DISQUS

Daniel,

I hate to say this, but this trash spewing has just made me turn you off for good man. You can chalk it up to me being a sore looser if you wish, but I just can't see listening to someone who admits hating those people he calls haters and thinks I am "shallow, vapid, hypocritical, evil, filthy". I am glad you can be honest, but sometimes it is better to be honest with yourself than letting everyone else know. Hopefully I'll see you at RSA and we can talk, but I won't be reading your filth anymore. Have fun in your world.

Daniel,

I hate to say this, but this trash spewing has just made me turn you off for good man. You can chalk it up to me being a sore looser if you wish, but I just can't see listening to someone who admits hating those people he calls haters and thinks I am "shallow, vapid, hypocritical, evil, filthy". I am glad you can be honest, but sometimes it is better to be honest with yourself than letting everyone else know. Hopefully I'll see you at RSA and we can talk, but I won't be reading your filth anymore. Have fun in your world.

So you expect politicians, who will gain IMMEASURABLE power in socialism, will freely give up power to move to libertarianism when we have "evolved"? Do you think the liberal / socialist politicians are more self-disciplined than the conservative ones? Good luck with that ideal.

So you expect politicians, who will gain IMMEASURABLE power in socialism, will freely give up power to move to libertarianism when we have "evolved"? Do you think the liberal / socialist politicians are more self-disciplined than the conservative ones? Good luck with that ideal.

Daniel (and the other Steve C),

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<li>

You are making a logical jump to suit your taxes argument. Jesus doesn't say you should give all your money to the government, and neither does Paul. Neither one of them said that it is good if the government raises taxes. They simply say you should submit yourself to the government and whoever is in charge because God is sovereign and decides who should be in power. If that person in power decides to raise taxes, then we should pay those taxes. I don't like it, but I will simply protest with my vote the next time around if whoever is in charge raises taxes.

</li>
<li>

The first Steve C is completely correct in his argument that Jesus wanted the church to help the poor, not the government. He told the rich man to sell his possessions and give the money to the poor. He didn't say "sell your possessions and give them to Caesar because he has this great social welfare program". And more government spending does not equal charity.

</li>
<li>

The very argument you make about government nullifies the "soft on crime" argument. If we should submit to the government, then we should submit to the judgment of those over us (like judges in courts. Jesus was talking about me criticizing and condemning someone for their actions (they are sinning in some manner) while I am ignoring my own sin. Read it in context.

</li>
<li>

I honestly struggle on the war issue because I don't think any war is inherently a good thing and that Jesus did preach against war. I was never on board with the invasion of Iraq, though I can't say I wasn't happy when Saddam's regime was taken down (some people in this world are just evil, and it is hard for me to say they shouldn't be stamped out). That being said, taking Jesus' preaching out of context of the entire Bible is the same as taking a single verse out of context and twisting it to meet your needs. There are multiple instances of justified wars in the Bible, but that is an argument all on its own. :) I will just say that I struggle with the war issue on all fronts because I hate to see anyone suffer and die.

</li>
</ul>

Thanks for the provocative post (though I would love it if you could calm down the tone and the assumption that we conservative Christians are a bunch of slack-brained idiots who immediately ignore your arguments as worthless - you make me think).

Michael

Daniel (and the other Steve C),

<ul>
<li>

You are making a logical jump to suit your taxes argument. Jesus doesn't say you should give all your money to the government, and neither does Paul. Neither one of them said that it is good if the government raises taxes. They simply say you should submit yourself to the government and whoever is in charge because God is sovereign and decides who should be in power. If that person in power decides to raise taxes, then we should pay those taxes. I don't like it, but I will simply protest with my vote the next time around if whoever is in charge raises taxes.

</li>
<li>

The first Steve C is completely correct in his argument that Jesus wanted the church to help the poor, not the government. He told the rich man to sell his possessions and give the money to the poor. He didn't say "sell your possessions and give them to Caesar because he has this great social welfare program". And more government spending does not equal charity.

</li>
<li>

The very argument you make about government nullifies the "soft on crime" argument. If we should submit to the government, then we should submit to the judgment of those over us (like judges in courts. Jesus was talking about me criticizing and condemning someone for their actions (they are sinning in some manner) while I am ignoring my own sin. Read it in context.

</li>
<li>

I honestly struggle on the war issue because I don't think any war is inherently a good thing and that Jesus did preach against war. I was never on board with the invasion of Iraq, though I can't say I wasn't happy when Saddam's regime was taken down (some people in this world are just evil, and it is hard for me to say they shouldn't be stamped out). That being said, taking Jesus' preaching out of context of the entire Bible is the same as taking a single verse out of context and twisting it to meet your needs. There are multiple instances of justified wars in the Bible, but that is an argument all on its own. :) I will just say that I struggle with the war issue on all fronts because I hate to see anyone suffer and die.

</li>
</ul>

Thanks for the provocative post (though I would love it if you could calm down the tone and the assumption that we conservative Christians are a bunch of slack-brained idiots who immediately ignore your arguments as worthless - you make me think).

Michael

Dan,

I grew up in Mississippi around a BUNCH of racist people, including my father, uncles, aunts, and very close friends to the family. I was raised to hate black people. I went to school with a lot of black people, and I had a couple of close black friends (hope that didn't sound cliche'), so I was blessed to have that so I didn't become a complete racist, though it still went pretty deep. When I got out of that world and went into the military, I saw even more of what people were really like and who they were, and it drove more of those feelings out of me.

But you know what? I still struggle with it. I fight against it. I make sure my kids know that everyone is equal (truth be told, we don't even make an issue out of skin color or whatever, so they really don't know anything about different races - everyone is a person to them). And I have gone so far to try to get this crap out of my system that I have supported Alan Keyes for President. I agreed with most of his policies and beliefs (though I have seen him go a little bit nutter in the last few years), but the biggest reason I wanted to vote for him was to prove to myself that I could vote for a black man, and because I wanted the world to see that the USA could have a black man as president.

And you know what? I actually thought about supporting Obama because of those same reason, even though he is about as far to the left as you can get without being an out-and-out pinko communist. That is the depth of my guilt about the feelings I fight back all the time. But then I woke up.

Obama is going to ruin this country if he becomes president. He is going to raise taxes. He is going to socialize medicine. He is going to kowtow to the whim of every other country that thinks we are too big and too powerful and aren't doing our part for the "global community", even though we do more than anyone else (another debate). And I will be damned before I vote for someone like that because I feel guilty. That is an improper motivation, and I will not do it.

It is a shame that people will not vote for someone because of race. It sucks. But putting out crappy polls like this is done because the liberal media and other idiots out there want to have the race card ready to draw when Obama loses the election. Plain and simple. And you fell for it.

Dan,

I grew up in Mississippi around a BUNCH of racist people, including my father, uncles, aunts, and very close friends to the family. I was raised to hate black people. I went to school with a lot of black people, and I had a couple of close black friends (hope that didn't sound cliche'), so I was blessed to have that so I didn't become a complete racist, though it still went pretty deep. When I got out of that world and went into the military, I saw even more of what people were really like and who they were, and it drove more of those feelings out of me.

But you know what? I still struggle with it. I fight against it. I make sure my kids know that everyone is equal (truth be told, we don't even make an issue out of skin color or whatever, so they really don't know anything about different races - everyone is a person to them). And I have gone so far to try to get this crap out of my system that I have supported Alan Keyes for President. I agreed with most of his policies and beliefs (though I have seen him go a little bit nutter in the last few years), but the biggest reason I wanted to vote for him was to prove to myself that I could vote for a black man, and because I wanted the world to see that the USA could have a black man as president.

And you know what? I actually thought about supporting Obama because of those same reason, even though he is about as far to the left as you can get without being an out-and-out pinko communist. That is the depth of my guilt about the feelings I fight back all the time. But then I woke up.

Obama is going to ruin this country if he becomes president. He is going to raise taxes. He is going to socialize medicine. He is going to kowtow to the whim of every other country that thinks we are too big and too powerful and aren't doing our part for the "global community", even though we do more than anyone else (another debate). And I will be damned before I vote for someone like that because I feel guilty. That is an improper motivation, and I will not do it.

It is a shame that people will not vote for someone because of race. It sucks. But putting out crappy polls like this is done because the liberal media and other idiots out there want to have the race card ready to draw when Obama loses the election. Plain and simple. And you fell for it.

Holy crap, an issue we agree on!! Awesome stuff.

Holy crap, an issue we agree on!! Awesome stuff.

Dave,

Don't know if it has been recognized, but Houston has had three meetings so far (BayouSec). We have a Google group and a LinkedIn group. Anyone in the area should give me a shout.

Michael Farnum

Daniel,

<ol>
<li>Like I said , I actually was going to move over to Mac at home because I think there are compelling reasons.</li>
<li>However, it really came down to price, and I don't see the compelling reasons equaling over $1000.</li>
<li>I never claimed I wasn't emotional about the issue. I think I am fairly self aware. I at least try to be. And I meant that post to be emotional. I am not a fanboy of either of the platforms, but I am SICK of the snobbery. From the commercials (which I find to be funny) to this issue with the blogs, I think it is all just ridiculous.</li>
</ol>

Daniel,

<ol>
<li>Like I said , I actually was going to move over to Mac at home because I think there are compelling reasons.</li>
<li>However, it really came down to price, and I don't see the compelling reasons equaling over $1000.</li>
<li>I never claimed I wasn't emotional about the issue. I think I am fairly self aware. I at least try to be. And I meant that post to be emotional. I am not a fanboy of either of the platforms, but I am SICK of the snobbery. From the commercials (which I find to be funny) to this issue with the blogs, I think it is all just ridiculous.</li>
</ol>

Daniel,

See, that is what is weird. My brother-in-law served a tour in Iraq with the 101st, and now he is in Afghanistan, and I am not hearing any of those moral problems. He is upbeat and so are the soldiers around him, and he is front line every day (of course, there really is not much of a rear echelon in a war like this). I am not saying constant tours doesn't wear down morale. That is always the issue with war. That is not going to change. But that whole argument comes down to whether or not you agree with the war, not whether Bush knows what is best for the military. Of course what is best for the soldier, airman, whatever is to not be fighting a war. But sometimes choices have to be made, and soldiers understand that.

I fought in Desert Storm in a tank. My morale sucked for a while. But I understood why I was over there, even at 17 years old. I wasn't there for a year or more, so I can't fully understand what they're going through now, but I do know something of it.

I believe it was General Schwarzkopf that said something to the effect of any soldier that is worth his salt is anti-war, but there are things worth fighting for. I have had my doubts about going over to Iraq, but it happened, and now we have to stick it out. We are too close to winning this thing. Of course, if the terrorists are just waiting for Obama to get elected so our military gets pulled out, then we will have another story.

Daniel,

See, that is what is weird. My brother-in-law served a tour in Iraq with the 101st, and now he is in Afghanistan, and I am not hearing any of those moral problems. He is upbeat and so are the soldiers around him, and he is front line every day (of course, there really is not much of a rear echelon in a war like this). I am not saying constant tours doesn't wear down morale. That is always the issue with war. That is not going to change. But that whole argument comes down to whether or not you agree with the war, not whether Bush knows what is best for the military. Of course what is best for the soldier, airman, whatever is to not be fighting a war. But sometimes choices have to be made, and soldiers understand that.

I fought in Desert Storm in a tank. My morale sucked for a while. But I understood why I was over there, even at 17 years old. I wasn't there for a year or more, so I can't fully understand what they're going through now, but I do know something of it.

I believe it was General Schwarzkopf that said something to the effect of any soldier that is worth his salt is anti-war, but there are things worth fighting for. I have had my doubts about going over to Iraq, but it happened, and now we have to stick it out. We are too close to winning this thing. Of course, if the terrorists are just waiting for Obama to get elected so our military gets pulled out, then we will have another story.

I agree that Obama seems to be fairly honest about his positions, even though I am at the opposite end of the political spectrum. Anyone who knows anything about Hillary knows she is just in it for herself. Of course, a politician is still a politician.

And I have to say that even if I was a Democrat, my military background would make me cringe at either of these candidates. I am not a single-issue voter, but military matters hold a position of high importance for me. Obama doesn't even know the difference between Memorial Day and Veteran's Day. Esprit de corps in the military was at an all time low during Clinton the First's reign because of his policies. Nope, McCain may not be all I want politically (who is?), but at least he knows what is important when it comes to the military.

I agree that Obama seems to be fairly honest about his positions, even though I am at the opposite end of the political spectrum. Anyone who knows anything about Hillary knows she is just in it for herself. Of course, a politician is still a politician.

And I have to say that even if I was a Democrat, my military background would make me cringe at either of these candidates. I am not a single-issue voter, but military matters hold a position of high importance for me. Obama doesn't even know the difference between Memorial Day and Veteran's Day. Esprit de corps in the military was at an all time low during Clinton the First's reign because of his policies. Nope, McCain may not be all I want politically (who is?), but at least he knows what is important when it comes to the military.

Dan,

How did I miss you, man? I was there! Too many people in that room, I guess.

Michael

Dan,

How did I miss you, man? I was there! Too many people in that room, I guess.

Michael

Daniel,

Wow. That is almost all I can get out about this post. Blaming false morality, belief in God, and living in the South for more divorces, teen pregnancy, etc. Jumping from your sources to your conclusion is a logic leap of immense proportions that deserves congratulations.

Really, Daniel. I think that is the harshest and most bigoted statement I have heard you make. Come on man.

Michael

Daniel,

Wow. That is almost all I can get out about this post. Blaming false morality, belief in God, and living in the South for more divorces, teen pregnancy, etc. Jumping from your sources to your conclusion is a logic leap of immense proportions that deserves congratulations.

Really, Daniel. I think that is the harshest and most bigoted statement I have heard you make. Come on man.

Michael

I'll be there. Let's meet up. We may not agree on some stuff, but it would be great to meet.

You going to the bloggers gathering?

Michael Farnum

I'll be there. Let's meet up. We may not agree on some stuff, but it would be great to meet.

You going to the bloggers gathering?

Michael Farnum

@ Daniel,

This is one of those "agree to disagree" points that atheists and Christians always have. You believe the default is not to believe, while I believe the default is to believe. I think it makes sense that there is a creator. You think it makes sense for there not to be a creator. I look at the earth and all of creation and cannot fathom that this is a matter of chance and happenstance. You look at the earth and the universe and say, "Wow, all of this just happeneded with no external influence." Your view befuddles me. Mine befuddles you. Just two different ways of thinking.

But you are still making a mistake. Some people believe in a different god or gods than I do, as you point out. The reason I do not believe in the other gods is because my studies have led me to believe that Jesus has a real truth claim (yes, I was raised Christian, but I have strived to reason out why I believe as well). But regardless, they still do believe in the divine. They and I have that in common. Even the people who worship a pink unicorn (which is getting really old BTW - can you guys come up with another colorful mythical figure please). You and your fellow atheists do not believe in anything divine AT ALL. Which means you BELIEVE there is no creator or creators. Atheist means "non-theist". It is a belief. The argument that atheism is not a belief system is another one of those befuddling things for me.

@ Daniel,

This is one of those "agree to disagree" points that atheists and Christians always have. You believe the default is not to believe, while I believe the default is to believe. I think it makes sense that there is a creator. You think it makes sense for there not to be a creator. I look at the earth and all of creation and cannot fathom that this is a matter of chance and happenstance. You look at the earth and the universe and say, "Wow, all of this just happeneded with no external influence." Your view befuddles me. Mine befuddles you. Just two different ways of thinking.

But you are still making a mistake. Some people believe in a different god or gods than I do, as you point out. The reason I do not believe in the other gods is because my studies have led me to believe that Jesus has a real truth claim (yes, I was raised Christian, but I have strived to reason out why I believe as well). But regardless, they still do believe in the divine. They and I have that in common. Even the people who worship a pink unicorn (which is getting really old BTW - can you guys come up with another colorful mythical figure please). You and your fellow atheists do not believe in anything divine AT ALL. Which means you BELIEVE there is no creator or creators. Atheist means "non-theist". It is a belief. The argument that atheism is not a belief system is another one of those befuddling things for me.