DISQUS

Jenn, I neither said that working class or blue collar working people were stupid nor that they were racist. I said that race could be a factor in support for Obama or not, in that group, meaning in that group or any other. And I most certainly don't think blue collar voters are stupid. To the extent that people from this demographic were supporting Edwards or Clinton from the start, I think they're quite smart. And to the extent that they're not supporting Obama now, I think they're quite smart. If I didn't say that clearly, I hope I'm saying it clearly now.

And I sure as hell don't think that people who supported Clinton were racist by definition. And I'm not too happy that you've interpreted my comments as if these are the things I was either saying or implying.

No, blue collar workers are not a monolith. But they are a demographic and there is a legitimate reason for trying to sort out what their collective interests. If we can't identify collective interests, I'd suggest that's a big part of the problem of trying to mobilize folks collectively, to act in their own best interests.

From Canada so can't vote, but following the elections very carefully. I hope very carefully. Apart from the factors noted in the post and comments, or maybe alongside them, Obama seems to have put aside his talent for high-flown rhetoric and frankly, that was one of his major "plusses". I don't mean to insult him when I say that he had a way of making people trust him or hope in him despite his relative lack of experience and creds. And yeah, I still think that. But he's flattened his message entirely now, in what I assume is his attempt to appeal to a broader spectrum of voters. That sorta isn't "him" and I think the interest in him has simply waned. What was once a truly passionately fought campaign, no matter whom you liked, seems pretty usual and ho-hum. What attracted many people to Obama in the first place was that he appeared to be a new kind of politician. To find out that he is really no different may have put an end to the excitement.

Also, I wonder if the state of the economy hasn't come down so hard on many of the people that ought to be excited Dems that the election campaign just isn't so much in their sights any more. I know that might seem both irrational and counterproducive, but it makes sense to me that people who are trying to figure out how to keep food on their tables and how to get to work without gas in their cars just might not have the time or the energy to figure out who best to lead the country out of disaster.

This makes me wonder about those blue collar, white and mostly male Americans who were pro Edwards and/or Clinton in the first place. I certainly believe that racism plays a role. But it could also be that these voters viewed their material interests to be better represented by a candidate other than Obama. Maybe in that way, these voters have more intelligence than they've been given credit for.

Whatever the case may be, the Obama campaign had better figure a good way to re-ignite broad based interest in his campaign and soon.

I've experienced a real flattening of my own interest in the campaign. And post Obama's hack job on abortion rights, post FISA and whilst watching him hire all of Bill Clinton's economic advisors, I'm with Mr. Shakes. I couldn't vote for this guy even if I could. If you get that.

http://media.www.ucbvu.com/media/storage/paper1...

So Payne is just a poor victim of his past and not a predatory jerk after all? Come now ...

Right. Defend McCain by insulting women. Because hardly anyone will notice. Nicely done boys.

Perhaps I'm just overtired, but it took me a full minute to figure out what this WAS, tilting my head this way and that. I think it was the sheath that I found most odd. I was trying to see if it was some kind of camoflaged MEAT. The carving fork idea fits perfectly, but generally, how entirely odd. Is it really that cool to have one's nation's symbols identified with images that provoke thoughts of violence? And rather nasty and crude violence at that.

Here's one summary of a study on the relationship between dominant social tensions and acts of mass murder:

http://www.albany.edu/scj/jcjpc/vol15is1/Bratin...

It's a pdf as you can see and I must note that it DOESN'T look at sex and gender issues.

Ok look, people like this mass murderer may well find someone to kill under any circumstances, but I doubt it. We have to wonder why we have so many MEN, and by far the greatest number of them ARE men, AND white, who can find no way to express their pain and frustration than by killing people. And WHY they use this particular method in some societies more than others, MUCH more. And WHAT in our societies makes certain people vulnerable targets of insane hatred. I think the better question is, why would these acts NOT be related to obvious social tensions and frankly, to call them "tensions" is to minimize them.

During certain periods of time, in America, mass murders have been more likely to be related to racial tensions, economic insecurity (going "postal"), misogyny, homophobia and so forth. While it MIGHT be true that these men would have killed people anyway, it is, nevertheless, a matter of some importance to sort out WHO they kill. At the very least, this can tell us something about the way that hatred plays itself out along an admitted continuum - some people, like Limbaugh et al, talk; some people act. I'm appalled that some people aren't even interested in doing whatever it's possible to do to correct the social faultlines that make some people more likely to be victimized than others. To draw a rather exaggerated but NOT illogical analogy, Adolf Hitler was able to kill six million Jews and many Roma people, disabled and homosexual people because they were the lowest of the social low in German and European society and nobody gave a shit. Or not enough people gave a shit, anyway. Besides, why on earth would anyone be unwilling to admit that these bigotries have no fecking EFFECT?! Only if they don't give a shite, in my not very humble opinion.

Crap I'm really pissed off now. If there WAS no connection between media-voiced hatred and individual acts of violence, these rightwing nutjobs wouldn't be feelin' so DEFENSIVE about it and might take a minute to think.

I don't see what's so feckin' difficult about making the connection between the hatred and violent speech acts that are rampant in our society and the ways that affects EVERYONE. To see that this may have an even greater and tragic impact on people who are vulnerable to it, for WHATEVER reason seems just plain OBVIOUS. I very much doubt that mass murderers and serial killers in ancient Rome left notes about feminists and liberals. There IS empirical data that shows the link between social "tensions" and individual acts of violence but I'm not going searching for it just now, because I think people should be able to sort this out just by using their brains.

Yeah, um, I realize there's a difference with respect to the issues, but I'm not sure the analogy doesn't hold. You'll have to explain that one to me. All of us are MORE at risk of being harmed or killed within personal relationships - even men - but sometimes, in cases such as this, the hatred leaks out and takes the lives of strangers. Same as with gay and trans bashing and killing, n'est-ce pas? Sorry for mispelling that guy's name.

You know, parts of this conversation are reminding me of what happened after Marc Lepin killed fourteen women at L'Ecole Polytechnique, leaving a note saying his problems were caused by feminists. There are STILL people who say misogyny had nothing to do with his rampage. That's just NUTS.

I think right wing conservatism just mught amount to a mental illness.

hey nightshift66, yeah, I had to explain that many times when I was actually practising law. And I had to explain worse things than that. Like why a woman had to hand her 18 mo old baby girl over to a father who almost certainly had sexually abused her for a weekend. Frankly, that was the end of it all for me. People who do that work with a scintilla of intelligence and understanding have my everlasting respect.

I can't watch it. Having once been a Family Law prof, having once been forced into giving up de facto custody of my children to their brutal but powerful father after a fight that nearly killed me, after the father threatened to kill the children and himself but no one believed me, I simply can't bear this "father's rights" shite - "movement" is correct. Yup, I agree with you Melissa when you say that there do exist situations that are unfair to fathers and I've even had one in my own extended family. But the path of destruction that men like Fain carve in the lives of their "beloved" families is deeper and wider than any women could wreak in a sexist society.

BTW, when my kids got old enough to walk, they walked out of their father's house and back into mine, trailing horrible stories of emotional and physical abuse. Their father is now the proud ex-OWNER of four children, two mine, two from a previous marriage, who haven't seen him or spoken to him in decades. Over which he weeps and blames ... well, guess who?

Oh this is beyond absurd. If this young woman was too drunk to remember the incident, if she was photographed passed out when the photographed sexual assault took place, it can be assumed that she was TOO DRUNK TO GIVE CONSENT. If this judge hadn't been overcome by his unchallenged misogyny, his belief in the most obvious and basic of rape myths, he would have made THAT assumption rather than the OTHER assumption - consent was given. It is almost ALWAYS assumed that women give consent, that they ARE consenting, because that's what misogynist culture believes about women. Oh maybe not. Maybe it's more like no one REALLY believes that consent is necessary.

I hope that a few people can make this NOT THE END OF THIS STORY. 45 to 60 days my ass.

I'm just reading my comment again and realizing it may sound as though I'm crying because commenters have said things I don't like here. NOT what I meant. Crying because so many people do care.

I've been writing about Omar Khadr for months. I watched the video this morning. I'm crying reading what people have written here. I've heard people saying they didn't see anything that bad in the video. Where they expecting to see a full-on waterboarding? Did they WANT to? Is that what we NEED to see before we'll do anything? I have a nephew and two nieces who are just past 15, the age of Omar Khadr when he was taken into US custody. Khadr is 21 now. I have a 24-year old son who is facing possible prison time for marijuana related charges. He would go to a Canadian prison. I would be afraid for him. Very afraid. I can't make myself stop imagining it on some days. And all day today, I've not been able to stop myself from imagining Omar Khadr's time in Guantanamo Bay. I seem to have psychically adopted him. I want to scream "Give me my son back! Don't hurt my son!" He IS our son. He is the son of all of us.

This is just a teeny teeny peek into the world of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Someone please tell me, when will it end? How will we end it?

I know this comment is all over the map. I'm sorry. I'm all over the map too.

Months ago when Obama made his speech in response to the Rev Wright controversy, he said that the US needed a national conversation on race. Before having it, someone needs to start up "Finally, Racism 101"