DISQUS

@Ray Edwards - I can't tell if you're serious or not.

You know Michel very well, or at least I thought you did. So your comment confuses me. It seems either tongue in cheek, or disrespectful. I'm not sure which.

@Lorraine - Excellent points! My guess is that because IMers rarely ever have to actually FACE their customers, it becomes easier to push the limits and do stuff that we instinctively know is just plain bad marketing.

The teenager at McDonald's knows they must face their customer, face to face, and suffer the consequences of ill will.

Online marketers hide behind the relative anonymity of the computer screen, and as long as they don't care about what people say about them, as long as they have a tough skin, they get away with it, but only for a while.

Eventually, it catches up, in the form of long term decline in revenue.

Ironically, the decline in revenue is rarely chalked up to "I may have done something wrong along the way". Instead, they chalk it up to "I'm not selling aggressively enough".

Weird!

Just thought of yet another analogy for the true reasons why marketers resort to these types of tactics. This one may seem odd, but bear with me. :)

It's all about desiring immediate gratification...the immediate sales numbers, the big ego boost, the huge launches that rage hot and fierce and then die a fast death. The bragging rights about how much he/she made the last time they sold the Product Du Jour.

Babies demand instant gratification. They scream for it. They crave attention. They want their bottle NOW. They don't understand patience. They don't understand the long term or the future. For babies, it's all about the here and now. Today. NOW, NOW, NOW.

But then we grow up. We learn that delayed gratification and planning ahead has a great deal of value. We know that we must work steadily towards our ultimate goals. We patiently plan and steadily head in the direction that best suits our long term goals.

That's what it means to be an adult. ALL true success comes to you only if you are willing to delay your rewards and wait for better things to come.

I think it's time the IM community grows up.

@Kevin Finney - I do love a great debate, when intelligent people discuss issues in an open, respectful manner. Kevin, you and I may not agree on the issue of the day, but it is wonderfully refreshing that you and I can disagree with respect and dignity.

Thank you for that!

And with that said, I of course, respectfully disagree. :)

Originally Posted By Kevin Finney

I don't want a long-term relationship with ever customer. (this might explain why I am not as good at social media as Ed Dale)

Perhaps your definition of long term relationship and my definition are different.

I am referring to "relationship" as one where a qualified customer buys one or more products from me, consumes it, takes action on what I'm teaching, then buys more products from me once he or she is ready for them, and then repeats this process multiple times for many years.

This, of course, applies specifically to my market, but you get the gist.

In the case of my market, I teach how to build a stable, reliable business, using online tools and techniques. It is in my own best interest that I teach this correctly and do whatever I can to encourage people to take action and do what they need to do to generate income for themselves. Why? Because the sooner I can get them making real money, the more money they will have to spend on more training.

It's simple math. In my market, It serves me and my customers well for us to have a long term relationship, because it means it is mutually profitable.

If, on the other hand, I was to use the hit and run methods I see far too often, my methods would have to change, I would be forced to use "desperation selling" tactics, because I would specifically want to get customers who never consume my products at all.

I make this point in the sins report. I believe that most marketers who use desperation selling tactics are doing it because they don't necessarily want their customers to consume their product at all. They want them to buy them fast (before their electronic downloads are all "gone") and never crack it open when they get it.

This ensures that the marketer is never revealed as a bad teacher. The consumer never takes action or uses the "system", thus finding out it doesn't work, is a bad idea, and should never have been taught.

Yes, snake oil. The big promises that don't deliver, but the salesmen are long gone before anyone has the chance to use it.

OK, I'm rambling, but you get the point, right?

My version of long term relationship is better described as a repeat customer, one who likes what I sell today, and will buy what I sell tomorrow also.

It is also our job to give value before the purchase. This is the whole point of "moving the free line". Build confidence and trust before the prospect makes a financial decision.

Yes, true, but what I've seen lately is a really bad implementation of the concept.

People get happy and excited during the "free line" process, develop trust, decide to purchase when the product comes out, and as soon as they've purchased, they are hammered with the upsell hell process.

Now they are immediately flooded with buyer's remorse...feeling stupid for having fallen for it yet again. You and I both know that a large quantity of buyers immediately question their decision the moment they hit "submit", so why on earth would we want to exacerbate that feeling by slamming them with annoyance the moment they feel most vulnerable?

There are easier and more effective ways to upsell, is all I'm saying. Ways we can still sell as much, if not more, products to customers happy to buy them and happy AFTER they buy as well.

When I go through the upsell hell processes desperately, I often screen capture the sales messages, and immediately annotate my notes to the .jpg's. I learn as much about a marketer by how he/she delivers her sales process, as I would by studying their products.

Kevin, I think you nailed the real problem here, and the entire reason you and I are seeing things differently.

You purchase with a completely different mindset. When YOU buy products that are being sold using these tactics, you are thinking like a salesman, NOT like 98% of the planet. You are watching the process with interest, you aren't "experiencing it" from the typical consumer's point of view.

I think you may need to take off your own marketer's hat for a moment and put on the customer's hat for a while. Let yourself think like the typical customer. See it from their point of view.

When I say that people feel "desperation" while going through the process, I do not refer to myself personally. No salesman, no pitching, no marketing process has ever made me feel bad. I, like you, love watching the sales process, and I learn a great deal from all of it, good and bad.

But I am not speaking for me. I am speaking for our customers, most of which do not enjoy the marketing process at all.

I understand them because I step away from my own perspective long enough to see it from their point of view.

You say "Reframe your perspective, and all desperation will leave you."

True, but you expect too much from your customers. You are demanding that they fundamentally change who they are, and what I'm saying is that it is your responsibility to make your marketing message, sales process, and ultimately your products, match your customers...rather than trying to force THEM to accept your preferences.

So, I promise, here and now, I will read the rest of http://www.internetmarketingsins.com and implement your suggestions in a test, and see if my capitalistic greed has indelibly corrupted my viewpoint. Who knows, you've done this longer than I have, maybe you are right, maybe....

Awesome! We may win you over yet! :)

Give it a shot. Test it out. And remember that a truly scientific test is done for a long period of time, not short term. I think you'll see exactly what I mean.

Remember also that my suggestions are not based on my own personal opinions. They are based on having watched hundreds of marketers, marketers I've worked with in my business, marketers who were/are clients of mine, in hundreds of different niches (not just IM).

Most marketers teach from their own perspective, based on what they, and their tiny circle of buddies do. That's all well and good, except it is very myopic.

I see things from an eagle eye view...watching MANY marketers behind the scenes. It's a great perspective. :)

Originally Posted By Admiral Nige
Selling some one a product for 25$ then asking them for 100$ does not work for long term business growth. It may work in small percentage terms but if you go to any multi national business with tens of millions of customers and ask them they will tell you it does not.

Bravo! And THAT is the essential point Michel and I make in everything we discuss.

The bottom line is that if you want to remain small potatoes, never playing in the big leagues, then by all means, use the shady tactics and sneaky methods to your heart's content.

But if you want to be seen as a serious business, with serious long term growth plans, like the truly big players do, then you avoid the limiting, short term, quick money grabs that so many IM folks are currently using.

We are supposed to be building real businesses here, not hit and run "projects".

Bravo Admiral! :)

@Kevin Finney - Hi Kevin...a very hearty welcome to the raging debate.

As you might expect, I wholeheartedly disagree with many of your points, but I also wholeheartedly support your right to state them. :)

To your specific points...

Originally Posted By Kevin Finney
I don't understand why people get so tired of upsell hell. Got a problem with the upsells, don’t buy. Easy as that.

Perhaps we were unclear about the real problem here. What we're referring to is the plethora of upsell hell processes that smack people AFTER they buy, but BEFORE they are delivered what they purchased.

The key thing to understand is that they do not KNOW they are about to be smacked and treated like floating wallets. They buy product A, thinking the marketer is going to deliver on his/her promise, but instead of delivering, they are FORCED UNWITTINGLY to navigate through a confusing series of upsells, all in a desperate attempt to get the product they purchased.

But I do agree with you. No one should spend any money with any marketer who proves themselves to be completely uncaring about their experience. Especially when it comes to marketers who teach others how to build a business based on these unnecessarily aggressive tactics.

So, listen up people. Kevin said it right.

Stop supporting these tactics! Stop sending them your money. Stick with marketers who treat you with respect and dignity.

If you can continue to add value, why not ask for more money. There is no better time to ask than when the prospect is hot.

Again, I agree with you in principle, but not in the way you meant this.

Yes, ask for an upsell while the prospect is "hot"...but only AFTER you deliver on your promise and prove you can be trusted with their money!!!

How is this unclear? If you demand that they make a second decision about buying a second product from you, before you actually give them a single snippet of value, then you are NOT proving your value at all. You are actually doing the opposite. You're showing what a completely desperate salesman you really are.

Desperate salesmen are usually desperate for a reason, and people are not stupid. They will usually figure out eventually the true reason the marketer must resort to BS scarcity and upsell hell tactics to make a buck. Could it possibly be that they are one trick ponies who offer little in the way of long term value?

Hmmm. Maybe it's a really good idea for marketers to understand that this is exactly what their customers are feeling when they are being slapped with upsell hell processes?

On the "thanks" page, immediately give them what they purchased. THEN show them more stuff to buy. (See http://www.internetmarketingsins.com for a more complete explanation of the proven alternative that has consistently worked better for those few marketers who dared to consider their customers first)

Yes, your short term statistics will reflect a decrease in sales. But I am not interested in short term, immediate gratification. I'm interested in long term, committed relationships with my customers, because in the end, the numbers always win when you think about the LIFETIME value of the customer who is happy, satisfied, trusts you, and looks forward to every product you create.

The truth is that your customer's credit cards are attached to their wallets. And their wallets are firmly attached to their hearts.

Treat them with respect and dignity, prove that you are worth every penny, and they will be loyal to you for life...not just until they realize their credit cards are being used as an ATM, at which point they will cancel, and never do business with you again.

I'm begging people to listen to their customers and stop tossing them off as whiners.

They are people, not floating, disconnected wallets. They are NOT walking ATMs.

The whole point of a “trial” is for you to decide if you want to continue. You go into the trial knowing what the cost of continuing is gonna be.

Incorrect. Most forced continuity offers these days are done so sneakily that most people have no clue what they are agreeing to.

But let's deal with this issue, once and for all.

Read the Sins report. In it, I talk about having pride in your products. If the monthly continuity program is so great, why must you use sleight of hand to focus people's attention on the big box 'o stuff? Focus your entire offer on the product you REALLY want people to buy. Stop acting ashamed of the continuity offers!

If they have value, do a dollar trial on THAT PRODUCT, not on some other product that is only distantly related to the continuity offer.

Why, oh why, is this so freakin' hard to understand?

Why must marketers talk about how great product A is, when their real motive (sometimes obvious, sometimes not) is to get people to go for the continuity offer (Product B)?

If Product B is so wonderful, sell it like you mean it. Sell it like you're proud of it. Sell it like it can stand on its own two feet without Product A's help!

aarrgghh! :)

Don’t hate the playa, hate the game.

Also agree with you completely, which is exactly why we discuss tactics, not people. We hate the sin...not the sinner. :)

@Sharon McPherson - That's a great resource, Sharon. Thanks for sharing!

I also recommend http://www.InfomercialScams.com (a sister site of InfomercialRatings.com) as a research tool

@Lorrette - Hey Lorette! Thanks so much! I checked out your site - http://dailyscrewups.com - out of curiosity. Love the name! I gotta tell you, it took me all of 2 minutes to decide to sign up, and I don't sign up to a lot of lists. :)

Can't wait for the laughs I'm sure you'll be sending my way. :)

@Karen - Oh wow. Thanks! Whenever I hear my own voice, I think I sound like a 14 year old kid. LOL Glad to know it ain't as bad as I imagine.

Hi Jesus

Yes, that's exactly how the process makes people feel. It isn't about "don't sell me anything else", it's about "prove to me that I can trust you, and I'll be glad to look at more offers".

Thanks so much for your comments! It helps a lot for marketers to see for themselves what people are experiencing.

@Tian Yan - YES! That's exactly what I am talking about. I'm NOT against upsells at all. In fact, if done right, they work very well for BOTH parties.

By assuring your customer that they already got what you've promised they would get when they trusted you with their credit card, you may THEN feel free to give them valuable offers and special discounts at that point.

Great thinking, Tian! :)

@@LoisSmithers - Excellent point, Lois. That's precisely what I was trying to say in the Internet Marketing Sins report.

By using the Upsell Hell process, marketers may see an initial increase in revenue, but a steep decline over time, as well as a destruction of relationships and trust with their customers.

Thanks for saying this, Lois. :)

@Kaytee - Thanks for your comments on this. It's great to get feedback from different people. It helps me plan ahead for future products.

If I do a transcript for the video, I'll send a notification letting you know about it. At the moment, the transcription team is swamped, so it will need to wait. But I'll keep it in mind. :)

@Kaytee - My guess is that the server was hammered at the moment you tried viewing the video. It just came out so a ton of people were watching simultaneously.

I'd suggest giving it another shot, and see if it works for you.

Q: Do you typically have problems watching web videos? Like, for instance, the videos on MarketersBoard.com or is it just that one?

Curious, because most people prefer the video style, and I'd prefer doing videos anyday. I may consider getting it transcribed, but I'm reluctant to do that, since so many have told me they prefer video.

hey Jason

Thanks for the reminder. ;)

The link Jason's talking about is http://www.MarketingESP.com

Thanks so much, Karen! Love your site! :)

hey Joseph! Great to see you here. :)

Yes, that's exactly what I think. I think Google is paying close attention to how people use the net, and this is their early test in social "voting" on search results.

It will be cool to see how it all pans out

GoDaddy definitely offers a lot of upgrade options, but technically, it isn't what I define as Upsell Hell. Here's why...

All their options are offered BEFORE the credit card data is submitted, which means that you can close the browser at any time and decline to continue the purchase process.

Upsell Hell is defined as "holding your credit card hostage while bombarding you with additional offers, and refusing to give you what you originally paid for until you've seen all the upgrade offers". In other words, if you decide to close the browser window at any time during this bombardment, you will not get the chance to collect the product you originally bought, because you are never taken to the "download" page.

At least that's how I distinguish it. :)

Hey there. I double-checked the video in my Firefox and it seems to be fine. Possibly a temporary glitch or buffering? (I'm not nearly techie enough to troubleshoot) :)

Thanks Paul! :)

How about "Pre-Order Upgrade"?

So glad you guys are enjoying the new site. We've got a lot more coming.

We plan to answer a lot of questions people have about all things marketing and business building. It's going to be a great year!

Please don't forget to tell your friends about it, and help spread the word. We appreciate your support too! :)

@Burton Kent - Hey Burton

Yes, transcripts are included, for your convenience. :)

Sylvie

@Dr.Mani - Yes, I do tend to be wordy. :) Won't apologize for it, though. Michel often tells me to be more pithy, but my writing style has always been this way, and when I spend too much time trying to be perfect, it never gets done.

Same thing with my http://www.BreastCancerVictory.com blog. I could have made each entry shorter, but then I wouldn't be...well...uniquely me. :)

Thanks, though. I appreciate all comments, critical and otherwise.

@Ken Calhoun - "A Checkup From The Neck Up" I love it! LOL

Thank you for your support, Ken! Truly appreciated!

My dear husband is fully aware of the brief, albeit unsatisfying, affair I had with Homer. It was long before I met Michel and didn't mean anything to me. It took me very little time to realize that Homer and I had nothing in common.

I mean, all it took was one candlelight dinner (consultation) and he was all too eager to boost me up on a pedestal, and proclaim me his instant "guru". I don't need that kind of power, especially if I want a mutually satisfying relationship of mutual respect and thoughtful discourse.

Homer is rather desperate, I must say. He's not very confident in his own ability to make logical decisions about anything. Every time we were trying to decide where we should go to dinner, all he ever said was "I'll go anywhere you want to go. You know best, dear".

Arrgghh! Irritating!

Michel and I are perfectly suited. He challenges me and I challenge him.

Poor Homer could learn a thing or two about being a real man, from my darling husband.

So, all this to say, Michel has nothing to be worried about. Homer never stood a chance with a woman like me. :)

If truth be told, I think Homer secretly wants a dominatrix. (rolling my eyes)