DISQUS

cheers bud :) handy to know

I think it's been pretty clear all along Saputo won't be going into MLS without Gillett. Anyways we should know within a month who ended up actually applying.

MLS has current USMNT reserves, future USMNT stars, and former USMNT stars. I don't see how you can say it has nothing?

I think USL and MLS now have pretty similar grassroot efforts.

What USL side in this CL has a 2,000 seat stadium? Bogus fact?

Washed up foreign players? Steve Guppy anyone?

Many here were talking up USL as a rival. So I was responding. A few within USL have gone on the record the last few years talking up a rivalry (including Marcos) but I think it's bluster and most sane USL folks no that isn't the case.

Garber said "we want our clubs to focus on the league". Can he be any more clear. Of course it's his job to hype success and minimize failuire. He's paid well to do that. Unfortunately I'm paid nothing but I'll take donations.

1 year of bad results in CONCACAF CL will mean squat towards MLS's international reputation long-term. If this becomes a pattern year after year with USL teams doing something in the Spring knockout stages, it might get some foreign notice. International credibility is fairly meaningless. Foreign fans outside CONCACAF won't care for MLS in the next generation no matter what. Unless MLS teams start finishing top 2 in the Club World Cup, they won't care if MLS wins CONCACAF CL or not.

This is good press for USL. They can matter within their own markets and can get a boost from this. I don't see much more coming out of CL results. Call me when Portland, Vancouver, and Montreal all pull their MLS expansion applications. Long-term, CL group stages as they are now are mostly a waste of time.

"international credibility"???

Do you really think anyone outside of CONCACAF cares 1 bit about results in the CONCACAF CL? I'd bet 99% of soccer fans (and probably journalists) in Europe don't know we have a CONCACAF CL.

MLS 2.0 was formed at the latest in 2001 after contraction.

What does USL teams performances speak about the quality of MFL? Is it crap too? Did anyone see the empty stadium for Cruz Azul against Saprissa? Mexican fans aren't on board yet. CONCACAF CL has potential but it's time hasn't come yet. Mexican teams take the region for granted and will play reserve lineups on the road. MLS isn't deep enough. Ok, blame MLS, but I think they're financially much better of than USL at this point. It's not charity and MLS has done well to cement the larger US markets. The crowds at MFL/MLS games seem to indicate that these games aren't generating much revenue yet, and I can only imagine what Warner is making off of this.

I've patiently sat through just about every televised Champion's Cup game the last 4 years, but with the European leagues revving up, I'm just not going to make time for mor than a quick glance at this CL group stage. Yes, this event exposes some MLS weaknesses that are perhaps flaws. But I won't see USL as any sort of rival until USL players start stepping up in numbers in MLS league play. Or until USL owners aren't negotiating $30-50 million expansion fees to move up. I enjoy scouting USL games during the summer when Europe is on hiatus. And in a couple of years I might go to some Rowdies games. But I still don't get the case for any non-die hard US soccer fan that doesn't live in a USL pro market to care about USL1&2. If I'm looking for enjoyment I'll just watch more European soccer.

Qualifying for the 8th playoff spot in a 14 team still means you're below average. And KC probably won't do that this year. With MLS parity it's a small jump in the standings from near the top to near the bottom. But it's not an easy jump.

And DC wouldn't need to use so many foreign imports if they bothered with using their picks in the first two rounds of the draft. Look at where the players from the 2004 champion roster came from. Gomez was the only import of note. This years Crew are on their way to the SS with only using 3 imports of note - Schelotto, Padula, and Ekpo.

First off I'm not sure what changes you propose.

Secondly, FIFA will allow very limited changes. Back in the beginning, MLS discussed using bigger nets. IIRC, FIFA said no. The game is fairly standardized in every country across the world. FIFA sees to that and has the threat of World Cup banishment for anyone who dares oppose them.

The mild tinkering allowed would probably only serve to drive away "hardcore" fans. MLS already tried a shootout (PKs with a running start), a backwards clock, no stoppage time, etc. I don't think any helped.

If you don't count Canadians, the Houston Dynamo are basically doing this. They picked up Kamara and Kpene midseason but could do ok without them. Caig is on his way out at seasons end. As for the Canadians, Onstad is nearing retirement. DeRo would be a huge loss, but Toronto or a new expansion team in Canada would hand over anything for him.

Ching-Jaqua
Davis-Holden-Clark-Mullan
Barrett-Robinson-Boswell-Mulrooney
***random US GK***
bench: ****lesser random US GK***, Ianni, Waibel, Camron, Ashe, Wondolowksi, Brown

so they'd have to trade Kamara and DeRo for a couple of GK's and a striker or two

KC could do it rather quick too, but they'd still be a bottom table team. Anyways it's not going to happen anytime soon.

Why don't some of you go to USLDiscussions.com where I've been analyzing the USL for a couple of years. Including in depth analysis of player transfers and player qualities.

I love what the PDL does. It has very little to do with USL1 & USL2. Comparing pro leagues with summertime amateur leagues for youth players is apples and oranges.

MLS teams have little depth. Some teams like Colorado and historically Chicago and Dallas go into the 20s with quality players. Others have next to nothing on their developmental rosters, like Chivas.

USL1 has gotten a bit better in the last year or two. But I'll stand by my claim that the standard USL team (Montreal is a bit of an exception) has a payroll of what I'd generously guess is 500-700k. USL teams usually have somewhere between 0-2 players that would be regular players in MLS. The typical 6th best player on a USL1 team wouldn't get a top 16 contract on a MLS team. Actually most of the time that player had tried and washed out of MLS. That doesn't mean the gap is huge or that USL1 teams can't compete. They can. But many of the statements about USL pro teams the last few weeks have been near ridiculous. Most seem to come from people who don't watch MLS or USL but have a foreign league as their focus. Or occasionally from some immature youngsters who like their local USL team. I'll stand by my claims in good times and bad (for MLS international results).

Chivas-Tauro: 1st leg had Chivas starting Thornton, Paladini, Chiles. Were missing Galindo, Razov, Marsch, Zotinca. 2nd leg had Chivas starting Kennedy (who's ok), Braun, Ebert. Again missing those listed for the 1st leg. Missing your two strikers and midfield leader will cripple any team. And noone at Chivas had a plan to replace Guzan. Wicky has been injured and might be a bust. Guys like Chiles & Ebert will probably never be regular starters in USL. I'd guess I'd guess Mendoza, Nagamura, Thomas, Bornstein, Eskandarian, Galindo, Kljestan, Marsch, Razov, Talley, Vaughn, Zotinca, and Flores are clearly better than typical USL starters. Suarez too a year ago though with injuries and aging who knows (same for the now heftier Thornton). So I count 13 players on Chivas USA who when healthy are USL standouts. Good USL players would rank around 14th on Chivas this year. I'd put I'd put Harris, Curtin, Kennedy, Burling, and Nurse as likely regular starters if in USL. The rest of Chivas USA is probably garbage and I'm not a fan of Preki's drafting. Chivas wasn't able to field a team of players 1-17, they're backup attack was impotent, the team had little cohesiveness (or motivation), and a few scrubs that had to play were liabilities.

Over time you guys will see. But many here are just hyping a few results to downgrade MLS and care little for USL. My posts over USL's forum site will show you that I do actually care about that league. I have some issues with USL allowing a trail of unpaid bills (Rochester, Virginia Beach) and overnight teams (San Francisco), I do wish it the best. I don't think a bidding war rivalry betwen 2 pro leagues helps soccer develop in the USA right now.

The salary numbers for MLS are available
http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/8_12_08_salary_...

Count the 11 highest on each team. Most all are near or >80k. The 6th highest (the average starter) is almost always >100k. Guys #15-18 are often at 30k and are hired with a view to future performance and might get their spot at the expense of a slightly better player (who sometimes goes to USL, sometimes looks for other work).

Where are those USL salary numbers?

I'm all for USL doing things right and striving. But I don't see how either way it'll have much impact on MLS.

Those USL guys must be geniuses. They get the better players at 1/3 the cost?

Right now is a lull point for MLS until the playoff race enters its last few weeks. NCAA soccer is worth checking out. European soccer is in full swing. I don't blame anyone 1 bit anyone cutting back on MLS. But I can't get excited about the USL playoff race. I'm not that interested in paying to watch internet streams. FSC usually only shows 1 game a week during the playoffs (which I'll watch). USL hasn't had much of a playoff race the last couple of weeks, especially considering that Atlanta sent its best player to MLS. The last couple of weeks I've cut back on USL in favor of NCAA games. My only excitement might come when the title game arrives.

Those USL players must be very unlucky not to be making the 100k/yr the typical average MLS starter makes. I'll stand by my claim that most anyone in USL that could get into one of the top 16 salary spots on a MLS team would be there if they could. Some MLS management and scouting is inept but some of you guys are way overboard in your low opinion of MLS. In terms of the global soccer market, the difference is small, but it's there.

Arsenal tends to buy up the top 16 year olds from across Europe. I'm not sure that means they have a top academy. How many English kids has the Arsenal system produced?

Anyways I still think Arsenal is a great place to go, as he'd be surrounded by several top 16-18 year olds. If they keep a fraction of their youth, it'll be a hard place to get first team minutes.

John, I like your enthusiasm but what markets are out there for USL?

When they try to set up shop anywhere near "MLS markets" (SF near SJ, Virginia Beach near DC) the teams can't last. Rochester nearly went under this offseason. USL will end up with some sort of pro league based upon Rochester, Charleston, and maybe markets like Austin, Cary (Raleigh-Durham) but all the big markets will belong to MLS. I'm not sure how that's going to draw the media's attention? I don't see how USL stands a chance competing against what MLS is building. That's why an established club with 10k+ fans and a new stadium like Montreal is still going to have to pay a heft expansion fee. A bit unfortunate but that's reality.

and Anorthosis got a draw at Werder Bremen, but the Cypriot league still isn't close to Bundesliga standards

Saprissa is actually financially a tier above Alajuense due to Vergera's investment. They compete around the same standard but in higher profile matches Saprissa usually has more veterans that can rise to the occasion.

Most MLS fans (not the internet hardcore fans) don't care yet about this Champions League. Look at the attendance #'s for these games. I hope they take MLS down to 2-3 team at most. MLS doesn't have the depth to worry about this event during the fall.

MLS players have little financial incentive to perform in these events. They try but deep down many don't seem to care. CONCACAF Champions' League is a great idea that's just a few years too early.

And to be exact, cutting someone at 33k in MLS isn't saving any money against the cap. That's the min salary on the 18 man roster and teams are charged for 18 players no matter what. What happens is the 25 year old borderline player at 33k gets cut and replaced by a 22 year old at 33k who the MLS team thinks has more upside and can give near similar production, hopefully better within a year or two. The MLS team deems the 25 year old not worthy of signing on to that next tier (the 60-100k nonguaranteed salaries).

Joe Public had a couple guys with great pace who seemed to catch a depleted New England team unprepared. Once behind New England were missing too many attacking weapons to mount much of a challenge as Joseph was double marked and 3rd choice Tierney was way too slow to stop anyone on the left flank. This doesn't mean Joe Public's team could waltz into starting spots in MLS. They're definitely a significant team in the region as they produce some talented though raw players.

The MLS-USL gap has narrowed, mostly due to MLS expansion, USL contraction, and expanded MLS rosters keeping more of the decent college kids in the pro ranks until age 25. If MLS bother to raise the cap (but more importantly the senior roster limit and min salary) and picks off 2 USL markets, that gap will quickly grow large again. USL isn't anywhere near a position to challenge MLS for a merger. For all the ways it can be argue the gap is small, I'm still not sure why MLS should care?

I don't think the league really cares what the die-hards think. It's a bit sad but as long as they limit losses, keep costs down while building stadiums, and positiion themselves in the right market, it really won't matter in the long run. The casual fan going to games and watching on ESPN2 doesn't really care who Tauro FC are and if they can beat Chivas USA in some other tourny.

One of these days I might consider writing regularly but for now I "blog-hop".

Expansion has diluted depth the last few years. Anyways the vast majority of players on Puerto Rico are MLS rejects and would be unlikely to be impact players in MLS. No matter what result Puerto Rico keeps putting up in this competition.

I have seen little evidence USL wants a partnership.

The impact of MLS on US Soccer overrated? In what way? 15 of the 18 players that dressed against T&T emerged as pros in MLS (counting Donovan who was limited to reserve games in Germany and Ching who after a rookie year in MLS spent 1 year in USL). Maybe these guys would be just as good (or better) if there never was a MLS but most circumstantial evidence would seem to indicate MLS has had a decent impact on US Soccer (especially in depth).

Extort? I think that goes a bit far. MLS owners have invested quite a bit in covering losses over some rough years. If several groups are willing to pay $40 million, why should MLS offer a team for less?

Why are USL teams having "so much success"? Are they that much better at scouting that they're getting better talent at 1/3 the price? Anyways the USL should start to figure out what they'll do if MLS takes away any 2 of Montreal, Vancouver, and Portland. Not many pro teams left west of the Mississippi ...

typo Comparins=Comparing, of course

Comparins Saprissa and Tauro as in any way equivalent shows true ignorance

Considering how most countries have promotion, I'd question how irrelevant second divisions are most anywhere. Take away

In 2004, 2 Costa Rican teams made the final of the CONCACAF tourny. In 2005 their 1 entry in the main tourny made the final. In 2006 2 teams edged MLS teams by 1 goal each. In 2007 the Dynamo edged their 1 entrant (not Saprissa or Alajuense). In 2008 (the spring version), Saprissa made the final and knocked off a Mexican team. Their top 2-3 teams are very good. Historically MLS teams have gone their preseason and have not gotten results. Puerto Rico did well and got a draw there. That's still a sample size of 1.

MLS scouting isn't perfect and the cap limits MLS depth. I'd say take away the top 16 players on any MLS team and there's rarely anyone better than a good USL player. So what? USL has done some good things. But they've also left a trail of debts unpaid (Rochester, Virginia Beach). The PDL is great. Montreal, Portland, and others are building something special. But in the end, other than a scouting ground for MLS and local games for a few midsized US markets, USL doesn't offer that much reason to be paid attention. I've seen each team at least a couple times on FSC but USL is pretty far down my radar compared to UEFA Champions' League, the EPL, La Liga, MLS. Why? Because MLS has former, current, and future USMNT players. Neither MLS or USL are going to match the quality of a good handful of leagues out there. USL deserves respect in several areas but it's rightfully considered mostly irrelevant by anyone not living in a pro USL city.

Consider this lineup for the US:

Cooper - Donovan
Rogers - R Clark - Mastroeni - Klejstan
Borstein - Conrad - Parkhurst - Hejduk
Reis

bench: Ching, Twellman, Gibbs, C Marshall, Beckerman, B Davis, E Lewis
upcoming talent: Lambo, Shea, A Ibrahim, Wallace, Seitz

not to mention the foreign talent in MLS

and that just this summer MLS produced Altidore, Edu, & Guzan to Europe

try comparing that to USL or any CONCACAF league. Or make a case that these guys minus Donovan are irrelevant to US soccer. I'll take the Altidore/Edu route to Europe over the Scandinavian route. The list of current US players who didn't start of in MLS is rather small - Onyewu, Pearce, Cherundolo, Spector, Feilhaber. 14 of 18 players in the squad against T&T started their career in MLS (not counting Donovan). There's nothing wrong with being a developing league for teams worth hundreds of millions a dollars. It's a bit absurd to think MLS could be anything else right now.

That Costa Rican team was missing most of its prominent starters against Puerto Rico. And lost on a pitch waterlogged by a huge storm. That wasn't football.

Quality is more than technique. Athleticism, strength, etc actually matter towards winnning.

It's not laughable that MLS is charging $40-50 million is 8 groups out there are prepared to pay up.

Since when has it been anything more than a developmental league for US players?

The idea that it would have been a fatal blow is silly. If Donovan did well at Bayern, it'd elevate the leagues reputation. Anyways, the next Bradley, Altidore, Adu, Tim Howard, etc are all around the corner. MLS has an important role to play in developing US talent and the loss of Donovan would have been negligible. He's completely overshadowed in starpower by Beckham anyways.