the time being.