Disqus - Latest Comments for Gordon

Re: How to Embed Images and Music on your Blog Easily

Gordon — Sun, 28 Oct 2007 07:52:00 -0000

Todd,
Thanks for the great BLOG.
Where do I get the code to embed Animoto on my website?
Thanks, Gord Bell
Beauview Cottage Resort<br resort@beauview.on.ca">/>resort@beauview.on.ca

Re: Called by GOD to preach? - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Gordon — Wed, 17 Oct 2007 04:47:00 -0000

This is nothing new.

It has been going on for generations:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=marjoe

Re: http://blog.thegreenasterisk.com/2007/04/mcfly-or-wheres-hover-board.html

Gordon — Mon, 02 Apr 2007 13:30:00 -0000

what is worse, is that a generation of children have grown up without any good sciencefiction. they have been dumbed down and lost any wonder.

http://www.cheapgreencar.com

Re: Britney Spears @ VMAS: So Many Levels of “Suck”

Gordon — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:54:25 -0000

Oh please, leave her alone, she looks amazing and her song is hot!

Re: Kahlen Rondot, my heart acheth

Gordon — Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:45:41 -0000

wonder how's kahlen doing now...she totally rocks man... like she looked hot...and cute at the same time... her body's....my god...like...greatest ive ever seen...and most importantly...she had this thing abt her personality which made her seem real...yeppers..hope she's doing fine now..

Re: The “Third Date” Rule

Gordon — Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:28:00 -0000

What's really needed is a Dating Slide Rule. You know, you set it at the start to work out when it's going to happen, euphemistically speaking, that is.

You can recalculate and reset it as you go along, for instance, if you start out on the 'one date a week' programme, but suddenly mid-way through you speed it up to, god forbid, the two dates a week programme.

What's with all of the counting? In my opinion, it's this: women are afraid that, if they sleep with a guy "too early", he'll think she's easy and he'll stop seeing her.

If the guy really likes the girl, it doesn't matter if after a really good first date she decides to sleep with him. He isn't going to think any lesser of her or see her any differently. Men don't think women are easy or not easy, I don't know any friends who think this way (not on this side of the pond, at least).

Let's be honest, the only reason he's not going to see her again after sleeping with her on the first date is if he wasn't really into her in the first place…

BTW - layout is cool.

Re: Email from Fernando

Gordon — Sun, 04 Sep 2005 20:32:00 -0000

That started out so well, but anyway, chapter not quite closed. He is a guy, so he will likely email you again sometime in the near or not too distant future. That's my bet anyway.

Re: Misha Barton Is Dead

Gordon — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:57:23 -0000

She just looks like Cameron Diaz to me... (Mischa Barton, not the dog.)

Re: OhGizmo! » Archive » Generation NEX Nintendo

Gordon — Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:54:50 -0000

I just got my Generation NEX today. First off, the included controller is terrible. The buttons are slanted, the thing is tiny, and it's an awkward button layout to begin with. The sound on all the games (incl. SMB3) is off and not accurate (compared to being played on an original NES). Huge bummer. Also, games like River City Ransom do weird stuff when you play them, including garbleing up the menus, changing colors, and generally not working properly. Did they even test this thing? How hard could it be to make a 100% compatible NES clone in 2005? I would warn everyone to stay away from this. For $60 You could get an original NES with a new 72-pin connector in it, some REAL NES controllers, and some decent games. Avoid and get the real thing.

Re: Brian McLaren: How Does Saddam’s Execution Make You Feel?

Gordon — Fri, 05 Jan 2007 01:08:59 -0000

My first thought was, "This seems to be one thing the Muslims get right - it took a month or so, not 20 years."

Subsequent revelations leave me a bit quesy. Apparently the execution wasn't carried out by the dul constituted authorities. That makes it murder, in my view.>

Re: Mitsuyoshi Toge: ‘How Could I Ever Forget That Flash’

Gordon — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:40:02 -0000

Russell said:

The more i read this blog the more I am beginning to think that the original purpose of Sojourners seems to be wasting away. These articles are simply bashing conservatives and attempting to push forward a liberal agenda.

That was the original purpose of Sojourners.

Re: Six Found Guilty Of Trying to See Their Senator
(by John Dear)

Gordon — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 22:15:40 -0000

If you're going to engage in an act of civil disobedience, then you should be an adult about it, cheerfully accept the penalty, and not whine about how unfair it all was.

Re: Six Found Guilty Of Trying to See Their Senator
(by John Dear)

Gordon — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:54:15 -0000

Well, justin, I would agree that Domenici is a coward, and I wish he (or perhaps his staff) had handled this better. But John Dear's piece strikes me as just so much whining about consequences he and his collaborators could have easily anticipated. It seems a bit silly, when Domenici's office had agreed to meet with some of his folks, to insist that all nine had to be present. The original idea was to deliver a message, wasn't it? Couldn't three people have done that about as well as nine?

Re: Pick-and-Choose Theology (by Daoud Kuttab)

Gordon — Wed, 12 Sep 2007 22:07:00 -0000

I agree with Ray - it's very difficult to decide just what he's getting at here. If he means to say that scripture doesn't necessarily require that we like Israel, he should say that.

Re: Six Found Guilty Of Trying to See Their Senator
(by John Dear)

Gordon — Wed, 12 Sep 2007 22:45:58 -0000

The idea of Dear and Co. as Sen Domenici's "employers" strikes me as a bit inapt. I would cast this more as like the relationship between stockholders and the CEO of some corporation they hold stock in. They are the CEO's employers in some ultimate sense, but their only leverage is to vote at the next stockholder's meeting.

Re: The Global Church and America’s War (by Jim Wallis)

Gordon — Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:46:30 -0000

Wallis' defensiveness is palpable here.

Re: Pick-and-Choose Theology (by Daoud Kuttab)

Gordon — Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:47:09 -0000

This is a difficult issue for me. Although I generally favor the right wing of the Christian political spectrum, I nonetheless see the point of some of the Palestinian criticisms of Israel. I suppose it helps to not be a dispensationalist. The Israeli position historically has been that the Palestinians chose to leave, prodded by Arab anti-Semites. But there is substantial evidence to suggest that many were driven out by the Israelis.

On the other hand I think Israel has a right to exist, and that leaves me with an uncomfortable conundrum: what to do about the Palestinians, who also have a claim to the land. I don't believe for a moment, things being as they are, that an attempt to integrate the Palestinian population and Israel into a single nation would result in anything other than the slaughter of someone, and it seems unlikely that the existing Israeli population would voluntarily leave. So the question for me is how in the world could we ever solve this problem?

A good friend of mine, a Catholic who comes from the far left of the Christian political spectrum, once told me that the most difficult moral choices are always those in which one has to choose between two evils. That is pretty much where I end up with this.

Re: Jena is America (by Lydia Bean)

Gordon — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:34:32 -0000

I found this case appalling. There does indeed seem to be some prejudice at work here. Whether it's evidence of a larger problem nationally is arguable.

Re: Jena is America (by Lydia Bean)

Gordon — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:04:51 -0000

"I agree that the students should have been expelled, but there was simply no case for prosecution here."

I have given this a lot of thought, and so far haven't come up with a crime that could have been charged. Defacing a public tree maybe? Malicious mischief?

Re: More on Sydney Babes

Gordon — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 10:20:00 -0000

Hey CJ, heard you guys made it out to my neck of the woods in Manly. Too bad it was raining. I live in a beachside flat next to the corso (central area).

Keep the stories about australia coming. It's funny to hear other Americans' opinions on the culture. I'm an expat who's been living over here for a few years.

Love your work.

Re: Dougie Follows Hazel in Attacking Infighting

Gordon — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 07:08:00 -0000

Gentlemen (and Ladies)

Please would one of you answer my query on a new Labour Leader:

Is there anything to stop Mandelson taking over, and if he does whilst Labour are still in power, does he become prime minister? Do they have to apoint a junior minister in the department of the prime minister to answer questions in the House? How would such a thing work?

Thanks for your help

Re: Dougie Follows Hazel in Attacking Infighting

Gordon — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:39:00 -0000

Thank you for your answers about Mandy as PM/zanulabour leader, I appreciate you making the effort to educate me

Re: CONTEST: BOOM! Sampler Giveaway

Gordon — Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:22:00 -0000

Hopefully, this should help get the word out about this cool contest:

http://blogthispal.blogspot.com/2006/06/free-comics-and-videos.html

Re: Another Compliment for Kennedy

Gordon — Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:10:09 -0000

Corina,
The only reason Melina agreed with Wyser at the Neighborhood meeting was because he didn't say anything that had to do with policy or politics. Good for him on this because he was really put in a tough spot to sit on this "debate" or "forum" whatever you want to call it and he stayed mostly away from politics.

Wyser stuck to things like: we work hard everyday. We do the best we can, etc. How can she disagree with that?

Re: Britney lookalike

Gordon — Sun, 29 May 2005 09:27:51 -0000

whoa... scary! from now on i'll question every pic i see of a hot girl!

Re: More on Sydney Babes

Gordon — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 10:20:00 -0000

Re: Raider Week just ain’t the same

Gordon — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 10:45:43 -0000

I remember when the Raiders used to shout, "go Broncos, win state" Now it's Bronco time to shout "go raiders, win city"!

Re: Green with Service Envy – The Live|Work and Streetcar Partnership.

Gordon — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:59:02 -0000

igo is the Chicago equivalent that Wire's friend is talking about. I don't think it's as widespread or quite as convenient as Streetcar, though.

http://www.flexcarnetwork.com/chicago-i-go/default.asp

Re: Question of the day

Gordon — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:58:58 -0000

Several of the submissions opposed to a state-wide ban seem to be relying on an "economic" argument. Since when are dollars more important than people's lives?? Tobbaco farmers have successfully converted to other crops. Seems to me retailers have some ethical and business choices to make to minimize any possible negative economic impact. I say go for the ban!
Lets make Illinois a safe and healthy place to live and work!

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/04/breaking-news-investigative-judgment.html

Gordon — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 08:33:00 -0000

I read this so-called 'joke' a few nights ago and it sickened me. My opinion has not changed - I think it is sick and stupid - and it played with my emotions; I felt betrayed. I almost picked up the phone to excitedly tell my step-daughter what I had read - fortunately I thought I should follow the link, and was deeply disappointed as a consequence. There was certainly no cleverness about that rediculous 'article'.

It is very rarely that I would ever want to post such strong words about a few paragraphs, but I must admit I found the whole exercise quite silly. It betrays the noble ends which I believe this blog sometimes seeks to achieve - although quite candidly it often does not seem to do so these days. The paragraphs led me to think that the church had finally reached a place where administrators were prepared to say that some things are not written in stone - and it was music to my ears.

God forbid that such irresponsibility in journalism should ever be seen again on this or any other forum or website; where some of the deeply worrying aspects of Seventh-day Adventism are openly debated and (hopefully) intelligently discussed.

I am so proud to have once been associated with the church; I worked in publishing for many years in Africa and I suppose I made a considerable contribution - or so the final letter from those who oversaw my work said, anyway. I often found myself working into the early hours of the morning as I journeyed over the southern countries of that lovely continent - those were the greatest years of my life. So to find that the church had at last thought things through was quite delightful - until I discovered it was not the case at all.

No wonder there seem to be far less people posting comments on this blog nowadays. I have an idea there will be even less after this inexplicable blunder . . .

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/03/led-me-out.html

Gordon — Tue, 10 Mar 2009 03:22:00 -0000

Ruth Davis has written an interestng book on the Charismatic movement - especially the more bizarre aspects. I don't think she is an SDA, but what she has to say would go down well with the SDA church. Her website True to His ways (same title as the book) is found here:

http://www.truetohisways.com/

Over the years I have briefly glanced at the website which Dale Ratzlaff's crew seem to use. It is basically a 'moaners' corner, and very shallow indeed. Certainly there is no great thinking there at all. I am myself an ex SDA, and certainly would not fall into that mode of thinking. Much of it seems to be plain silly.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/02/by-request-our-complete-poll-list.html

Gordon — Sun, 08 Feb 2009 08:01:00 -0000

What did interest me was the poll on the six-day creation belief. I wonder if anyone on this forum knows the general feeling about this question in the SDA chruch today?

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/02/by-request-our-complete-poll-list.html

Gordon — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:47:00 -0000

These results say very little, other than that people who visit RTAW (probably liberal?) have voted. The counts are very low indeed.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/01/are-adventists-fundamentalists.html

Gordon — Tue, 03 Feb 2009 12:42:00 -0000

Steven, after reading the article I can hardly say more than to pronounce it as a complete load of twaddle. Rather a non-academic comment I suppose; but beside the article being poorly written it is inaccurate on so many points. But I shall leave others to sort that mess out.

In all humility I believe I stand at a rather unique vantage point when it comes to judging the Seventh-day Adventist church. I left thirteen years ago, but have great memories of a people who were very open to the world – and very active in it. In fact I found the SDA church to be the very salt of the earth.

I certainly must admit that I can no longer accept the Adventist view on scripture; which is quite similar to their friends the Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans and numerous other churches. I cannot now accept the evangelical view on Jesus; and of course the whole house falls where the evangelical view on prophecy is concerned – and that is quite wide and rather disparate, but nevertheless seems to be based on a belief in the Bible as being ‘the word of God’.

But may I address one point. The writer of the article asserts that “. . . Adventist fundamentalists . . . cloister themselves. Their rejection of the world drastically reduces their usefulness in the world.” What nonsense is this? Even the most fundamental of Adventists – those I often visited when passing through Zambia - found near the Kafue River at Riverside mission station are intent to a most remarkable degree in doing good for the world at large – and especially for the people of Zambia. And now that rather fundamentalist branch of Adventism has mission stations and health spas in various parts of the world and they are such a blessing to mankind at large. They devote their lives to helping others to maintain a decent living standard and embrace a healthy lifestyle. They enter into the world in the most lively and helpful manner possible.

And outside of fundamentalist Adventists I think of the wonderful work which Doctor Gilbert Burnham (now at Johns Hopkins University) and other Adventist doctors performed at Malamulo Hospital in Malawi. I think of the wonderful literature work which I headed at Malamulo Press and helped run in Cape Town at Southern Publishing Association. Year after year I witnessed the lifestyles of people radically changed by the literature we produced there.

I have been associated with conference presidents who did not care much for the Adventist view on the judgment so there is lively debate within the church; perhaps not as lively as we would have it be, but nevertheless it is there. I see it in Professor Julius Nam’s musings and I know it is elsewhere.
Adventists cloister themselves? How about their 7200 schools scattered throughout the world; their many universities, hospitals and publishing houses – their remarkable ADRA work, which is supported by world governments because of the commitment to serve others and their deep integrity?

In truth, I find the article to be a mere bleat; hardly worth commenting upon.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/01/adventist-way-rape-pillage-and-plunder.html

Gordon — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:29:00 -0000

Once again, thank you for your comments Shawn.

I think it is important to recognize that many of those from the East who look on Jesus as one amongst many avatars (or incarnations of God) are fairly advanced in their exposure to a historical/critical understanding of the gospels. They are well aware of the numerous issues found in both the synoptics and the gospel of John and as a consequence they are not inclined to take the gospel writers at face value on all counts – especially where Christians claim that they are the only interpreters of the life and meaning of Jesus. The gospel of John with its deeply spiritual content is especially familiar to those who take an interest in Jesus.

This is quite contrary to the approach of evangelists in the west, who remain silent on these scholarly issues when endeavoring to gain converts – in spite of their advanced training in the subject. Not so for many Hindus; there is much published work (albeit some of it is of a rather patchwork nature) by prominent Hindu thinkers. Although embracing a historical/literary approach they will nevertheless accept the divinity of Jesus without hesitation – which is often quite the contrary in the west – see for instance such writers as Bishop Spong, Funk and Borg amongst numerous other scholars. Likewise much of the Old Testament would definitely not be accepted at face value, although the high spirituality of the prophet Isaiah, Jeremiah and some of the minor prophets will often be quoted by Hindu academics.

One of the outstanding commentaries on the Bhagavad-Gita was authored by Dr Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, a professor of Eastern religion and ethics at Oxford University and then president of India from 1962-1967. He made great use of the gospel of John in his commentary, however at the same time he did not understand Jesus as being in any way the property of Christianity, but saw him as being ‘one amongst many’. Radhakrishnan’s book is well worth reading if you wish to gain an insight into Hindu thinking related to Jesus.

So yes, certainly they do look at Jesus within the context of the gospels, but it is freely admitted that they must be interpreted through the lens of the perennial philosophy of the East. In that way they are quite comfortable with the Jesus whom the East has claimed as their own.

Reading between the lines I detect that you would have them interpret Jesus from your own background which I would understand is based on Judeo-Christian roots and which is the rich heritage of just over two thousand years. That is not the way of the Hindu. Many discover Jesus and make use of his or her, own rich cultural roots to interpret the Biblical account. E Stanley Jones, a Methodist minister who befriended the Indian upper classes and was a friend of both Nehru and Gandhi did his best to contextualize Christianity for India in his seminal work The Christ of the Indian Road. The book became popular in India and the west and eventually sold over 1 million copies - wikipedia. Once again, the book is well worth the read.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/01/adventist-way-rape-pillage-and-plunder.html

Gordon — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:34:00 -0000

Thanks for your comments Shawn. I have been out of the church for sixteen years now, so I suppose I am speaking more as an outsider looking at an erstwhile church which is still going about the business of trying to communicate to the outsdie world rather than to its own congregants.

I am also here in the UK, where much of the religious talk is no longer comprehended. My guess is though that people will be quite comfortable to talk about Jesus as a man who said and did remarkable things. He will always remain popular. But I do wonder whether they want a Christian agenda attached to Jesus. There is just too much to that agenda which is certainly no longer appreciated today.

But the man Jesus? That is another story altogether. I recently read a comment by Marcus Borg where he said that today in the USA there are more and more young people attending secular colleges and universities where a course on the historical Jesus is offered. I believe there is much fascination for Jesus amongst young people, but little for the church. I wish more universities and colleges in the UK offered such short courses.

Which makes one ask the question; is the current mode of church communication not a little outworn with people who are exposed to the contemporary media. Where people are a little ignorant of the harm the church has caused over 2000 years there seems to be more receptivity to Churchianity. I'm speaking about the third world here of course.

But hey! Here's something interesting. Marcus Braebrooke,in his book 'What Can We Learn from Hinduism : Recovering the Mystical' tells an interesting story:

"When I first visited Gobind Sadan, a Sikh interfaith community on the outskirts of New Delhi, some eighteen years ago, the receptionist told me how she prayed every day that she would have a vision of Jesus. When we went back in 2001, the same woman shared with our group the vision she had had quite recently of Jesus, as a luminous figure standing beside her, who assured her of his love and blessing. The woman remains a devout Sikh."

I would be very interested to hear the conventional Christian's take on that one. Do we feel uncomfortable with the idea that someone can long so much for Jesus that he or she is gifted with a vision of such a nature and yet remain in his or her own faith. I would not mind betting my last (rather rotten) British pound that most Christians will feel most uncomfortable at the thought that someone else can feel comfortable with Jesus and yet not want to join the Christian church.

It tells me something about the church . . .

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/01/adventist-way-rape-pillage-and-plunder.html

Gordon — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:45:00 -0000

Often it is how we use a word, phrase or a term which can either draw or repel someone. Many of the words found in the Bible are from an entirely different culture to our own. And even in translations which are twenty years old the words can become out of date.

To me it is important that I make Jesus relevant to the culture of today - how does he come across in both the modern and post-modern world? How can we make Him relevant to the needs which are most predominant in people's lives today?

Jesus was flexible in how he treated others - why cannot we be just the same in our conversation with those around us? I am personally very sympathetic to some of the questions which are raised by secular people relating to the validity of scripture and I do not think we have any integrity whatsoever if we are speaking in an 'unknown tongue' to those around us today.

The other day I was delighted to hold conversation with a berobed Hare Krishna young man. What a delight it was to find that he too counted Jesus as his friend, but more so that he considered him to be one of the great avatars of all time. I understood his language because I myself had studied yoga for years. I was familiar with the Gita which he was selling - having read it on countless occasions - even after beocming a follower of Jesus.

So we discussed some of the remarkable accounts about Jesus found in the new testament and I was able to lead him gently to that spiritual Gospel of John; which tells of the amazing avatar in the first fourteen verses. For him a seed had been sown in my field, while I in turn had sown a seed in his field. How blessed we are when we seem able to reach across the chasm of religion and culture, and 'talk the talk and walk the walk' in which others are familiar.

Shawn has highlighted a question which is as relevant today as it was long ago, where Christians were called followers of 'The Way'. Perhaps we too may need to change the words which describe who we are. Modern media tells a frightening story of the terrible harm done to Jews and Muslims by Christians. Perhaps we may need to make our point more clear; that we are followers of the Jesus who existed long before Christianity came on the scene . . .

Today the post-modern mind is once again questioning the part which language plays in both our culture and our thinking; and has developed a distrust for the symbols which tell others about ourselves. I believe we need to constantly explore the meaning of the words we use, so that we still have an answer for those who are willing to enquire not only into the nature of God, but the history of that man who walked and talked alongside the lake of Galilee. Perhaps like the woman who touched Jesus' robe, we need to explore anew the literary fabric of the robe which we touch daily and which tells us so much and yet can still be so elusive to those who would long to reach out to him - such as my young Hari Krishna friend . . .

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/11/book-review-for-sake-of-gospel.html

Gordon — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 01:53:00 -0000

Thanks for that reminder Steve. However it does not seem to have caused much of a stir here.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/11/book-review-for-sake-of-gospel.html

Gordon — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 10:39:00 -0000

I am fascinated. This article was posted on 27 November, and yet there is not a single comment. Is this telling us something?

If I am correct there was an earlier posting on Desmond Ford - there seemed to be very little reaction to that as well. . .

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/11/freed-jesus.html

Gordon — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:21:00 -0000

There is an interesting book called 'Christ across the Ganges' edited by Sandy Bharat. You will pick up reviews on amazon. Another fascinating book is Muriel Orevillo-Montenegro's book 'The Jesus of Asian women'. Once again have a look at Amazon. Don't be put off by the emphasis on christology in the latter book - it is more a consideration of the taking on of beliefs into christianity from within their own asian cultural context.

If we are ever going to make headway with the Muslim world we will have to have a closer look at Jesus as a prophet more than as a saviour who died for the sins of mankind. That is where the link lies with Islam. Luke is especially useful in that regard because of the many parables which illustrate the love and mercy of God. Sometimes we are inclined to 'come at' many of the parables from our evangelical background. I think it may be useful to imagine you were standing in the crowd listening to the story of the prodigal son back two thousand years ago. Today we can be a little too swayed by the christologies which have cluttered the Chrsitian church over the centuries. Nobody who was listening to Jesus at that time would have thought in the least that the forgiven younger son eventually found his place back in the family because of the sacrificial death of Jesus having made such forgiveness possible. At that time it was just God and men/women - with no Jesus as a mediator. Bystanders would simply have accepted that God is inideed forgiving and merciful quite aside from later interpretations - espceically the idea of ransom - that God's mercy had to be 'bought' by Jesus. Muslims would understand the parable to stand just as it is and just as the Jews of that time understood it; God is merciful and that is the end of the story - and Jesus was a prophet who lived to direct others back to God.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/09/foundations-for-ellen-whites-prophetic.html

Gordon — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 04:54:00 -0000

Yes, she was a truly remarkable woman. . .

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/09/remnant-only-adventists.html

Gordon — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:29:00 -0000

Your Adventist-shooting-yourself-in-the-foot style of journalism puzzles me Steve. Why on earth nitpick about something which is really of no consequence when you look at the bigger picture. The very uniqueness of the SDA lifestyle speaks for itself.

The Adventist church has a remarkable vision. It believes wholeheartedly in education, a healthy life-style and in living the good life as it is outlined in both the Old and the New Testaments. And it wraps this holistic lifestyle up in its own particular view of what it is truly to be a Christian - which it spreads through the literature which it publishes, the weekly Sabbath school lessons, the evangelistic outreach program as well as through individual members as well as the many institutions which it sustains through its member's generous offerings. And all praise to a group of people who fervently believe that the Sabbath rest is for the good of humanity and speaks meaningfully and uniquely to a world which in many senses has forgotten that ‘in the beginning God’.

The Adventist message offers a great deal of hope to millions of people around the world – and I believe the world is far better for it. I know this is so because I was an Adventist myself for thirty-two years – and a missionary part of that time. And may I mention that I am very proud to have been associated with such a vision – I saw doctors, teachers, evangelists and laymen all beckoning men, women and young people toward a better lifestyle. Of course the SDA church has made mistakes along the way – just like any other Christian church, but I challenge anyone to fault the Adventist lifestyle.

But do tell me Steve - what is so arrogant about the remnant view - Christians at large speak of Jesus as 'the only way to eternal life' (and quote the Gospel of John copiously in doing so); thus making themselves a remnant amongst the multiplicity of non-Christian voices shouting out their particular brand of religion. Surely that could be considered the very height of arrogance – after all, the Abrahamic faith certainly has not reached every heart and mind, so we have to surely suppose that the millions who die daily are not in the least excluded from the ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ if they have followed their own sacred path faithfully.

Unless you are sincerely wishing to point out that Adventists have a nasty strain of self-righteousness – which I do not believe the majority have, any more than other Christians may – then I find your use of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector both silly and disingenuous.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/09/book-review-desmond-ford-reformist.html

Gordon — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 02:30:00 -0000

I am surprised at the lack of comments on this article/posting. Is this now a non-issue in the SDA church?

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/08/i-wish-they-were-emeralds.html

Gordon — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:06:00 -0000

Andy: "I want to thank all of you for taking time to read what I have to say, here and elsewhere. I wouldn’t write or post cartoons if I didn’t care deeply about the future of the Adventist Church."

Thanks for your regular postings Andy. I always appreciate the opportunity to reflect and what you are saying - and also to read the comments of others. Often the comments start off slowly then gather a momentum of their own.

I think the quintessence of your postings are found in your words "I care . . . about the future of the Adventist church.

I was a Seventh-day Adventist for 32 years and enjoyed every moment of my time spent as a Sabbath School teacher (27 or so years), as a church worker and later as a missionary. I am always delighted with the good work the SDA church does throughout the world by its many teachers, doctors, dentist and nurses and by the laymen and women who so often set a fine example of what Christianity is all about.

I sense in many of your postings the angst which is felt by many members in the western world - how do we come to grips with challenges which Seventh-day Adventism has never had to face in the past. the good old days of evangelistic 'efforts' seem to have largely passed by, and now Christianity has to take a seat in the multicultural world which Europe has so willingly espoused.

And yet here and there I glimpse new opportunities. No doubt the shape of the church may change - but hey! its all about Jesus - whether in the workplace or on the playground or in larger society we will always find ways to witness creatively to a world which is now more interested in Jesus and less interested in church.

Re: How to Embed Images and Music on your Blog Easily

Gordon — Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:30:00 -0000

Todd,
Sorry to bother you.

I figured out how to embed Animoto on my website.

This is a great tool. I have made up a number of slideshows from it.

Thanks for finding it.
Regards,
Gord Bell
Beauview Cottage Resort

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Gordon — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 02:53:00 -0000

Richard: that "The Bible does not condemn slavery and its treatment of women is horrendous in todays understandings of equality. Its civil code makes liberal use of the death penalty even for minor infractions and some that we wouldn't even consider to be infractions today such as gathering wood on the Sabbath."

NT Wright ('The Meaning of Jesus' - Borg and Wright) was at one time a college chaplain at Oxford and tells of how he would interview students at the commencement of their degree courses. Those interviewed would often tell him "Oh, I don't believe in God" to which he would enquire - "what kind of God is that?". They would then go on to describe exactly the kind of God which you have described above.

His reply was always "Well, I don't believe in that type of God either". We can all gain inspiration and direction in life from the Bible without having to swallow it hook, line and sinker. Of course it is full of iron age accretions - including the one about the support of slavery. However never forget it was evangelicals (not that I am one of them, but lets be honest about it anyway) who opposed slavery on the basis of it not being the Christian thing to do.

There comes a time when we all need to develop in our faith journey; just as Wilberforce and many other evangelicals had to do. It is interesting to notice that the same NT Wright seems to be moving along a bit when it comes to his view of the state of the dead - and then also on the normal evangelical view of Paul's justification by faith theology. So we all need to grow in our understanding of God.

I would be very reluctant to state that the Bible holds no guidance for me, the Old Testament laws were still very remarkable for their time, anyway . . .

I do agree with both your and Ellamae's experience of those 'aha' moments - I find them in reading some of the Hindu scriptures - but the finest momets for me are still embedded within the Old and the New Testaments. After all, God's greatest 'aha' moment was when Jesus walked, talked, dined and then finally died in Palestine.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Gordon — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 13:47:00 -0000

Your comment "Christianity's reputation in the world today is very poor" is deeply flawed. Quite to the contrary, whatever some may think there is a huge number of people out there who simply would not buy that one at all.

You may be speaking about North America and large parts of Europe, however that is not the whole world. One simply cannot ignore the vast millions of people who attend church regularly. Currently the west may be going through a process of reassessing christianity, nevertheless a large part of the world is not at that perticulary place and probably never will be. Christianity is a growing faith - whatever its problems may be. The interesting point is that so much of the world has passed by rationalism, the enlightenemnt and all manner of other fascinations without falling prey to thinking no further than their own particular mindset.

Your point that "Jesus fares pretty well" ignores the fact that Jesus is to be found within Christianity as well as outside of the church.

It might be better to say that a large part of the world is tired of certain American Christian churches - at the moment the UK is being infected with the Benny Hinn/Toronto Blessing/Ted Hagard/ type mentality - and it is certainly discrediting Christianity.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Gordon — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:45:00 -0000

Thanks for your comments Richard - and to Andy for raising the issue. The gospels are certainly full of all type of agendas which I consider important for us to be able to understand today.

The publishing world is awash with books on Jesus - and here I am not speaking about the evangelical or fundamentalist world, but the scholarly field. Both your and my differences of opinion could go on forever - the scholarly resources are there to feed the debate.

And then many scholars today are writing for the popular press - Geza Vermes, Crossan, Marcus Borg, NT Wright, Karen Armstrong and a host of others. A friend of mine has just finished Schweitzer's "Quest for the Historical Jesus" and has passed it on to a friend of his. Schweitzer resurrected! Who would have thought of such a thing - and being read by a very ordinary non-scholarly type - fascinatinng! There seems never to have been such a great interest in Jesus by men and women from all walks of life as there is today. Never before have congregations been so widely informed on the subject of Jesus - we live in exciting times! Everybody seems to want to know what Jesus was really getting at . . .

And they are not going to their ministers for answers - they are thinking it through for themselves.

In one of my posts on another forum I spoke of how, when reading the original accounts and comparing the redactive activities and agendas of each writer one gains an impression of those times which seems lacking in our churches today. Certainly I sense that many people who attend church these days are far more informed on Jesus' agenda than the pastor/priest or minister!

I am currently busy on a project with one of the Bible translations. It is one I have used since 1982 - that's 26 years. I am sure you are aware that there are many parallel synopses of the synoptics available. However the particluar version I am working on does not have such a parallel version available.

Well, I have literally (almost)torn the three apart digitally, and am placing each account side by side. This is a project which I am deeply interested in as it relates to my interest in the synoptic problem.

The particular version I am using may not be the most accurate version available as it relates to word-to-word translation, however I am more interested in the main thrust of the story - numerous translators adopt that approach nowadays - for good reason - we need to move beyond the pedantics of what or what not a word means exactly - as if it has any bearing on our spiritual journey. I am using the greek to guide me, however that is not really the point.

But, once again, what interests me as I proofread and compare each account side by side is how Matthew and Luke have redacted Marks' account for their own purposes in many instances.

So there we are - one experiences a greater proximity to the time of Jesus as one works at this type of project. I have also come to realise more clearly what JB Phillips means when he says that as a translator he sensed the 'ring of truth' about the Jesus account. One almost feels one is right there at the time the gospels were put together

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Gordon — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:17:00 -0000

Richard, could Mark be dated as late as 200 CE?

It is far more likely to have occurred before or soon after the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem; that view is supported by most scholars today. Generally acknowledged as having been written from Rome to non-Jewish Christians, it is hardly likely to have come from a later period for a number of reasons. One of the arguments is that the writer does not use the later highly developed Christology which is found in the Gospel of John – although Mark does bear witness to Jesus as the son of God both at the beginning and the close of his gospel (Mark 1.1 and 15:39). And now the latest scholarship on the Gospel of John dates that writing to about 100-120 CE – although JAT Robinson would date it as early as 60 or 90 CE . . .

* * * *
In passing I must mention that the highly acclaimed professor under whom Ehrman studied while at Princeton (Dr Bruce Metzger) wrote disparagingly about the Hellenistic influence to the extent that Bart Ehrman would have us believe. In his book “The New Testament – its background, growth and content”, Nashville, Abingdon Press, (1983 2nd edition, enlarged) page 245, writes:

“During the past generation it was fashionable in some circles to argue that Paul’s theology shows evidence of having been influenced by the mystery religions. Particularly it was contended ….. the whole concept of a dying, rising God were obvious borrowings from contemporary pagan cults.
Today it is generally believed that Paul’s heritage, so far from being basically Hellenistic, was essentially rabbinical, and that his Christian orientation was broadly shared by his predecessors within the primitive Palestinian church”

* * * * *

Perhaps we need to examine the very early Christian view of Jesus as a divine being who is worshipped as the son of God. Such an examination will bring into sharp focus the dilemma that the rabbi Paul and the early Jewish followers of Jesus had to contend with: trying to understand what Jesus was all about, and who he was – all these questions needed to be asked within the context of a reported resurrection.

The Jewish people were deeply and avowedly monotheistic. The intensity of Jewish monotheism, especially after the return from exile in 538 BCE and notably during the Maccabean revolt is clearly and loudly echoed by Jesus in the synoptic gospels. See for instance: “no one is good except God alone” (Mark 10:18), and “A teacher of the law was there . . . so he came to Jesus with a question “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus replied “The most important one is this: ‘Listen Israel! The Lord our God is the only Lord’” (Mark 12:29 – both verses are paralleled in Matthew and Luke). Monotheism is of course strongly expressed in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I find it strange that the synoptics have Jesus speak of one God – where he depicts himself as Messiah (Mark 8) – and not necessarily divine, while Ehrman would have us believe that the gospels and (the earlier) writings of Paul are in fact painting a picture (or fabricating a legend) in which Jesus is described as a legendary God of the mystery religions. If you would have us date Mark (the basis of the other two gospels – especially Matthew) as so late, then even more so should that gospel exhibit signs of a high Christology – and yet it does not at all. In fact I find no signs of a mystery religion legend in any of the synoptics – or John for that matter (that gospel is distinctly Jewish).

The Jerusalem church debate (Acts 15) relating to non-Jewish customs all have an anchor point in the basic premise that ‘The Way’ is truly founded on the Old Testament scriptures, not on the Hellenistic or Roman mystery religions.

Paul emphasises the monotheistic foundations of his faith in such verses as Romans 1:4, 1:19 (Jesus’ obedience to God), Philippians 2: 6-11 and Colossians 1: 15-22. His masterly argument found in the first six chapters of Romans is the greatest contribution of all to the debate about what Jesus was all about – and the consequences of the resurrection. Who was he and how did he fit into the Jewish scheme of things? Using midrashic tools he finds Jesus in the Old Testament, much as the synoptics do in their view of a suffering messiah – unheard of in both Old Testament or apocryphal writings. Jesus is never viewed in the same light as the pantheon of the gods of the mystery religions – his life, death and resurrection is always viewed as having firm foundations within the Old Testament.

Far from being an invented story made up by a Jew-turned-Hellenist, Paul is writing from within the context of Judaism about a truly historical occurrence – the resurrection; and it’s consequences for a Jewish understanding of what it is all about. He had to place Jesus somewhere or other within the context of his Jewish background – not within a panoply of the gods of the mystery religions.

* * * *

Ehrman gained his initial biblical training at Moody Bible Institute, where the Bible is taught as a “divine revelation, the original autographs of which were verbally inspired by the Holy Spirit”. Such a landscape of belief is highly populated but often ends tragically when it is discovered that the writers of scripture were ordinary human beings like you and I, who were struggling to make sense of the enigmatic Jesus and his resurrection. And come to grips with the astounding possibility of a divine figure who walked, talked, dined and slept amongst them and yet was somehow very different to any other man we find in history – certainly not the stuff of legends.

Perhaps Darrell Bock has it right when speaking about Bart Ehrman’s view as a Christian scholar:

I think Bart is writing about his personal journey, about legitimate things that bother him. . . . Even if I don’t have a high-definition photograph of the empty tomb to prove Christ’s resurrection, there’s the reaction to something after Christ died that is very hard to explain away . . . There was no resurrection tradition in Jewish theology. Where did it come from? How did these illiterate, impoverished fishermen create such a powerful religion?”

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Gordon — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 17:11:00 -0000

The Ebionites view of Jesus is remarkably close to those of the Essenes and other Jewish groups during the intertestamental period. It seems that Mark’s record of Peter’s view of Jesus (expressed in Mark 8) is also in line with Messianic expectations of that time.

However there does seem to be a remarkable change which takes place with those early disciples after the resurrection – not gentiles but Jews. A fearful group of eleven men as well as other followers of Jesus – women included – suddenly become emboldened to declare Him the divine Son of God. That is also the case with the earliest New Testament writings – not the gospels but the earlier, Pauline epistles.

How was it possible that thoroughly monotheistic Jewish believers now become worshippers of a divine Jesus? I think it has something to do with the resurrection. When we read accounts in the book of Acts we could just as well be touching the fabric of history – not a Hellenized fabrication.

Matthew, or whoever wrote that gospel goes to great pains, (using midrashic tools) to tear Old Testament texts quite out of context to prove a point - that Jesus was indeed the long awaited Son of God; and a divine son at that. What else could he do – he was faced with the accounts of a resurrected Messiah – perhaps the writer was a witness of the risen Jesus himself? As Richard Bauckham mentions in his book “Jesus and the Eyewitnesses”, many of those who witnessed and knew Jesus must have read the gospel accounts – it is highly unlikely that there would not have been vigorous opposition to such a view of Jesus as we find in Matthew if there was not some grain of truth in the resurrection accounts.

I am not denying that there were other views of Jesus about – including Gnostic ones – however I find the gospel accounts as probably the most feasible. It seems too that the writer of the letter to the Hebrews is not so much trying to prove a point, as to come to terms within his Jewish context of a risen Jesus – who was He and what did He accomplish. Once again, we may not have to accept everything the writer has to say, but we do sense that he is coming to terms (within the limits of his own Jewish worldview) with a remarkable historical occurrence.

I do respect your view Richard, however it does not entirely seem to have the ring of truth about it regarding the phenomenal changes which took place in the lives of those early Jewish believers – either with their remarkable new view of Jesus within a monotheistic belief system or their changed lives. And here we are not talking about gentiles – we are considering only Jewish believers.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Gordon — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 17:36:00 -0000

"When you study this in detail you soon become aware that there is sufficient evidence to indicate that the books we have about Jesus have a tremendously distorted version of who Jesus was and were largely later Hellenized versions of Jesus." - Richard Harty

Richard, could you be a little more specific. What kind of Jesus are you suggesting was the original non-hellenised Jesus?

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Gordon — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:30:00 -0000

Did that article really appear? I cannot believe that such a silly, nonsensical and ignorant assertion could be made about the Biblical canon.

Does this say something about the level of the Ministry readership, that they should even consider such utter nonsense? Where was the editor - on holiday?

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/women-defying-church.html

Gordon — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 02:45:00 -0000

I mentioned on another discussion here that I have just completed reading Elizabeth Fiorenza's book 'In Memory of Her'. Unfortunatley it is full of jargon and somewhat pedantic, however she has made a major contribution to christian feminism and the question of women's rights in the church (she is Roman Catholic).

Her hermeneutics of suspicion regarding the male dominated accounts in both the Old and the New Testament deserve a little more attention than they have been given in evangelical churches. Some of the shocking cultural views of women expressed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy make me sometimes wonder what the creation account would look like if it had been written by a woman - I am quite sure it would have been Adam rather than Eve who had tasted the forbidden fruit.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/fifth-day.html

Gordon — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 04:41:00 -0000

Thank you for your comments Charles - and also the book title.

Some twenty or so years ago one of the publishing houses in America published Richard Rice's book 'The Openess of God'. I understand he is now a professor at Loma Linda University. You can read what subsequently happened to his book here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rice
<... book may well be worth including in your reading list relating to the openess of God toward history. No doubt it does pose problems, whichever way we look at God, but I feel it is essential to try and grasp the nettle rather than cutting it down and completely ignoring it.

In my own experience I see the Old Testament as a remarkable ancient 'think tank' about God - see for instance the psalms, which express so many different views of God; Ecclesiastes, Chronicles - a differing view on earlier history. And then also the second creation account found in Genesis. And what about the contrasting accounts of Jesus expressed in the Synoptics as against the Gospel of John.

The above is all about a fascinating literary effort to come to grips with who God is. But finally I do believe that Jesus and scripture, both windows to God may not be ignored. THey are two vital solutions to the puzzle about the meaning of life.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/fifth-day.html

Gordon — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:40:00 -0000

Is Andy really serius? Oh well, he may be - who knows . . . perhaps he is trying to tease out some or other solution to the age old question of good and evil - or should I say the question of God and evil? If Andy is serious then it's a tough one.

Perhaps we may need to return to history to remind ourselves that the Biblical account which you have outlined does have serious problems - and I am sure you are aware of those. However I would like to give the question some perspective, if I may.

I suspect we may have to accept that the Genesis account IS a myth - a bold effort by an ancient people to shape an account of creation which takes care of the eternal question of pain and suffering. I sense that those altogether remarkable and thrilling words 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth' hint at a far greater mystery which lie beyond the layers of the 'story' of the mythical fruit - which so tragically imparted a knowledge of good and evil.

The book of Job approached the question head on (or did it?) by simply having God tell us to mind our own business - and the cat and mouse/great-white-shark conundrum was thereby laid aside for greater minds than ours to contemplate.

I must accept Job's non-conclusion, simply because we can propose no solution ourselves - in spite of contemporary Jewish scholars' noble attempts at doing so. I like to think that there are evidences lying scattered all over the planet which hint at an intelligent designer - consider the biochemistry of the photosynthetic process. But I do hesitate to go beyond the admission that there is an intelligent 'God' out there - unless of course we accept the often expressed thought that when it is all over and done with we would not have wanted it any other way. But then again, that may be a terrible insult to those who have suffered through the ages for no reason at all.

However, going back just a little in history we need to remember the holocaust, and ask why a loving all-knowing God would allow such a scenario to occur. Shattered families, gassed women and children, a completely scarred history - would you as an all-knowing mother wish to give birth to children when you know the outcome of such an action.

I would especially commend to you the book written by one Jewish Holocaust scholar '...and Heaven shed no tears' - Henry Herzog, Menard Press 1996. An excellent article, which may lead us further into Holocaust studies is found at Wikipedia. Although the article is incomplete, nevertheless there are some challenging and creative thoughts expressed by the gifted minds of Jewish scholars (as well as a few Christians).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_theology

(An all-knowing mother? I suspect that if the Genesis account was written and finally edited by female scribes it would not have been Eve that ate the apple, but Adam - I merely echo the thoughts of Elizabeth Shussler Fiorenza?)

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/fifth-day.html

Gordon — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 01:55:00 -0000

If God did not create the great white, then who did?

I guess the question which Andy is really asking is: "What kind of God would create a mouse, and then create the cat to eat the mouse". Is it the same God who speaks of love for all mankind in the Hebrew bible - or is it perhaps no God at all - it simply evolved over time by a non-interventionist God? Or perhaps it just happened over time - end of story.

The question is as old as time itself, and still awaits an answer.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/can-we-coexist.html

Gordon — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 02:14:00 -0000

" . . . I think we owe it to the world to share what we know out of love without an agenda attached to it. . . "

Thanks Travis. If there is an almighty God He is surely not going to condemn the billions who may never have known Him but nevertheless walk the way He would have them walk.

But Jesus is the better way and I do believe that many would be prepared to admit that; if we were to present Him for whom He is and not necessarily whom we have made Him out to be.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/can-we-coexist.html

Gordon — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 16:24:00 -0000

Coexistance we certainly will have to contemplate. It is hardly likely that any of the eight great religions of the world are about to embrace Christianity as the majority of us would understand our faith.

I am reminded of Mahatma Gandhi, who spoke for Hinduism when he turned away from the western model. It was in his early days. He had resided at a Methodist minister's home for some time in Durban and had listened intently to that good man's exposition of the Christian life. He finally asked a very pointed question, which reaches into the heart of Hinduism "Will Christianity make me sinless?" When the minister replied in the negative the Mahatma said it was not for him. However although he never embraced Christianity he did embrace Christ.

And I suppose that is the most difficult idea for a Christian to accept - people of other faiths will readily embrace Christ - but it may well not be the Christ that two thousand years of councils, creeds and all manner of theologies have striven to give shape and form to Jesus.

Islam readily accepts Jesus as a prophet - but not the greatest prophet. However that is a giant step forward to understanding just one aspect of who Jesus might have been. Hindus will accept him as one of many avatars, Jews are increasingly accepting Jesus (but not Christ) as a great rabbi - perhaps even greater than some of the rabbis of the Mishna - and so it goes on.

Perhaps we may well need to learn to walk alongside rather than contrary to those of other faiths. This will no doubt be a strange word to us, however perhaps it may well bring us peace - which Christianity has certainly not achieved - and neither the faith of Abraham before that time.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/06/exercising-feminine-aspect.html

Gordon — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 04:52:00 -0000

Yes, I would say that Fiorenza is an important author to consider when reflecting on feminist theology. Perhaps Bauckham tries to balance it a litle in his book 'Gospel Women'. Where Fiorenza's use of literary/historical tools might lead us in directions away from scripture Bauckham will squeeze the last drop of water out of a text to gain a fuller understanding of women's place in scripture.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/06/exercising-feminine-aspect.html

Gordon — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 04:54:00 -0000

Julie, I have just scanned Elizabeth Schuster Fiorenza'a book 'In Memory of Her' for the second time. I so enjoy her view of scripture.

There is absolutely no doubt that if women had written large tracts of scripture it would have been from an entirely different perspective. No wonder we 'see' God from the perspective of men - after all it is written primarily by men. Certainly the Biblical view of women expressed in those early days in Leviticus and Deuteronomy do not place too high a value on women.

I think Fiorenza has something important to say when she hints at the subversive nature of scripture. To me the important point is that scripture subverts itself - Jesus truly passes judgement or subverts the Old Testament where a woman is to be stoned for adultery - and so on.

To me this places a higher value on the nature and purpose of the written Word. We are surely to delve more deeply into exactly how and why the writers redact accounts the way they do in both the Old Testament and the New. Context and retoric is also vitally important.

I wonder sometimes whether Barth's ground-breaking comment on scripture is not of major importance where he speaks of scripture as not being the word of God but rather revealing the Word of God - in Jesus himself.

Anyway, that is not half the story of women's struggle for a place in the sun.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/06/circumstantial-faith.html

Gordon — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:02:00 -0000

Huston Smith, the author of 'The World's Religions', the leading comparative religions textbook for over three decades, is interviewed by Rev Alan Jones of Grace Cathedral.

Smith is a highly respected and eminently gentle (as well as aged - he is 86 years old but still active) Christian who was born in china of Methodist missionery parents. He speaks of the 'geography' and happenstance of his faith, while at the same time reminding us of the universality of the eight great religion's ethical principles.

http://www.gracecathedral.org/enrichment/interviews/int_19971125.shtml

Elsewhere (on the Washington Cathedral website) Huston Smith talks about why he considers Christianity to be unique amongst the world's religions. He is certainly a man who is worth listening to, because he has the experience of wisdom discovered through much reflection as well as a long life.

When I am faced by the power which lies within such wisdom, intelligence, and finally spirituality I am made aware of how the very narrow view of my faith is truly humbled by a God who is far greater than we sometimes give credence.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/06/circumstantial-faith.html

Gordon — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 04:37:00 -0000

I have just glanced at a few chapters from Muriel Orevillo-Montenegro's book 'The Jesus of Asian Women - Women from the margins'. I find such books helpful - one soon begins to realise that Jesus is not the property of my own culture - if anything our culture often warps our view of Him. And so it goes for the women of Asia - some have found in Jesus entirely different reflections of God from those we are used to in the West.

I intend once again visiting my own roots - Hinduism - which I left nearly fifty years ago - in a book which I have just ordered - 'Christ across the Ganges - Hindu responses to Jesus'. I think it is useful to explore Jesus in different contexts as it helps us to relate more sympathetically to others who may see Him differently.

I remember so clearly that day when I stood at the bedside of my guru, who was dying of kidney failure. I had attended his ashram for some three years. He looked up at me and told me that I would eventually find God through Christianity. Quite a few years would go by before I 'fell' into christianity - quite by chance I thought.

My memory stilll respects Muthray Pillay and all he stood for - he was never a part of my culture so His Jesus was in many ways different to mine - and yet in the essentials Jesus held a very high position in his reckoning.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/04/bible-homosexuality-and-christianity.html

Gordon — Sun, 04 May 2008 00:50:00 -0000

This is a hard one . . .

Why? Not because I am prisoner to an abominable belief that women do not count as much as men (Leviticus) - or that a woman can be stoned in front of her father's tent due to no fault of her own (also Leviticus) - or that a young man or woman emerging from a pre-pubescent existence is damned by the attraction for his or her own kind, which may lie deeply embedded within their own psyche.

A young man or woman's attraction for the same sex is abominable in the face of God - when it is often not of their own making? How strange . . . It reminds me of those days gone by where the Zulu would crush the skulls of newborn twins because it was an abomination to their view of what life was all about - and of what lay beyond life and death.

Justin Cannon’s distorted hermeneutic is just as flawed as his fundamentalist belief that it is God who speaks in Leviticus. Let us admit that the ancient Semite people were indeed repelled by same-sex relationships. While I do not want to deny that there is much in Leviticus that I admire, why on earth should I want to accept the book in it’s entirety as divinely inspired – and then spend time trying to prove that it has been incorrectly translated?

To equate paedophilia, murder, robbery and all the other crimes of mankind with a loving same sex relationship is surely far more abominable than the so-called abomination of homosexuality (or lesbianism). It is deeply unkind to express such a sentiment. I certainly do not care for the type of debauchery which is so often found amongst same-sex or heterosexual couples, however that is a far cry from a loving and sincere relationship – damned by a society which simply fears the unknown - and the mysterious.

So why is it so difficult to reconcile with my own world-view – same sex relationships simply do not seem to be natural (forgive me for my candour). Perhaps it may well be due to some or other aberration of nature – who knows? It is a mystery why such a type of relationship should exist. And it will be inevitable that such mysteries will impel us to search out a theory of origins which will somehow account for a kinder God than the one described in ancient Hebrew literature. Would an omniscient God create a prehistoric Adam and Eve in a world in which they find themselves damned by the possibility of annihilation and terrible self-destruction through an act of imposed choice? So often we neglect the other side of such a beautiful nascent world – a created world which has the spectre of terror and death. Need we enter history to recount the catalogue of horrors which lie there?

Why such a God? Before we arrive at such a notion let us imagine our own child is already marked out for death in some or other corridor of history. Or perhaps your child is lying in the cradle of same-sex attraction – damned by it’s creator to be an abomination to mankind. What a remarkable God that would be . . .

Many years back Richard Rice wrote a challenging book titled 'The openness of God: The relationship of divine foreknowledge and human free will'. The book was originally published by the Seventh-day Adventist church; however due to the great deal of controversy which it generated it was never republished by the Review and Herald. It is a great pity that more Adventists are not aware of this publication. I believe it is an endeavour to visualise a kinder God – perhaps a prisoner to unfolding history, but nevertheless a kinder God. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rice).<BR/... is ‘as of 2007’ . . . professor of theology and philosophy of religion at the SDA Loma Linda University in California.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/04/not-bad-idea.html

Gordon — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 03:20:00 -0000

We live in a different age in some areas of the world. Jesus once said "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts." (Mark 6:8); and one of the writers even admonishes against taking a staff. However today the church had better take care of all these assets - tithe payers will hold administrators responsible.

I have no doubt that Paul Ratsara (Mark's Six Sigma link) will call into being a flurry of seminars - all the way down to the humble worker at the bottom of the pile. I experienced that myself while in one of the African Divisions. Like Mark, I came from a commercial background to run a publishing house as well as act as a consultant at division level. The print end of the publishing department certainly needed an overhaul in some areas.

At the same time it is a mistaken belief where churches sense that better administration is a cure-all for today's ills - it certainly is not. I remember the call in Africa for nationalisation - and the subsequent warnings sounded by some Union presidents who knew that the dollars would not flow quite so quickly to some of our institutions as a consequence. And that was quite correct - some institutions simply evaporated into thin air.

But hey! The church in Africa grew and grew - baptismal figures went through the roof in some countries. Perhaps the onset of AIDS set it off, but the church certainly did not need better run hospitals, clinics, schools and the like to bring about growth. And yet all these things are necessary if the SDA church is to continue lifting people out of the miserable conditions they are often found in.

If a pastor is enabled to travel further through the proper stewardship of allowances all the better. I remember R H Pierson visiting our church years ago in a university town in South Africa. I am so glad he did - his deeply spiritual influence touched the lives of numerous young people, who later served as missionaries in Africa - one sacrificing his life in the effort to reach out to others.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/04/white-estate-responds-to-tom-norris.html

Gordon — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 04:27:00 -0000

If I may venture to say so, I find the phrase 'enemies of Ellen White' a little difficult to understand. Ellen White is the author of many books and as a consequence she is obviously open to a fair amount of criticism. In my opinion I think we need to move a little away from the overtly 'religious' criticism of EGW and a little closer to an analysis of the historical background etc.

This has been done considerably and I think the results are quite revealing. However, I wonder if, in the instance of both Tom Norris and johnny workentine we are looking at two viewpoints which are in reality quite similar. I think it would be more profitable to this forum if we considered the more academic issues involved.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/what-really-matters.html

Gordon — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:54:00 -0000

We often impose on others (and ourselves for that matter) a God who is foreign to reality. I am quite sure the ancient patriachs struggled as much as we do to make sense of the universe. Last month Scientific American had it that there are approximately 400 billion galaxies out there. How many stars does that make - and planets, by the way.

It's reminds me very much of Lewis's trilemma - trying to put Jesus into a box with no more than three options regarding who he 'really' was. The most exciting quest for each of us is to discover the truth about God as the frontiers of knowledge recede before us.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/what-really-matters.html

Gordon — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:31:00 -0000

What really matters is that Jesus was a historical figure. He walked this earth and made such a difference that millions follow him, and would be prepared to die for him today. And what a motley crowd these followers of his are - from those who may be fundamentalists to those who may be liberal when it comes to scripture.

His divinity? His resurrection? The inspiration of scripture? Jesus would not be the least offended if we believed in none of these. What is important is what we do with him when he confronts us with the demands of his kingdom.

It is we who make religion complicated by the sillinesses of our so-called religious logic . . .

To paraphrase Albert Schweitzer in his book The Quest of the Historical Jesus what have we made of the great imperious sayings of the Lord; how we have weakened down His imperative world-contemning demands upon individuals. We have often turned aside from those great demands and offered to mankind a self-centred religion which is more concerned with the ego than with his kingdom at large.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/exorcising-our-demons.html

Gordon — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:16:00 -0000

As I have watched this 'African game' unravel in Zimbabwe, it has reminded me of what transpired when Mandela was released from prison in South Africa. As I had written in early 1990 the decision by de Klerk would signall the end of an era to some countries in the southern region. Hastings Banda's dictatorial regime in Malawi came to an end - and was followed shortly after by Kenneth Kaunda's loss of power in Zambia. And yet McMillan's 'Winds of Change' address to the South African parliament in 1960 is only partially fulfilled.

If Tsvangirai comes to power - or the Zimbabwean situation is resolved through negotiation amongst the power brokers, it may well trigger deep heartsearching amongst the black people of South Africa. They will be faced with an extraordinary situation in Zimbabwe - their neighbours have repossessed their land - where do we now stand at this point in our history? The call for the redistribution of land in South Africa will become an ever more urgent and insistent issue as Zimbabwe settles back into normality. It is possible that the final war against colonialism will have reached the borders of South Africa. What has been achieved in South Africa may well be considered as limited when compared to the unresolved land issue in that country - something intensely close to the hearts of African men and women.

Morgan Tsvangirai? I doubt very much that he is going to hand back land to whites - if he comes to power. I also doubt that Whitehall is about to suggest that to him either. I do not think he would last another day if he wrested farms out of the hands of blacks. Will the just redistribution of land amongst blacks take place? It all depends how much political clout Tsvangirai will have available.

Ultimately Mugabe will be remembered for taking the land back - not for the destruction he has wrought on black Zimbabweans - that is the way of Africa. Like all Zimbabwean freedom fighters of repute, he will one day be buried with full honours at Heroes acre in Harare.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/exorcising-our-demons.html

Gordon — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:15:00 -0000

I think it is about practicalities and the immediacy of the problem. The pain in Africa is still raw, and fresh - and with their own eyes they can see people living off the fat of the land - when only 30 or so years ago (Zimbabwe) they fought a war over that very land. I hardly imagine we could suggest to South Africans and Zimbabweans that they continue to watch that kind of scene continue.

Israel? As an Israeli friend once said to me: "there is absolutely no solution there" - and that is a sabra speaking. Sad . . .

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/exorcising-our-demons.html

Gordon — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:05:00 -0000

I neglected to mention that the 'black spots' next to our farm in Natal were brutally removed by the apartheid government. The former owners were given a pittance, while whites were able to buy the land for a very reasonable price.

I also have much personal experience regarding the ownership of land in Zimbabwe. I travelled every two months from Nyamapanda to Harare to Karoi to the Chirundu valley and then back to Bulawayo, past Norton back to Harare and on down to Masvingo and so on. To put it plainly, the unfair distribution of land was unbelievable - it was simply a status quo from colonial and post colonial days. I blame both the British, the Americans and Mugabe for not having resolved this matter long ago. (Remember it was Henry Kissinger who stronly cautioned against paying out the white farmers at the time of independence).

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/exorcising-our-demons.html

Gordon — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:30:00 -0000

Melvin, you have addressed an issue which I really did not want to write about.

I lived in Africa for 57 years and was subject to the same type of logic in the South African apartheid government school history curriculum - which I studied for ten years - part of that time was spent in an Afrikaans school. The land not only belonged to the whites in their apartheid ideology - the 'blacks' never had a right to it anyway. We all condemn the way the land has been taken back in Zimbabwe, but we cannot deny the return of land which was taken through the force of gunpowder, unfair treaties etc.

There is one political reality which awaits resolution - a fairer distribution of land in South Africa. Alongside our farm in Natal we had 'black spots' (the apartheid name for black areas) in 1948, when the Nationalist party came to power. Those 'black spots' were often small farms. For generations blacks had lived there - their ancestors had lived and been buried there. Unless the land issue is settled quickly, and very substantially, there will be a repetition of the situation in Zimbabwe.

From this side of the big pond there is much anger and disgust at the American/British invasion of Iraq and the one-sided approach to the Palestinian situation.

Regarding the Reverned Wright - certainly we may not agree with all he has said. I am no admirer of Wright. However that is not my point. Let's not use the argument of Ephesians 4:31 to stop the mouth of those who speak out against injustice perpetrated both globally and locally. There is still a place for the prophet - however uncomfortable his message may be. I would hardly describe the main thrust of his message as being false to the Biblical message of the prophets.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/exorcising-our-demons.html

Gordon — Tue, 25 Mar 2008 06:07:00 -0000

Bishops, priests, pastors, reverends, dominees or whatever are not called to preach gentle answers.

armed2win we may not agree with the Reverend Wright, however your words and your choice of biblical texts were on the lips of the leaders of apartheid South Africa - the place of the 'these meddlesome priests' was not to be in the in the political arena. Such views constantly appeared in the columns of the Nationalist party press; preach love!

Many whites came to view men such as Archbishop Tutu, Father Trevor Huddleston and Alex Borain as a troublemakers who should stay out of politics. This is a complete travesty of what the religion of the great prophets was all about. Let us never forget that they too had the words of the ancient book of Proverbs close at hand - nevertheless they chose to speak out.

And Jesus, the greatest political activist of all time never kept his mouth closed when it came to challenging those adroit politicians the saducees - and those shadowy figures the Pharisees - who would later (66 AD or thereabouts) revert once again to political machinations such as they were capable of during the Hasmonean period.

Do we need to seek refuge in the soppy sentimentalism of that type of christianity which finds a clarion call in the words 'gentle Jesus, meek and mild'? Let the prophets of our world roar like lions, and let their unwelcome words ring out, however much we may disagree with the message they bear.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/reasons-for-which-seventh-day-adventist.html

Gordon — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 04:28:00 -0000

Hmm . . .

Well, I guess in the case of No. 4this is definitely not the voice of the Anglican/Episcopalian church.

Denial of the faith? I would hope this does not mean a closure on honest questions which need to be asked in this age of modernism/post-modernism?

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/02/ordination-of-women.html

Gordon — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 05:31:00 -0000

Ordination? I think the problem comes not so much with ordination as with the ordinand. Too often they believe themselves to be God Almighty speaking. (Benny Hinn is a good example).

We do need theologically well educated men and women to lead. Ultimately, whether we ordain or not they are going to end up with some or other title - whether it be 'pastor', 'Father', 'Reverend' 'Team leader', 'Director' or whatever.

I am not so sure that I can agree with Paul regarding the priesthood of all believers. I have taught for years and have discovered that many people will never attain to that status, simply because they are followers and not leaders.

Perhaps Paul is talking about an activity to be aimed for - the church certainly has not reached that point.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/02/rap-session-tom-norris.html

Gordon — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 09:25:00 -0000

. . . At bottom, the whole debate is really on how God reveals Himself and I think we will have many surprises in heaven about the Scriptures; we will probably find out that God is much bigger than the Bible or Christianity . . .

I can agree wholeheartedly with your final comment, Andre.

Jesus is greater than it all, and I think that is the reason why Karl Barth spoke of the Word of God as being Jesus himself rather than the Bible. In the final analysis it is Jesus who is the window to God, not scripture. Certainly we catch glimpses of Him in both the Old and the New Testament, and in most instances it is quite sufficient for our needs. The Bible is surely a very human expression of the divine, (somewhere or other I think EGW expresses it that way)but where we gain glimpses of Jesus, we truly do find that we have in some way or other touched God himself.

But to use it as some kind of prophetic manual (Three Angels Message/Investigative Judgement) surely stretches it beyond credibility. We only have to look at the post exilic literature and the writings of the intertestamental period - including the pesher of such groups as the Essenes - to realise just how inadequate scripture is for that purpose.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/02/rap-session-tom-norris.html

Gordon — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 05:11:00 -0000

I find Ellen White to be a remarkabley sensible woman, taking into consideration the times and the context in which she wrote.

Of course we should apply literary/historical criticism to the writings of EGW - just as we do to any other literary genre - we will then conclude she was an eminently sensible, mature woman in her later years.

I think the biggest problem which the SDA church faces is that the powers-what-be will not come out and be honest about her writings.

Unfortunately the church has made her out to be what she is not - it has hurt people and led them along a path which was entirely unecessary to walk.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/02/rap-session-tom-norris.html

Gordon — Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:59:00 -0000

Hi n'drea,

I was a Seventh-day Adventist for 32 years. In many ways I wish I still was. I enjoyed the celebration of the sabbath immensely. Quite candidly I must say I found it a necessary respite from an extremely demanding profession. I certanly was not 'into' the Sabbath with all its doctrinal accretions. I never gave much thought to the investigative judgement - once again I was simply not interested in what I would call 'that kind of nonsense'. But then again, tell me what denomination does not have some or other nonsense?

What I am very grateful for is the remarkable emphasis the SDA church places on healthful living, the opportunity for interesting debate in Sabbath school, the remarkable missionary work of the church, and it's equally remarkable education program. This all had a major influence on my life. Books published by the SDA church are in many ways the best available as far as I am concerned.

One other aspect which I much appreciated is the Sabbath School Lesson - I taught for all 32 years and always encouraged debate and an open mind. There is no other church which has such a wonderful sabbath school program.

Is it the truth more than any other church? I would hardly think so! My guess is that Tom Norris is as bound up in the 'truth' hype as much as some others may be, I find it a not very reasoned posting quite frankly.

My advice would be 'stick with it and be there to add another voice to changes whcih need to be made, without destroying the church itself. In my travels in the UK, USA, Africa and elsewhere I have found a remarkable admiration by non-SDA's (Christian and others) for the SDA church.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/02/score-one-for-state-of-dead.html

Gordon — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 06:30:00 -0000

NT Wright is a remarkable man. I am still reading his 'Jesus and the Victory of God', where he examines the whole question of the historical Jesus and what His purposes were.

He is bright, can turn a great phrase and hsa a lively mind. He is said to be the most formidable Jesus scholar alive today, and it was he who coined the phrase 'The Third Quest'. Somewhere or other, in the back of my mind, I think I remember he has some rather unusual things to say about Paul as well. However, I still need to get there . . .

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/01/who-picked-these-delegates.html

Gordon — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:37:00 -0000

Once again I ask whether the type of percentages/figures quoted are anywhere near approximating what may generally be considered similar for the majority of Christian churches in the USA. Is Adventism unique it it's struggle to gain/retain members or is it symptomatic of all churches?

Here in the UK we hear of so-called mega-churches in the USA, which really seem to be little more than denominations on their own - members seem to flock to certain mega churches due to the personality of the leader rather than any of the overarching beliefs. . .

My guess is that with Seventh-day Adventism one feels comfortable whether you are worshiping in Hanoi, Geneva, Harare or Iceland - you all read the same Sabbath School lesson each week, which seems to have a unique place in the SDA church.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/12/follow-up-letter-to-former-adventist.html

Gordon — Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:50:00 -0000

Thanks for your questions Andre.

May I just say that I find the 'great controversy' worldview highly implausible. To my understanding I find it would be a strange but unlikely God, (and we cannot 'prove' it either way) who would have knowlingly created humanity to endure the suffering which he/she has had to pass through in Gengis Khan's military rampages, Peter the Great's horrors, the Napoleonic wars, the two great world wars, Hitler's Holocaust, Stalin's gulag, Mao's China, Pol Pot's hell, Rwanda's genocide, Darfur, Palestinian suffering, - need I go on and on?
Would you wish a son or daughter to be born if you knew they were destined for Auschwitz? I am certain your answer would be a resounding NO! I gather that God too, if he is a God of intense love would want such a thing to come to pass.

Not even the Hebrew God has an answer to the question of pain and suffering - which is ultimately behind the great question of good and evil. He simply tells the 'three wise men' of Job to hold their tongue, and that particular God then goes on to display his great power.

Please understand I am not blaming God, I simply do not accept the philosophical view expressed by the author of Job, or Genesis chapter 1, for that matter - or that of EGW, which is after all not her original idea anyway. Is it not rqther simplistic to expect God to draw us into his own particular argument with someone called by the name of Satan? The problem would be His, not ours.

In answer to your question as to what kind of world view I accept, I suppose I might call Albert Einstein to my assistance - was it not he who felt that God does not play dice with the universe - neither would God do so with man. And that is the huge metaphysical dilemma which Job, Kant, Hegel, Hindu, Jain, Buddhist and many others have struggled with. At the same time history records that Einstein never believed in an interventionist God. It is all a wonderful mystery, and we simply have to leave all in the hand of God.

The high calling to spirituality found in both the Old and the New Testament is worldview enough. there we are constrained to live a good life before God - come good or bad. And perhaps the Islamic 'Inshallah' expresses it so well, where together with the psalmist - we bow before the divine will.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/12/follow-up-letter-to-former-adventist.html

Gordon — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:44:00 -0000

Dutch, I think many do remember their Adventist roots and often think of them. I was a member for thirty-two years and the influence of Adventism has remained with me since I left fifteen years ago. I am sure that is the same for many others.

What do I most remember of Seventh-day Adventism? The sabbath day, the health message, the over-arching meta-narrative of the 'great controversy' (which I no longer accept), the great vision which Adventists have of Jesus. The wonderful educational and medical work, and all the many people whom I knew in that regard.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/12/follow-up-letter-to-former-adventist.html

Gordon — Sat, 15 Dec 2007 09:37:00 -0000

Hi Becky Jo,

Your comments are well taken!

May I gently advise you that many employers have strict rules relating to employees revealing information relating to their places of employment. This may also be the case with your current employers.

There are numerous accounts on the web detailing how employees have been dismissed for discussing work related incidents. I would hate to see you facing problems regarding your above comments.

Regards, Gordon

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/12/follow-up-letter-to-former-adventist.html

Gordon — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:33:00 -0000

Kim, I am not an SDA (see my profile). I left in 1992 after thirty-two years of membership - numerous of those years spent in the mission field - and I never returned. Since that time I have occasionaly visited other Christian denominations, hence my comments regarding the commanility of all churches - including SDA's.

One does not have to be a churchgoer or church member to be a committed Christian. The words 'come unto me' have been sadly co-opted by the Christian church at large. There are few Christian churches which ultimately do not say 'if you want to follow Jesus, then follow this church'. Popes, cardinals, bishops, priests, pastors, including EG White, all claim to be intermediaries on behalf of Jesus - and how often they disgrace him. But more so, how arrogant they are to make such a claim. However, those words of Jesus speak directly directly to you and I - and not necessarily through the medium of a particular church.

I have also been surprised again and again by the diversity of God's children - they are found everywhere - within Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and also outside of all the various shades of men and women's belief. Paul and many others do of course grudgingly admit to that fact, however the triumphalism of their claims regarding who Jesus truly was overshadow His remarkable claims upon us. My Hindu guru often surprised me by his knowledge and love for Jesus, he truly believed He was the greatest avatar of all time and taught us so time and time again. He often told us that other great religious figures are mere shadows of the wonderful Jesus.

* * *

You and your husband seem to be doing a good work Kim - keep it up and may God bless you and guide you in your remarkable efforts to redeem men and women from the difficult situations in which they often find themselves. May the spirit of Jesus continue to speak to you today, just as surely as He has spoken to multitudes of men and women over the last two millenia.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/12/follow-up-letter-to-former-adventist.html

Gordon — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:44:00 -0000

Hi Kim,

Let me assure you, when it comes to admitting that there may be other ways to God there is really no difference between Adventist arrogance or that of the vast majority of other Christian denominations.

The great divide in most non-SDA evangelical churches is based on whether you are 'saved' or not (and often whether you are gay or heterosexual). Forget the idea that the majority of people who belong to various Christian churches do not have even the remotest idea of what 'saved' or 'born again' (metanoia) really means. In my sojourns amongst many evangelical churches I have always found that to be the great divide.

Arrogance is the cause for untold miseries amongst former Christains - which you will find littered all over the world wide web - it certainly does not apply to the SDA church only.

I had an interesting experience once. I happened to drop into an Alpha lunch one day, and was fascinated by an account related by a perplexed Christian lady. Her son had recently become a Muslim. Formerly on drugs, disrespectful to his parents and highly antisocial, he had recently experienced a conversion to Islam (which is really no different to Evangelicals when it comes to certitude). His life had completely changed. He became quite the opposite of what he was before.

How did fellow Christians explain what had happened to her son? The devil was using his usual weapons of deceit and subterfuge. 'You will know them (the Muslims) by their fruits', they replied. Forget the crusades, the persecution of Jews, the inquisition, and other atrocities which Christians have wrecked on other humans!

Hinduism - a remarkable religion - I myself studied under a Hindu guru for four years before finally becoming a Christian (he had told me on his deathbed that I would find God in Christianity, not Hinduism). I still recall how the great Gandhi had asked for the hymn 'When I survey the wondrous cross' to be sung after one of his long fasts in protest against the British occupation of India. How do we explain such wonderful humility within the heart of Gandhi? No doubt Christians would say once again that is the work of the devil in Gandhi's heart. . .

Might I just say that, true to what my Hindu guru once told me, I remain a Christian. To me Jesus is the 'best' way, however He is not the only way! And that is not said with arrogance, but rather that He was the greatest revelation of God who has ever walked the planet.

He is simply wonderful . . . quite the opposite to much of the Christian church.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/12/god-publishes-datebook-eden-located-in.html

Gordon — Mon, 10 Dec 2007 06:27:00 -0000

"by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace," - Ephesians 2:15

Without wishing to burden this forum with a largely irrelevant debate about law and grace, may I make just a few comments from the other side of the fence (I am no longer an SDA, neither do I keep the sabbath).

You could only be referring to one of the laws of the decalogue - the sabbath. And that regulation (or invitation) goes back to the Old Testament creation account. Interestingly, some of my non-SDA friends see much virtue in keeping the sabbath. If it were not for the exclusivity of the SDA church I believe many followers of Jesus would be happy to join with them in keeping their seventh-day sabbath, and would cherish the uniqueness of that special space which the day brings with it.

Today society needs a day of rest more than ever before. A community which is hell-bent on the aquisition of material wealth would benefit from a sabbath rest which allows one to switch off and reflect on some of the deeper meanings to life.

I think your interpretation of Ephesians 2:15 is not only a little outdated - it also defies logic. Beside that, the lawlessness which now pervades much of western society can well be defined by the other nine laws of the decalogue.

Is Edgar perhaps endeavouring to use Paul's viewpoint in opposition to Jesus' great sermon in Matthew 5-7. If so, I think Paul's discussion of the law in Romans takes care of what he is writing about in Ephesians (and which the writer of the Book of Hebrews is discussing), namely that the vast collection of ceremonial laws is now fulfilled in the person of Jesus.

Regarding Jesus and the sabbath, never forget his comments in Mark and elsewhere, where he speaks of the sabbath as made for man, not man for the sabbath. His comment on that day fits in neatly with his entire attitude toward the relationship of man with his God. Laws are ultimately made for man's benefit and convenience, not for a slavish obedience.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/12/god-publishes-datebook-eden-located-in.html

Gordon — Sun, 09 Dec 2007 16:07:00 -0000

I disagree. Andy’s remarks are highly relevant. Perhaps the cartoon is a little silly, nevertheless his central question is not.

Sabbath observance as a mark of the remnant church is pivotal to the raison d’etre of Sabbath keeping amongst the vast majority of Seventh-day Adventists. Such a remarkable claim based on traditional Adventist exegesis is tenuous and in my opinion is floating on an equally fragile view of scripture – on the meaning, the purpose, and the validity of the scriptural voice.

The remnant idea is fragmentally embedded in the Old Testament Jewish psyche, remerging especially in the intertestamental period at Qumran (in a rather nasty form, in my view), and may well be hinted at in certain aspects of the teachings of the Pharisees. It appears in all manner of ‘stripes and types’ throughout Christian history and could well be described as a type of crisis theology. Such fellow travelers do not of course make of no consequence such a ‘remnant’ viewpoint, nevertheless the history of the idea will reveal some alarming trends in the Christian church. So very different to Jesus’ view of both the law, the Sabbath, and his view of Jewish exclusivity.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/11/im-atheist.html

Gordon — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 16:13:00 -0000

There is an interesting play on words here. ‘I am a Christian’ and ‘I am an atheist’ – a Christian and an atheist wrapped up in one single package. Is Brian McLaren trying to steal one on Marcus Borg’s book title, where we are equally perplexed when we find that he has met Jesus again, but surprisingly for the first time!
It is possible McLaren’s headline is intended to shock us; drawing us into a conversation about many Gods with differing agendas (many of them bearing the name of Jesus himself). Adventismo Progresista uses the two nouns in his posting in just that way; allowing the words to hinge like appositional doors on a frame which is ultimately an entrance into the believing church. Charles and Kiersten hint at Brian McLaren’s emergent church being nothing other than a small part of the grand debate within Protestantism – which has raged for centuries and now displays it’s multifaceted image in over 20,000 protestant churches – all crying aloud that their existence is not only legitimate, but absolutely essential for declaring exactly who Jesus was and is at this particular moment in time (and that is quite aside from the additional 5,000 odd ethnic denominations found in South Africa).
Minus a few centuries from two millennia, we had the early church councils decide what it means to be a Christian – which finally included the defining of the New Testament canon, which had to fit neatly into the grand design of that great metanarative of God’s entering into history. That metanarative stretches far back to the great patriarch’s and even before that time - to creation itself. Almost two millennia down the road it is Albert Schweitzer who gathers together the various nineteenth century views about who Jesus was, and thus what it means (in his view) to be a Christian. In doing so he finally shattered the centuries old view of Jesus as the great God come down to dwell amongst us. So remarkable was his defining study that for fifty years any further scholarly search for the real Jesus was extinguished – and that particular Jesus would of course be far different to the Jesus of tradition – essentially the Jesus found in the gospel of John and the Pauline writings (let’s not exclude the books of Hebrews and Revelation).
I am beginning to wonder whether the Concise Oxford Dictionary’s definition of who a Christian is should not be redefined – or perhaps our unconscious assent to what a Christian ‘means’. When that venerable book describes a Christian as ‘one who has received Christian baptism, or is a believer of Christianity’, it is surely referring to the three major affirmations of traditional Christian belief; the Christian believes in the virgin birth, the resurrection of Jesus into the heavenly realms and finally Jesus is indeed God himself.
So I am wondering whether the words ‘atheist’ (or agnostic, for that matter) and ‘Christian’ are opposites, or may they perhaps be mutual bedfellows. Is it not possible to be a follower of the greatest of all men while being unable to accept his divinity? Many have been prepared to die for the same principles which Jesus uniquely lived out like no other man has lived. I must admit that I become intensely annoyed when others, who wish to legitimize their own discipleship by supposedly speaking on behalf of the wonderful Jesus, lay down boundaries where intellectual honesty may well be excluded.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/11/pastor-doth-protest-too-much.html

Gordon — Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:35:00 -0000

Thanks for your comments Andre, I shall certainly order the latest book by Roger Morneau "Beware of Angels".

I have searched the net extensively to find out something about a murder which Morneau's reviewer's talk about but have failed to find anything.

does anyone else have any comments about Roger Morneau and his claims regarding the spirit world?

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/11/pastor-doth-protest-too-much.html

Gordon — Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:14:00 -0000

Without wishing to flog a horse to death, I think Richard Harty has highlighted an area which must be addressed by the Christian church at large. The internet is full of forums for hurting christians - let alone SDAs. People are certainly hurting out there as a consequence of a misconception of what Jesus is all about - and that would include a far too fundamentalist view of the Old Testament as well. We need to step back and confront the Biblical account of God's place in human history. A slavish response to 2 Timothy 3:16 will only lead us into trouble.

Rwanda is a blight on the Christian Church at large - the Adventist church included. It points to deeply embedded socio-cultural problems encountered in all parts of the world. Two areas where this is eminently so is Rwanda and certain parts of Eastern Europe. However Rwanda by no means wipes out the good that has been done in so many areas of the world. I was proud to have once been part of the Adventist church - it seems to be eminently well organised in terms of mission hospitals, schools, health clinics etc., and has certainly attracted highly dedicated educationists, doctors and others.

One challenge which Adventism now has to face is the consequence of the great emphasis it has always placed on education. No bad thing that! Nevertheless educated people are far less likely to swallow any old story - especially at a time when the great historical metanaratives are being challenged - especially the account of the 'Great Controversy' . . .

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/11/pastor-doth-protest-too-much.html

Gordon — Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:56:00 -0000

Andre I have some concerns about Roger Morneu's earlier books, however I am not familiar with the one which you mention.
I have some considerable experience with the pentecostal churches - I am sure you are aware of the claims which pentecostals/chairsmatics make concerning healing and other miraculous happenings - such as windows being blown out of churches and oil falling from the ceiling - all meant to convince us that the holy spirit is being poured out. The vast majority of healings and reports (I would say 99.9%) have no substantial backing or documentation whatsoever.
I wonder about Morneu's books. He makes some remarkable claims which I find highly questionable. I did write to one the editors of The Review and Herald Publishing Association a few years ago expressing my concerns regarding some of the incredulous claims/experiences made by Morneu. I asked for documentary evidence and he wrote back a very nice letter - the substance of which was that Morneu was a sincere fellow and that the R & H Publishing Assc had never doubted his honesty or called for any documentary or alternative substantiation. I found his comments worrying - especially coming from the R & H.
Do you have any substantial evidence such as access to affidavits etc regarding any of Morneu's experiences? I often find that when these occurances are investigated they do not bear up under scrutiny.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/11/pastor-doth-protest-too-much.html

Gordon — Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:04:00 -0000

Methinks Richard doth protest too much.

“I find that many people who have left Adventism are not likely to be lured back because we have learned from experience the life threatening nature of that way of thinking.
. . . I consider it to be a life draining belief system that requires a tremendous amount of energy to maintain the mental gymnastics and to stave off the shame. . .”

Although no longer an Adventist, I remain a Christian. I thank God for what he did in my life as a consequence of remarkable Seventh-day Adventist pastors. I constantly thank God for the opportunity I had of working in the mission field and witnessing the good work done in those many hospitals, schools and publishing houses - and of the great message about Jesus which was preached by faithful witnesses. I see nothing life threatening there.

The name Seventh-day Adventist stands high in Africa and many other parts of the world because of the self-sacrifice of so many deeply committed church members and employees. I shall never forget the professor of astronomy at the University of Natal in South Africa who welcomed me into his home one harvest-ingathering evening, many years ago. He could not say enough of how an Adventist doctor had saved his sight. He was talking about Doctor Staples, who could have earned a thousand times more outside of the church but rather chose to serve Jesus faithfully day after day in his clinics at Bethlehem (South Africa), and in Lesotho. I think of the many customs and immigration officers, and other government officials in Africa who always spoke so highly of the work of the SDA church as I passed through their countries.

Of course we need to move away from the silly nonsense about Harry Potter – expounded by SDA’s and Christians of all persuasions (too often we misunderstand 2 Timothy 3:16). And so it is with numerous other ‘ideas’ which we Christians sometimes harbour – we need to turn aside from hurtful opinions which are not conducive to a contemporary enlightened worldview. Together with Richard we certainly need to read more widely, and reflect more deeply about the good things which mankind has so graciously thrown our way as they have progressed down through the ages. Let’s not rid ourselves of the great champions of justice – Jeremiah and other great prophets of the Old Testament. Neither must we forget the lowly Galilean who struck out in an entirely new direction those many years ago. With such literary tools readily at hand we will better be able to sort the dross from the beautiful without necessarily discarding the great treasures which the Bible has to offer – and which are the flesh and blood of many a Christian’s belief.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/11/for-bible-tells-me-so.html

Gordon — Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:33:00 -0000

Charles, your previous comments speak for themselves. My whole point is that we cannot possibly use the words of those who wrote two thousand years ago, writing from their own cultural milieu.

Regarding God and freewill; I understand where you are coming from (I was an SDA myself for thirty-two years). Invoking the freewill argument as a reason for the suffering which mankind has passed through is evading the fundamental question of how God could allow the millions upon millions of innocent men, women and children to pass through the terrible horrors which history records.

God is the father of us all; would you, as a Jewish father-to-be, want your child to be born if he is to perish in Auschwitz? I am deeply acquainted with holocaust studies - the horrors of that terrible time are simply unimaginable. Read the literature - but please do not read one account alone - read until you sense that you have become saturated with the flesh and blood of humans who have suffered those many terrifying moments. Through your imaginative powers experience the terror, sense the absolute nausea and then think through the metaphysical implications. We all need to take the time within our own worship experience to visit the Gethsemane of mankind’s suffering.

One of the great tragedies of our age – where so many historical resources are available – is that many Christians who possess the ability to go beyond, have never taken the trouble to read and reflect on the account of mankind's suffering outside of their narrow Biblical and other ‘Christian’ reading. We so often console ourselves with ‘salvation language’, ignoring the ugly truths which history confronts us with.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/11/for-bible-tells-me-so.html

Gordon — Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:25:00 -0000

In my view it is dangerous to argue against homosexuality from the Biblical vantage point. There are many other views beside that of SDA’s regarding both creation and the wider issue of inspiration.

My view as a Christian is that we should look at homosexuality from the safer vantage point of our observation of this phenomenon in nature. It rarely occurs, and I personally would not consider it to be natural from a biological/functional viewpoint. In terms of furthering the species it simply does not work – but because it occurs in nature it does not necessarily make it wrong from a moral standpoint. This is not a ‘value’ or a moral judgment - it is simply an observation of a occurrence in nature.

As a Christian I need to wrestle with what I consider to be an unnatural approach to sexuality. I would like to draw God into this puzzling enigma which exists in nature and ask myself the question of why he ever allowed His creation to come to such a pass. I am not satisfied with the cat and mouse argument where a devil is conveniently brought into the equation in order to protect the reputation of God (who made the mouse? God; who made the cat who killed the mouse? God . . . or the devil?). I would want to go beyond that conclusion to the fundamental question of why God, who is all-knowing in the first place, should allow such a form of sexual orientation to exist, but I simply do not have the answer to that question. Philosophers have grappled with the problem for centuries and are no closer to an answer.

In my opinion the above observations would hardly merit excluding a gay from the Christian community, either by way of baptism into the body of Christ or going further – excluding the gay from wider responsibilities in the church. Simply because he or she may often be the consequence of something or other which has occurred within their genetic or ‘psychological’ makeup hardly warrants comparing them to drug addicts. Once again that is an exceedingly cruel comparison, which is built up on a Biblical premise which I find to be deeply flawed.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/11/for-bible-tells-me-so.html

Gordon — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:55:00 -0000

The problem is fundamentalism. Whether it is hanging gay youngsters in Iran (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-60...) or stoning them in ancient times, both these viewpoints arise from a culture seeped in male domination, where a woman is simply not worth the price tag of the male. If her virginity is called into question she is brought before a court (males only - Old Testament) and finally brought before her father’s house and stoned. If you are a slave owner, then treat your slave well (New and Old Testament) – however there is no talk of the abolishment of the cruel practice of slavery. Do we want to be informed by such a view? Better by far to separate the cultural dross from the core message of the Bible – which is certainly not about male domination, gay relationships or slavery.

Condemnation of homosexuality is not based on morality but on the need to maintain the longevity of the clan and to provide children to till the soil and fight on behalf of their tribe and their God. Christians need to separate themselves from fundamentalism and all which that twisted worldview requires of them.

I shall never forget my gay messianic Jewish friend (a prominent Christian leader) telling me that when he reached the age of puberty he never once felt aroused by the sight of a young girl. The debate about same sex partnerships is not yet over; we understand so little. As Christians we need to ask God to guide us so that we do not become informed in that debate by an ancient and deeply flawed theology of human nature.

I am quite certain that Jesus would have been happy to eat with gays just as much as with any other person. If gays were murderers, fraudsters, liars or thieves then of course He would have helped them to bring about a change in their lives. Whether he would place the additional burden of calling ‘gayness’ a sin is a question which neither the gospels or we ourselves are able to confirm.

Why do we need to equate a sympathetic understanding of gay relationships with an inability to condemn the sins which so hurt humanity? Life is not so ‘black and white’ as we would like to believe. There is much we do not understand – so let us not come to unkind conclusions about a group who often long for fellowship and participation in promoting the gospel, but who are excluded – not by God but by the cruelty we ourselves are guilty of.

Gay men and women have a great deal to contribute to mankind - God seems to have especially gifted them when it comes to compassion, understanding and deep sensitivity.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/11/masters-workshop-all-you-need-to-know.html

Gordon — Mon, 10 Dec 2007 05:30:00 -0000

Perhaps I am flogging a dead horse. Has Andy any comparative figures (see the first paragraphy of my comment above)

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/11/masters-workshop-all-you-need-to-know.html

Gordon — Thu, 08 Nov 2007 05:48:00 -0000

I wonder whether the figures are unique to the SDA church, or whether the statistics are coresspondingly equivalent to other christian denominations.

I have a gut feeling that it is not about the 28 fundamental beliefs, but about Christian belief generally, in the contmeporary world.

I know that in the UK materialsim, a strong media offensive against christian belief, the loss of the traditional weekend to families etc are some of the major causes which contribute to a breakdown in Christian belief.

At the same time there is a healthy growth in alternative spiritualities - which once again tells us something about where attitudes to the Christain meta-narrative are today.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2007/10/mark-driscoll-on-emergent-village.html

Gordon — Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:13:00 -0000

Who is this guy, to think that his views underline true loyalty to the biblical Jesus. The biblical view of Jesus is fraught with difficulties and are highly disparate, nevertheless ultimately Jesus comes out shining and incomparable. Men such as Marcus Borg have made a meaningful contribution as to what Jesus was all about - and although I may not agree with all that Marcus writes nevertheless I am exceedingly grateful for his contribution.

Driscoll subscribes to a tunnel vision view of scripture and is bankrupt of any originality.
Quite candidly anyone who desires to follow Jesus today needs a more penetrating insight as to what Jesus taught, and who He was. His warped view of the place of women in the church and the home speaks volumes about his scholarship. I want to know nothing of such a Driscolian Jesus.

In my opinion Driscoll needs to stop talking in a condescending manner about how ‘nice’ those ‘guys’ are whom he has met, and engage seriously in the current debate. He simply has nothing original to offer to the multifarious twentieth/twenty-first century emerging views about Jesus.

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2006/12/groupthink-of-former-sdas.html

Gordon — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:04:00 -0000

I have tried to read through the many comments which have been written. A few have caught my eye while a few have not meant much to me in my experiences of thirty-two years with the SDA church. I wonder if many others finally left the church for the same reasons as myself - or are they perhaps unique?

Do you remember the Ford controversy and the ‘White Lie' by Walter Ray? I was working for the church at that time in Cape Town, South Africa. I shall never forget how the writings of EGW figured so large in all those controversies. I well remember how the church went to great pains (telexes passed back and forth to my dear friend and colleague, the late Pastor Don Thomas, about the Glacier View meetings etc). Anyway those at the GC and elsewhere wrote a multitude of articles at that time on inspiration, the Bible and the writings of Ellen G White.

And that is what interested me most of all - the Bible and other literary sources regarding Jesus - including EGW. I gave up quickly on EGW simply because the literature about her bored me. I had read so many of her books and was sympathetic to some of her views but not others - however that did not cause me to tremble as a member of the church - and a church worker. I was soon deeply into Albert Schweitzer's ‘The Quest of the Historical Jesus' and so many other works which soon began to enlighten me on just how nebulous a cloud doctrinal certainty lies. I went through a period of deep soul-searching regarding ‘intellectual honesty' etc. And over the years Marcus Borg, Dominic Crossan, Meier, NT Wright and and many others have become my fellow travelers on the road to discovering who Jesus was, rather than whether the Sabbath was the correct day of worship or the Investigative Judgement was valid. Jesus was the one who fascinated me, and He still does.

I eventually managed a publishing house beyond the Limpopo River and was able to spend four fruitful years setting the house firmly on its feet, while at the same time studying further about the historical Jesus. Sadly my marriage broke up and I decided to leave the church rather than cause a scandal there in Africa.

I continue to enjoy reading about that which most disturbed me in the first place - Jesus seems to never leave us alone and the story of His remarkable life and teachings found in the gospels continually speak to me. The fourth gospel still mystifies me, however I see it as a reflection of the faith of many who have asked the same question as I and many others have asked - who is He?

I am a Christian because I seek to follow Him and to love Him for whom He was. And it is that which causes me to never forget the Seventh-day Adventist Church. There at Malamulo I met and conversed with the finest doctors one could ever want to meet. They were completely committed to the task to which Jesus had set them to. In my visits to the Division offices in Harare I continued to meet men and women either resident there in flying in from the GC, people who were committed to serving Him. I fellowshipped with so many ‘ordinary' men and women in the churches I attended over those thirty-two years and found many to be true Christian people, full of love and a desire to serve Him better.

And I met many who knew Him - quite contrary to what one of the above comments suggest. I miss the Sabbath rest as well as the many friends who I traveled with along the Adventist path.

Re: GIVEAWAY: Scrub In & Win!

Gordon — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:29:17 -0000

We love this show!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2009/05/giveaway-ladies-or-gentlemen.html

Gordon — Tue, 12 May 2009 13:25:00 -0000

sounds interesting

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2009/05/giveaway-disney-animation-collection.html

Gordon — Tue, 12 May 2009 13:33:00 -0000

My son really loves the "Merrily, Merrily" song on the Wind and the Willows"--love to get this for him!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2009/02/two-day-giveaway-w.html

Gordon — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:39:00 -0000

Fist time I actually found the phrase!
Looks like a great film!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2009/01/giveaway-oliver-and-company-20th.html

Gordon — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:03:00 -0000

My son loves this--and I really like the billy Joel song!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2009/01/giveaway-cheers-final-season.html

Gordon — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:40:00 -0000

The first 5 seasons are perfect, but this show stayed fun all the way through.

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/12/giveaway-dallas-complete-tenth-season.html

Gordon — Thu, 01 Jan 2009 08:15:00 -0000

Loved this show, but could only see it on regular TV. Love to see crisp versions of ol' JR!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/12/giveaway-ghost-town.html

Gordon — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 04:16:00 -0000

I loved Ricky in EXTRAS and the original OFFICE--and would love to see him in this!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/10/giveaway-scrubs-complete-seventh-season.html

Gordon — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:25:00 -0000

Great show with great music and cast!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/10/giveaway-tropic-thunder-2-disc-unrated.html

Gordon — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:28:00 -0000

Love to see this--Downey looks great!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/10/giveaway-sunset-boulevard-centennial.html

Gordon — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:33:00 -0000

Greatest opening and closing scenes in a movie--cynical and sharp!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/10/giveaway-roman-holiday-centennial.html

Gordon — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:48:00 -0000

Really funny and charming--great to see with your daughter!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/10/giveaway-sabrina-centennial-collection.html

Gordon — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:47:00 -0000

Classy film--much better than the remake!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/10/giveaway-kung-fu-panda.html

Gordon — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:49:00 -0000

My son and I loved this one--great looking and filled with action!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/10/giveaway-shrek-halls.html

Gordon — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:49:00 -0000

Good looking and superior to the last sequel!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/10/giveaway-futurama-benders-game.html

Gordon — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:31:00 -0000

Love this show--can't wait to see more Bender!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/10/giveaway-spin-city-first-season.html

Gordon — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:35:00 -0000

Great comic cast--and it was a solid show from the start!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/10/giveaway-spin-city-first-season.html

Gordon — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:40:00 -0000

Always liked this show--tho' the dumb chief politician is a bit tired these days!;)

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/09/giveaway-this-american-life-season-one.html

Gordon — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:42:00 -0000

great radio show--wonder what the show's like?

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/09/giveaway-sports-night-10th-anniversary.html

Gordon — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 03:58:00 -0000

Great show! Josh Charles is so underrated, and Felicity Huffman is kinda hot in this one. One of the best of the 90's.

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/09/giveaway-taxi-to-dark-side.html

Gordon — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:38:00 -0000

Such an important documentary--glad to see it as a prize!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/08/giveaway-supernatural-complete-third.html

Gordon — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:20:00 -0000

This show is pretty creepy--very underrated!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/08/giveaway-wire-fifth-season.html

Gordon — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 17:05:00 -0000

Like a great novel, THE WIRE is a series to savor!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/08/giveaway-entourage-fourth-season.html

Gordon — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 17:06:00 -0000

Love Johnny Drama--and he really shines this season!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/08/giveaway-heroes-season-2.html

Gordon — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 17:07:00 -0000

Great show--who knows which one can be trusted?

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/08/giveaway-masters-of-science-fiction.html

Gordon — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 17:08:00 -0000

Big SF fan--this looks good!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/08/giveaway-dexter-second-season.html

Gordon — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 01:51:00 -0000

Loved season 1, even as it was edited on CBS, but I don't have Showtime--so this would be a great way for us to finally see what happens next!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-shelley-duvalls-faerie-tale.html

Gordon — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 01:58:00 -0000

Hard to believe this is just coming out now. Cool show--hope we win!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-big-bang-theory-complete-first.html

Gordon — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:18:00 -0000

Funny show with good acting!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-legion-of-super-heroes-volume.html

Gordon — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:19:00 -0000

Always liked Brainiac 5 and Bouncing Boy!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-spaced-complete-series_30.html

Gordon — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:20:00 -0000

I've become a big Pegg fan--love to see where he came from!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-tim-burtons-nightmare-before.html

Gordon — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:41:00 -0000

Beautiful film and some clever music!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-untouchables-season-2-volume-2.html

Gordon — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:40:00 -0000

It's from before I was born--but I loved the SNL parody!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-everybody-hates-chris-third.html

Gordon — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:39:00 -0000

Everybody loves Rock now--so it'd be nice to catch up on his past!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-little-mermaid-ariels.html

Gordon — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:36:00 -0000

The original movie is one of the 3 best Disny ever made!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-smart-people.html

Gordon — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:35:00 -0000

Hayden Church is the most underrated actor in Hollywood!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-that-girl-season-four.html

Gordon — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:46:00 -0000

She's so cute, and the show was fun!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-terminator-sarah-connor.html

Gordon — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 02:51:00 -0000

Ms. Hedley is so good in a tough role--this show is very strong!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-caroline-in-city-first-season.html

Gordon — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:54:00 -0000

This show was pretty charming--tho not too much like any artist's life that I've ever seen!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-star-trek-season-two.html

Gordon — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:01:00 -0000

The remasted episodes are great! Looks fresher while still having the strong acting and ideas.

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/07/giveaway-birds-of-prey-complete-series.html

Gordon — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:46:00 -0000

Trust me --the comic is much better. But it's a decent show!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/06/giveaway-bank-job-2-disc-special.html

Gordon — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:01:00 -0000

The reviews were great, and Statham has magnetism!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/06/giveaway-bank-job-2-disc-special.html

Gordon — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 08:09:00 -0000

Great reviews on this one--gotta have it!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/06/giveaway-batman-gotham-knight.html

Gordon — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:59:00 -0000

Love the Batman--and this looks cool!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/06/giveaway-mad-men-season-one.html

Gordon — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:34:00 -0000

Great show--but my DVR deleted half the season because it was getting too full! Love to see where it end up!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/06/giveaway-teen-titans-fifth-season.html

Gordon — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:29:00 -0000

Changeling is so funny, and I love the Mad Mod episode!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/06/giveaway-batman-fifth-season.html

Gordon — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:38:00 -0000

gOTTA LOVE THE bAT! And this is a good season!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/06/giveaway-dc-super-heroes-filmation.html

Gordon — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:31:00 -0000

An actual Atom cartoon? Count me in!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/06/giveaway-smallville-complete-seventh.html

Gordon — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:18:00 -0000

This is one of the most underrrated shows on TV!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/06/giveaway-popeye-sailor-1938-1940-vol-2.html

Gordon — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:21:00 -0000

These are so wild! Great looking cartoons!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/05/giveaway-sophia-loren-4-film-collection.html

Gordon — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:16:00 -0000

What a beauty! And a pretty prise!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/05/giveaway-californication-season-one.html

Gordon — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:26:00 -0000

I don't subscribe to Showtime, but shows like this make me want to!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/05/giveaway-odd-couple-fourth-season.html

Gordon — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:23:00 -0000

Love the play--the movie and especially the series!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/05/giveaway-mannix-first-season.html

Gordon — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:22:00 -0000

Loved this when I was young--but I've never seen it again!

Re: http://www.weekinrewind.com/2008/05/giveaway-soap-complete-series.html

Gordon — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:24:00 -0000

Bert was so funny when the aliens kidnapped him!

Disqus - Latest Comments for Gordon

Re: How to Embed Images and Music on your Blog Easily

Re: Called by GOD to preach? - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Re: http://blog.thegreenasterisk.com/2007/04/mcfly-or-wheres-hover-board.html

Re: Britney Spears @ VMAS: So Many Levels of “Suck”

Re: Kahlen Rondot, my heart acheth

Re: The “Third Date” Rule

Re: Email from Fernando

Re: Misha Barton Is Dead

Re: OhGizmo! » Archive » Generation NEX Nintendo

Re: Brian McLaren: How Does Saddam’s Execution Make You Feel?

Re: Mitsuyoshi Toge: ‘How Could I Ever Forget That Flash’

Re: Six Found Guilty Of Trying to See Their Senator (by John Dear)

Re: Six Found Guilty Of Trying to See Their Senator (by John Dear)

Re: Pick-and-Choose Theology (by Daoud Kuttab)

Re: Six Found Guilty Of Trying to See Their Senator (by John Dear)

Re: The Global Church and America’s War (by Jim Wallis)

Re: Pick-and-Choose Theology (by Daoud Kuttab)

Re: Jena is America (by Lydia Bean)

Re: Jena is America (by Lydia Bean)

Re: More on Sydney Babes

Re: Dougie Follows Hazel in Attacking Infighting

Re: Dougie Follows Hazel in Attacking Infighting

Re: CONTEST: BOOM! Sampler Giveaway

Re: Another Compliment for Kennedy

Re: Britney lookalike

Re: More on Sydney Babes

Re: Raider Week just ain’t the same

Re: Green with Service Envy – The Live|Work and Streetcar Partnership.

Re: Question of the day

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/04/breaking-news-investigative-judgment.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/03/led-me-out.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/02/by-request-our-complete-poll-list.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/02/by-request-our-complete-poll-list.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/01/are-adventists-fundamentalists.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/01/adventist-way-rape-pillage-and-plunder.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/01/adventist-way-rape-pillage-and-plunder.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2009/01/adventist-way-rape-pillage-and-plunder.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/11/book-review-for-sake-of-gospel.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/11/book-review-for-sake-of-gospel.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/11/freed-jesus.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/09/foundations-for-ellen-whites-prophetic.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/09/remnant-only-adventists.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/09/book-review-desmond-ford-reformist.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/08/i-wish-they-were-emeralds.html

Re: How to Embed Images and Music on your Blog Easily

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/church-history-gets-little-help.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/women-defying-church.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/fifth-day.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/fifth-day.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/fifth-day.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/can-we-coexist.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/07/can-we-coexist.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/06/exercising-feminine-aspect.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/06/exercising-feminine-aspect.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/06/circumstantial-faith.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/06/circumstantial-faith.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/04/bible-homosexuality-and-christianity.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/04/not-bad-idea.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/04/white-estate-responds-to-tom-norris.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/what-really-matters.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/what-really-matters.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/exorcising-our-demons.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/exorcising-our-demons.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/exorcising-our-demons.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/exorcising-our-demons.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/exorcising-our-demons.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/03/reasons-for-which-seventh-day-adventist.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/02/ordination-of-women.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/02/rap-session-tom-norris.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/02/rap-session-tom-norris.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/02/rap-session-tom-norris.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/02/score-one-for-state-of-dead.html

Re: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/2008/01/who-picked-these-delegates.html

Re: Six Found Guilty Of Trying to See Their Senator
(by John Dear)

Re: Six Found Guilty Of Trying to See Their Senator
(by John Dear)

Re: Six Found Guilty Of Trying to See Their Senator
(by John Dear)