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Jonathan
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4 years ago
in The inevitable death of God on Forever Expanding Awareness in Liberation
Andrew,
Whilst I greatly enjoy reading what you have to say, I am also vividly aware that in my experience there is a level of conceptualisation in what you've shared that is innately of little interest to me. I start to feel spiritually claustrophobic. I get the impression you have read far more and are far better versed in traditional eastern perspectives on Enlightenment and the spiritual path than I am. I admire your persistent seeking in this field.
I get to see in your display of words that which has for much of my life moved me to avoid spiritual tradition as much as possible. It was a choice-less choice. One that arose out of a strong propensity to stick with what my own inner experience reveals to me from moment to moment.
Explanations of various levels of consciousness do little for me, except perhaps to make me aware that I have an aversion to such things. I don't wish to imply that I negate such things nor that I invalidate them, for I am intimately aware that EVERYTHING has it's place and function within the perfection of All That Is and within the perceived world of she who experiences such things. I simply speak for myself and the way in which God / Life / Infinity moves me and moves through me.
Tell me, have you unleashed (or "attained" if that works better for you) within your experience of Andrew this thing you call "self-realisation" ?
Has "God Realisation" emerged within your awareness ?
Is that where you reside in this moment?
And this "Unity consciousness"... in your own direct experience, where are you at with this thing you call "unity consciousness" ?
And these saints you talk about... how many of them have you met in this experience of time you call "Andrew's life so far" ?
Perhaps more importantly... how many of these so-called "saints" have you failed to meet ?
Yes, of course the stillness and deep peace within the consciousness of Man is "a path to God"... and it is this path that people reading these words are seeking in one way or another. It is also this particular "path to God" that is so often veiled by the insane concepts of God that most of the people in this world are infected and burdened with.
As for "God-proper", I can't claim to know just what you are talking about.
I've never met this chap Nisargadatta --- in fact I've never even heard of him until now --- so I am really in no position to comment. I guess he was someone interesting, otherwise you wouldn't have heard about him either, right? Where can I meet him?
I am not sure what you mean by "pep talks" either. Boy oh boy... please excuse my ignorance.
When I say we should avoid personifying God I say this in direct response to the way in which the majority of people (in my experience) personify God.
The bible says "God create man in his own likeness".
I would be inclined to say that "Man (the ego-mind) fashioned God in his own likeness".
As far as I can ascertain the concept that most believers in God hold with regards to who and what God is are really just a projection of their own ego-mind, the very same projection that results in their perception that they are somehow something less than what they really are. Their own persona as a limited ego concept. God it something "out there".
How many people look UPWARD when they pray?
Where do they think they are looking?
What are they looking upward toward? Heaven perhaps? Does heaven, and God for that matter, have a geographical position?
Then the prayer itself... how often do people request something of God; attempt to enter into deals with God, to bargain with God, to thank God, to blame God --- like some sort of almighty paternal figurehead that will look after them if they are a good boy or girl and punish them if they are "naughty" or "bad".
Again, I don't negate this sort of madness within the experience of those who entertain such things. What is real for them is real for them. Yahoo !!
That is really none of my business and of little interest to me. Yet I must too remain true to the experience that unfolds within my own awareness. If, in the eyes of man, this stance happens to appear to go against what some people experience as valid and real in their world then so be it. That too is none of my business, and it's quite okay with me. It is what it is --- consciousness unfolding. I am against no-thing, yet something within "me" is very much "for the the Truth", and that Truth is only true to the extent that it is unfolding within That which I Am and That which I am Aware.
If my stance toward Truth and my apparent rejection of much of what many people have come to value so greatly in this world and within their so-called "spiritual life" --- such as their insane concept of God --- and in their perception of themselves... if my apparent rejection of these things offends them or results in a person feeling disturbed then I can only conclude that they were already deeply insecure in what their perception was showing to them in the first place, and this disturbance is the very thing that --- with awareness --- might lead them down the rabbit hole (so to speak).
Not that I aim for this nor do I make an effort to unveil the disturbance that is within most people. Most people have a pretty good handle on that themselves. I know I do. That's not my place nor my role in this world, yet there are people that will use Jonathan for that function in their world, and I remain present with that.
"accepting the impersonal absolute while killing a personal God" --- hmmmm, perhaps it would be wise to again read what I wrote, for I continue to get the impression that you've not understood what I've said. It's likely this is a result of my failure to explain things clearly enough. I trust that the innate Genius within you will manage to figure it out despite such failing.
"God" is just a word, a symbol. It is a symbol that for many is charged with a huge amount of concept and through-forms. Concept that is maintained through the illusion of the ego-mind and hence is against the realisation of THAT which humanity is attempting to refer to with this word "God" that you and I are using.
I have not stated that people should deny their experience of That which we call God. In fact, on the contrary, I might be inclined to say that their direct experience of God is about the only thing they should perhaps bother to value.
I gather from what you are saying that you either have a very good intellectual understanding of these things such as "God" and the spiritual path etcetera or (perhaps AND) you have some direct experience of what you've shared. If the later is true then Amen to That. May it pour forth from you heart and mind into the world you perceive around you and within you. What a blessing. What a gift. What a joy. May that Light within the lucidity of your mind arose such Light in those people you are here in this world to help Heal.
As a dear friend in Switzerland would say.... either you've got it, or not. If you've got it, then great, if you haven't then forget it.
It's perfect either way. As you know.
With love,
Jonathan
Whilst I greatly enjoy reading what you have to say, I am also vividly aware that in my experience there is a level of conceptualisation in what you've shared that is innately of little interest to me. I start to feel spiritually claustrophobic. I get the impression you have read far more and are far better versed in traditional eastern perspectives on Enlightenment and the spiritual path than I am. I admire your persistent seeking in this field.
I get to see in your display of words that which has for much of my life moved me to avoid spiritual tradition as much as possible. It was a choice-less choice. One that arose out of a strong propensity to stick with what my own inner experience reveals to me from moment to moment.
Explanations of various levels of consciousness do little for me, except perhaps to make me aware that I have an aversion to such things. I don't wish to imply that I negate such things nor that I invalidate them, for I am intimately aware that EVERYTHING has it's place and function within the perfection of All That Is and within the perceived world of she who experiences such things. I simply speak for myself and the way in which God / Life / Infinity moves me and moves through me.
Tell me, have you unleashed (or "attained" if that works better for you) within your experience of Andrew this thing you call "self-realisation" ?
Has "God Realisation" emerged within your awareness ?
Is that where you reside in this moment?
And this "Unity consciousness"... in your own direct experience, where are you at with this thing you call "unity consciousness" ?
And these saints you talk about... how many of them have you met in this experience of time you call "Andrew's life so far" ?
Perhaps more importantly... how many of these so-called "saints" have you failed to meet ?
Yes, of course the stillness and deep peace within the consciousness of Man is "a path to God"... and it is this path that people reading these words are seeking in one way or another. It is also this particular "path to God" that is so often veiled by the insane concepts of God that most of the people in this world are infected and burdened with.
As for "God-proper", I can't claim to know just what you are talking about.
I've never met this chap Nisargadatta --- in fact I've never even heard of him until now --- so I am really in no position to comment. I guess he was someone interesting, otherwise you wouldn't have heard about him either, right? Where can I meet him?
I am not sure what you mean by "pep talks" either. Boy oh boy... please excuse my ignorance.
When I say we should avoid personifying God I say this in direct response to the way in which the majority of people (in my experience) personify God.
The bible says "God create man in his own likeness".
I would be inclined to say that "Man (the ego-mind) fashioned God in his own likeness".
As far as I can ascertain the concept that most believers in God hold with regards to who and what God is are really just a projection of their own ego-mind, the very same projection that results in their perception that they are somehow something less than what they really are. Their own persona as a limited ego concept. God it something "out there".
How many people look UPWARD when they pray?
Where do they think they are looking?
What are they looking upward toward? Heaven perhaps? Does heaven, and God for that matter, have a geographical position?
Then the prayer itself... how often do people request something of God; attempt to enter into deals with God, to bargain with God, to thank God, to blame God --- like some sort of almighty paternal figurehead that will look after them if they are a good boy or girl and punish them if they are "naughty" or "bad".
Again, I don't negate this sort of madness within the experience of those who entertain such things. What is real for them is real for them. Yahoo !!
That is really none of my business and of little interest to me. Yet I must too remain true to the experience that unfolds within my own awareness. If, in the eyes of man, this stance happens to appear to go against what some people experience as valid and real in their world then so be it. That too is none of my business, and it's quite okay with me. It is what it is --- consciousness unfolding. I am against no-thing, yet something within "me" is very much "for the the Truth", and that Truth is only true to the extent that it is unfolding within That which I Am and That which I am Aware.
If my stance toward Truth and my apparent rejection of much of what many people have come to value so greatly in this world and within their so-called "spiritual life" --- such as their insane concept of God --- and in their perception of themselves... if my apparent rejection of these things offends them or results in a person feeling disturbed then I can only conclude that they were already deeply insecure in what their perception was showing to them in the first place, and this disturbance is the very thing that --- with awareness --- might lead them down the rabbit hole (so to speak).
Not that I aim for this nor do I make an effort to unveil the disturbance that is within most people. Most people have a pretty good handle on that themselves. I know I do. That's not my place nor my role in this world, yet there are people that will use Jonathan for that function in their world, and I remain present with that.
"accepting the impersonal absolute while killing a personal God" --- hmmmm, perhaps it would be wise to again read what I wrote, for I continue to get the impression that you've not understood what I've said. It's likely this is a result of my failure to explain things clearly enough. I trust that the innate Genius within you will manage to figure it out despite such failing.
"God" is just a word, a symbol. It is a symbol that for many is charged with a huge amount of concept and through-forms. Concept that is maintained through the illusion of the ego-mind and hence is against the realisation of THAT which humanity is attempting to refer to with this word "God" that you and I are using.
I have not stated that people should deny their experience of That which we call God. In fact, on the contrary, I might be inclined to say that their direct experience of God is about the only thing they should perhaps bother to value.
I gather from what you are saying that you either have a very good intellectual understanding of these things such as "God" and the spiritual path etcetera or (perhaps AND) you have some direct experience of what you've shared. If the later is true then Amen to That. May it pour forth from you heart and mind into the world you perceive around you and within you. What a blessing. What a gift. What a joy. May that Light within the lucidity of your mind arose such Light in those people you are here in this world to help Heal.
As a dear friend in Switzerland would say.... either you've got it, or not. If you've got it, then great, if you haven't then forget it.
It's perfect either way. As you know.
With love,
Jonathan
4 years ago
in The inevitable death of God on Forever Expanding Awareness in Liberation
Hi Andrew,
As I agree whole-heartedly with what you have said I am not entirely sure what it is you are referring to as an "imbalance" in my "comments about God". I suspect either you have misinterpreted something I wrote or I simply need further elaboration from you on the point you are making re the imbalance.
As for your other comments... bravo !!
I enjoyed reading what you have shared. Thanks for taking the time to write as you have.
And yes, as for the balance of the Feminine and Masculine approaches to "life, the universe, and everything", I agree with what you have said and I shall add that I feel that this is why the death of God is inevitable. As per the angle taken in my article, I am of course referring to the "concept of God" as opposed to That which is symbolised by this word "God". This "death" is inevitable because that portion of the human collective that maintains a perspective on God (those that "Believe in God" and those that "Do not believe in God") are for the most part very much adhering to a rather "masculine" perspective of this God that they do or do not believe in.
The sublime loving softness of Spirit / God / Infinity (etc) is all too often missed in the masculine view of That which we are referring to.
With love and Peace,
Jonathan
As I agree whole-heartedly with what you have said I am not entirely sure what it is you are referring to as an "imbalance" in my "comments about God". I suspect either you have misinterpreted something I wrote or I simply need further elaboration from you on the point you are making re the imbalance.
As for your other comments... bravo !!
I enjoyed reading what you have shared. Thanks for taking the time to write as you have.
And yes, as for the balance of the Feminine and Masculine approaches to "life, the universe, and everything", I agree with what you have said and I shall add that I feel that this is why the death of God is inevitable. As per the angle taken in my article, I am of course referring to the "concept of God" as opposed to That which is symbolised by this word "God". This "death" is inevitable because that portion of the human collective that maintains a perspective on God (those that "Believe in God" and those that "Do not believe in God") are for the most part very much adhering to a rather "masculine" perspective of this God that they do or do not believe in.
The sublime loving softness of Spirit / God / Infinity (etc) is all too often missed in the masculine view of That which we are referring to.
With love and Peace,
Jonathan
4 years ago
in You are the path on Forever Expanding Awareness in Liberation
(NOTE: part of my response to a slight variation on Amber's comment is located at Dialogue with a friend)
Hi Amber,
In regards to ego-self and Divine Self, and self-realisation as opposed to Self-Realisation. Well, I don't have an immediate brief answer to this question. I could explain it in a much longer reply but I don't feel to just now (most likely because I want to go to bed shortly). What I will say is that the ego is always on the path of "attaining" something. It also seldom takes responsibility for what it is experiencing. It tends to project outward rather than turn everything inward. Hence if you are operating from that place then you will tend to see yourself relating to life in that way.
Divine Self (as you put it) has nothing to attain. It already is what it is --- exactly as God created it. It's only interest in this world is in letting go --- in release. Release of that which is not real so that you wake up to what IS real. Divine Self tends to turn everything inward as opposed to projecting outward. Divine Self is joyful and peaceful. Ego-self is disturbed and quite often rather messed up.
Now, neither is right or wrong. Even if you experiencing yourself approaching life from what you might identify as "ego self", your Divine Self is untouched by this. Hence it is a matter of choice (at some level). So the key is not to judge yourself when you are aware that you're operating from what you might call ego-self. No, rather the key is to embrace everything. Love. Accept. Allow. Release. You can only release that which you are willing to gently and lovingly hold in your hand. Don't fight with the ego-self. It's neither good nor bad. It is whatever you make it.
In regards to the "Created by you" part. Well, it's not so much that you are choosing suffering. The suffering part of your experience --- I would say --- is actually about how you choose to relate to what you are perceiving in your world. Resistance to what is tends to create the experience of pain. Pain is not "Bad" or "negative" --- albeit it is not exactly pleasant when one is engaged in the experience of it. Pain is a perfect "mechanism" for waking us up to where and how we are forgetting our Divinity in any given moment.
Also, this word "choice" --- It doesn't feel accurate to say "you have chosen absolutely everything that has happened to you on this Earth". Yes, choices are made. But the consequences are governed by certain laws and principles that have nothing to do with your choices (at least not at a level you're likely to be conscious of).
If I choose to bang my head against a wall and I feel pain in my head as a result, I have not exactly chosen to feel pain in my head. No, I simply choose to bang my head against a wall. The pain I feel in my head afterwards is simple a natural consequence of that action within this world of matter. We make so many choices in every moment right throughout time and space and the consequences of these can get rather intricate and complicated (from a human point of view). This is actualy a way of describing Karma.
That's all for now.
With love,
Jonathan
PS. I am not sure what you mean by this sentence: "I’m wondering does there has to be ‘wounding’ at play with what arrives (or rather I have chosen) in my life and if love just dances with love, no unravelling required, no story to dismantle."
Hi Amber,
In regards to ego-self and Divine Self, and self-realisation as opposed to Self-Realisation. Well, I don't have an immediate brief answer to this question. I could explain it in a much longer reply but I don't feel to just now (most likely because I want to go to bed shortly). What I will say is that the ego is always on the path of "attaining" something. It also seldom takes responsibility for what it is experiencing. It tends to project outward rather than turn everything inward. Hence if you are operating from that place then you will tend to see yourself relating to life in that way.
Divine Self (as you put it) has nothing to attain. It already is what it is --- exactly as God created it. It's only interest in this world is in letting go --- in release. Release of that which is not real so that you wake up to what IS real. Divine Self tends to turn everything inward as opposed to projecting outward. Divine Self is joyful and peaceful. Ego-self is disturbed and quite often rather messed up.
Now, neither is right or wrong. Even if you experiencing yourself approaching life from what you might identify as "ego self", your Divine Self is untouched by this. Hence it is a matter of choice (at some level). So the key is not to judge yourself when you are aware that you're operating from what you might call ego-self. No, rather the key is to embrace everything. Love. Accept. Allow. Release. You can only release that which you are willing to gently and lovingly hold in your hand. Don't fight with the ego-self. It's neither good nor bad. It is whatever you make it.
In regards to the "Created by you" part. Well, it's not so much that you are choosing suffering. The suffering part of your experience --- I would say --- is actually about how you choose to relate to what you are perceiving in your world. Resistance to what is tends to create the experience of pain. Pain is not "Bad" or "negative" --- albeit it is not exactly pleasant when one is engaged in the experience of it. Pain is a perfect "mechanism" for waking us up to where and how we are forgetting our Divinity in any given moment.
Also, this word "choice" --- It doesn't feel accurate to say "you have chosen absolutely everything that has happened to you on this Earth". Yes, choices are made. But the consequences are governed by certain laws and principles that have nothing to do with your choices (at least not at a level you're likely to be conscious of).
If I choose to bang my head against a wall and I feel pain in my head as a result, I have not exactly chosen to feel pain in my head. No, I simply choose to bang my head against a wall. The pain I feel in my head afterwards is simple a natural consequence of that action within this world of matter. We make so many choices in every moment right throughout time and space and the consequences of these can get rather intricate and complicated (from a human point of view). This is actualy a way of describing Karma.
That's all for now.
With love,
Jonathan
PS. I am not sure what you mean by this sentence: "I’m wondering does there has to be ‘wounding’ at play with what arrives (or rather I have chosen) in my life and if love just dances with love, no unravelling required, no story to dismantle."
4 years ago
in Spiritual Warriors on Forever Expanding Awareness in Liberation
Hello Nathan,
I thank you for taking the time and energy to write your comments.
To me "belief" in God is perhaps a step along the path. But as the ancient Kahuna of Hawaii discovered --- belief is only required for that which is not real.
I do not believe in God. I do not believe in Jesus. I do not believe in the bible either.
I invite you to take a really good look at what the man we now call Jesus Christ ACTUALLY had to say. Read the bible with an open mind. BUT also read other texts like the Dead Sea Scrolls and the work of the Essenes and the Emerald Tablets of Thoth, and the Gospel of St Thomas.
There I think you will find that the man we now call Jesus was in fact no different from you or I. He was not a Christian. He was not someone that mindlessly "believed" in what religions in his day were trying to put across to humankind as "Truth".
I invite you to explore within yourself what it is to be a Christ as opposed to a Christian --- what it means to be a Buddha as opposed to a Buddhist. This is what these great teachers were showing as they way toward. Not to follow them as some sort of saviour but rather to be like them --- bring about our own Salvation and the Salvation of the world we each live in.
"Baptism in the NAME of JESUS for the remission of sins" is all very well but to me this does little or nothing if the person going through with it doesn't eventually realise that they are their own Salvation. "Believing in Jesus" is not, in my view, a path that will result in becoming a Christ. Rather, to me, it is about discerning and applying the Path this man we call Jesus actually applied in his own life. That is what makes a person into a Christ as opposed to a Christian.
Feel free to comment further.
With love and blessings,
Jonathan Evatt
I thank you for taking the time and energy to write your comments.
To me "belief" in God is perhaps a step along the path. But as the ancient Kahuna of Hawaii discovered --- belief is only required for that which is not real.
I do not believe in God. I do not believe in Jesus. I do not believe in the bible either.
I invite you to take a really good look at what the man we now call Jesus Christ ACTUALLY had to say. Read the bible with an open mind. BUT also read other texts like the Dead Sea Scrolls and the work of the Essenes and the Emerald Tablets of Thoth, and the Gospel of St Thomas.
There I think you will find that the man we now call Jesus was in fact no different from you or I. He was not a Christian. He was not someone that mindlessly "believed" in what religions in his day were trying to put across to humankind as "Truth".
I invite you to explore within yourself what it is to be a Christ as opposed to a Christian --- what it means to be a Buddha as opposed to a Buddhist. This is what these great teachers were showing as they way toward. Not to follow them as some sort of saviour but rather to be like them --- bring about our own Salvation and the Salvation of the world we each live in.
"Baptism in the NAME of JESUS for the remission of sins" is all very well but to me this does little or nothing if the person going through with it doesn't eventually realise that they are their own Salvation. "Believing in Jesus" is not, in my view, a path that will result in becoming a Christ. Rather, to me, it is about discerning and applying the Path this man we call Jesus actually applied in his own life. That is what makes a person into a Christ as opposed to a Christian.
Feel free to comment further.
With love and blessings,
Jonathan Evatt
