http://disqus.com/people/478e77455c7083d395f5f94c366279fb/enMon, 23 Mar 2009 17:56:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_631/#comment-5293597I always wonder what Augustine would say if he lived in a world where nuclear war was always just on the horizon. Would he think there was even such an alternative as a "just-war?" With today's military options, I cannot even begin to see how any war could ever be "just." Maybe I like imagination, but I don't see it. I suppose I'll use my imagination towards peace making instead.Michael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 07:58:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_631/#comment-5293598Maybe I "lack" imagination. WhoopsMichael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 07:58:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_032/#comment-5293502Recently, taking Derrida and trying to make him into a Christian has been all the rage (see James K. Smith "Taking Derrida et al to Church" and Carl Raschke's "The Next Reformation"). I'm not implying that Derrida is a hellion bent on destroying the Church proper, but to make "deconstruction" into a Christian thing is only possible if we really make "deconstruction" into something other than what it is in Continental Philosophy circles. In my opinion, what Mark is doing here is not really in line with a Derrida or Nietzsche. Having a healthy dose of skepticism and reexamining our understandings of doctrine and biblical interpretation is one thing. But making the claim that "religion is all about texts" and then deciding that "all we have are texts," which only point to more illusory texts, is another thing all together. "Deconstruction" is hopelessness with a French accent in my opinion. It has done some good for the Church, but let's not baptize it. A more hope-filled hermeneutic is more in line with the Jesus manifesto.Michael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 08:16:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/does_war_lead_to_peace/#comment-1309769I always wonder what Augustine would say if he lived in a world where nuclear war was always just on the horizon. Would he think there was even such an alternative as a "just-war?" With today's military options, I cannot even begin to see how any war could ever be "just." Maybe I like imagination, but I don't see it. I suppose I'll use my imagination towards peace making instead.Michael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 08:58:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_631/#comment-5293577I always wonder what Augustine would say if he lived in a world where nuclear war was always just on the horizon. Would he think there was even such an alternative as a "just-war?" With today's military options, I cannot even begin to see how any war could ever be "just." Maybe I like imagination, but I don't see it. I suppose I'll use my imagination towards peace making instead.Michael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 08:58:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/does_war_lead_to_peace/#comment-1309770Maybe I "lack" imagination. WhoopsMichael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 08:58:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_631/#comment-5293579Maybe I "lack" imagination. WhoopsMichael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 08:58:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/is_deconstruction_a_bad_word/#comment-1309638Recently, taking Derrida and trying to make him into a Christian has been all the rage (see James K. Smith "Taking Derrida et al to Church" and Carl Raschke's "The Next Reformation"). I'm not implying that Derrida is a hellion bent on destroying the Church proper, but to make "deconstruction" into a Christian thing is only possible if we really make "deconstruction" into something other than what it is in Continental Philosophy circles. In my opinion, what Mark is doing here is not really in line with a Derrida or Nietzsche. Having a healthy dose of skepticism and reexamining our understandings of doctrine and biblical interpretation is one thing. But making the claim that "religion is all about texts" and then deciding that "all we have are texts," which only point to more illusory texts, is another thing all together. "Deconstruction" is hopelessness with a French accent in my opinion. It has done some good for the Church, but let's not baptize it. A more hope-filled hermeneutic is more in line with the Jesus manifesto.Michael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 09:16:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_032/#comment-5293493Recently, taking Derrida and trying to make him into a Christian has been all the rage (see James K. Smith "Taking Derrida et al to Church" and Carl Raschke's "The Next Reformation"). I'm not implying that Derrida is a hellion bent on destroying the Church proper, but to make "deconstruction" into a Christian thing is only possible if we really make "deconstruction" into something other than what it is in Continental Philosophy circles. In my opinion, what Mark is doing here is not really in line with a Derrida or Nietzsche. Having a healthy dose of skepticism and reexamining our understandings of doctrine and biblical interpretation is one thing. But making the claim that "religion is all about texts" and then deciding that "all we have are texts," which only point to more illusory texts, is another thing all together. "Deconstruction" is hopelessness with a French accent in my opinion. It has done some good for the Church, but let's not baptize it. A more hope-filled hermeneutic is more in line with the Jesus manifesto.Michael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 09:16:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_631/#comment-5293602It's highly under-rated :)Michael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 11:31:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/does_war_lead_to_peace/#comment-1309767It's highly under-rated :)Michael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 12:31:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_631/#comment-5293573It's highly under-rated :)Michael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 12:31:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_631/#comment-5293607I really should be preparing for finals rather than constantly messaging Mark on facebook and adding my two cents here. But...<br></br><br>One more time...</br><br></br><br>I certainly appreciate any point drawing on Bonhoeffer's story. He is largely regarded the patron saint of "pacifism-lite." People are free to be pacifists, but only up to a point. That point is when pacifism would require standing by idly while watching thousands of innocent people be murdered (i.e. Nazism). This same "pacifism-lite" crowd would quote Bible verses reminding the Christian that it is as much of a sin to do nothing when in the position to do good, then it is to something evil. Much of what Renee says can be included in this same thought pattern (I'm not saying she is, but that some of her thoughts run parallel with it).</br><br></br><br>"How can there be peace when there is oppression?...To get to peace, I may have to go through violence...."</br><br></br><br>This is where we need to make a clear distinction between "liberal pacifism" (I hate the term), and "Christological pacifism." I am not a pacifist because I think it will bring peace. Jesus himself reminds us that he did not come so we can all hold hands and sing kumbaya. I am a pacifist because I see it as the closest option in imitating my Master, Jesus Christ. I do not think pacifism will "work." It is hardly pragmatic and flies in the face of efficiency. The oppressed, if Christian, are not to use violence. Using violence as a means to an end which is largely colonial itself would not bring peace, or justice. I'm not advocating that the oppressed stick out their necks (as some Anabaptists supposedly did), but living faithfully like Jesus as the oppressed in the midst of the oppressors is what will ultimately bring the Kingdom...but it sure won't be efficient in doing so. It never will look like the world's progress-addiction.</br>Michael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 13:31:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/does_war_lead_to_peace/#comment-1309778I really should be preparing for finals rather than constantly messaging Mark on facebook and adding my two cents here. But...<br><br>One more time...<br><br>I certainly appreciate any point drawing on Bonhoeffer's story. He is largely regarded the patron saint of "pacifism-lite." People are free to be pacifists, but only up to a point. That point is when pacifism would require standing by idly while watching thousands of innocent people be murdered (i.e. Nazism). This same "pacifism-lite" crowd would quote Bible verses reminding the Christian that it is as much of a sin to do nothing when in the position to do good, then it is to something evil. Much of what Renee says can be included in this same thought pattern (I'm not saying she is, but that some of her thoughts run parallel with it).<br><br>"How can there be peace when there is oppression?...To get to peace, I may have to go through violence...."<br><br>This is where we need to make a clear distinction between "liberal pacifism" (I hate the term), and "Christological pacifism." I am not a pacifist because I think it will bring peace. Jesus himself reminds us that he did not come so we can all hold hands and sing kumbaya. I am a pacifist because I see it as the closest option in imitating my Master, Jesus Christ. I do not think pacifism will "work." It is hardly pragmatic and flies in the face of efficiency. The oppressed, if Christian, are not to use violence. Using violence as a means to an end which is largely colonial itself would not bring peace, or justice. I'm not advocating that the oppressed stick out their necks (as some Anabaptists supposedly did), but living faithfully like Jesus as the oppressed in the midst of the oppressors is what will ultimately bring the Kingdom...but it sure won't be efficient in doing so. It never will look like the world's progress-addiction.Michael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 14:31:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_631/#comment-5293591I really should be preparing for finals rather than constantly messaging Mark on facebook and adding my two cents here. But...<br><br>One more time...<br><br>I certainly appreciate any point drawing on Bonhoeffer's story. He is largely regarded the patron saint of "pacifism-lite." People are free to be pacifists, but only up to a point. That point is when pacifism would require standing by idly while watching thousands of innocent people be murdered (i.e. Nazism). This same "pacifism-lite" crowd would quote Bible verses reminding the Christian that it is as much of a sin to do nothing when in the position to do good, then it is to something evil. Much of what Renee says can be included in this same thought pattern (I'm not saying she is, but that some of her thoughts run parallel with it).<br><br>"How can there be peace when there is oppression?...To get to peace, I may have to go through violence...."<br><br>This is where we need to make a clear distinction between "liberal pacifism" (I hate the term), and "Christological pacifism." I am not a pacifist because I think it will bring peace. Jesus himself reminds us that he did not come so we can all hold hands and sing kumbaya. I am a pacifist because I see it as the closest option in imitating my Master, Jesus Christ. I do not think pacifism will "work." It is hardly pragmatic and flies in the face of efficiency. The oppressed, if Christian, are not to use violence. Using violence as a means to an end which is largely colonial itself would not bring peace, or justice. I'm not advocating that the oppressed stick out their necks (as some Anabaptists supposedly did), but living faithfully like Jesus as the oppressed in the midst of the oppressors is what will ultimately bring the Kingdom...but it sure won't be efficient in doing so. It never will look like the world's progress-addiction.Michael ClineTue, 20 Nov 2007 14:31:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_757/#comment-5293703Yikes. I'm convicted. I hadn't looked much past Buy Nothing Day. Thanks for this...I stand amazed.Michael ClineSat, 24 Nov 2007 14:50:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/make_something_day/#comment-1309797Yikes. I'm convicted. I hadn't looked much past Buy Nothing Day. Thanks for this...I stand amazed.Michael ClineSat, 24 Nov 2007 15:50:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_757/#comment-5293691Yikes. I'm convicted. I hadn't looked much past Buy Nothing Day. Thanks for this...I stand amazed.Michael ClineSat, 24 Nov 2007 15:50:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_416/#comment-5294001Daniel,<br></br><br>Great read, thank you for your posts. I agree with much of your thoughts on Hell (before you even know what those thoughts are haha). The demonology that has been such a large part of mainstream Christian teaching is more from bad exegesis of the book of Revelation and Dante's writings (I think without realizing it). There is a decent chunk of inter-testamental literature that is much more established along the lines of angels, demons, etc...but even they do not point to a place called "Hell" as we have often painted it. I believe Hell exists, and is a real place in real time (what does that mean?), but not as we often teach it.</br><br></br><br>I am curious as to your comments about Paul's writings. Why are you so hesitant? I'm currently working on a project dealing with the rise of "Jesus-only" praxis resulting from poor hermeneutics and awareness of the historical church. Phrases like "it's not religion, it's a relationship" seem to get played into this stream of thought. Many of those espousing such ideas are also hesitant to move outside the four gospels. I was curious as to your explanation. Not saying you fit into these categories of course.</br>Michael ClineWed, 12 Dec 2007 10:07:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/scripture_the_kingdom_and_the_historical_8220church8221/#comment-1309998Daniel,<br><br>Great read, thank you for your posts. I agree with much of your thoughts on Hell (before you even know what those thoughts are haha). The demonology that has been such a large part of mainstream Christian teaching is more from bad exegesis of the book of Revelation and Dante's writings (I think without realizing it). There is a decent chunk of inter-testamental literature that is much more established along the lines of angels, demons, etc...but even they do not point to a place called "Hell" as we have often painted it. I believe Hell exists, and is a real place in real time (what does that mean?), but not as we often teach it.<br><br>I am curious as to your comments about Paul's writings. Why are you so hesitant? I'm currently working on a project dealing with the rise of "Jesus-only" praxis resulting from poor hermeneutics and awareness of the historical church. Phrases like "it's not religion, it's a relationship" seem to get played into this stream of thought. Many of those espousing such ideas are also hesitant to move outside the four gospels. I was curious as to your explanation. Not saying you fit into these categories of course.Michael ClineWed, 12 Dec 2007 11:07:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_416/#comment-5293995Daniel,<br><br>Great read, thank you for your posts. I agree with much of your thoughts on Hell (before you even know what those thoughts are haha). The demonology that has been such a large part of mainstream Christian teaching is more from bad exegesis of the book of Revelation and Dante's writings (I think without realizing it). There is a decent chunk of inter-testamental literature that is much more established along the lines of angels, demons, etc...but even they do not point to a place called "Hell" as we have often painted it. I believe Hell exists, and is a real place in real time (what does that mean?), but not as we often teach it.<br><br>I am curious as to your comments about Paul's writings. Why are you so hesitant? I'm currently working on a project dealing with the rise of "Jesus-only" praxis resulting from poor hermeneutics and awareness of the historical church. Phrases like "it's not religion, it's a relationship" seem to get played into this stream of thought. Many of those espousing such ideas are also hesitant to move outside the four gospels. I was curious as to your explanation. Not saying you fit into these categories of course.Michael ClineWed, 12 Dec 2007 11:07:33 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2538/#comment-5294122I think leaving the church is the easy way out. I too think a lot of what you are saying is right on, and I also agree with Jonas, that churches occupied with their real-estate more than discipleship is just plain offensive to God.<br></br><br>HOWEVER</br><br></br><br>Leaving isn't going to change anything. 100 years from now, there will be another group of people who are attempting to be "Jesus-followers" in a more radical way, outside the church walls, and guess what? The church will be marching on. So how we can we reform and renew the churches from the inside? How can we create remnants from within, not from without?</br><br></br><br>I think it is always the duty of a few to call our the church to be more pure and radical (i.e. prophets, monastics, etc...) but that is not the calling for everyone. Perhaps you, Jonas and Beyondwords, are part of the prophet crowd. But to say that a "genuine church has to be a band of Jesus-followers," and then pretend that everyone else doing church without the same passion or zeal, and are therefore not genuine, is misguided in my opinion. I've found tons of people within local churches (especially in my generation of twentysomethings) that are desperate for change and reformation, and they are STAYING and being agents of change within the body. That is where change will be sustained. Not on the fringes.</br>Michael ClineWed, 19 Dec 2007 09:57:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2538/#comment-5294123I think leaving the church is the easy way out. I too think a lot of what you are saying is right on, and I also agree with Jonas, that churches occupied with their real-estate more than discipleship is just plain offensive to God.<br></br><br>HOWEVER</br><br></br><br>Leaving isn't going to change anything. 100 years from now, there will be another group of people who are attempting to be "Jesus-followers" in a more radical way, outside the church walls, and guess what? The church will be marching on. So how we can we reform and renew the churches from the inside? How can we create remnants from within, not from without?</br><br></br><br>I think it is always the duty of a few to call our the church to be more pure and radical (i.e. prophets, monastics, etc...) but that is not the calling for everyone. Perhaps you, Jonas and Beyondwords, are part of the prophet crowd. But to say that a "genuine church has to be a band of Jesus-followers," and then pretend that everyone else doing church without the same passion or zeal, and are therefore not genuine, is misguided in my opinion. I've found tons of people within local churches (especially in my generation of twentysomethings) that are desperate for change and reformation, and they are STAYING and being agents of change within the body. That is where change will be sustained. Not on the fringes.</br>Michael ClineWed, 19 Dec 2007 09:57:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2538/#comment-5294124I think leaving the church is the easy way out. I too think a lot of what you are saying is right on, and I also agree with Jonas, that churches occupied with their real-estate more than discipleship is just plain offensive to God.<br></br><br>HOWEVER</br><br></br><br>Leaving isn't going to change anything. 100 years from now, there will be another group of people who are attempting to be "Jesus-followers" in a more radical way, outside the church walls, and guess what? The church will be marching on. So how we can we reform and renew the churches from the inside? How can we create remnants from within, not from without?</br><br></br><br>I think it is always the duty of a few to call our the church to be more pure and radical (i.e. prophets, monastics, etc...) but that is not the calling for everyone. Perhaps you, Jonas and Beyondwords, are part of the prophet crowd. But to say that a "genuine church has to be a band of Jesus-followers," and then pretend that everyone else doing church without the same passion or zeal, and are therefore not genuine, is misguided in my opinion. I've found tons of people within local churches (especially in my generation of twentysomethings) that are desperate for change and reformation, and they are STAYING and being agents of change within the body. That is where change will be sustained. Not on the fringes.</br>Michael ClineWed, 19 Dec 2007 09:57:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_429/#comment-5294106I'm surprised Zondervan doesn't fire back with "there have been so many recent dispute as to whether or not you really wrote any of these letters, Paul, that it is hard to conceived giving you any share of the profits. All our lawyers/researchers agree with the new scholarship, not the 1,5000 year traditional view."<br></br><br>The "falling out of Paul" is something I've been thinking a lot about. If we just go so hardcore into our "jesus-following" that we forget about Paul's interpretation of Jesus' life,death, and ressurection, and what that means for us--we might as well call Raushenbusch back up and have him direct every move we make. No trinity, no atonement, just Jesus and us, building the Kingdom day by day.</br><br></br><br>Uh oh.</br>Michael ClineWed, 19 Dec 2007 10:06:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/they8217ll_know_we_are_christians8230how/#comment-1310186I think leaving the church is the easy way out. I too think a lot of what you are saying is right on, and I also agree with Jonas, that churches occupied with their real-estate more than discipleship is just plain offensive to God.<br><br>HOWEVER<br><br>Leaving isn't going to change anything. 100 years from now, there will be another group of people who are attempting to be "Jesus-followers" in a more radical way, outside the church walls, and guess what? The church will be marching on. So how we can we reform and renew the churches from the inside? How can we create remnants from within, not from without?<br><br>I think it is always the duty of a few to call our the church to be more pure and radical (i.e. prophets, monastics, etc...) but that is not the calling for everyone. Perhaps you, Jonas and Beyondwords, are part of the prophet crowd. But to say that a "genuine church has to be a band of Jesus-followers," and then pretend that everyone else doing church without the same passion or zeal, and are therefore not genuine, is misguided in my opinion. I've found tons of people within local churches (especially in my generation of twentysomethings) that are desperate for change and reformation, and they are STAYING and being agents of change within the body. That is where change will be sustained. Not on the fringes.Michael ClineWed, 19 Dec 2007 10:57:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2538/#comment-5294118I think leaving the church is the easy way out. I too think a lot of what you are saying is right on, and I also agree with Jonas, that churches occupied with their real-estate more than discipleship is just plain offensive to God.<br><br>HOWEVER<br><br>Leaving isn't going to change anything. 100 years from now, there will be another group of people who are attempting to be "Jesus-followers" in a more radical way, outside the church walls, and guess what? The church will be marching on. So how we can we reform and renew the churches from the inside? How can we create remnants from within, not from without?<br><br>I think it is always the duty of a few to call our the church to be more pure and radical (i.e. prophets, monastics, etc...) but that is not the calling for everyone. Perhaps you, Jonas and Beyondwords, are part of the prophet crowd. But to say that a "genuine church has to be a band of Jesus-followers," and then pretend that everyone else doing church without the same passion or zeal, and are therefore not genuine, is misguided in my opinion. I've found tons of people within local churches (especially in my generation of twentysomethings) that are desperate for change and reformation, and they are STAYING and being agents of change within the body. That is where change will be sustained. Not on the fringes.Michael ClineWed, 19 Dec 2007 10:57:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/apostle_paul_sues_publishers_for_copyright_infringement/#comment-1310175I'm surprised Zondervan doesn't fire back with "there have been so many recent dispute as to whether or not you really wrote any of these letters, Paul, that it is hard to conceived giving you any share of the profits. All our lawyers/researchers agree with the new scholarship, not the 1,5000 year traditional view."<br><br>The "falling out of Paul" is something I've been thinking a lot about. If we just go so hardcore into our "jesus-following" that we forget about Paul's interpretation of Jesus' life,death, and ressurection, and what that means for us--we might as well call Raushenbusch back up and have him direct every move we make. No trinity, no atonement, just Jesus and us, building the Kingdom day by day.<br><br>Uh oh.Michael ClineWed, 19 Dec 2007 11:06:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_429/#comment-5294096I'm surprised Zondervan doesn't fire back with "there have been so many recent dispute as to whether or not you really wrote any of these letters, Paul, that it is hard to conceived giving you any share of the profits. All our lawyers/researchers agree with the new scholarship, not the 1,5000 year traditional view."<br><br>The "falling out of Paul" is something I've been thinking a lot about. If we just go so hardcore into our "jesus-following" that we forget about Paul's interpretation of Jesus' life,death, and ressurection, and what that means for us--we might as well call Raushenbusch back up and have him direct every move we make. No trinity, no atonement, just Jesus and us, building the Kingdom day by day.<br><br>Uh oh.Michael ClineWed, 19 Dec 2007 11:06:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2538/#comment-5294131Once again, I hope you both realize how much I appreciate your voice in a time such as this, and I think the prophetic zeal that you bring to the table is just as needed as those who wish to stay on the "inside" and try to be agents of change (no matter how unsuccessful it can feel at times).<br></br><br>keep up the good work.</br>Michael ClineThu, 20 Dec 2007 06:55:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2538/#comment-5294132Once again, I hope you both realize how much I appreciate your voice in a time such as this, and I think the prophetic zeal that you bring to the table is just as needed as those who wish to stay on the "inside" and try to be agents of change (no matter how unsuccessful it can feel at times).<br></br><br>keep up the good work.</br>Michael ClineThu, 20 Dec 2007 06:55:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2538/#comment-5294133Once again, I hope you both realize how much I appreciate your voice in a time such as this, and I think the prophetic zeal that you bring to the table is just as needed as those who wish to stay on the "inside" and try to be agents of change (no matter how unsuccessful it can feel at times).<br></br><br>keep up the good work.</br>Michael ClineThu, 20 Dec 2007 06:55:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/they8217ll_know_we_are_christians8230how/#comment-1310181Once again, I hope you both realize how much I appreciate your voice in a time such as this, and I think the prophetic zeal that you bring to the table is just as needed as those who wish to stay on the "inside" and try to be agents of change (no matter how unsuccessful it can feel at times).<br><br>keep up the good work.Michael ClineThu, 20 Dec 2007 07:55:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2538/#comment-5294115Once again, I hope you both realize how much I appreciate your voice in a time such as this, and I think the prophetic zeal that you bring to the table is just as needed as those who wish to stay on the "inside" and try to be agents of change (no matter how unsuccessful it can feel at times).<br><br>keep up the good work.Michael ClineThu, 20 Dec 2007 07:55:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4437/#comment-5294683In Sunday School, I always learned to "forgive and forget."<br></br><br>In college, I became "educated" and was told that "forgiveness" and "forgetting" are not necessarily tied together. We shouldn't forget. We can't forget. But we can forgive.</br><br></br><br>In the psychologists office, I listened to a man ramble on about the connection between the two, ultimately leaving it up to me to be a mix of open and closed to my oppressors.</br><br></br><br>In the New Testament, I lose myself in the words of Jesus. My identity is formed by vast, yet somehow more simple, story.</br>Michael ClineMon, 07 Jan 2008 08:32:09 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_077/#comment-5294603Ok Mark, time to talk about voting.<br></br><br>Would Jesus vote?</br><br></br><br>Should we vote?</br><br></br><br>I'm particularly interested in the idea that a libertarian type candidate would be a possible good vote for the Christian community, in as much as he/she lets the "State be the state, and the Church be the Church."</br><br></br><br>Thoughts?</br>Michael ClineMon, 07 Jan 2008 08:37:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_lost_teaching_of_jesus/#comment-1310456In Sunday School, I always learned to "forgive and forget."<br><br>In college, I became "educated" and was told that "forgiveness" and "forgetting" are not necessarily tied together. We shouldn't forget. We can't forget. But we can forgive.<br><br>In the psychologists office, I listened to a man ramble on about the connection between the two, ultimately leaving it up to me to be a mix of open and closed to my oppressors.<br><br>In the New Testament, I lose myself in the words of Jesus. My identity is formed by vast, yet somehow more simple, story.Michael ClineMon, 07 Jan 2008 09:32:09 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4437/#comment-5294666In Sunday School, I always learned to "forgive and forget."<br><br>In college, I became "educated" and was told that "forgiveness" and "forgetting" are not necessarily tied together. We shouldn't forget. We can't forget. But we can forgive.<br><br>In the psychologists office, I listened to a man ramble on about the connection between the two, ultimately leaving it up to me to be a mix of open and closed to my oppressors.<br><br>In the New Testament, I lose myself in the words of Jesus. My identity is formed by vast, yet somehow more simple, story.Michael ClineMon, 07 Jan 2008 09:32:09 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/political_action_and_the_kingdom_of_god/#comment-1310401Ok Mark, time to talk about voting.<br><br>Would Jesus vote?<br><br>Should we vote?<br><br>I'm particularly interested in the idea that a libertarian type candidate would be a possible good vote for the Christian community, in as much as he/she lets the "State be the state, and the Church be the Church."<br><br>Thoughts?Michael ClineMon, 07 Jan 2008 09:37:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_077/#comment-5294591Ok Mark, time to talk about voting.<br><br>Would Jesus vote?<br><br>Should we vote?<br><br>I'm particularly interested in the idea that a libertarian type candidate would be a possible good vote for the Christian community, in as much as he/she lets the "State be the state, and the Church be the Church."<br><br>Thoughts?Michael ClineMon, 07 Jan 2008 09:37:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_335/#comment-5294871I too have been hesitant of the lingo, but have found myself nodding in agreement with the before mentioned authors and books. The problem is that the word "anarchy" has almost exclusively come to mean "fight the man..and usually with force" which would be antithetical to the Christian's proper cause. But when Boyd breaks it down, showing that the word more literally understood denotes the denying of a supreme authority (other than God of course), it makes a lot more sense to me. I'm not sure about the exegetical work there on Romans 13, I'll have to continue looking at the passage (for the 1 millionth time), but I still don't see an "anarchist" leaning there. I just see "let the government do its job...protect you...keep the peace (which is why we are also told to pray for the rulers)...but in the end, you do your Christian thing and let them do theirs."<br></br><br>I guess if that is Christian Anarchy in a nutshell, I'm on board. As long as we make clear distinctions between anarchy and Christian anarchy, because they are not the same thing. Just ask the french revolutionaries</br>Michael ClineSat, 12 Jan 2008 10:53:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/greg_boyd_christian_anarchist/#comment-1310588I too have been hesitant of the lingo, but have found myself nodding in agreement with the before mentioned authors and books. The problem is that the word "anarchy" has almost exclusively come to mean "fight the man..and usually with force" which would be antithetical to the Christian's proper cause. But when Boyd breaks it down, showing that the word more literally understood denotes the denying of a supreme authority (other than God of course), it makes a lot more sense to me. I'm not sure about the exegetical work there on Romans 13, I'll have to continue looking at the passage (for the 1 millionth time), but I still don't see an "anarchist" leaning there. I just see "let the government do its job...protect you...keep the peace (which is why we are also told to pray for the rulers)...but in the end, you do your Christian thing and let them do theirs."<br><br>I guess if that is Christian Anarchy in a nutshell, I'm on board. As long as we make clear distinctions between anarchy and Christian anarchy, because they are not the same thing. Just ask the french revolutionariesMichael ClineSat, 12 Jan 2008 11:53:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_335/#comment-5294863I too have been hesitant of the lingo, but have found myself nodding in agreement with the before mentioned authors and books. The problem is that the word "anarchy" has almost exclusively come to mean "fight the man..and usually with force" which would be antithetical to the Christian's proper cause. But when Boyd breaks it down, showing that the word more literally understood denotes the denying of a supreme authority (other than God of course), it makes a lot more sense to me. I'm not sure about the exegetical work there on Romans 13, I'll have to continue looking at the passage (for the 1 millionth time), but I still don't see an "anarchist" leaning there. I just see "let the government do its job...protect you...keep the peace (which is why we are also told to pray for the rulers)...but in the end, you do your Christian thing and let them do theirs."<br><br>I guess if that is Christian Anarchy in a nutshell, I'm on board. As long as we make clear distinctions between anarchy and Christian anarchy, because they are not the same thing. Just ask the french revolutionariesMichael ClineSat, 12 Jan 2008 11:53:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9234/#comment-5294885Absolutely, but i think "captain" might be a bit of a stretc of terms for Jesus' campaign rhetoric.Michael ClineMon, 14 Jan 2008 17:19:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9234/#comment-5294886*stretch*Michael ClineMon, 14 Jan 2008 17:19:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0399/#comment-5294891This is very helpful. Good summary MarkMichael ClineMon, 14 Jan 2008 17:23:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/peculiar_presidential_candidate_gets_an_early_start/#comment-1310616Absolutely, but i think "captain" might be a bit of a stretc of terms for Jesus' campaign rhetoric.Michael ClineMon, 14 Jan 2008 18:19:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9234/#comment-5294882Absolutely, but i think "captain" might be a bit of a stretc of terms for Jesus' campaign rhetoric.Michael ClineMon, 14 Jan 2008 18:19:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/peculiar_presidential_candidate_gets_an_early_start/#comment-1310617*stretch*Michael ClineMon, 14 Jan 2008 18:19:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9234/#comment-5294883*stretch*Michael ClineMon, 14 Jan 2008 18:19:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/four_types_of_emerging_churches/#comment-1310618This is very helpful. Good summary MarkMichael ClineMon, 14 Jan 2008 18:23:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0399/#comment-5294888This is very helpful. Good summary MarkMichael ClineMon, 14 Jan 2008 18:23:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9709/#comment-5294915I see so much of this changing with the my generation (I'm 24) compared to the Boomer's (our parents). My wife and I are fiscally responsible and we "store" I suppose to a degree in a savings account, but we live simply so we don't have to worry and ask questions like "have we saved enough?" Money doesn't run our lives. We refuse to make decisions based on an accountant ledger's reading. I think saving up for the future or being financially stable is a good thing, but the definition of what is "stable" and what is "hording" is radically shifting, and I think that is a great thing. Stable does not mean a full IRA account, life insurance on my beautiful right leg, and a growing stock portfolio. When we save and live simply, we can give more, which makes us much more spiritually stable.Michael ClineWed, 16 Jan 2008 14:11:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_lost_teachings_of_jesus_2/#comment-1310654I see so much of this changing with the my generation (I'm 24) compared to the Boomer's (our parents). My wife and I are fiscally responsible and we "store" I suppose to a degree in a savings account, but we live simply so we don't have to worry and ask questions like "have we saved enough?" Money doesn't run our lives. We refuse to make decisions based on an accountant ledger's reading. I think saving up for the future or being financially stable is a good thing, but the definition of what is "stable" and what is "hording" is radically shifting, and I think that is a great thing. Stable does not mean a full IRA account, life insurance on my beautiful right leg, and a growing stock portfolio. When we save and live simply, we can give more, which makes us much more spiritually stable.Michael ClineWed, 16 Jan 2008 15:11:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9709/#comment-5294908I see so much of this changing with the my generation (I'm 24) compared to the Boomer's (our parents). My wife and I are fiscally responsible and we "store" I suppose to a degree in a savings account, but we live simply so we don't have to worry and ask questions like "have we saved enough?" Money doesn't run our lives. We refuse to make decisions based on an accountant ledger's reading. I think saving up for the future or being financially stable is a good thing, but the definition of what is "stable" and what is "hording" is radically shifting, and I think that is a great thing. Stable does not mean a full IRA account, life insurance on my beautiful right leg, and a growing stock portfolio. When we save and live simply, we can give more, which makes us much more spiritually stable.Michael ClineWed, 16 Jan 2008 15:11:48 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9709/#comment-5294920I don't think saving for the future just for the sake of sleeping better at night or for the ability to buy that "next great thing" on the market is a legit Christian act--however--I do think that saving in order to give more to others and to be able to live with a more "open hand" is a kingdom-like attitude. Certainly you can argue that should be able to live this attitude despite your lack of financial savings, and that critique is well-noted. But on top of all of this is the crushing weight of what financial debt can do to a person in today's world. The more I save, the more likely I am to pay off my debt at a faster rate, the more likely I am to live with a spring in my step and my head up looking face to face with others. There are personal and social consequences to saving or not saving in the Kingdom of God. <br></br><br>I suppose I've been a little too influenced (possible?) by John Wesley here. "Earn all you can, save all you can, and give all you can...No more sloth.... No more waste.... No more covetousness!" (from "The Use of Money" sermon)</br>Michael ClineThu, 17 Jan 2008 07:37:23 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_lost_teachings_of_jesus_2/#comment-1310655I don't think saving for the future just for the sake of sleeping better at night or for the ability to buy that "next great thing" on the market is a legit Christian act--however--I do think that saving in order to give more to others and to be able to live with a more "open hand" is a kingdom-like attitude. Certainly you can argue that should be able to live this attitude despite your lack of financial savings, and that critique is well-noted. But on top of all of this is the crushing weight of what financial debt can do to a person in today's world. The more I save, the more likely I am to pay off my debt at a faster rate, the more likely I am to live with a spring in my step and my head up looking face to face with others. There are personal and social consequences to saving or not saving in the Kingdom of God. <br><br>I suppose I've been a little too influenced (possible?) by John Wesley here. "Earn all you can, save all you can, and give all you can...No more sloth.... No more waste.... No more covetousness!" (from "The Use of Money" sermon)Michael ClineThu, 17 Jan 2008 08:37:23 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9709/#comment-5294909I don't think saving for the future just for the sake of sleeping better at night or for the ability to buy that "next great thing" on the market is a legit Christian act--however--I do think that saving in order to give more to others and to be able to live with a more "open hand" is a kingdom-like attitude. Certainly you can argue that should be able to live this attitude despite your lack of financial savings, and that critique is well-noted. But on top of all of this is the crushing weight of what financial debt can do to a person in today's world. The more I save, the more likely I am to pay off my debt at a faster rate, the more likely I am to live with a spring in my step and my head up looking face to face with others. There are personal and social consequences to saving or not saving in the Kingdom of God.<br><br>I suppose I've been a little too influenced (possible?) by John Wesley here. "Earn all you can, save all you can, and give all you can...No more sloth.... No more waste.... No more covetousness!" (from "The Use of Money" sermon)Michael ClineThu, 17 Jan 2008 08:37:23 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_046/#comment-5295037I'll link to you after you stop being so Catholic.Michael ClineThu, 17 Jan 2008 15:36:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_568/#comment-5294968In a way, I think Babel could be on this list.Michael ClineThu, 17 Jan 2008 15:46:13 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_568/#comment-5294969In a way, I think Babel could be on this list.Michael ClineThu, 17 Jan 2008 15:46:13 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/add_jesus_manifesto_to_your_blogroll/#comment-1310730I'll link to you after you stop being so Catholic.Michael ClineThu, 17 Jan 2008 16:36:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_046/#comment-5295031I'll link to you after you stop being so Catholic.Michael ClineThu, 17 Jan 2008 16:36:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/7_flicks_that_subvert/#comment-1310709In a way, I think Babel could be on this list.Michael ClineThu, 17 Jan 2008 16:46:13 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_568/#comment-5294959In a way, I think Babel could be on this list.Michael ClineThu, 17 Jan 2008 16:46:13 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_568/#comment-5294982Les Miserables (I know it's a musical, but it's a beautiful story of redemption and the struggle between violence and peace both personally and socially)Michael ClineFri, 18 Jan 2008 07:04:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_568/#comment-5294983Les Miserables (I know it's a musical, but it's a beautiful story of redemption and the struggle between violence and peace both personally and socially)Michael ClineFri, 18 Jan 2008 07:04:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_568/#comment-5294984Les Miserables (I know it's a musical, but it's a beautiful story of redemption and the struggle between violence and peace both personally and socially)Michael ClineFri, 18 Jan 2008 07:04:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/7_flicks_that_subvert/#comment-1310707Les Miserables (I know it's a musical, but it's a beautiful story of redemption and the struggle between violence and peace both personally and socially)Michael ClineFri, 18 Jan 2008 08:04:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_568/#comment-5294958Les Miserables (I know it's a musical, but it's a beautiful story of redemption and the struggle between violence and peace both personally and socially)Michael ClineFri, 18 Jan 2008 08:04:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9042/#comment-5295173More thought was put into this post than anything I think I've ever come up with on my own blog. Well said Matt!<br></br><br> Do you enjoy Mars Hill? I looked into that school awhile back but ended up going elsewhere for a variety of reasons.</br>Michael ClineFri, 18 Jan 2008 14:10:40 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_8987/#comment-5295127I'm going to go cuss on my blog. Maybe then I can get 32 responses in just a few days. Geesh!<br></br><br>I actually agree with the comment above about the use of imagination and satire. We can't go about claiming we are trying to be all subversive and stoke the fire of Christian imagination once again, while at the same time leaving little blanks for the imagination to ponder. I think this edited version does it a bit more tongue-in-cheek and stokes those fires in a more productive manner.</br><br></br><br>You had to know this reaction was coming Doug...I mean Mark</br>Michael ClineFri, 18 Jan 2008 14:19:23 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/liquid_modernity_scapegoating_and_the_cross/#comment-1310864More thought was put into this post than anything I think I've ever come up with on my own blog. Well said Matt!<br><br> Do you enjoy Mars Hill? I looked into that school awhile back but ended up going elsewhere for a variety of reasons.Michael ClineFri, 18 Jan 2008 15:10:40 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9042/#comment-5295166More thought was put into this post than anything I think I've ever come up with on my own blog. Well said Matt!<br><br> Do you enjoy Mars Hill? I looked into that school awhile back but ended up going elsewhere for a variety of reasons.Michael ClineFri, 18 Jan 2008 15:10:40 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/al_mohler_takes_stand_on_emergent_profanity/#comment-1310755I'm going to go cuss on my blog. Maybe then I can get 32 responses in just a few days. Geesh!<br><br>I actually agree with the comment above about the use of imagination and satire. We can't go about claiming we are trying to be all subversive and stoke the fire of Christian imagination once again, while at the same time leaving little blanks for the imagination to ponder. I think this edited version does it a bit more tongue-in-cheek and stokes those fires in a more productive manner.<br><br>You had to know this reaction was coming Doug...I mean MarkMichael ClineFri, 18 Jan 2008 15:19:23 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_8987/#comment-5295043I'm going to go cuss on my blog. Maybe then I can get 32 responses in just a few days. Geesh!<br><br>I actually agree with the comment above about the use of imagination and satire. We can't go about claiming we are trying to be all subversive and stoke the fire of Christian imagination once again, while at the same time leaving little blanks for the imagination to ponder. I think this edited version does it a bit more tongue-in-cheek and stokes those fires in a more productive manner.<br><br>You had to know this reaction was coming Doug...I mean MarkMichael ClineFri, 18 Jan 2008 15:19:23 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6793/#comment-5295221Anyone have a few of these things popping up in their mind? I was thinking not voting could bring a similar charge from good American citizens.Michael ClineSat, 19 Jan 2008 09:49:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christians_haters_of_humanity/#comment-1310884Anyone have a few of these things popping up in their mind? I was thinking not voting could bring a similar charge from good American citizens.Michael ClineSat, 19 Jan 2008 10:49:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6793/#comment-5295214Anyone have a few of these things popping up in their mind? I was thinking not voting could bring a similar charge from good American citizens.Michael ClineSat, 19 Jan 2008 10:49:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6793/#comment-5295224"What if I set up a Christian Peacemaker Teams table next to every Army table at Christian schools and seminaries"<br></br><br>I know a good place we could start. My favorite is when recruiters call me or approach me, especially on Christian campuses.</br><br></br><br>Good ideas mark. You've got me thinking</br>Michael ClineSat, 19 Jan 2008 18:16:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christians_haters_of_humanity/#comment-1310876"What if I set up a Christian Peacemaker Teams table next to every Army table at Christian schools and seminaries"<br><br>I know a good place we could start. My favorite is when recruiters call me or approach me, especially on Christian campuses.<br><br>Good ideas mark. You've got me thinkingMichael ClineSat, 19 Jan 2008 19:16:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6793/#comment-5295206"What if I set up a Christian Peacemaker Teams table next to every Army table at Christian schools and seminaries"<br><br>I know a good place we could start. My favorite is when recruiters call me or approach me, especially on Christian campuses.<br><br>Good ideas mark. You've got me thinkingMichael ClineSat, 19 Jan 2008 19:16:20 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6793/#comment-5295229I'd definitely be on board Mark. I started toying with the idea during my days at Indiana Wesleyan University, which recently started a ROTC chapter entitled "Roaring Lambs" chapter (after the popular Bob Briner book, which is a model book for the campus administration). <br></br><br>I'll look into when the military recruiters come around. Maybe I can make a few connections that will give us their yearly schedule. The dynamic between us, the recruiters, and those at the seminary that have whole heartedly bought into military chaplaincy (which I go back and forth on) would be a fun and productive escapade.</br>Michael ClineMon, 21 Jan 2008 18:45:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christians_haters_of_humanity/#comment-1310888I'd definitely be on board Mark. I started toying with the idea during my days at Indiana Wesleyan University, which recently started a ROTC chapter entitled "Roaring Lambs" chapter (after the popular Bob Briner book, which is a model book for the campus administration). <br><br>I'll look into when the military recruiters come around. Maybe I can make a few connections that will give us their yearly schedule. The dynamic between us, the recruiters, and those at the seminary that have whole heartedly bought into military chaplaincy (which I go back and forth on) would be a fun and productive escapade.Michael ClineMon, 21 Jan 2008 19:45:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6793/#comment-5295219I'd definitely be on board Mark. I started toying with the idea during my days at Indiana Wesleyan University, which recently started a ROTC chapter entitled "Roaring Lambs" chapter (after the popular Bob Briner book, which is a model book for the campus administration).<br><br>I'll look into when the military recruiters come around. Maybe I can make a few connections that will give us their yearly schedule. The dynamic between us, the recruiters, and those at the seminary that have whole heartedly bought into military chaplaincy (which I go back and forth on) would be a fun and productive escapade.Michael ClineMon, 21 Jan 2008 19:45:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_8057/#comment-5295604In my opinion, a balancing act between all the images of the atonement is the most profitable rather than just one view, such as this one which leans heavily on a "moral influence" type view (Abelard) . But certainly different times call for different responses, and so maybe I'm just behind the tide of need. <br></br><br> I'm wondering where the ol' "bait and switch" theory could come in to play with this post. You know, the ransom theory where Satan was "tricked" into swallowing the Divine hook, whereby he actually loses just when he thinks he's won. I believe it was first put out by Gregory of Nyssa (but then, I also think that Gregory of Nanzianzus hated it). It's quite imaginative, and although it has been poked fun at in many times, I think it holds to the subversive nature of the gospel and the Jesus Manifesto.</br><br></br><br>The Christus Victor image has gained significant praise in the last few years, and I must admit that my wesleyan-holiness background draws me to it. Of course, Greg Boyd has given this image a boost in the ratings in theological circles and churches.</br><br></br><br>I think it's important that we don't over react to the substitutionary atonement theories (i.e. Anselm and co.) Some of the more extreme examples focus too much on the "satisfaction" that God just had to get through punishing someone that borders on the line of cosmic child abuse--but not all substitutionary theories are this way. Athanasius was using this language as early as the mid 4th century. We need to just live in paradox and tension and hold MOST of these theories up for further discernment and application</br>Michael ClineWed, 23 Jan 2008 16:14:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5962/#comment-5295402(1) I think it's funny that my post was initially the firestarter on this whole conversation. I'm not sure what I said that was so inflammatory against the U.S. per se, but nonetheless, I'm glad this discussion happened. In many ways, this discussion only takes play in the realm of big name academics and a few Christian authors. That's not good enough if any of this is going to have traction.<br></br><br>(2) jazzact13 said that by Mark's definition, every country could be considered an "empire." Although Mark hasn't come out and said it himself, I think this sums up his own points nicely. Mark's hermeneutical lens requires him to read Revelation as always applying to the relationship between the Church and State. All "states" are empires to a degree in Mark's thinking. You can agree or disagree, but this is where he is coming from.</br><br></br><br>(3) I just want to agree with a lot of what Andrea U said above. Let's say "empire" is less-than-perfect rhetoric. Let's go with "nation state" or "country." And the end of the day, it's hard to see ideological connections between any government and the gospel. In fact, some would argue that any ideology is precisely non-Christian, because at its core, Christianity is deconstructive of ideologies (Ellul). So, pick whatever label we want to throw on there, but at the end of the day, the problem is still over competing allegiances--one of which is valid for the Christian, and one of which is valid only in as much as we allow it to be. I admit that the language of "empire" can be scary and far-fetched at times. I have come to the place where I think it is a comfortable symbol and image for our day and age, but if you do not, that is ok. Just ask some harder questions other than "is this an Empire" or not? Ask, to whom is my allegiance? Ask, is there ever times when my allegiance to a slaughtered lamb comes in direct conflict with what the state/nation/empire/country, et al is asking of me? If so, then we agree or more than is supposed in this long line of posts</br>Michael ClineWed, 23 Jan 2008 16:56:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5962/#comment-5295405We also need to be asking ourselves how the motives and principles of a country who is obsessed at being "the world's only superpower" (as half of Asia laughs out loud) can possibly line up with the story of Jesus. The amount of times we hear "we live in the greatest country in the world" might be a clue as to the administrations real goals. There has been a desperate clutching going on since 9-11 to maintain our "greatness," and we need to ask ourselves what motives lie behind this grasping? What initiatives and actions are taken to insure that we maintain our "superpowerness?" Are any of these in line with the Gospel?Michael ClineWed, 23 Jan 2008 17:02:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/saponification/#comment-1311204In my opinion, a balancing act between all the images of the atonement is the most profitable rather than just one view, such as this one which leans heavily on a "moral influence" type view (Abelard) . But certainly different times call for different responses, and so maybe I'm just behind the tide of need. <br><br> I'm wondering where the ol' "bait and switch" theory could come in to play with this post. You know, the ransom theory where Satan was "tricked" into swallowing the Divine hook, whereby he actually loses just when he thinks he's won. I believe it was first put out by Gregory of Nyssa (but then, I also think that Gregory of Nanzianzus hated it). It's quite imaginative, and although it has been poked fun at in many times, I think it holds to the subversive nature of the gospel and the Jesus Manifesto.<br><br>The Christus Victor image has gained significant praise in the last few years, and I must admit that my wesleyan-holiness background draws me to it. Of course, Greg Boyd has given this image a boost in the ratings in theological circles and churches.<br><br>I think it's important that we don't over react to the substitutionary atonement theories (i.e. Anselm and co.) Some of the more extreme examples focus too much on the "satisfaction" that God just had to get through punishing someone that borders on the line of cosmic child abuse--but not all substitutionary theories are this way. Athanasius was using this language as early as the mid 4th century. We need to just live in paradox and tension and hold MOST of these theories up for further discernment and applicationMichael ClineWed, 23 Jan 2008 17:14:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_8057/#comment-5295599In my opinion, a balancing act between all the images of the atonement is the most profitable rather than just one view, such as this one which leans heavily on a "moral influence" type view (Abelard) . But certainly different times call for different responses, and so maybe I'm just behind the tide of need.<br><br> I'm wondering where the ol' "bait and switch" theory could come in to play with this post. You know, the ransom theory where Satan was "tricked" into swallowing the Divine hook, whereby he actually loses just when he thinks he's won. I believe it was first put out by Gregory of Nyssa (but then, I also think that Gregory of Nanzianzus hated it). It's quite imaginative, and although it has been poked fun at in many times, I think it holds to the subversive nature of the gospel and the Jesus Manifesto.<br><br>The Christus Victor image has gained significant praise in the last few years, and I must admit that my wesleyan-holiness background draws me to it. Of course, Greg Boyd has given this image a boost in the ratings in theological circles and churches.<br><br>I think it's important that we don't over react to the substitutionary atonement theories (i.e. Anselm and co.) Some of the more extreme examples focus too much on the "satisfaction" that God just had to get through punishing someone that borders on the line of cosmic child abuse--but not all substitutionary theories are this way. Athanasius was using this language as early as the mid 4th century. We need to just live in paradox and tension and hold MOST of these theories up for further discernment and applicationMichael ClineWed, 23 Jan 2008 17:14:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/is_america_an_empire/#comment-1311146(1) I think it's funny that my post was initially the firestarter on this whole conversation. I'm not sure what I said that was so inflammatory against the U.S. per se, but nonetheless, I'm glad this discussion happened. In many ways, this discussion only takes play in the realm of big name academics and a few Christian authors. That's not good enough if any of this is going to have traction.<br><br>(2) jazzact13 said that by Mark's definition, every country could be considered an "empire." Although Mark hasn't come out and said it himself, I think this sums up his own points nicely. Mark's hermeneutical lens requires him to read Revelation as always applying to the relationship between the Church and State. All "states" are empires to a degree in Mark's thinking. You can agree or disagree, but this is where he is coming from.<br><br>(3) I just want to agree with a lot of what Andrea U said above. Let's say "empire" is less-than-perfect rhetoric. Let's go with "nation state" or "country." And the end of the day, it's hard to see ideological connections between any government and the gospel. In fact, some would argue that any ideology is precisely non-Christian, because at its core, Christianity is deconstructive of ideologies (Ellul). So, pick whatever label we want to throw on there, but at the end of the day, the problem is still over competing allegiances--one of which is valid for the Christian, and one of which is valid only in as much as we allow it to be. I admit that the language of "empire" can be scary and far-fetched at times. I have come to the place where I think it is a comfortable symbol and image for our day and age, but if you do not, that is ok. Just ask some harder questions other than "is this an Empire" or not? Ask, to whom is my allegiance? Ask, is there ever times when my allegiance to a slaughtered lamb comes in direct conflict with what the state/nation/empire/country, et al is asking of me? If so, then we agree or more than is supposed in this long line of postsMichael ClineWed, 23 Jan 2008 17:56:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5962/#comment-5295311(1) I think it's funny that my post was initially the firestarter on this whole conversation. I'm not sure what I said that was so inflammatory against the U.S. per se, but nonetheless, I'm glad this discussion happened. In many ways, this discussion only takes play in the realm of big name academics and a few Christian authors. That's not good enough if any of this is going to have traction.<br><br>(2) jazzact13 said that by Mark's definition, every country could be considered an "empire." Although Mark hasn't come out and said it himself, I think this sums up his own points nicely. Mark's hermeneutical lens requires him to read Revelation as always applying to the relationship between the Church and State. All "states" are empires to a degree in Mark's thinking. You can agree or disagree, but this is where he is coming from.<br><br>(3) I just want to agree with a lot of what Andrea U said above. Let's say "empire" is less-than-perfect rhetoric. Let's go with "nation state" or "country." And the end of the day, it's hard to see ideological connections between any government and the gospel. In fact, some would argue that any ideology is precisely non-Christian, because at its core, Christianity is deconstructive of ideologies (Ellul). So, pick whatever label we want to throw on there, but at the end of the day, the problem is still over competing allegiances--one of which is valid for the Christian, and one of which is valid only in as much as we allow it to be. I admit that the language of "empire" can be scary and far-fetched at times. I have come to the place where I think it is a comfortable symbol and image for our day and age, but if you do not, that is ok. Just ask some harder questions other than "is this an Empire" or not? Ask, to whom is my allegiance? Ask, is there ever times when my allegiance to a slaughtered lamb comes in direct conflict with what the state/nation/empire/country, et al is asking of me? If so, then we agree or more than is supposed in this long line of postsMichael ClineWed, 23 Jan 2008 17:56:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/is_america_an_empire/#comment-1311141We also need to be asking ourselves how the motives and principles of a country who is obsessed at being "the world's only superpower" (as half of Asia laughs out loud) can possibly line up with the story of Jesus. The amount of times we hear "we live in the greatest country in the world" might be a clue as to the administrations real goals. There has been a desperate clutching going on since 9-11 to maintain our "greatness," and we need to ask ourselves what motives lie behind this grasping? What initiatives and actions are taken to insure that we maintain our "superpowerness?" Are any of these in line with the Gospel?Michael ClineWed, 23 Jan 2008 18:02:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5962/#comment-5295306We also need to be asking ourselves how the motives and principles of a country who is obsessed at being "the world's only superpower" (as half of Asia laughs out loud) can possibly line up with the story of Jesus. The amount of times we hear "we live in the greatest country in the world" might be a clue as to the administrations real goals. There has been a desperate clutching going on since 9-11 to maintain our "greatness," and we need to ask ourselves what motives lie behind this grasping? What initiatives and actions are taken to insure that we maintain our "superpowerness?" Are any of these in line with the Gospel?Michael ClineWed, 23 Jan 2008 18:02:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_8057/#comment-5295610Jason, I've completely drawn a blank. What book did you need to respond about?<br></br><br>I was thinking about Irenaeus' recapitulation as well when I read this. Unfortunately, some of his follower's took the theory and ran with it into places that he himself might not have gone (for instance, didn't someone later teach that if this theory is true, Jesus actually must have left earth at the age of 79 or somewhere in there? Otherwise, how could he subsume the life processes of the elderly? In that model, if you were 80, watch out!)</br><br></br><br>Also, someone more qualified than me might want to speak about the Eastern Orthodox tendency to view the atonment more in healing frameworks rather than legal or sacrificial. Anyone know more about that?</br>Michael ClineThu, 24 Jan 2008 06:57:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5962/#comment-5295414I think you are missing the point. The problem is not commitments. The problem is the overarching "mythos" as (Jason Barr called it) that undergirds the nation-state, but for some reason, goes unquestioned on a daily basis in many Christian lives aroudn the world, but especially in the U.S. Of course Christianity supports commitment, but only as defined by the story of Christ, his Word, and the Church. <br></br><br>Allegiance and commitment are not the same thing. Let's stop with the wiggling already</br>Michael ClineThu, 24 Jan 2008 07:26:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5962/#comment-5295417and again...please define "conservative" for me. It's not really helping me at all at this point, because there is no working definition.Michael ClineThu, 24 Jan 2008 07:28:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/saponification/#comment-1311203Jason, I've completely drawn a blank. What book did you need to respond about?<br><br>I was thinking about Irenaeus' recapitulation as well when I read this. Unfortunately, some of his follower's took the theory and ran with it into places that he himself might not have gone (for instance, didn't someone later teach that if this theory is true, Jesus actually must have left earth at the age of 79 or somewhere in there? Otherwise, how could he subsume the life processes of the elderly? In that model, if you were 80, watch out!)<br><br>Also, someone more qualified than me might want to speak about the Eastern Orthodox tendency to view the atonment more in healing frameworks rather than legal or sacrificial. Anyone know more about that?Michael ClineThu, 24 Jan 2008 07:57:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_8057/#comment-5295598Jason, I've completely drawn a blank. What book did you need to respond about?<br><br>I was thinking about Irenaeus' recapitulation as well when I read this. Unfortunately, some of his follower's took the theory and ran with it into places that he himself might not have gone (for instance, didn't someone later teach that if this theory is true, Jesus actually must have left earth at the age of 79 or somewhere in there? Otherwise, how could he subsume the life processes of the elderly? In that model, if you were 80, watch out!)<br><br>Also, someone more qualified than me might want to speak about the Eastern Orthodox tendency to view the atonment more in healing frameworks rather than legal or sacrificial. Anyone know more about that?Michael ClineThu, 24 Jan 2008 07:57:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/is_america_an_empire/#comment-1311161I think you are missing the point. The problem is not commitments. The problem is the overarching "mythos" as (Jason Barr called it) that undergirds the nation-state, but for some reason, goes unquestioned on a daily basis in many Christian lives aroudn the world, but especially in the U.S. Of course Christianity supports commitment, but only as defined by the story of Christ, his Word, and the Church. <br><br>Allegiance and commitment are not the same thing. Let's stop with the wiggling alreadyMichael ClineThu, 24 Jan 2008 08:26:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5962/#comment-5295328I think you are missing the point. The problem is not commitments. The problem is the overarching "mythos" as (Jason Barr called it) that undergirds the nation-state, but for some reason, goes unquestioned on a daily basis in many Christian lives aroudn the world, but especially in the U.S. Of course Christianity supports commitment, but only as defined by the story of Christ, his Word, and the Church.<br><br>Allegiance and commitment are not the same thing. Let's stop with the wiggling alreadyMichael ClineThu, 24 Jan 2008 08:26:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/is_america_an_empire/#comment-1311162and again...please define "conservative" for me. It's not really helping me at all at this point, because there is no working definition.Michael ClineThu, 24 Jan 2008 08:28:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5962/#comment-5295329and again...please define "conservative" for me. It's not really helping me at all at this point, because there is no working definition.Michael ClineThu, 24 Jan 2008 08:28:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_8057/#comment-5295615That would be a sweet read Jason. I've read his blog a few times, I need to get some of his stuff.<br></br><br>Daniel,</br><br></br><br>I think you are on to something really significant about the incarnation and the atonement. When I throw other theologian's names and theories, I have to admit that I don't fully understand them. I just read a lot. :) The name dropping is perhaps a bit overdone and un-useful on my part. Thanks for the article. I would recommend reading some of Abelard's theory though, because I think a lot of what he came up with is what you are elaborating for the 21st century.</br>Michael ClineFri, 25 Jan 2008 09:06:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/saponification/#comment-1311193That would be a sweet read Jason. I've read his blog a few times, I need to get some of his stuff.<br><br>Daniel,<br><br>I think you are on to something really significant about the incarnation and the atonement. When I throw other theologian's names and theories, I have to admit that I don't fully understand them. I just read a lot. :) The name dropping is perhaps a bit overdone and un-useful on my part. Thanks for the article. I would recommend reading some of Abelard's theory though, because I think a lot of what he came up with is what you are elaborating for the 21st century.Michael ClineFri, 25 Jan 2008 10:06:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_8057/#comment-5295588That would be a sweet read Jason. I've read his blog a few times, I need to get some of his stuff.<br><br>Daniel,<br><br>I think you are on to something really significant about the incarnation and the atonement. When I throw other theologian's names and theories, I have to admit that I don't fully understand them. I just read a lot. :) The name dropping is perhaps a bit overdone and un-useful on my part. Thanks for the article. I would recommend reading some of Abelard's theory though, because I think a lot of what he came up with is what you are elaborating for the 21st century.Michael ClineFri, 25 Jan 2008 10:06:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5962/#comment-5295513Not a single mention of Haiti in this loop. Check out the history of U.S. relations in the poorest country on the western hemisphere (even after gaining independence over 100 years ago!) Not everything that has been done is a fault of "U.S relations" but we certainly haven't helped matters. It was after listening to the voices of the Haitian people in 2003 that I first woke up to the imperial nature of the U.S.Michael ClineMon, 28 Jan 2008 07:47:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_8634/#comment-5295649The video game is just too ridiculous to be taken seriously by anyone. Any of my friends on this blog every played it? I hear you run around with all types of heavenly weaponry and blast the life out of everyone that has been left behind that won't stand firm with you. SO full of graceMichael ClineMon, 28 Jan 2008 07:50:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/is_america_an_empire/#comment-1311183Not a single mention of Haiti in this loop. Check out the history of U.S. relations in the poorest country on the western hemisphere (even after gaining independence over 100 years ago!) Not everything that has been done is a fault of "U.S relations" but we certainly haven't helped matters. It was after listening to the voices of the Haitian people in 2003 that I first woke up to the imperial nature of the U.S.Michael ClineMon, 28 Jan 2008 08:47:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5962/#comment-5295352Not a single mention of Haiti in this loop. Check out the history of U.S. relations in the poorest country on the western hemisphere (even after gaining independence over 100 years ago!) Not everything that has been done is a fault of "U.S relations" but we certainly haven't helped matters. It was after listening to the voices of the Haitian people in 2003 that I first woke up to the imperial nature of the U.S.Michael ClineMon, 28 Jan 2008 08:47:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/breaking_news_rapture_may_have_already_happened/#comment-1311703The video game is just too ridiculous to be taken seriously by anyone. Any of my friends on this blog every played it? I hear you run around with all types of heavenly weaponry and blast the life out of everyone that has been left behind that won't stand firm with you. SO full of graceMichael ClineMon, 28 Jan 2008 08:50:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_8634/#comment-5295641The video game is just too ridiculous to be taken seriously by anyone. Any of my friends on this blog every played it? I hear you run around with all types of heavenly weaponry and blast the life out of everyone that has been left behind that won't stand firm with you. SO full of graceMichael ClineMon, 28 Jan 2008 08:50:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_3209/#comment-5295688I'd like to pose a question. Let's assume we are going to go with this "narrative" approach to truth, where there are several "stories" out there for each community (and individual perhaps). In this lens, the gospels present another representation, or story, of God revealed is Jesus the Messiah. Now, when applied to the other "stories," can we say that the story of Scripture, the story of Jesus (however you want to phrase it) encompasses all other stories? The story we find in the Bible somehow acts as an umbrella of all other expressions of truth found in the world's stories?<br></br><br>Basically, I'm asking the metanarrative question...does the "truth" found in scripture (and lived out in our lives incarnationally--good emphasis) act as a metanarrative for all our stories?</br>Michael ClineTue, 29 Jan 2008 09:08:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1649/#comment-5295676Great article Geoff! I recently met with a seminary student going into military chaplaincy. We talked a few long hours about the requirements automatically placed on you upon entering military service, and whether or not these were possible to be "gotten around" by the Christian chaplain. Quite surprisingly, we decided that there were several areas where the U.S. has given chaplains the freedom to act in truly Christian ways (freedom that would not be afford if the person was say, a front line Marine). HOWEVER, at the end of the discussion, it became quite apparent to the both of us that the in/out language of enemy vs. us could not be dissolved. It was an expectation even of the chaplains to participate in such group think. They could not bring themselves to "chaplaincy on behalf of the enemy" but for our troops. The empire requires absolute subjective (oxymoron?) commitment to the state, not to the other. And that is where I got off the trainMichael ClineTue, 29 Jan 2008 09:23:55 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/what_is_truth/#comment-1311838I'd like to pose a question. Let's assume we are going to go with this "narrative" approach to truth, where there are several "stories" out there for each community (and individual perhaps). In this lens, the gospels present another representation, or story, of God revealed is Jesus the Messiah. Now, when applied to the other "stories," can we say that the story of Scripture, the story of Jesus (however you want to phrase it) encompasses all other stories? The story we find in the Bible somehow acts as an umbrella of all other expressions of truth found in the world's stories?<br><br>Basically, I'm asking the metanarrative question...does the "truth" found in scripture (and lived out in our lives incarnationally--good emphasis) act as a metanarrative for all our stories?Michael ClineTue, 29 Jan 2008 10:08:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_3209/#comment-5295677I'd like to pose a question. Let's assume we are going to go with this "narrative" approach to truth, where there are several "stories" out there for each community (and individual perhaps). In this lens, the gospels present another representation, or story, of God revealed is Jesus the Messiah. Now, when applied to the other "stories," can we say that the story of Scripture, the story of Jesus (however you want to phrase it) encompasses all other stories? The story we find in the Bible somehow acts as an umbrella of all other expressions of truth found in the world's stories?<br><br>Basically, I'm asking the metanarrative question...does the "truth" found in scripture (and lived out in our lives incarnationally--good emphasis) act as a metanarrative for all our stories?Michael ClineTue, 29 Jan 2008 10:08:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/enemies_of_empire/#comment-1311709Great article Geoff! I recently met with a seminary student going into military chaplaincy. We talked a few long hours about the requirements automatically placed on you upon entering military service, and whether or not these were possible to be "gotten around" by the Christian chaplain. Quite surprisingly, we decided that there were several areas where the U.S. has given chaplains the freedom to act in truly Christian ways (freedom that would not be afford if the person was say, a front line Marine). HOWEVER, at the end of the discussion, it became quite apparent to the both of us that the in/out language of enemy vs. us could not be dissolved. It was an expectation even of the chaplains to participate in such group think. They could not bring themselves to "chaplaincy on behalf of the enemy" but for our troops. The empire requires absolute subjective (oxymoron?) commitment to the state, not to the other. And that is where I got off the trainMichael ClineTue, 29 Jan 2008 10:23:55 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1649/#comment-5295658Great article Geoff! I recently met with a seminary student going into military chaplaincy. We talked a few long hours about the requirements automatically placed on you upon entering military service, and whether or not these were possible to be "gotten around" by the Christian chaplain. Quite surprisingly, we decided that there were several areas where the U.S. has given chaplains the freedom to act in truly Christian ways (freedom that would not be afford if the person was say, a front line Marine). HOWEVER, at the end of the discussion, it became quite apparent to the both of us that the in/out language of enemy vs. us could not be dissolved. It was an expectation even of the chaplains to participate in such group think. They could not bring themselves to "chaplaincy on behalf of the enemy" but for our troops. The empire requires absolute subjective (oxymoron?) commitment to the state, not to the other. And that is where I got off the trainMichael ClineTue, 29 Jan 2008 10:23:55 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_897/#comment-5295783Perhaps the best satire of the year (all 3 or 4 of them so far)Michael ClineWed, 30 Jan 2008 14:38:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2497/#comment-5295817Could you elaborate on the Lutheranism as being a help to progressive thinking? I didn't know those two words went together?Michael ClineWed, 30 Jan 2008 14:42:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/new_monasticism_is_really_really_bad/#comment-1312034Perhaps the best satire of the year (all 3 or 4 of them so far)Michael ClineWed, 30 Jan 2008 15:38:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_897/#comment-5295769Perhaps the best satire of the year (all 3 or 4 of them so far)Michael ClineWed, 30 Jan 2008 15:38:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/it8217s_cold_as_hell/#comment-1312086Could you elaborate on the Lutheranism as being a help to progressive thinking? I didn't know those two words went together?Michael ClineWed, 30 Jan 2008 15:42:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2497/#comment-5295808Could you elaborate on the Lutheranism as being a help to progressive thinking? I didn't know those two words went together?Michael ClineWed, 30 Jan 2008 15:42:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0269/#comment-5295844It will be spread. This is amazingMichael ClineThu, 31 Jan 2008 07:22:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_3209/#comment-5295690No, you answered it quite well! I just think sometimes in our haste to run into the arms of postmodernity, we forget about this aspect. Postmodernity as defined by Francois Lyotard is the "incredulity towards metanarratives." Lately, someone (can't come up with the name) has argued that Christianity is a metnarrative, but it does not contain a meganarrative. Personally, I think this is a bit of fancy rhetoric that means hardly anything. <br></br><br>Good thoughts all</br>Michael ClineThu, 31 Jan 2008 07:33:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/caucus_voter8217s_guide_2008/#comment-1312119It will be spread. This is amazingMichael ClineThu, 31 Jan 2008 08:22:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0269/#comment-5295840It will be spread. This is amazingMichael ClineThu, 31 Jan 2008 08:22:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/what_is_truth/#comment-1311855No, you answered it quite well! I just think sometimes in our haste to run into the arms of postmodernity, we forget about this aspect. Postmodernity as defined by Francois Lyotard is the "incredulity towards metanarratives." Lately, someone (can't come up with the name) has argued that Christianity is a metnarrative, but it does not contain a meganarrative. Personally, I think this is a bit of fancy rhetoric that means hardly anything. <br><br>Good thoughts allMichael ClineThu, 31 Jan 2008 08:33:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_3209/#comment-5295683No, you answered it quite well! I just think sometimes in our haste to run into the arms of postmodernity, we forget about this aspect. Postmodernity as defined by Francois Lyotard is the "incredulity towards metanarratives." Lately, someone (can't come up with the name) has argued that Christianity is a metnarrative, but it does not contain a meganarrative. Personally, I think this is a bit of fancy rhetoric that means hardly anything.<br><br>Good thoughts allMichael ClineThu, 31 Jan 2008 08:33:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0269/#comment-5295857Nathan,<br></br><br>I can't speak for Mark (but here I go anyway) but I think "neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more" speaks to the issue, In the context, abortion would be the "sin" that Jesus clearly names, just like adultery was with the woman addressed within the original biblical story. Jesus doesn't let the adulterous woman off the hook, but commands her to live a life worthy of such salvation that she is encountering that very moment--the very presence of God has come to her rescue and fundamentally changed the way we approach sin and condemnation. So, Jesus is against sin, which in this context would be the taking of a child's life...but the antidote to the problem is not condemnation and the systematic rooting out of her misdeeds, but forgiveness and proclamation.</br>Michael ClineMon, 04 Feb 2008 15:29:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0269/#comment-5295858In fact, as written, the "stance" (if you want to even call it that) does not speak specifically "to the child." You are right on this, but the question is, does it need to? Instead, it focuses on the larger negatives of abortion. Pro-life should not just be on abortion, but if it speaks to that area, it must speak to the effects on the mother, father, social sphere, etc... I think Jesus' line does that better than a simple "pro life" stickerMichael ClineMon, 04 Feb 2008 15:32:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/caucus_voter8217s_guide_2008/#comment-1312116Nathan,<br><br>I can't speak for Mark (but here I go anyway) but I think "neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more" speaks to the issue, In the context, abortion would be the "sin" that Jesus clearly names, just like adultery was with the woman addressed within the original biblical story. Jesus doesn't let the adulterous woman off the hook, but commands her to live a life worthy of such salvation that she is encountering that very moment--the very presence of God has come to her rescue and fundamentally changed the way we approach sin and condemnation. So, Jesus is against sin, which in this context would be the taking of a child's life...but the antidote to the problem is not condemnation and the systematic rooting out of her misdeeds, but forgiveness and proclamation.Michael ClineMon, 04 Feb 2008 16:29:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0269/#comment-5295836Nathan,<br><br>I can't speak for Mark (but here I go anyway) but I think "neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more" speaks to the issue, In the context, abortion would be the "sin" that Jesus clearly names, just like adultery was with the woman addressed within the original biblical story. Jesus doesn't let the adulterous woman off the hook, but commands her to live a life worthy of such salvation that she is encountering that very moment--the very presence of God has come to her rescue and fundamentally changed the way we approach sin and condemnation. So, Jesus is against sin, which in this context would be the taking of a child's life...but the antidote to the problem is not condemnation and the systematic rooting out of her misdeeds, but forgiveness and proclamation.Michael ClineMon, 04 Feb 2008 16:29:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/caucus_voter8217s_guide_2008/#comment-1312115In fact, as written, the "stance" (if you want to even call it that) does not speak specifically "to the child." You are right on this, but the question is, does it need to? Instead, it focuses on the larger negatives of abortion. Pro-life should not just be on abortion, but if it speaks to that area, it must speak to the effects on the mother, father, social sphere, etc... I think Jesus' line does that better than a simple "pro life" stickerMichael ClineMon, 04 Feb 2008 16:32:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0269/#comment-5295835In fact, as written, the "stance" (if you want to even call it that) does not speak specifically "to the child." You are right on this, but the question is, does it need to? Instead, it focuses on the larger negatives of abortion. Pro-life should not just be on abortion, but if it speaks to that area, it must speak to the effects on the mother, father, social sphere, etc... I think Jesus' line does that better than a simple "pro life" stickerMichael ClineMon, 04 Feb 2008 16:32:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_20892/#comment-5296021Jordan, some of that is what I was hoping to pick up on, so I am glad you see it too. It's one of the hardest lines to walk, to be both open to newcomers, and yet to not water down the message so all can join in without genuine conversion. Usually, in our zeal to convert, we allow the message to slide into a more comfortable zone, for instance into the "religious left" because it has more appeal. We will deny in day and night, but the truth remains. Thanks for your insights!Michael ClineThu, 07 Feb 2008 07:18:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/anti_ideology_as_ideology/#comment-1312451Jordan, some of that is what I was hoping to pick up on, so I am glad you see it too. It's one of the hardest lines to walk, to be both open to newcomers, and yet to not water down the message so all can join in without genuine conversion. Usually, in our zeal to convert, we allow the message to slide into a more comfortable zone, for instance into the "religious left" because it has more appeal. We will deny in day and night, but the truth remains. Thanks for your insights!Michael ClineThu, 07 Feb 2008 08:18:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_20892/#comment-5296012Jordan, some of that is what I was hoping to pick up on, so I am glad you see it too. It's one of the hardest lines to walk, to be both open to newcomers, and yet to not water down the message so all can join in without genuine conversion. Usually, in our zeal to convert, we allow the message to slide into a more comfortable zone, for instance into the "religious left" because it has more appeal. We will deny in day and night, but the truth remains. Thanks for your insights!Michael ClineThu, 07 Feb 2008 08:18:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_20892/#comment-5296023Geoff,<br></br><br>When you mention the "hermeneutics of suspicion," is Zizek talking about the tradition from Nietzsche to Ricoeur? I haven't read Zizek and feel like I'm swimming in water way over my head. There were times in reading Ellul that I said to myself "is Ellul not crafting his own ideology here?" But in my opinion, if Ellul's thoughts (or anyone's for that matter) becomes an ideology, it is not by his own fault, but by what the masses do with it. True or untrue?</br>Michael ClineThu, 07 Feb 2008 08:51:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/anti_ideology_as_ideology/#comment-1312453Geoff,<br><br>When you mention the "hermeneutics of suspicion," is Zizek talking about the tradition from Nietzsche to Ricoeur? I haven't read Zizek and feel like I'm swimming in water way over my head. There were times in reading Ellul that I said to myself "is Ellul not crafting his own ideology here?" But in my opinion, if Ellul's thoughts (or anyone's for that matter) becomes an ideology, it is not by his own fault, but by what the masses do with it. True or untrue?Michael ClineThu, 07 Feb 2008 09:51:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_20892/#comment-5296014Geoff,<br><br>When you mention the "hermeneutics of suspicion," is Zizek talking about the tradition from Nietzsche to Ricoeur? I haven't read Zizek and feel like I'm swimming in water way over my head. There were times in reading Ellul that I said to myself "is Ellul not crafting his own ideology here?" But in my opinion, if Ellul's thoughts (or anyone's for that matter) becomes an ideology, it is not by his own fault, but by what the masses do with it. True or untrue?Michael ClineThu, 07 Feb 2008 09:51:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4181/#comment-5296066I was hoping that a bit of this sentiment would come out in my latest contribution, but perhaps it did the exact opposite. I think those of more intimately connected to Academia and "high shelf" learning must find a way to bring the ideas and truths that we are discovering down off the shelf for everyone to check out with us. In fact, this is one of the major needs the Church universal has--to bridge the gap of the Academy and the Congregation. I've dedicated my learning to such an aim, and sincerely apologize if I am one who has fallen short of this goal. <br></br><br>On the other hand, maybe I'm being a moron by assuming I'm one of those smart writers. :) In that case, delete this entry before I look like an idiot.</br>Michael ClineThu, 07 Feb 2008 16:39:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/making_room_for_the_non_academic/#comment-1312467I was hoping that a bit of this sentiment would come out in my latest contribution, but perhaps it did the exact opposite. I think those of more intimately connected to Academia and "high shelf" learning must find a way to bring the ideas and truths that we are discovering down off the shelf for everyone to check out with us. In fact, this is one of the major needs the Church universal has--to bridge the gap of the Academy and the Congregation. I've dedicated my learning to such an aim, and sincerely apologize if I am one who has fallen short of this goal. <br><br>On the other hand, maybe I'm being a moron by assuming I'm one of those smart writers. :) In that case, delete this entry before I look like an idiot.Michael ClineThu, 07 Feb 2008 17:39:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4181/#comment-5296040I was hoping that a bit of this sentiment would come out in my latest contribution, but perhaps it did the exact opposite. I think those of more intimately connected to Academia and "high shelf" learning must find a way to bring the ideas and truths that we are discovering down off the shelf for everyone to check out with us. In fact, this is one of the major needs the Church universal has--to bridge the gap of the Academy and the Congregation. I've dedicated my learning to such an aim, and sincerely apologize if I am one who has fallen short of this goal.<br><br>On the other hand, maybe I'm being a moron by assuming I'm one of those smart writers. :) In that case, delete this entry before I look like an idiot.Michael ClineThu, 07 Feb 2008 17:39:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4181/#comment-5296081I appreciate James' perspective, as I too have goals that eventually involve working in Academia. On the other hand, like James, I love the Church and see my work as a service for Her. This is one reason why I am involved in Jesus Manifesto, ChristArchy, pastoring in the local church, etc... all while going to school. It's a hard balance, but one that has to be maintained.<br></br><br>I know the solution to this scenario is hardly to read more, but at the risk of being scouffed at, I'll suggest a book (especially to James): Helmut Thelicke's "A Little Exercise For Young Theologians." The book pretty much changed my perspective on this very issue and gradually shifted the blame (in my eyes) away from the local congregations who I previously thought just wanted to remain in ignorance, and onto the Academy who nonchalantly practice "power over" others with their theological language and expertise. A lot of it agrees probably with what Mark is getting at in his latest post to this thread.</br>Michael ClineFri, 08 Feb 2008 15:22:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/making_room_for_the_non_academic/#comment-1312475I appreciate James' perspective, as I too have goals that eventually involve working in Academia. On the other hand, like James, I love the Church and see my work as a service for Her. This is one reason why I am involved in Jesus Manifesto, ChristArchy, pastoring in the local church, etc... all while going to school. It's a hard balance, but one that has to be maintained.<br><br>I know the solution to this scenario is hardly to read more, but at the risk of being scouffed at, I'll suggest a book (especially to James): Helmut Thelicke's "A Little Exercise For Young Theologians." The book pretty much changed my perspective on this very issue and gradually shifted the blame (in my eyes) away from the local congregations who I previously thought just wanted to remain in ignorance, and onto the Academy who nonchalantly practice "power over" others with their theological language and expertise. A lot of it agrees probably with what Mark is getting at in his latest post to this thread.Michael ClineFri, 08 Feb 2008 16:22:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4181/#comment-5296048I appreciate James' perspective, as I too have goals that eventually involve working in Academia. On the other hand, like James, I love the Church and see my work as a service for Her. This is one reason why I am involved in Jesus Manifesto, ChristArchy, pastoring in the local church, etc... all while going to school. It's a hard balance, but one that has to be maintained.<br><br>I know the solution to this scenario is hardly to read more, but at the risk of being scouffed at, I'll suggest a book (especially to James): Helmut Thelicke's "A Little Exercise For Young Theologians." The book pretty much changed my perspective on this very issue and gradually shifted the blame (in my eyes) away from the local congregations who I previously thought just wanted to remain in ignorance, and onto the Academy who nonchalantly practice "power over" others with their theological language and expertise. A lot of it agrees probably with what Mark is getting at in his latest post to this thread.Michael ClineFri, 08 Feb 2008 16:22:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7889/#comment-5296196There needs to be a place for baptism if we are going to talk about the identity of the early Church and local congregations. I just found out Cavanaugh teaches up here in Minnesota, (St. Thomas) so I am going to have to get on that. My problem with discussion of "early church" vs. today's expression is that it seems to limit the Holy Spirit's guidance to 200 years or so. the idea that the local church was a "complete church" to me seems a bit biased and hard to maintain post Nicaea. What about the "fragmentum" (piece of Eucharist bread) that was passed between churches as early as the 4th century in order to keep unity among the whole of churches? I'm not sure how we can view the Eucharist in one particular location as "completing" the church in any way.Michael ClineMon, 11 Feb 2008 07:31:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7889/#comment-5296197I also think leaning on baptism as mystical union with Christ's death and resurrection would also go along way in establishing personal identity within the universal Church. In my mind, this may be a more accessible route in circumventing national borders with allegiance to Christ's body first and foremost. I've read a few articles that take this road. Not sure by who, but Hauerwas is my guess.Michael ClineMon, 11 Feb 2008 07:34:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/new_monasticism_fringe_christianity/#comment-1312525There needs to be a place for baptism if we are going to talk about the identity of the early Church and local congregations. I just found out Cavanaugh teaches up here in Minnesota, (St. Thomas) so I am going to have to get on that. My problem with discussion of "early church" vs. today's expression is that it seems to limit the Holy Spirit's guidance to 200 years or so. the idea that the local church was a "complete church" to me seems a bit biased and hard to maintain post Nicaea. What about the "fragmentum" (piece of Eucharist bread) that was passed between churches as early as the 4th century in order to keep unity among the whole of churches? I'm not sure how we can view the Eucharist in one particular location as "completing" the church in any way.Michael ClineMon, 11 Feb 2008 08:31:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7889/#comment-5296140There needs to be a place for baptism if we are going to talk about the identity of the early Church and local congregations. I just found out Cavanaugh teaches up here in Minnesota, (St. Thomas) so I am going to have to get on that. My problem with discussion of "early church" vs. today's expression is that it seems to limit the Holy Spirit's guidance to 200 years or so. the idea that the local church was a "complete church" to me seems a bit biased and hard to maintain post Nicaea. What about the "fragmentum" (piece of Eucharist bread) that was passed between churches as early as the 4th century in order to keep unity among the whole of churches? I'm not sure how we can view the Eucharist in one particular location as "completing" the church in any way.Michael ClineMon, 11 Feb 2008 08:31:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/new_monasticism_fringe_christianity/#comment-1312526I also think leaning on baptism as mystical union with Christ's death and resurrection would also go along way in establishing personal identity within the universal Church. In my mind, this may be a more accessible route in circumventing national borders with allegiance to Christ's body first and foremost. I've read a few articles that take this road. Not sure by who, but Hauerwas is my guess.Michael ClineMon, 11 Feb 2008 08:34:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7889/#comment-5296141I also think leaning on baptism as mystical union with Christ's death and resurrection would also go along way in establishing personal identity within the universal Church. In my mind, this may be a more accessible route in circumventing national borders with allegiance to Christ's body first and foremost. I've read a few articles that take this road. Not sure by who, but Hauerwas is my guess.Michael ClineMon, 11 Feb 2008 08:34:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_011/#comment-5296226I really like the synergistic model. That's very helpful Jason. This whole conversation is really helpful, especially for those of us in more "traditional" church settings. Perhaps the common expressions of Eucharist, Baptism, etc... could be a nice place to settle into some of these discussions with others different than us (meaning, less sacramental, less missional, less communal, etc...). Despite its infrequency, for example, baptism is still pretty revered in the local church. A thorough discussion of that more well-known (but perhaps less understood) topic could lend itself to furthering a discussion on what it means to be the Church, to be missional, and so forth.Michael ClineMon, 11 Feb 2008 17:29:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_incarnation_eucharist_and_community_27/#comment-1312590I really like the synergistic model. That's very helpful Jason. This whole conversation is really helpful, especially for those of us in more "traditional" church settings. Perhaps the common expressions of Eucharist, Baptism, etc... could be a nice place to settle into some of these discussions with others different than us (meaning, less sacramental, less missional, less communal, etc...). Despite its infrequency, for example, baptism is still pretty revered in the local church. A thorough discussion of that more well-known (but perhaps less understood) topic could lend itself to furthering a discussion on what it means to be the Church, to be missional, and so forth.Michael ClineMon, 11 Feb 2008 18:29:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_011/#comment-5296214I really like the synergistic model. That's very helpful Jason. This whole conversation is really helpful, especially for those of us in more "traditional" church settings. Perhaps the common expressions of Eucharist, Baptism, etc... could be a nice place to settle into some of these discussions with others different than us (meaning, less sacramental, less missional, less communal, etc...). Despite its infrequency, for example, baptism is still pretty revered in the local church. A thorough discussion of that more well-known (but perhaps less understood) topic could lend itself to furthering a discussion on what it means to be the Church, to be missional, and so forth.Michael ClineMon, 11 Feb 2008 18:29:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_3330/#comment-5296311It's hard to find a denominational stream of the Christian religion that at its roots was ever "pro-war." Oh, Augustine, what did you do!?Michael ClineTue, 12 Feb 2008 13:56:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/an_open_letter_to_my_pentecostal_brothers_and_sisters_regarding_the_issue_of_war/#comment-1312797It's hard to find a denominational stream of the Christian religion that at its roots was ever "pro-war." Oh, Augustine, what did you do!?Michael ClineTue, 12 Feb 2008 14:56:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_3330/#comment-5296307It's hard to find a denominational stream of the Christian religion that at its roots was ever "pro-war." Oh, Augustine, what did you do!?Michael ClineTue, 12 Feb 2008 14:56:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_374/#comment-5296340Love to contribute whatever I can. Not much experience with Latino cultures, but I did spend a month in Haiti. The conversations about the Spirit there were quite interesting, considering the influence of Voodoo throughout the country.<br></br><br>I'd also help you out with any editing or writing you are doing. But you know that already.</br>Michael ClineTue, 12 Feb 2008 15:54:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/an_emerging_pentecost/#comment-1312805Love to contribute whatever I can. Not much experience with Latino cultures, but I did spend a month in Haiti. The conversations about the Spirit there were quite interesting, considering the influence of Voodoo throughout the country.<br><br>I'd also help you out with any editing or writing you are doing. But you know that already.Michael ClineTue, 12 Feb 2008 16:54:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_374/#comment-5296332Love to contribute whatever I can. Not much experience with Latino cultures, but I did spend a month in Haiti. The conversations about the Spirit there were quite interesting, considering the influence of Voodoo throughout the country.<br><br>I'd also help you out with any editing or writing you are doing. But you know that already.Michael ClineTue, 12 Feb 2008 16:54:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9660/#comment-5296276Then there's that whole tricky thing about "there is no salvation outside the church" that many early Christian theologians adopted (Novatian in particular I believe). What do we do with that?Michael ClineWed, 13 Feb 2008 16:30:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/soundtrack_for_revolution/#comment-1312950I'll throw the obvious (but still lovable) U2 out there. Ok, now everyone else has to be more creativeMichael ClineWed, 13 Feb 2008 17:28:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/sundays_with_the_anarchist/#comment-1312731Then there's that whole tricky thing about "there is no salvation outside the church" that many early Christian theologians adopted (Novatian in particular I believe). What do we do with that?Michael ClineWed, 13 Feb 2008 17:30:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_9660/#comment-5296247Then there's that whole tricky thing about "there is no salvation outside the church" that many early Christian theologians adopted (Novatian in particular I believe). What do we do with that?Michael ClineWed, 13 Feb 2008 17:30:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/soundtrack_for_revolution/#comment-1312958JoshuaEllens,<br><br>I'm not as pick about whether it is "emergent" or not. I was just trying to think of what music captures the spirit of our work and the focus on the Kingdom of God and all the other changes that have recently come to the doorsteps of the Church. I think Mullins definitely fits the bill. As long as we tone down the "Awesome God" track on overkill. :)<br><br>I'll throw Josh Ritter on the pile. His lyrics and style are right on par with this idea of subversiveness and aesthetics pointing towards something revolutionary.Michael ClineThu, 14 Feb 2008 09:09:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_471/#comment-5296431I need like three good days to get myself together in time to come back to this post. Let me think on this. Mark, keep this post up for a few days. This one could get fun.Michael ClineThu, 14 Feb 2008 17:25:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/our_heavenly_mother/#comment-1313038I need like three good days to get myself together in time to come back to this post. Let me think on this. Mark, keep this post up for a few days. This one could get fun.Michael ClineThu, 14 Feb 2008 18:25:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_471/#comment-5296415I need like three good days to get myself together in time to come back to this post. Let me think on this. Mark, keep this post up for a few days. This one could get fun.Michael ClineThu, 14 Feb 2008 18:25:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_471/#comment-5296440The way I see it, there are three options, and every option has a common denominator:<br></br><br>(1) We use original Biblical language when speaking about God in any way, shape, or form. This would reduce about 75% of what takes place in most sunday morning sermons/worship services. The option requires a huge does of education of clergy and laity in the fact that the Biblical language does not point towards God having a set of particular physical features or genitalia. Ekklesia (church or assembly) is a feminine word in the Greek, but it doesn't mean the Church is made up of women or can get pregnant.</br><br></br><br>(2) We use inclusive language as much as possible, referring to God as both mother and father. This requires just as much education to dispel rumors that once again, God is literally either or that your experience of "father" and "mother" necessarily pertain to God's divine characteristics/image. </br><br></br><br>(3) We use "sterile" language, referring to God as much as possible with terms like God, Yahweh, etc... One major problem with this view is the impersonal nature it gives to God. If God is a personal God, intimately involved in humanity, this method seems inadequate. The Incarnation happened. God came in flesh, human flesh. Again, education needed.</br><br></br><br>The bottom line: We need to educate our friends circles and audiences despite what method we choose about the nature of God and our inadequate language. There is not option of not speaking. The Incarnation necessitates translation of the divine into the human messiness of language, art, etc... I'm obviously a fan of option #1 or #2. I feel free to mix it up depending on the sensitivities of the crowd I am in. This is not a hill I'm willing to die on. People who are dogmatic on this issue (Grudem, Poythress on one side...TNIV die hards on the other) seem to care more about their preferences than about the people who need to encounter the gospel in our daily interactions.</br>Michael ClineFri, 15 Feb 2008 12:46:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_471/#comment-5296441"God is supergendered." Hmm...not sure how I feel about that. <br></br><br>It makes God seem like a "super-human." I'm reminded of something Barth once said about how Jesus is not "humanity, but said with a shout." He is more than that. The goal of the Christian life is not to be superhuman, but to be properly human, in the manner showed to us in the life of Christ.</br>Michael ClineFri, 15 Feb 2008 12:48:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/our_heavenly_mother/#comment-1313026The way I see it, there are three options, and every option has a common denominator:<br><br>(1) We use original Biblical language when speaking about God in any way, shape, or form. This would reduce about 75% of what takes place in most sunday morning sermons/worship services. The option requires a huge does of education of clergy and laity in the fact that the Biblical language does not point towards God having a set of particular physical features or genitalia. Ekklesia (church or assembly) is a feminine word in the Greek, but it doesn't mean the Church is made up of women or can get pregnant.<br><br>(2) We use inclusive language as much as possible, referring to God as both mother and father. This requires just as much education to dispel rumors that once again, God is literally either or that your experience of "father" and "mother" necessarily pertain to God's divine characteristics/image. <br><br>(3) We use "sterile" language, referring to God as much as possible with terms like God, Yahweh, etc... One major problem with this view is the impersonal nature it gives to God. If God is a personal God, intimately involved in humanity, this method seems inadequate. The Incarnation happened. God came in flesh, human flesh. Again, education needed.<br><br>The bottom line: We need to educate our friends circles and audiences despite what method we choose about the nature of God and our inadequate language. There is not option of not speaking. The Incarnation necessitates translation of the divine into the human messiness of language, art, etc... I'm obviously a fan of option #1 or #2. I feel free to mix it up depending on the sensitivities of the crowd I am in. This is not a hill I'm willing to die on. People who are dogmatic on this issue (Grudem, Poythress on one side...TNIV die hards on the other) seem to care more about their preferences than about the people who need to encounter the gospel in our daily interactions.Michael ClineFri, 15 Feb 2008 13:46:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_471/#comment-5296409The way I see it, there are three options, and every option has a common denominator:<br><br>(1) We use original Biblical language when speaking about God in any way, shape, or form. This would reduce about 75% of what takes place in most sunday morning sermons/worship services. The option requires a huge does of education of clergy and laity in the fact that the Biblical language does not point towards God having a set of particular physical features or genitalia. Ekklesia (church or assembly) is a feminine word in the Greek, but it doesn't mean the Church is made up of women or can get pregnant.<br><br>(2) We use inclusive language as much as possible, referring to God as both mother and father. This requires just as much education to dispel rumors that once again, God is literally either or that your experience of "father" and "mother" necessarily pertain to God's divine characteristics/image.<br><br>(3) We use "sterile" language, referring to God as much as possible with terms like God, Yahweh, etc... One major problem with this view is the impersonal nature it gives to God. If God is a personal God, intimately involved in humanity, this method seems inadequate. The Incarnation happened. God came in flesh, human flesh. Again, education needed.<br><br>The bottom line: We need to educate our friends circles and audiences despite what method we choose about the nature of God and our inadequate language. There is not option of not speaking. The Incarnation necessitates translation of the divine into the human messiness of language, art, etc... I'm obviously a fan of option #1 or #2. I feel free to mix it up depending on the sensitivities of the crowd I am in. This is not a hill I'm willing to die on. People who are dogmatic on this issue (Grudem, Poythress on one side...TNIV die hards on the other) seem to care more about their preferences than about the people who need to encounter the gospel in our daily interactions.Michael ClineFri, 15 Feb 2008 13:46:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/our_heavenly_mother/#comment-1313028"God is supergendered." Hmm...not sure how I feel about that. <br><br>It makes God seem like a "super-human." I'm reminded of something Barth once said about how Jesus is not "humanity, but said with a shout." He is more than that. The goal of the Christian life is not to be superhuman, but to be properly human, in the manner showed to us in the life of Christ.Michael ClineFri, 15 Feb 2008 13:48:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_471/#comment-5296410"God is supergendered." Hmm...not sure how I feel about that.<br><br>It makes God seem like a "super-human." I'm reminded of something Barth once said about how Jesus is not "humanity, but said with a shout." He is more than that. The goal of the Christian life is not to be superhuman, but to be properly human, in the manner showed to us in the life of Christ.Michael ClineFri, 15 Feb 2008 13:48:52 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_471/#comment-5296461Someone mentioned earlier that Jesus came as a MAN, which apparently means that masculinity was valued over femininity or something like that. I wish I had my early church fathers down more, because there is a great one floating out there (perhaps by Athanasius) that tackle that very question: Why did Jesus come "have" to come as a MAN (I'm guessing it's in his "On the Incarnation of the Word." Check it out whoever is interested. <br></br><br>Joel--"Perhaps we should focus on educating our brothers and sisters on what God really is. This could prove to be a bit problematic since I don’t believe that any of us can fully comprehend what God really is. So, we will just have to do our best."</br><br></br><br>Regardless of our option, education in our churches and on the grassroot level is the key! I absolutely agree!</br>Michael ClineSun, 17 Feb 2008 09:20:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/our_heavenly_mother/#comment-1313030Someone mentioned earlier that Jesus came as a MAN, which apparently means that masculinity was valued over femininity or something like that. I wish I had my early church fathers down more, because there is a great one floating out there (perhaps by Athanasius) that tackle that very question: Why did Jesus come "have" to come as a MAN (I'm guessing it's in his "On the Incarnation of the Word." Check it out whoever is interested. <br><br>Joel--"Perhaps we should focus on educating our brothers and sisters on what God really is. This could prove to be a bit problematic since I don’t believe that any of us can fully comprehend what God really is. So, we will just have to do our best."<br><br>Regardless of our option, education in our churches and on the grassroot level is the key! I absolutely agree!Michael ClineSun, 17 Feb 2008 10:20:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_471/#comment-5296411Someone mentioned earlier that Jesus came as a MAN, which apparently means that masculinity was valued over femininity or something like that. I wish I had my early church fathers down more, because there is a great one floating out there (perhaps by Athanasius) that tackle that very question: Why did Jesus come "have" to come as a MAN (I'm guessing it's in his "On the Incarnation of the Word." Check it out whoever is interested.<br><br>Joel--"Perhaps we should focus on educating our brothers and sisters on what God really is. This could prove to be a bit problematic since I don’t believe that any of us can fully comprehend what God really is. So, we will just have to do our best."<br><br>Regardless of our option, education in our churches and on the grassroot level is the key! I absolutely agree!Michael ClineSun, 17 Feb 2008 10:20:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1420/#comment-5296706I think this is a good response. The broad strokes these "researchers" paint is sad and ultimately, not productive for the Kingdom whatsoever other than to spread fear and misunderstanding. This can be seen in recent events at Cedarville University with Shane Claiborne (ironically, Silva and his "ministry" was in the picture there as well). <br></br><br>However, no response will be enough. They will keep coming. You know that. Cedarville is already catching flack for their next speaker. The difference is, you have chosen to defend yourself mildly and go about your business you feel God has led you to. Cedarville did not do this and will forever be playing the game with this critics,</br>Michael ClineTue, 19 Feb 2008 10:44:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/why_is_8220new_monasticism8221_controversial/#comment-1313280I think this is a good response. The broad strokes these "researchers" paint is sad and ultimately, not productive for the Kingdom whatsoever other than to spread fear and misunderstanding. This can be seen in recent events at Cedarville University with Shane Claiborne (ironically, Silva and his "ministry" was in the picture there as well). <br><br>However, no response will be enough. They will keep coming. You know that. Cedarville is already catching flack for their next speaker. The difference is, you have chosen to defend yourself mildly and go about your business you feel God has led you to. Cedarville did not do this and will forever be playing the game with this critics,Michael ClineTue, 19 Feb 2008 11:44:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1420/#comment-5296690I think this is a good response. The broad strokes these "researchers" paint is sad and ultimately, not productive for the Kingdom whatsoever other than to spread fear and misunderstanding. This can be seen in recent events at Cedarville University with Shane Claiborne (ironically, Silva and his "ministry" was in the picture there as well).<br><br>However, no response will be enough. They will keep coming. You know that. Cedarville is already catching flack for their next speaker. The difference is, you have chosen to defend yourself mildly and go about your business you feel God has led you to. Cedarville did not do this and will forever be playing the game with this critics,Michael ClineTue, 19 Feb 2008 11:44:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_8795/#comment-5296671It's either some sort of tag line, or you are going to see some video on you tube trying to disclaim your Christianity. :) pick your poisonMichael ClineWed, 20 Feb 2008 07:05:44 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/manuscript_reveals_revisions_in_sermon_on_the_mount/#comment-1313251It's either some sort of tag line, or you are going to see some video on you tube trying to disclaim your Christianity. :) pick your poisonMichael ClineWed, 20 Feb 2008 08:05:44 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_8795/#comment-5296629It's either some sort of tag line, or you are going to see some video on you tube trying to disclaim your Christianity. :) pick your poisonMichael ClineWed, 20 Feb 2008 08:05:44 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_849/#comment-5296788We've already talked a bit about this in person, but I'll just say that I completely understand your urge to find compensation, not only for the sake of living expenses, but for the sake of expanding the ministry you feel God has led you to. Connecting with your clan and Jesus Manifesto has been a great tool of learning and understanding to me personally. If I wasn't in the same boat you were, I'd write you a monthly check to cover costs!<br></br><br>I used to think that anyone who had ads or went "commercial" was "selling out"-- </br><br></br><br>............................................And then I turned 19.......................................................... </br><br></br><br>This isn't about being "indie"...it's about being faithful, that is the only goal worth striving for (a good friend of mine recently gave me this advice via facebook). In no way would you be detouring from that goal if you found a way to fund this endeavor. Let me know if I can be of any assistance. Meeting with churches, reps from other ministries, promotion, editing, whatever...you know I"m here.</br>Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 07:45:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_681/#comment-5296824In my humble opinion, I think the "in/out" game over education and theological discourse occurs unknowingly most of the time. I've heard both sides of the story from various people, and almost always they maintain a posture of "they throw around language purposefully," or "they look down on me because..." when in reality, neither party means to do what they do. It's usually out of ignorance (which is funny, because they are really educated, which tends to be the sticking point to begin with).<br></br><br>It's a constant struggle for me. I'm in seminary. I read a ton. I study hard. I want a job in Academia someday. But I also minister on a weekly basis to people who don't share those ambitions and whose faith is formed very different from mine. I think that's a side we forget--for me, the educational side of my life is spiritual formation. It's what makes me tick. It's not just a hoop I jump through or a means of exploitation of less educated people. It's meeting with God in what can be a very intimate way. Yes, even over a philosophy textbook. </br><br></br><br>Thanks for standing at the gate and yelling a bit. I don't think you are as "barbaric" as you think you are, though. Great thoughts!</br>Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 07:52:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/mammon_you_cruel_bastard/#comment-1313380We've already talked a bit about this in person, but I'll just say that I completely understand your urge to find compensation, not only for the sake of living expenses, but for the sake of expanding the ministry you feel God has led you to. Connecting with your clan and Jesus Manifesto has been a great tool of learning and understanding to me personally. If I wasn't in the same boat you were, I'd write you a monthly check to cover costs!<br><br>I used to think that anyone who had ads or went "commercial" was "selling out"-- <br><br>............................................And then I turned 19.......................................................... <br><br>This isn't about being "indie"...it's about being faithful, that is the only goal worth striving for (a good friend of mine recently gave me this advice via facebook). In no way would you be detouring from that goal if you found a way to fund this endeavor. Let me know if I can be of any assistance. Meeting with churches, reps from other ministries, promotion, editing, whatever...you know I"m here.Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 08:45:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_849/#comment-5296778We've already talked a bit about this in person, but I'll just say that I completely understand your urge to find compensation, not only for the sake of living expenses, but for the sake of expanding the ministry you feel God has led you to. Connecting with your clan and Jesus Manifesto has been a great tool of learning and understanding to me personally. If I wasn't in the same boat you were, I'd write you a monthly check to cover costs!<br><br>I used to think that anyone who had ads or went "commercial" was "selling out"--<br><br>............................................And then I turned 19..........................................................<br><br>This isn't about being "indie"...it's about being faithful, that is the only goal worth striving for (a good friend of mine recently gave me this advice via facebook). In no way would you be detouring from that goal if you found a way to fund this endeavor. Let me know if I can be of any assistance. Meeting with churches, reps from other ministries, promotion, editing, whatever...you know I"m here.Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 08:45:03 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/barbarian_at_the_gate/#comment-1313393In my humble opinion, I think the "in/out" game over education and theological discourse occurs unknowingly most of the time. I've heard both sides of the story from various people, and almost always they maintain a posture of "they throw around language purposefully," or "they look down on me because..." when in reality, neither party means to do what they do. It's usually out of ignorance (which is funny, because they are really educated, which tends to be the sticking point to begin with).<br><br>It's a constant struggle for me. I'm in seminary. I read a ton. I study hard. I want a job in Academia someday. But I also minister on a weekly basis to people who don't share those ambitions and whose faith is formed very different from mine. I think that's a side we forget--for me, the educational side of my life is spiritual formation. It's what makes me tick. It's not just a hoop I jump through or a means of exploitation of less educated people. It's meeting with God in what can be a very intimate way. Yes, even over a philosophy textbook. <br><br>Thanks for standing at the gate and yelling a bit. I don't think you are as "barbaric" as you think you are, though. Great thoughts!Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 08:52:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_681/#comment-5296822In my humble opinion, I think the "in/out" game over education and theological discourse occurs unknowingly most of the time. I've heard both sides of the story from various people, and almost always they maintain a posture of "they throw around language purposefully," or "they look down on me because..." when in reality, neither party means to do what they do. It's usually out of ignorance (which is funny, because they are really educated, which tends to be the sticking point to begin with).<br><br>It's a constant struggle for me. I'm in seminary. I read a ton. I study hard. I want a job in Academia someday. But I also minister on a weekly basis to people who don't share those ambitions and whose faith is formed very different from mine. I think that's a side we forget--for me, the educational side of my life is spiritual formation. It's what makes me tick. It's not just a hoop I jump through or a means of exploitation of less educated people. It's meeting with God in what can be a very intimate way. Yes, even over a philosophy textbook.<br><br>Thanks for standing at the gate and yelling a bit. I don't think you are as "barbaric" as you think you are, though. Great thoughts!Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 08:52:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_849/#comment-5296792While I appreciate Jordan's coming to my defense (or at least backing me up a bit), I think you are both taking my statement way more serious than it was intended. Perhaps I overstated, but I was simply trying to say that the attitude of "running ads makes you a sell-out" is naive and immature. Jonas, I didn't think you had this attitude, therefore, in no way was my comment directed at you. Trust me, I'm far from thinking I'm mature.<br></br><br>This is the peril of blogging and online communication. Much harder to get the "meaning" of the text without "embodiment." (critical realism) Or, if you prefer Speech-Act theory:You read my "locution" but missed my intended "illocution." Wow, I really need to get out of hermeneutics for a while.</br>Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 09:29:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/mammon_you_cruel_bastard/#comment-1313378While I appreciate Jordan's coming to my defense (or at least backing me up a bit), I think you are both taking my statement way more serious than it was intended. Perhaps I overstated, but I was simply trying to say that the attitude of "running ads makes you a sell-out" is naive and immature. Jonas, I didn't think you had this attitude, therefore, in no way was my comment directed at you. Trust me, I'm far from thinking I'm mature.<br><br>This is the peril of blogging and online communication. Much harder to get the "meaning" of the text without "embodiment." (critical realism) Or, if you prefer Speech-Act theory:You read my "locution" but missed my intended "illocution." Wow, I really need to get out of hermeneutics for a while.Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 10:29:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_849/#comment-5296776While I appreciate Jordan's coming to my defense (or at least backing me up a bit), I think you are both taking my statement way more serious than it was intended. Perhaps I overstated, but I was simply trying to say that the attitude of "running ads makes you a sell-out" is naive and immature. Jonas, I didn't think you had this attitude, therefore, in no way was my comment directed at you. Trust me, I'm far from thinking I'm mature.<br><br>This is the peril of blogging and online communication. Much harder to get the "meaning" of the text without "embodiment." (critical realism) Or, if you prefer Speech-Act theory:You read my "locution" but missed my intended "illocution." Wow, I really need to get out of hermeneutics for a while.Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 10:29:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_849/#comment-5296796In 2 Corinthians chapters 8 and 9, Paul seems to basically be pumping up the Corinthians ahead of time before the offering plates are being passed. Their tithe goes towards the ministry in other churches and to Paul's pursuits around the Church universal. Oddly enough, chapter 10 starts off with Paul feeling the pressure to defend his ministry.Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 11:13:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/mammon_you_cruel_bastard/#comment-1313362In 2 Corinthians chapters 8 and 9, Paul seems to basically be pumping up the Corinthians ahead of time before the offering plates are being passed. Their tithe goes towards the ministry in other churches and to Paul's pursuits around the Church universal. Oddly enough, chapter 10 starts off with Paul feeling the pressure to defend his ministry.Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 12:13:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_849/#comment-5296761In 2 Corinthians chapters 8 and 9, Paul seems to basically be pumping up the Corinthians ahead of time before the offering plates are being passed. Their tithe goes towards the ministry in other churches and to Paul's pursuits around the Church universal. Oddly enough, chapter 10 starts off with Paul feeling the pressure to defend his ministry.Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 12:13:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_681/#comment-5296829Which is why I'm glad God has brought people into my life like you Mark. My vision of ministry may not be yours per se, but I know that you will push me to not "sell out." Keep bringing this up the next three years, and maybe, just maybe I'll become a part of that "something amazing."Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 15:53:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/barbarian_at_the_gate/#comment-1313390Which is why I'm glad God has brought people into my life like you Mark. My vision of ministry may not be yours per se, but I know that you will push me to not "sell out." Keep bringing this up the next three years, and maybe, just maybe I'll become a part of that "something amazing."Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 16:53:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_681/#comment-5296819Which is why I'm glad God has brought people into my life like you Mark. My vision of ministry may not be yours per se, but I know that you will push me to not "sell out." Keep bringing this up the next three years, and maybe, just maybe I'll become a part of that "something amazing."Michael ClineThu, 21 Feb 2008 16:53:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_254/#comment-5296874Chapter 12 is really intriguing to me. Where you going with that one exactly?<br>I, like Jordan, will have to think a bit before I say more.</br>Michael ClineFri, 22 Feb 2008 13:48:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/help_me_write_a_christarchy_primer/#comment-1313450Chapter 12 is really intriguing to me. Where you going with that one exactly?<br>I, like Jordan, will have to think a bit before I say more.Michael ClineFri, 22 Feb 2008 14:48:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_254/#comment-5296847Chapter 12 is really intriguing to me. Where you going with that one exactly?<br>I, like Jordan, will have to think a bit before I say more.Michael ClineFri, 22 Feb 2008 14:48:06 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_254/#comment-5296875Would this primer include an intro or preface of some sort that explained the very use of the term "Christarchy" and all the baggage with anarchism? I think that has to be in there for sure (I'm guessing you already know this). I think it would also be cool if everyone in the particular group/community using the primer would have one or two people share each week (depending on how many were in the group) about how they've come to this place in their spiritual journey, what they hope to get out it, where they've already seen some of these ideas forming their lives, etc... Sort of the whole "my story is wrapped up in your story, which is wrapped up in God's story" principle.Michael ClineFri, 22 Feb 2008 16:56:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/help_me_write_a_christarchy_primer/#comment-1313452Would this primer include an intro or preface of some sort that explained the very use of the term "Christarchy" and all the baggage with anarchism? I think that has to be in there for sure (I'm guessing you already know this). I think it would also be cool if everyone in the particular group/community using the primer would have one or two people share each week (depending on how many were in the group) about how they've come to this place in their spiritual journey, what they hope to get out it, where they've already seen some of these ideas forming their lives, etc... Sort of the whole "my story is wrapped up in your story, which is wrapped up in God's story" principle.Michael ClineFri, 22 Feb 2008 17:56:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_254/#comment-5296849Would this primer include an intro or preface of some sort that explained the very use of the term "Christarchy" and all the baggage with anarchism? I think that has to be in there for sure (I'm guessing you already know this). I think it would also be cool if everyone in the particular group/community using the primer would have one or two people share each week (depending on how many were in the group) about how they've come to this place in their spiritual journey, what they hope to get out it, where they've already seen some of these ideas forming their lives, etc... Sort of the whole "my story is wrapped up in your story, which is wrapped up in God's story" principle.Michael ClineFri, 22 Feb 2008 17:56:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_254/#comment-5296894#1- I agree with Mark on the "Allelon" reference. <br></br><br>#2- Think you could get Scot Mcknight to contribute to the Jesus Creed chapter? That'll get you some readers and some major credibility in vast circles.</br><br></br><br>#3- go with it!</br>Michael ClineSun, 24 Feb 2008 09:27:04 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/help_me_write_a_christarchy_primer/#comment-1313453#1- I agree with Mark on the "Allelon" reference. <br><br>#2- Think you could get Scot Mcknight to contribute to the Jesus Creed chapter? That'll get you some readers and some major credibility in vast circles.<br><br>#3- go with it!Michael ClineSun, 24 Feb 2008 10:27:04 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_254/#comment-5296850#1- I agree with Mark on the "Allelon" reference.<br><br>#2- Think you could get Scot Mcknight to contribute to the Jesus Creed chapter? That'll get you some readers and some major credibility in vast circles.<br><br>#3- go with it!Michael ClineSun, 24 Feb 2008 10:27:04 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_039/#comment-5296962You are in my prayer this week, my man-tine.Michael ClineMon, 25 Feb 2008 10:35:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/this_week_the_new_conspirators/#comment-1313496You are in my prayer this week, my man-tine.Michael ClineMon, 25 Feb 2008 11:35:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_039/#comment-5296957You are in my prayer this week, my man-tine.Michael ClineMon, 25 Feb 2008 11:35:36 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_039/#comment-5296967Eliacin, your cry for mercy has been heard. I'll add you to my prayer list as you lug Mark around the city. He can be a bit testy.Michael ClineTue, 26 Feb 2008 08:36:51 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/this_week_the_new_conspirators/#comment-1313500Eliacin, your cry for mercy has been heard. I'll add you to my prayer list as you lug Mark around the city. He can be a bit testy.Michael ClineTue, 26 Feb 2008 09:36:51 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_039/#comment-5296961Eliacin, your cry for mercy has been heard. I'll add you to my prayer list as you lug Mark around the city. He can be a bit testy.Michael ClineTue, 26 Feb 2008 09:36:51 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2944/#comment-5296995Imitation is the purest form of flattery right? Or something like that.<br></br><br>Did you get an early copy or is this out already? I need a copy so I can hang with the Bethel people.</br>Michael ClineWed, 27 Feb 2008 09:15:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/book_review_jesus_for_president_initial_thoughts/#comment-1313537Imitation is the purest form of flattery right? Or something like that.<br><br>Did you get an early copy or is this out already? I need a copy so I can hang with the Bethel people.Michael ClineWed, 27 Feb 2008 10:15:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2944/#comment-5296987Imitation is the purest form of flattery right? Or something like that.<br><br>Did you get an early copy or is this out already? I need a copy so I can hang with the Bethel people.Michael ClineWed, 27 Feb 2008 10:15:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297033*typo alert*-- Beck Garrison is actually Becky Garrison. Whoops.<br></br><br>By the temptation of "purity," I am referring to the attitude of certainty and dogmatism that sets up the fringe movement as positively right, with the rest of the Church left on the side as the obvious apostate. I think it is ok to consider your work as a more pure development or example of Christ, but not in a way that distances yourself from others simply for the feel of it. Bonhoeffer remained a Lutheran till the day he was executed. He called out from within Lutheranism to his German brothers and sisters who were failing to carry their cross, but in no way did he set himself up as the perfect example. If this happens, I fail to see how Missio Dei or any other group would be any different than the fundamentalist KJV only preacher with his church of 6 people, who shouts at the world "We may have gone from 100 to 6, but that's because the other 94 couldn't handle the truth." It's reckless. You don't do this, most of the Jesus Manifesto crowd doesn't do this, but its' something we need to think about.</br><br></br><br>I don't have a 5 hour lay over to address the rest of your comment. Till then...</br>Michael ClineWed, 27 Feb 2008 15:59:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_church_and_the_radicals_match_made_in_heaven/#comment-1313556*typo alert*-- Beck Garrison is actually Becky Garrison. Whoops.<br><br>By the temptation of "purity," I am referring to the attitude of certainty and dogmatism that sets up the fringe movement as positively right, with the rest of the Church left on the side as the obvious apostate. I think it is ok to consider your work as a more pure development or example of Christ, but not in a way that distances yourself from others simply for the feel of it. Bonhoeffer remained a Lutheran till the day he was executed. He called out from within Lutheranism to his German brothers and sisters who were failing to carry their cross, but in no way did he set himself up as the perfect example. If this happens, I fail to see how Missio Dei or any other group would be any different than the fundamentalist KJV only preacher with his church of 6 people, who shouts at the world "We may have gone from 100 to 6, but that's because the other 94 couldn't handle the truth." It's reckless. You don't do this, most of the Jesus Manifesto crowd doesn't do this, but its' something we need to think about.<br><br>I don't have a 5 hour lay over to address the rest of your comment. Till then...Michael ClineWed, 27 Feb 2008 16:59:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297014*typo alert*-- Beck Garrison is actually Becky Garrison. Whoops.<br><br>By the temptation of "purity," I am referring to the attitude of certainty and dogmatism that sets up the fringe movement as positively right, with the rest of the Church left on the side as the obvious apostate. I think it is ok to consider your work as a more pure development or example of Christ, but not in a way that distances yourself from others simply for the feel of it. Bonhoeffer remained a Lutheran till the day he was executed. He called out from within Lutheranism to his German brothers and sisters who were failing to carry their cross, but in no way did he set himself up as the perfect example. If this happens, I fail to see how Missio Dei or any other group would be any different than the fundamentalist KJV only preacher with his church of 6 people, who shouts at the world "We may have gone from 100 to 6, but that's because the other 94 couldn't handle the truth." It's reckless. You don't do this, most of the Jesus Manifesto crowd doesn't do this, but its' something we need to think about.<br><br>I don't have a 5 hour lay over to address the rest of your comment. Till then...Michael ClineWed, 27 Feb 2008 16:59:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297036Wow. Thanks Chris! Sometimes I worry that we are so constantly focused on "don't get absorbed, don't get absorbed" that we miss valuable connections and relationships that could serve the Kingdom in the long run. Don't get me wrong, I think fringe movements that get absorbed often do lose their prophetic impulse, that's just the way the game tends to go. But at the same time, if we are so worried about remaining counter-cultural that we never partner up or reach out to the mainstream in a tangible way (just like we would serve the poor or the visitor), then our movement is going to just become a counter cultural ethos for the sake of itself. If Waite Park Wesleyan Church (where I attend) never come in contact with even the ideas of Missio Dei, what's the point? I guess I'm being a bit selfish here, but this is what I see myself trying to do, and maybe I want to seek validation, I don't know. But I want to be formed by Missio Dei and other "fringe" folk and then take that with me throughout the week and on Sundays when I meet up with others who are totally removed from such a prophetic voice. It's this very movement that I think allowed the larger Church in the early centuries to be developed spiritually--monks at heart like Athanasius and Basil come into ecclesiastical office (unwillingly) and brought their monastic lives with them. <br></br><br>And of course, the movement maintained itself on the outside. It didn't cease to exist just because a few people drafted into the mainstream. And, according to Gonzalez, this drafting actually spread the monastic ideal further than it would have had it remained a few lonely communities separated from the mainstream.</br>Michael ClineThu, 28 Feb 2008 08:44:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297037I'm reading a book right now recalling Ernst Troelstch's categories of "sect" and "Church" and how it usually plays out over time. Very interesting in light of this discussion.Michael ClineThu, 28 Feb 2008 08:46:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_church_and_the_radicals_match_made_in_heaven/#comment-1313561Wow. Thanks Chris! Sometimes I worry that we are so constantly focused on "don't get absorbed, don't get absorbed" that we miss valuable connections and relationships that could serve the Kingdom in the long run. Don't get me wrong, I think fringe movements that get absorbed often do lose their prophetic impulse, that's just the way the game tends to go. But at the same time, if we are so worried about remaining counter-cultural that we never partner up or reach out to the mainstream in a tangible way (just like we would serve the poor or the visitor), then our movement is going to just become a counter cultural ethos for the sake of itself. If Waite Park Wesleyan Church (where I attend) never come in contact with even the ideas of Missio Dei, what's the point? I guess I'm being a bit selfish here, but this is what I see myself trying to do, and maybe I want to seek validation, I don't know. But I want to be formed by Missio Dei and other "fringe" folk and then take that with me throughout the week and on Sundays when I meet up with others who are totally removed from such a prophetic voice. It's this very movement that I think allowed the larger Church in the early centuries to be developed spiritually--monks at heart like Athanasius and Basil come into ecclesiastical office (unwillingly) and brought their monastic lives with them. <br><br>And of course, the movement maintained itself on the outside. It didn't cease to exist just because a few people drafted into the mainstream. And, according to Gonzalez, this drafting actually spread the monastic ideal further than it would have had it remained a few lonely communities separated from the mainstream.Michael ClineThu, 28 Feb 2008 09:44:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297019Wow. Thanks Chris! Sometimes I worry that we are so constantly focused on "don't get absorbed, don't get absorbed" that we miss valuable connections and relationships that could serve the Kingdom in the long run. Don't get me wrong, I think fringe movements that get absorbed often do lose their prophetic impulse, that's just the way the game tends to go. But at the same time, if we are so worried about remaining counter-cultural that we never partner up or reach out to the mainstream in a tangible way (just like we would serve the poor or the visitor), then our movement is going to just become a counter cultural ethos for the sake of itself. If Waite Park Wesleyan Church (where I attend) never come in contact with even the ideas of Missio Dei, what's the point? I guess I'm being a bit selfish here, but this is what I see myself trying to do, and maybe I want to seek validation, I don't know. But I want to be formed by Missio Dei and other "fringe" folk and then take that with me throughout the week and on Sundays when I meet up with others who are totally removed from such a prophetic voice. It's this very movement that I think allowed the larger Church in the early centuries to be developed spiritually--monks at heart like Athanasius and Basil come into ecclesiastical office (unwillingly) and brought their monastic lives with them.<br><br>And of course, the movement maintained itself on the outside. It didn't cease to exist just because a few people drafted into the mainstream. And, according to Gonzalez, this drafting actually spread the monastic ideal further than it would have had it remained a few lonely communities separated from the mainstream.Michael ClineThu, 28 Feb 2008 09:44:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_church_and_the_radicals_match_made_in_heaven/#comment-1313562I'm reading a book right now recalling Ernst Troelstch's categories of "sect" and "Church" and how it usually plays out over time. Very interesting in light of this discussion.Michael ClineThu, 28 Feb 2008 09:46:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297020I'm reading a book right now recalling Ernst Troelstch's categories of "sect" and "Church" and how it usually plays out over time. Very interesting in light of this discussion.Michael ClineThu, 28 Feb 2008 09:46:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297039Well, granted I'm much better at the abstract stuff [that way I don't have to be affected by it. :) ]<br></br><br>I think it starts on a personal level, like you allude to. I have to personally absorb the prophetic call of a group like Missio Dei for example and then embody that throughout my week. So I go to ChristArchy, hang out with radicals such as yourself, read the same stuff, worship together, basically do life together and let your more "radical" side rub off on me. I come to a point where I no longer see you as fringe, but as right. But rather than stay there, I continually leave the pack and go back to my Protestant, low church, evangelical community I am apart of as well. It is there where I have to embody the prophetic impulse all the more. Slowly, through worshiping and serving with that community, the ideas of the fringe (which I have embodied) disseminate into the mainstream. You get to stay on the fringe, and the mainstream doesn't "look" as radical, but change has taken place. </br><br></br><br>For me, as someone wanting to be a pastor in more of a "mainstream" setting, Eugene Peterson's "Contemplative Pastor" has been huge. To him, the work of pastoral ministry is subversive, altering the situation by small degrees rather than direct confrontation. Anglo-Catholic Martin Thornton has a model of this he refers to as the "remnant." I don't like the name, but I really want to explore it further. The gist is that the remnant is to the local church what monasticism was to the larger church. He goes even further with it though. "The remnant stands in vicariously for the larger whole." It would be like Jesus and the chosen 12, but still remaining inside the larger church's walls. </br><br></br><br>This whole thing is called "parochial theology"--it's new to me, but I'll admit I'm sort of excited. Just a bit.</br>Michael ClineThu, 28 Feb 2008 11:55:18 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_church_and_the_radicals_match_made_in_heaven/#comment-1313564Well, granted I'm much better at the abstract stuff [that way I don't have to be affected by it. :) ]<br><br>I think it starts on a personal level, like you allude to. I have to personally absorb the prophetic call of a group like Missio Dei for example and then embody that throughout my week. So I go to ChristArchy, hang out with radicals such as yourself, read the same stuff, worship together, basically do life together and let your more "radical" side rub off on me. I come to a point where I no longer see you as fringe, but as right. But rather than stay there, I continually leave the pack and go back to my Protestant, low church, evangelical community I am apart of as well. It is there where I have to embody the prophetic impulse all the more. Slowly, through worshiping and serving with that community, the ideas of the fringe (which I have embodied) disseminate into the mainstream. You get to stay on the fringe, and the mainstream doesn't "look" as radical, but change has taken place. <br><br>For me, as someone wanting to be a pastor in more of a "mainstream" setting, Eugene Peterson's "Contemplative Pastor" has been huge. To him, the work of pastoral ministry is subversive, altering the situation by small degrees rather than direct confrontation. Anglo-Catholic Martin Thornton has a model of this he refers to as the "remnant." I don't like the name, but I really want to explore it further. The gist is that the remnant is to the local church what monasticism was to the larger church. He goes even further with it though. "The remnant stands in vicariously for the larger whole." It would be like Jesus and the chosen 12, but still remaining inside the larger church's walls. <br><br>This whole thing is called "parochial theology"--it's new to me, but I'll admit I'm sort of excited. Just a bit.Michael ClineThu, 28 Feb 2008 12:55:18 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297023Well, granted I'm much better at the abstract stuff [that way I don't have to be affected by it. :) ]<br><br>I think it starts on a personal level, like you allude to. I have to personally absorb the prophetic call of a group like Missio Dei for example and then embody that throughout my week. So I go to ChristArchy, hang out with radicals such as yourself, read the same stuff, worship together, basically do life together and let your more "radical" side rub off on me. I come to a point where I no longer see you as fringe, but as right. But rather than stay there, I continually leave the pack and go back to my Protestant, low church, evangelical community I am apart of as well. It is there where I have to embody the prophetic impulse all the more. Slowly, through worshiping and serving with that community, the ideas of the fringe (which I have embodied) disseminate into the mainstream. You get to stay on the fringe, and the mainstream doesn't "look" as radical, but change has taken place.<br><br>For me, as someone wanting to be a pastor in more of a "mainstream" setting, Eugene Peterson's "Contemplative Pastor" has been huge. To him, the work of pastoral ministry is subversive, altering the situation by small degrees rather than direct confrontation. Anglo-Catholic Martin Thornton has a model of this he refers to as the "remnant." I don't like the name, but I really want to explore it further. The gist is that the remnant is to the local church what monasticism was to the larger church. He goes even further with it though. "The remnant stands in vicariously for the larger whole." It would be like Jesus and the chosen 12, but still remaining inside the larger church's walls.<br><br>This whole thing is called "parochial theology"--it's new to me, but I'll admit I'm sort of excited. Just a bit.Michael ClineThu, 28 Feb 2008 12:55:18 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297041For sake of time this morning, I just want to respond a bit in bullet point format. Not as esthetically pleasing, but it will get the job done (Sorry, my American pragmatism is showing). I really appreciate these push-backs though, and I'd like to think this has been a constructive conversation to more people than just myself.<br></br><br>(1) I'm not in the "co-op always equals evil" club. Some co-opting results in absolute dissolution and negation of significance--this is to be avoided at all costs. But this isn't always the case. It's not nearly so black and white, where co-op = wrong and remaining absolutely distinct = right. That is one main reason I wrote this post. I'm wrestling with the spectrum too, but I think it exists. </br><br></br><br>(2) To borrow a popular phrase from a Christian community developer friend, "we can't let the perfect become the enemy of the good." I believe your illustration of Points A, B, and C can slide into this attitude. To think that everyone is going to get to A, in my humble opinion, is holding an opinion that Jesus himself demonstrate. There will always be wheat and tares...even in the Church. But if "C" is a better place to be, we should at least strive for that versus staying stuck in "B." The Spirit blows where it blows... To me, this is "why we should accept" B (your words).</br><br></br><br>(3) If this isn't the point, to move those in B towards A, then what is? I'm sure some would say "to be faithful." Who could disagree with that? But what are the desired results of our faithfulness? That is what I'm asking.</br><br></br><br>The model of "parochial theology" that I proposed is new to me and just one idea. I would love to hear others chime in with how they see this playing out. This is a great conversation, and a very needed one!</br>Michael ClineMon, 03 Mar 2008 08:41:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_church_and_the_radicals_match_made_in_heaven/#comment-1313566For sake of time this morning, I just want to respond a bit in bullet point format. Not as esthetically pleasing, but it will get the job done (Sorry, my American pragmatism is showing). I really appreciate these push-backs though, and I'd like to think this has been a constructive conversation to more people than just myself.<br><br>(1) I'm not in the "co-op always equals evil" club. Some co-opting results in absolute dissolution and negation of significance--this is to be avoided at all costs. But this isn't always the case. It's not nearly so black and white, where co-op = wrong and remaining absolutely distinct = right. That is one main reason I wrote this post. I'm wrestling with the spectrum too, but I think it exists. <br><br>(2) To borrow a popular phrase from a Christian community developer friend, "we can't let the perfect become the enemy of the good." I believe your illustration of Points A, B, and C can slide into this attitude. To think that everyone is going to get to A, in my humble opinion, is holding an opinion that Jesus himself demonstrate. There will always be wheat and tares...even in the Church. But if "C" is a better place to be, we should at least strive for that versus staying stuck in "B." The Spirit blows where it blows... To me, this is "why we should accept" B (your words).<br><br>(3) If this isn't the point, to move those in B towards A, then what is? I'm sure some would say "to be faithful." Who could disagree with that? But what are the desired results of our faithfulness? That is what I'm asking.<br><br>The model of "parochial theology" that I proposed is new to me and just one idea. I would love to hear others chime in with how they see this playing out. This is a great conversation, and a very needed one!Michael ClineMon, 03 Mar 2008 09:41:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297025For sake of time this morning, I just want to respond a bit in bullet point format. Not as esthetically pleasing, but it will get the job done (Sorry, my American pragmatism is showing). I really appreciate these push-backs though, and I'd like to think this has been a constructive conversation to more people than just myself.<br><br>(1) I'm not in the "co-op always equals evil" club. Some co-opting results in absolute dissolution and negation of significance--this is to be avoided at all costs. But this isn't always the case. It's not nearly so black and white, where co-op = wrong and remaining absolutely distinct = right. That is one main reason I wrote this post. I'm wrestling with the spectrum too, but I think it exists.<br><br>(2) To borrow a popular phrase from a Christian community developer friend, "we can't let the perfect become the enemy of the good." I believe your illustration of Points A, B, and C can slide into this attitude. To think that everyone is going to get to A, in my humble opinion, is holding an opinion that Jesus himself demonstrate. There will always be wheat and tares...even in the Church. But if "C" is a better place to be, we should at least strive for that versus staying stuck in "B." The Spirit blows where it blows... To me, this is "why we should accept" B (your words).<br><br>(3) If this isn't the point, to move those in B towards A, then what is? I'm sure some would say "to be faithful." Who could disagree with that? But what are the desired results of our faithfulness? That is what I'm asking.<br><br>The model of "parochial theology" that I proposed is new to me and just one idea. I would love to hear others chime in with how they see this playing out. This is a great conversation, and a very needed one!Michael ClineMon, 03 Mar 2008 09:41:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297043In regards to point #2 made above, I meant to say that "to think that everyone is going to get to A, in my humble opinion, is holding an opinion that Jesus himself DID NOT demonstrate."<br></br><br>One of these days I'll proof read before submitting</br>Michael ClineMon, 03 Mar 2008 11:19:10 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_church_and_the_radicals_match_made_in_heaven/#comment-1313567In regards to point #2 made above, I meant to say that "to think that everyone is going to get to A, in my humble opinion, is holding an opinion that Jesus himself DID NOT demonstrate."<br><br>One of these days I'll proof read before submittingMichael ClineMon, 03 Mar 2008 12:19:10 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297026In regards to point #2 made above, I meant to say that "to think that everyone is going to get to A, in my humble opinion, is holding an opinion that Jesus himself DID NOT demonstrate."<br><br>One of these days I'll proof read before submittingMichael ClineMon, 03 Mar 2008 12:19:10 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297048Mark, I personally don't believe you are being arrogant--not the in the least. But this is also because I've spent time with you and gotten a peek inside your world. But if we honestly think for a second that the "shut up and listen" motif is actually going to incite the mainstream to do just that, we are blind to how entrenched the status quo really is. Perception is reality--and when we carry that attitude into the process of revolution, our message will generally fall on deaf ears (even if it is true). <br></br><br>Which you know. But that's why I am here. To give a moderate voice to the cries of revolution. Call me a "sell-out," but that may be what I end up offering the fringe as much as the mainstream. It's not as fun and it won't grab headlines. My articles won't be published all over the place because they won't be controversial enough. But I think it's constructive.</br>Michael ClineTue, 04 Mar 2008 06:57:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_church_and_the_radicals_match_made_in_heaven/#comment-1313570Mark, I personally don't believe you are being arrogant--not the in the least. But this is also because I've spent time with you and gotten a peek inside your world. But if we honestly think for a second that the "shut up and listen" motif is actually going to incite the mainstream to do just that, we are blind to how entrenched the status quo really is. Perception is reality--and when we carry that attitude into the process of revolution, our message will generally fall on deaf ears (even if it is true). <br><br>Which you know. But that's why I am here. To give a moderate voice to the cries of revolution. Call me a "sell-out," but that may be what I end up offering the fringe as much as the mainstream. It's not as fun and it won't grab headlines. My articles won't be published all over the place because they won't be controversial enough. But I think it's constructive.Michael ClineTue, 04 Mar 2008 07:57:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0717/#comment-5297029Mark, I personally don't believe you are being arrogant--not the in the least. But this is also because I've spent time with you and gotten a peek inside your world. But if we honestly think for a second that the "shut up and listen" motif is actually going to incite the mainstream to do just that, we are blind to how entrenched the status quo really is. Perception is reality--and when we carry that attitude into the process of revolution, our message will generally fall on deaf ears (even if it is true).<br><br>Which you know. But that's why I am here. To give a moderate voice to the cries of revolution. Call me a "sell-out," but that may be what I end up offering the fringe as much as the mainstream. It's not as fun and it won't grab headlines. My articles won't be published all over the place because they won't be controversial enough. But I think it's constructive.Michael ClineTue, 04 Mar 2008 07:57:30 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5490/#comment-5297115For "devotional time" yesterday I read a segment from C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" (as package by Richard Foster in his "Spiritual Classics" Devotional). There were times in it where Lewis attaches the natural self with all the hustle and bustle of the day...from the time we wake up to the time we go to sleep, we hear competing voices. The "hurry up and get stuff done" voice is largely our own, the natural self. What we need to do is remind ourselves of who we belong to and who's voice is more important than that one. When this occurs, we can orientate our lives around a entirely other vision and value system. <br></br><br>At the end of the devotional, Foster suggested writing on 3x5 cards "Who am I listening to?" and placing them near the bathroom mirror, the coffee maker, etc...so the first thing I realize when I get out of bed is that their is another voice to hear than the one the world generally offers--the voice that sounds a lot like my own.</br>Michael ClineWed, 05 Mar 2008 08:59:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/get_a_mcjob_sha_na_na_na/#comment-1313652For "devotional time" yesterday I read a segment from C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" (as package by Richard Foster in his "Spiritual Classics" Devotional). There were times in it where Lewis attaches the natural self with all the hustle and bustle of the day...from the time we wake up to the time we go to sleep, we hear competing voices. The "hurry up and get stuff done" voice is largely our own, the natural self. What we need to do is remind ourselves of who we belong to and who's voice is more important than that one. When this occurs, we can orientate our lives around a entirely other vision and value system. <br><br>At the end of the devotional, Foster suggested writing on 3x5 cards "Who am I listening to?" and placing them near the bathroom mirror, the coffee maker, etc...so the first thing I realize when I get out of bed is that their is another voice to hear than the one the world generally offers--the voice that sounds a lot like my own.Michael ClineWed, 05 Mar 2008 09:59:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5490/#comment-5297109For "devotional time" yesterday I read a segment from C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" (as package by Richard Foster in his "Spiritual Classics" Devotional). There were times in it where Lewis attaches the natural self with all the hustle and bustle of the day...from the time we wake up to the time we go to sleep, we hear competing voices. The "hurry up and get stuff done" voice is largely our own, the natural self. What we need to do is remind ourselves of who we belong to and who's voice is more important than that one. When this occurs, we can orientate our lives around a entirely other vision and value system.<br><br>At the end of the devotional, Foster suggested writing on 3x5 cards "Who am I listening to?" and placing them near the bathroom mirror, the coffee maker, etc...so the first thing I realize when I get out of bed is that their is another voice to hear than the one the world generally offers--the voice that sounds a lot like my own.Michael ClineWed, 05 Mar 2008 09:59:07 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_715/#comment-5297217Is this panel going to take place after Claiborne speaks? I saw he was coming on the Bethel website yesterday. I'll be the guy making goofy faces at you while you try to hold your own. :)Michael ClineFri, 07 Mar 2008 17:01:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_3788/#comment-5297200And we all know that the Smurfs, in cooperation with the Teletubbies, are pushing a pro-gay agenda. By association, Tony Jones and Emergent now support homosexual marriage and ordinationMichael ClineFri, 07 Mar 2008 17:10:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/if_you8217re_interested8230/#comment-1313782Is this panel going to take place after Claiborne speaks? I saw he was coming on the Bethel website yesterday. I'll be the guy making goofy faces at you while you try to hold your own. :)Michael ClineFri, 07 Mar 2008 18:01:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_715/#comment-5297210Is this panel going to take place after Claiborne speaks? I saw he was coming on the Bethel website yesterday. I'll be the guy making goofy faces at you while you try to hold your own. :)Michael ClineFri, 07 Mar 2008 18:01:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/tony_jones_to_leave_emergent_village/#comment-1313772And we all know that the Smurfs, in cooperation with the Teletubbies, are pushing a pro-gay agenda. By association, Tony Jones and Emergent now support homosexual marriage and ordinationMichael ClineFri, 07 Mar 2008 18:10:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_3788/#comment-5297189And we all know that the Smurfs, in cooperation with the Teletubbies, are pushing a pro-gay agenda. By association, Tony Jones and Emergent now support homosexual marriage and ordinationMichael ClineFri, 07 Mar 2008 18:10:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/scrambling_the_sacred_and_the_profane_a_random_monday_morning_reflection/#comment-1313856I think it is quite possible that the categories of "profane" and "sacred" do in fact exist when actualized in particular places and times and that to implode them onto each other is to essentially make Christianity unidentifiable. HOWEVER, I think the main question is not whether these paradigms exist, but what does it mean to see the profane and the sacred in the midst of everyday life (or "real life"). <br><br>This is a great piece, Mark.Michael ClineMon, 10 Mar 2008 19:05:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_452/#comment-5297231I think it is quite possible that the categories of "profane" and "sacred" do in fact exist when actualized in particular places and times and that to implode them onto each other is to essentially make Christianity unidentifiable. HOWEVER, I think the main question is not whether these paradigms exist, but what does it mean to see the profane and the sacred in the midst of everyday life (or "real life").<br><br>This is a great piece, Mark.Michael ClineMon, 10 Mar 2008 19:05:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_452/#comment-5297236I think it is quite possible that the categories of "profane" and "sacred" do in fact exist when actualized in particular places and times and that to implode them onto each other is to essentially make Christianity unidentifiable. HOWEVER, I think the main question is not whether these paradigms exist, but what does it mean to see the profane and the sacred in the midst of everyday life (or "real life"). <br></br><br>This is a great piece, Mark.</br>Michael ClineMon, 10 Mar 2008 19:05:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/book_review_jesus_for_president_section_1/#comment-1313976Once again, I missed the gathering. :( Sorry.<br><br>I like the narrative approach you outline here, although I agree that it really bypasses some issues that are naturally raised by inquiring minds. If the authors don't want to go down those roads, that's their prerogative I suppose, but if I handed that first section to most of the Christians I see on a sunday morning, they would have a hard time accepting any of it just because it seems to overlook theodicy and the like. I'm not saying they should throw it all out just because of that, but many wouldn't have the imagination to plug away through the rest of the book--which sounds like the authors point in the first place. Can't wait to hear the rest...Michael ClineWed, 12 Mar 2008 13:16:40 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5247/#comment-5297287Once again, I missed the gathering. :( Sorry.<br><br>I like the narrative approach you outline here, although I agree that it really bypasses some issues that are naturally raised by inquiring minds. If the authors don't want to go down those roads, that's their prerogative I suppose, but if I handed that first section to most of the Christians I see on a sunday morning, they would have a hard time accepting any of it just because it seems to overlook theodicy and the like. I'm not saying they should throw it all out just because of that, but many wouldn't have the imagination to plug away through the rest of the book--which sounds like the authors point in the first place. Can't wait to hear the rest...Michael ClineWed, 12 Mar 2008 13:16:40 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_5247/#comment-5297289Once again, I missed the gathering. :( Sorry.<br></br><br>I like the narrative approach you outline here, although I agree that it really bypasses some issues that are naturally raised by inquiring minds. If the authors don't want to go down those roads, that's their prerogative I suppose, but if I handed that first section to most of the Christians I see on a sunday morning, they would have a hard time accepting any of it just because it seems to overlook theodicy and the like. I'm not saying they should throw it all out just because of that, but many wouldn't have the imagination to plug away through the rest of the book--which sounds like the authors point in the first place. Can't wait to hear the rest...</br>Michael ClineWed, 12 Mar 2008 13:16:40 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/younger_evangelicals_drug_of_choice/#comment-1314041For those easily offended, this link may not be for you.<br><br>But for those who enjoy a good satire and can see the truth behind the laughing, check out "Stuff White People Like #18--Awareness."<br><br><a href="http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/18-awareness/" rel="nofollow">http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/2008/...</a>Michael ClineFri, 14 Mar 2008 11:04:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1554/#comment-5297401For those easily offended, this link may not be for you.<br><br>But for those who enjoy a good satire and can see the truth behind the laughing, check out "Stuff White People Like #18--Awareness."<br><br><a href="http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/18-awareness/" rel="nofollow">http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/2008/...</a>Michael ClineFri, 14 Mar 2008 11:04:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1554/#comment-5297422For those easily offended, this link may not be for you.<br></br><br>But for those who enjoy a good satire and can see the truth behind the laughing, check out "Stuff White People Like #18--Awareness."</br><br></br><br><a href="http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/18-awareness/" rel="nofollow">http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/2008/...</a></br>Michael ClineFri, 14 Mar 2008 11:04:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_8220other8217s8221_bible/#comment-1314079I was going to say, can anyone tell me how to not have a "theological lens?" We need to be aware of our biases, whether inherited through assumed tradition or personal experience, but I don't think we can ever throw them out completely. Besides, our "bias" may be right. Having a "lens" doesn't make us necessarily wrong. Some lens' are better than others.<br><br>Scot Mcknight's new book (not sure if it has hit shelves yet...i don't think it has) has an interesting perspective on hermeneutics. The goal is not to read through tradition, or in spite of tradition, but with tradition by our side to guide us.Michael ClineFri, 14 Mar 2008 11:08:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_764/#comment-5297436I was going to say, can anyone tell me how to not have a "theological lens?" We need to be aware of our biases, whether inherited through assumed tradition or personal experience, but I don't think we can ever throw them out completely. Besides, our "bias" may be right. Having a "lens" doesn't make us necessarily wrong. Some lens' are better than others.<br><br>Scot Mcknight's new book (not sure if it has hit shelves yet...i don't think it has) has an interesting perspective on hermeneutics. The goal is not to read through tradition, or in spite of tradition, but with tradition by our side to guide us.Michael ClineFri, 14 Mar 2008 11:08:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_764/#comment-5297445I was going to say, can anyone tell me how to not have a "theological lens?" We need to be aware of our biases, whether inherited through assumed tradition or personal experience, but I don't think we can ever throw them out completely. Besides, our "bias" may be right. Having a "lens" doesn't make us necessarily wrong. Some lens' are better than others.<br></br><br>Scot Mcknight's new book (not sure if it has hit shelves yet...i don't think it has) has an interesting perspective on hermeneutics. The goal is not to read through tradition, or in spite of tradition, but with tradition by our side to guide us.</br>Michael ClineFri, 14 Mar 2008 11:08:54 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/morning_missive_mark_van_steenwyk_a_hypocrite/#comment-1314096I witnessed this atrocity. Shame on you Mark.Michael ClineSat, 15 Mar 2008 01:46:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_91156/#comment-5297470I witnessed this atrocity. Shame on you Mark.Michael ClineSat, 15 Mar 2008 01:46:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_91156/#comment-5297478I witnessed this atrocity. Shame on you Mark.Michael ClineSat, 15 Mar 2008 01:46:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/younger_evangelicals_drug_of_choice/#comment-1314044I just want to make sure that everyone who reads this post knows that I am not "despising small beginnings" (thanks for the wake up call Emily), In many ways, I am just as much a part of the problem as I am the solution. I hardly know my neighbors names. I sign up on Facebook for a lot of the gimmicky branding of social justice causes. I even have the html badge on my blog. <br><br>We do have to begin small. But we need to be mindful of the coopting and the branding that takes place that allows us to sign up without ever picking up our feet.Michael ClineMon, 17 Mar 2008 08:46:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1554/#comment-5297405I just want to make sure that everyone who reads this post knows that I am not "despising small beginnings" (thanks for the wake up call Emily), In many ways, I am just as much a part of the problem as I am the solution. I hardly know my neighbors names. I sign up on Facebook for a lot of the gimmicky branding of social justice causes. I even have the html badge on my blog.<br><br>We do have to begin small. But we need to be mindful of the coopting and the branding that takes place that allows us to sign up without ever picking up our feet.Michael ClineMon, 17 Mar 2008 08:46:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1554/#comment-5297429I just want to make sure that everyone who reads this post knows that I am not "despising small beginnings" (thanks for the wake up call Emily), In many ways, I am just as much a part of the problem as I am the solution. I hardly know my neighbors names. I sign up on Facebook for a lot of the gimmicky branding of social justice causes. I even have the html badge on my blog. <br></br><br>We do have to begin small. But we need to be mindful of the coopting and the branding that takes place that allows us to sign up without ever picking up our feet.</br>Michael ClineMon, 17 Mar 2008 08:46:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/another_song_about_me/#comment-1314180I think some of the individulistic songs are ok, especially if they help people stand before God as an individual during worship. What we need is a balance. As usual, it's not either/or here, but both/and. Some songs should be thrown out all together to achieve what you are aiming at, but perhaps some of the older songs we tend to rail on actually do serve a purpose.<br><br>The first step would be to use the imagination and create songs in particular contexts rather than always playing the latest Chris Tomlin track or David Crowder rift. These songs are good, but that's not the point. I may be in the minority, but I actually think the last 10 years have brought about a decent change in worship lyrics and emphasis that wasn't there a decade or so ago. But there is still room to grow, and I think it starts with local artists and local church families coming together to create a worship environment/music that is contextual and relevant to their particular fold.Michael ClineTue, 18 Mar 2008 15:15:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_944/#comment-5297518I think some of the individulistic songs are ok, especially if they help people stand before God as an individual during worship. What we need is a balance. As usual, it's not either/or here, but both/and. Some songs should be thrown out all together to achieve what you are aiming at, but perhaps some of the older songs we tend to rail on actually do serve a purpose.<br><br>The first step would be to use the imagination and create songs in particular contexts rather than always playing the latest Chris Tomlin track or David Crowder rift. These songs are good, but that's not the point. I may be in the minority, but I actually think the last 10 years have brought about a decent change in worship lyrics and emphasis that wasn't there a decade or so ago. But there is still room to grow, and I think it starts with local artists and local church families coming together to create a worship environment/music that is contextual and relevant to their particular fold.Michael ClineTue, 18 Mar 2008 15:15:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_944/#comment-5297534I think some of the individulistic songs are ok, especially if they help people stand before God as an individual during worship. What we need is a balance. As usual, it's not either/or here, but both/and. Some songs should be thrown out all together to achieve what you are aiming at, but perhaps some of the older songs we tend to rail on actually do serve a purpose.<br></br><br>The first step would be to use the imagination and create songs in particular contexts rather than always playing the latest Chris Tomlin track or David Crowder rift. These songs are good, but that's not the point. I may be in the minority, but I actually think the last 10 years have brought about a decent change in worship lyrics and emphasis that wasn't there a decade or so ago. But there is still room to grow, and I think it starts with local artists and local church families coming together to create a worship environment/music that is contextual and relevant to their particular fold.</br>Michael ClineTue, 18 Mar 2008 15:15:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/another_song_about_me/#comment-1314186Danny, not to plug my own writing, but did you check out the piece I did a few weeks back about the "fringe" vs. the "mainstream?" If not, check out the discussion between Mark and myself (mostly, with a few others thrown in as well). We hit on some of the things you are trying to think through and figure out. Of course, we didn't come up with an answer, that would be too easy!Michael ClineTue, 18 Mar 2008 17:12:13 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_944/#comment-5297527Danny, not to plug my own writing, but did you check out the piece I did a few weeks back about the "fringe" vs. the "mainstream?" If not, check out the discussion between Mark and myself (mostly, with a few others thrown in as well). We hit on some of the things you are trying to think through and figure out. Of course, we didn't come up with an answer, that would be too easy!Michael ClineTue, 18 Mar 2008 17:12:13 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_944/#comment-5297537Danny, not to plug my own writing, but did you check out the piece I did a few weeks back about the "fringe" vs. the "mainstream?" If not, check out the discussion between Mark and myself (mostly, with a few others thrown in as well). We hit on some of the things you are trying to think through and figure out. Of course, we didn't come up with an answer, that would be too easy!Michael ClineTue, 18 Mar 2008 17:12:13 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_scandal_of_the_resurrection/#comment-5297557Oh Anselm, what did you do!<br></br><br>I've been thinking a lot about this in accordance with David Fitch's last few posts. We need to find a way (particularly in the anabaptist circles) to join the hands of Abelard, Anselm, and a more Christus Victor view of the atonement. How do we do this? Any helps out there?</br>Michael ClineWed, 19 Mar 2008 10:58:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_scandal_of_easter_30/#comment-244169Oh Anselm, what did you do!<br><br>I've been thinking a lot about this in accordance with David Fitch's last few posts. We need to find a way (particularly in the anabaptist circles) to join the hands of Abelard, Anselm, and a more Christus Victor view of the atonement. How do we do this? Any helps out there?Michael ClineWed, 19 Mar 2008 10:58:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_60751/#comment-5297547What candy exactly are we talking here?Michael ClineWed, 19 Mar 2008 11:05:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/choosing_barabbas/#comment-5297561"Choosing Barabbas by reducing the power of the Resurrection to an escape from the messiness of an embodied faith."<br></br><br>By far my favorite line.</br>Michael ClineThu, 20 Mar 2008 14:16:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/virginia_church_not_in_virginia/#comment-5297573I think it's great and came off exactly how you were wanting it to. Mark and I were cracking up when we first read this post. One of the best satire's in awhile.Michael ClineFri, 21 Mar 2008 16:57:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/revolution_is_in_the_details/#comment-5297577"Bigness is not badness necessarily..."<br></br><br>I would totally agree Nathanael. My problem is not so much the corporations that get to benefit from our lack of creativity as demonstrate by the Catholic school rule, but the very lack of creativity as a whole. It's disappointing and robs the children and family structure of imagination. It's like the family picnic or church potluck where everyone brings Original Recipe KFC. Bland.</br><br></br><br>Coldfire (It's Danny isn't it?), I haven't read much of Balthasar (shame on me). Sounds like N.T. Wright's narrative take (and many others) but with musical terminology. Am I right?</br>Michael ClineSun, 23 Mar 2008 22:38:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/revolution_is_in_the_details/#comment-5297578nathanael, you open up an interesting discussion about the use of terms like "pagan" for me. Perhaps a post on that kind of rhetoric would be fun one of these days. Particularly that "pagans don't have anything else to live for except consumerism." Hmm...Michael ClineSun, 23 Mar 2008 22:39:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/welcome_to_the_church_of_consumer_jesus/#comment-5297595The imagery of the first three lines makes me nauseous, but that doesn't make it untrue.Michael ClineMon, 24 Mar 2008 16:22:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_79457/#comment-5297609I read your post but didn't want to touch it unless I could log in under an enemies alias--there was no where for those comments to go but towards ugliness. I'm not saying you are a white supremacist or even that the point of your post was untrue, but after reading a few other posts on there and knowing the kind of place YAR has been in the past, I knew that was going to go down.Michael ClineMon, 24 Mar 2008 16:25:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_79457/#comment-5297610The last few posts over at YAR have forced me to remove it from my blogroll. Not my cup of tea and the rhetoric needs a healthy dose of civility.Michael ClineMon, 24 Mar 2008 16:26:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/revolution_is_in_the_details/#comment-5297582I believe the football analogy for this phenomenon is what my friend called "out-punting my coverage." <br></br><br>You might as well marry upward.</br>Michael ClineMon, 24 Mar 2008 16:31:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/book_review_jesus_goes_to_church/#comment-5297644Just what I needed to read during my evangelism for discipleship class. Freakin' hilarious. I appreciate the well balanced critique as well. Who knew that almost all models of "church" have issues?Michael ClineTue, 25 Mar 2008 16:11:09 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/repentance_and_subversion/#comment-5297643<i>"...my spirituality is tied up in my daily patterns of economics, relationships, consumption, and time allocation."</i><br></br><br>So true. In trying to be a bridge builder between like-minded "radical disciples" and many in the mainstream church, this has to be the way we approach it if we are ever going to get heard. Themes like repentance, everyday spirituality (basically, discipleship)...these are buzzwords that people can get behind that have worked for years. That way it won't come off like some new snazzy "emergent" plug.</br><br></br><br>I love this article. It's just not getting as much commenting because it's so thorough that there's not a lot left to say. Great stuff!</br>Michael ClineWed, 26 Mar 2008 14:24:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_465/#comment-5297658Not that Mike Cline kid! He's so young and green. And as has been pointed out elsewhere on this very site, he isn't even good looking enough for his own wife.Michael ClineWed, 26 Mar 2008 14:30:16 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_79457/#comment-5297626I'm not so sure time is as linear as we make it out to be. I mean, we certainly experience "today" as if there was no far off "yesterday," but that doesn't mean that the past doesn't circle around to effecting today. The "somebody" who screwed up hundreds of years ago is often someone I'm connected to on some level, even if it is only as part of the "great cloud of witness" like Hebrews talks about. I'm not so sure we can separate the sins of the present and the sins of the past so easily. But it's a hard topic Dave. And I appreciate your honestyMichael ClineWed, 26 Mar 2008 18:58:09 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christian_social_mobility/#comment-5297661Daniel,<br></br><br>First, I love your last paragraph! The "recasting of values" across the whole zoning district of the Church is certainly what I think many of us are trying to do here. But it takes such imagination and creativity to lift ourselves up long enough to see past the fortress of Christendom that we've created (whether consciously or unconsciously). </br><br></br><br>Second, I would never suggest that a homeless man should practice downward social mobility. What I am suggesting is that the Church create a space in which the privileged could explore downward mobility, while at the same time, the built in structures of the Church have a way to lift up those at the bottom. That's why I gave St. Antony and St. Francis as examples of downward mobility and not American Indians for example. The question is how do we do this and is it possible within the confines of the Church without bowing to social legislation and the like. (I read in your "across zoning districts" that you think it will take a cooperation between the Church and social organizations--does this include the State?)</br><br></br><br>I'm pushing for open, fluid movement within the Body, so the upside-down world Jesus presents to His listeners can be seen in the local church.</br>Michael ClineFri, 28 Mar 2008 09:07:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christian_social_mobility/#comment-5297665Maria, these are some of the ideas I've been throwing around in my head. How does the structure and all the unspoken, built in "necessities" (seminary trained pastor, vocal expertise, economic strengths of board members, etc...) contribute to the lack of mobility in the Church? It's a hard question, because I'm a trained seminarian, so what is my role in making this mountain a little more flat? Once I demolish the hill, I may not have a job. Which is fine, if I didn't have a family to support and educational debt to take care of. But you are getting around to the root of what I was aiming at. So thank you for pressing into the meat a bit.Michael ClineFri, 28 Mar 2008 18:24:44 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christian_social_mobility/#comment-5297667Joel, your comment does not come off as nasty, but as one who is wrestling with the deep truths of Scripture and the way of Jesus. I appreciate your insight!<br></br><br>My comment was meant to conjure up these deep thoughts and to allow people to really wrestle with the implications that "demolishing the hill" might carry. In no way do I think my responsibility to my family should diminish my sacrificial love.</br>Michael ClineMon, 31 Mar 2008 09:09:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christian_social_mobility/#comment-5297672I have that book on my shelf and should probably get around to reading it. I've read some of Sweet's other stuff, so I suspect it is along the same line. Do you have an opinion as to which "tradition is worth anchoring into" and which traditions are "barnacles?" Would love to hear it!Michael ClineMon, 31 Mar 2008 09:12:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/deal_or_no_deal/#comment-5297698Oops. Our mistake. I'll clean it up. Thanks for the catch.Michael ClineMon, 31 Mar 2008 16:02:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2972/#comment-5297744I just read TSK's (Andrew Jones) post on all the dust being raised by MacArthur and company over "contextualization" (their view is that it isn't necessary and that Paul didn't ever do it...which...is just crazy talk.)<br><a href="http://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.com/tallskinnykiwi/2008/04/context-does--1.html" rel="nofollow">http://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.com/tallskinnykiw...</a></br>Michael ClineWed, 02 Apr 2008 16:07:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/liturgical_persistence_and_ecclesial_resistance/#comment-5297811Geoff, thanks for this initial sound off. I'm eager to hear where this can go,although I am little jealous that you are going to get the high-church advocate title on JM. I have affinities as well for the liturgical model of worship and have been exploring this in my own thoughts but have never been able to put it together in a substantial post. It is thinkers like Hauerwas and Cavanaugh that have pushed me to this area. The trickiest place for me is to embrace liturgical rhythms while being an active member in a church that for the most part does not (although every church has a "liturgy," just perhaps not a sustained one--which is what you are going to help us with). Eager to hear the rest!Michael ClineWed, 09 Apr 2008 08:17:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/driving_my_life_away_22/#comment-5297801Again, I'm stuck between two "good options." On on hand, there doesn't seem to be anything "wrong" about wanting to spend time with family and friends...to reconnect with old memories and to live "life together" with people who are not necessarily in my closest proximity. Jesus wouldn't mind this would he? Love is the aim, genuine friendship is the goal, etc...<br></br><br>On the other hand, our traveling to make this happen can be destructive and irresponsible. Jesus wouldn't want this would he? Pollution of the planet, over consuming of resources, and contributing our fair share to the plight of the poor (almost all environmental and economic consumption falls harder on the poor) can't be something the Godhead celebrates. So something has to give. Or we have to find a "middle way".</br><br></br><br>Perhaps Jesus redefines friends and family in such a way that allows us to not feel guilty or lonely when we can't be with our immediate family...because perhaps our "immediate family" has been completely transformed when we encounter the gospel in such a way that our neighbor, in theory and proximity, becomes our new "family." Just thinking out loud...</br>Michael ClineWed, 09 Apr 2008 08:26:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/why_can8217t_you_be/#comment-5297740Personally, I find the poem very biting, and in that regard, exactly what we need to read sometimes. To judge the post on whether or not it qualifies as "good poetry" is beside the point. Last time I checked, JM was not a publishing house for poetry, but a hodge-podge collective of like-minded Jesus lovers who want to contribute to a deep conversation about what it could look like to be the Church in an increasingly globalized postmodern world. Adam's lines do us a great thing by diverting our attention to the methods of our "charity" and the inner angst and pride that can lie deep within all of us. <br></br><br>If you have something to contribute to the conversation, the editorial team would love to read it, but regardless, what ever happened to a sense of reading with the intent of being edified. An Augustinian "hermeneutic of love" would go a long way on JM (and in the rest of the blogosphere), not only to trace love's path throughout whatever it is we are reading, but to respond in a loving manner as well. </br><br></br><br>Perhaps what irks me the most about some of these comments is that I personally asked Adam to contribute. I did this with knowledge of his writings skills and previous thoughts, but more importantly, with knowledge of his person--I believe him to be a man of God and a seeker after Jesus' way with the least of these in a manner that many of us do not hold a candle to. Please remember that behind this "author bios" are people--otherwise, we are going to run off anyone who may have something worthwhile to contribute. After reading some of the comments in regards to Adam's post, I will be hesitant to ask any more of my colleagues to write.</br>Michael ClineWed, 09 Apr 2008 15:07:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/logan_laituri_courageous_coward/#comment-5297792The middle of your reply (and a bit of the ending) gets at the biblical/theological heart of the matter, but the rest of your post is picking on an aspect of Logan's that you can't possibly discern--his character. Unless you have some sort of access to his heart and can clearly identify his motives (which you can't), we have to refrain from attacks such as "he is no man of honor...he is trying to financially gain from his dishonor." <br></br><br>People who are trying to financial gain from their actions rarely go into the non-profit sector. I'm not saying you can't make money founding a non-profit organization, but it seems an unlikely choice when so many other options are available. He would've made more money by climbing the military ladder than taking time out to talk with us on Jesus Manifesto.</br>Michael ClineWed, 09 Apr 2008 18:32:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/logan_laituri_courageous_coward/#comment-5297793Just so its clear, my response was to JT. Apparently joel posted while I was typing and my response fell under his thoughts.Michael ClineWed, 09 Apr 2008 18:34:22 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_beauty_of_subjectivity/#comment-5297829Growing up in the realm of what has been loosely defined as "conservative evangelicalism," I was conditioned to abhor the destructive force of the evil demon "subjectivity." The last few years have been a journey of retracing my steps, figuring out where I've come from, and moving towards where I feel God leading. The ironic thing about all of this is that a "personal relationship" is at the heart of evangelicalism, and yet, stringent appeals to <br>"objectivity" render the relationship between God and the individual man stiff and cold. Subjectivity is indeed a beautiful thing, and along with many postmodern and postevangelical thinkers, I would argue that "objectivity" is a mythical state that can never be reached--and thank God! For it is that subjectivity that allows God to speak to the individual, and yet never discredits the community.</br>Michael ClineWed, 09 Apr 2008 21:42:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/church_on_the_underground/#comment-5297837Joet, are you a Londoner? I would love to get an inside scoop about the price hiking and how that is affecting the tube's riders. The Oyster Card (spelling?) seems to have promise, as it lowers travel rates over the long haul. If you have some insider info, I'd love to hear it. But my empirical observations led me to believe that the "poor" were using the Tube along with the rest of the London. This was even more noticeable when utilizing the city bus system (which both the Tube tickets and Oyster Card support). Perhaps my eyes failed me.Michael ClineThu, 10 Apr 2008 08:27:55 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/church_on_the_underground/#comment-5297840Thanks for the scoop.<br></br><br>Odd how still here in America, taking any public transit system is considered largely "for the poor." That was the myth I was trying to deconstruct.Thanks for your help though in clarifying the issue.</br><br></br><br>What do you think about the idea of church being a place where we create space to encounter the Other (both meaning God, and our neighbors)? Let's try to put aside my apparent mistake in including poor people as typical of the Tube and get to the deeper stuff in the post.</br>Michael ClineThu, 10 Apr 2008 10:27:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/emerging_middle_aged_women/#comment-5297873Being a man, I don't want to presume to know what justagirl is going through, but I have also at times wanted to just ditch the local church (and sometimes even the big "c" Church) for another avenue. There was a pretty decent post on Geez about "why to stay in church", written from a realistic, alternative perspective. But before just posting a link, would any woman that has found themselves in a similar spot want to share their story and wisdom for justagirl? Kimberly, beyondwords?Michael ClineTue, 15 Apr 2008 14:34:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/emerging_middle_aged_women_27/#comment-338887Being a man, I don't want to presume to know what justagirl is going through, but I have also at times wanted to just ditch the local church (and sometimes even the big "c" Church) for another avenue. There was a pretty decent post on Geez about "why to stay in church", written from a realistic, alternative perspective. But before just posting a link, would any woman that has found themselves in a similar spot want to share their story and wisdom for justagirl? Kimberly, beyondwords?Michael ClineTue, 15 Apr 2008 14:34:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/draft/#comment-5299818I've heard it said (I'm sure it's attributed to a number of voices) t"hat if God does not eventually destroy the United States, he will have to go back and apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah. "<br></br><br>Thanks for your balanced look at Tibetan Buddhism as well. I've been blown away by media's glaring bias towards the religion and even the overlooking of the oppressive nature of Buddhism within emerging Christian circles as well. Even though I've often said "that if I wasn't a Christian, I'd be a Buddhist", we have to see the omissions and errors of that system as well. Again, thank you.</br>Michael ClineTue, 15 Apr 2008 16:53:00 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/emerging_middle_aged_women/#comment-5297876I have Sanders' book in my "to read" pile. Thanks for giving me a nudge. It sounds a lot like Barbara Brown Taylor's "Leaving Church" (except she was a former pastor and it a bit more enthusiastic about her leaving). Ever read it?Michael ClineTue, 15 Apr 2008 19:20:11 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/draft/#comment-5299831That's an interesting take. I don't think Kimberly was trying to describe all streams of Buddhist thought, of which there are many, just like any other religion including Christianity. She is not a Buddhist expert (If you are Kimberly, feel free to correct me). Maybe we should all read up on Buddhism a bit more. We appreciate your take on it and thanks for the corrections where needed.Michael ClineWed, 16 Apr 2008 16:29:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/draft/#comment-5299821(1) If we hide behind God's omniscience and sovereignty to the point that we never wrestle with this life or its apparent injustices, we do little towards being transformed into Christ-likeness.<br></br><br>(2) I'm not implying that God should literally apologize. You are missing the point. The point is that the U.S. is in just as bad of a spot (or perhaps even worse) as Sodom and Gomorrah. There have actually been studies done on the U.S. when it comes to sexual sins, social injustices, murder, etc... that demonstrate its relationship to those ancient cities. Don't dismiss the point by playing a sovereignty trump card.</br>Michael ClineThu, 17 Apr 2008 09:35:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christianity8217s_new_kool_aid/#comment-5297913To nip this in the bud and make sure it doesn't get out of hand, let me state again that not everyone who votes is a blind follower or zombie. I also don't think that most voters consciously ask for politicians to do "their share of the work"--I just see it as the primary historic example and fear we will end up there once again. If not, praise God. Perhaps this conversation can push in a direction to make sure that doesn't happen this time-- you with your vote, and me with my non-vote cynicism :)<br></br><br>I'm not abdicating a utopian Church. History has also shown us where that leads. But I also hear your critique and can tell you are a well informed voter of the highest regard. Thanks for your thoughts and just know that I am continually trying to flesh out what the Church's role in all of this should be. I'm in a constant state of formation on the topic. In the meantime, feel free to spit out my drink offering :)</br>Michael ClineThu, 17 Apr 2008 11:03:28 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christianity8217s_new_kool_aid/#comment-5297919Wess, thanks for stopping in. I had just emailed you I think when you were posting over here. How funny!<br></br><br>I can see that most of the responses to this post are going to be against my "implying" of Jonestown as parallel with the names above (or with anyone else who votes for Obama). I'll concede that the language use was perhaps not the best. I am no making a connection between Obama's personhood and Jim Jones' legacy. "Drink the kool aid" is a phrase that was actually around before Jonestown if my 20 minute research is correct. Words have meaning in context. The context in this case also includes several disclaimers. Readers may see this as a cop out or an impossible relationship, but it's still in the post. </br><br></br><br>I appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt with the historic research. As much as I would love to give dates and names, this is a e-zine/blog post, and like you, I'm enrolled in a degree program as well. Maybe this summer I'll spend some time looking up some historic research to back my arguments.</br><br></br><br>I like where Zizek is going here. I'll definitely take that into consideration. I'm not proposing that every word and every idea that I am presenting in this post is "the opinion" to hold. I, again like you, am taking a risk simply by writing where I stand and the view I have from here. More importantly, I'm completely open for criticism and will take lumps from well thought out folk like yourself. I am quite wiling to be "voted out" by my readers as well. Always reforming...</br>Michael ClineThu, 17 Apr 2008 12:14:16 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christianity8217s_new_kool_aid/#comment-5297920As far as the Marxist language is concerned, please know that I am also not inferring that you (Wess) or any of the other names are Marxist simply by voting for Obama (or anyone else). Again, I thought I made that clear, but if not, I apologize. The "Marxist" language was necessary in order to set up the idea and thought of Ellul. Ellul saw Marxism gaining a foothold in the culture predominantly because of the failure of centuries of Christianity to address the social issues of the day. So where the Church failed, the Marxist regime gained. This is one instance of the historic process I'm trying to establish as possibly reoccurring if we are not CAREFUL....which apparently you are. And kudos to you for being so.Michael ClineThu, 17 Apr 2008 12:21:02 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christianity8217s_new_kool_aid/#comment-5297945It may not be hero worship for you Jonathan, and so if that is the case, I applaud your thoughtful vote. But the people that are really taking it to my post may not represent our entire readership either. Most of our readers, in my opinion, are quite informed on the issues and have painstakingly figured out where they lie in the anarchist-democratic spectrum. We aren't all going to agree, especially when there is such a wide readership. If my words do not apply to you in any way, then you were not my intended audience. <br></br><br>And while I'm not linking the above mentioned names (or yourself) with hero worship, there has definitely been scenes and signs of this occurring in regards to Obama (or Hilary, or Ron Paul, etc...). It's nearly impossible to walk on a college (or seminary) campus and publically proclaim that you are not voting for Obama. Something tells me that if I had written this post, linking Jim Jones with the Clintons, the mixed bag of responses would be very different and from an entirely different crowd--yet probably saying the same things. But that is partly my point.</br>Michael ClineThu, 17 Apr 2008 14:01:55 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christianity8217s_new_kool_aid/#comment-5297949Shawn, I think this is very well stated. I too believe the Empire is way bigger than we realize and that it is impossible to "opt out" at any real level. I am not even beginning to imply that my "non-vote" is an act of spiritual opting out. But I do see it as a plausible prophetic action. That is not to say that it can stop there and that I can rest on my non voting stance just as snuggly as those who vote can rest on their participation in the process. Neither act is complete in ushering the Kingdom amidst our daily lives by itself. I take slight offense of those on here who have taken the idiom of "drinking the kool-aid" and turned it around on me, as if I was being malicious in my initial intent, so it's ok to fire back at me. All I can say is that in no way was I trying to be malicious. My intentions were to raise questions, yes, and perhaps even challenge a few assumptions. If I hurt people in the process, I apologize. <br>P.S. I love you too.</br>Michael ClineThu, 17 Apr 2008 14:10:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christianity8217s_new_kool_aid/#comment-5297931Then apparently anyone born before the invention of democracy was "unchristian." I can respect the human sacrifice of so many of our ancestors (and my own family and best friend by the way) without identifying their sacrifice on the same level as Jesus'--which is what I think we often try to do in these discussions. In no direct way is the autonomous freedom that America strives for equivalent to the freedom before God that I now have due to Christ's life, death, and continuing presence.Michael ClineThu, 17 Apr 2008 14:15:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christianity8217s_new_kool_aid/#comment-5297953You may be right. I may not need to apologize just to keep the peace and allow everyone to sleep at night. But I may "need" to do so in order to practice the spiritual discipline of humility. I've touched on really safe topics most my short days here at JM. I thought it was time to branch out a bit and take a chance. In the meantime, I'm going to use the criticism as a spiritual avenue for grace and knowledge. In a lot of ways, JM represents a very real community to me. I submit to that community when I apologize.<br></br><br>The names...yeah that may have been a bad call. The jury is still out, but so far, I should have left them out. But then, what would I have done for a lead in the rest of the post? hehe</br>Michael ClineThu, 17 Apr 2008 14:42:27 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/draft/#comment-5299847Just for my own benefit, where would you place me on the spectrum of hermeneutics based on my responses so far? I'm a little confused where you are going here and want to make sure I understand before responding further. And then, for a fun game of association, tell me who are your favorite model readers of this postmodern response that you embody?Michael ClineThu, 17 Apr 2008 14:52:11 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/draft/#comment-5299854Let it be so Kimberly.<br></br><br>What a great thing to read while ducking out from my bomb shelter over at my post. :)</br>Michael ClineThu, 17 Apr 2008 16:05:08 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christianity8217s_new_kool_aid/#comment-5297955I think you are right on here, although I'd love to hear from an African American voice to see if our perceptions line up with their everyday reality. What I see happening by many Christian voters is an act of penance--they've been one issue voters (mainly abortion) for so long to the detriment of other causes...groups like Sojourners come in and finally tear them from this style of thinking and voting and social engagement...and then in an act of repentance, they get on the Obama train (or any other governmental project) to show they they have come of age and are ready to shed their myopic vision. <br></br><br>I'm just worried the vision hasn't grown any larger, just focused in a new area.</br>Michael ClineSat, 19 Apr 2008 11:36:26 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/interview_becky_garrison_satirist/#comment-5297990There is a large group of us feisty twentysomethings that are trying, as Cone suggests, "to do theology that moves out of the academy and impacts the person in the pew." But there's been movements of that just as often as there has been "rummage sales." Who knows, maybe this sale will garner enough profits to make a more permanent dent in the Ecclesia (or ecclesiola if you are so more inclined).<br></br><br>Thanks for your thoughts Becky. Stuck-in-the-muds like myself need people like you.</br>Michael ClineSat, 19 Apr 2008 12:06:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christianity8217s_new_kool_aid/#comment-5297963VanSkammper,<br></br><br>Do you read in my post that I am somehow endorsing the idealist Marxist slogans? If so, I either wrote this worse than I thought or you missed a few lines. I think we are actually in agreement on Obama and how important Ellul's thoughts are for our times (which is why I used him.) If' I'm being honest, the first paragraph of your response leaves me as confused as you probably were after reading my post.</br>Michael ClineSun, 20 Apr 2008 08:55:21 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/interview_becky_garrison_satirist/#comment-5297997Sorry Andrew. I think some a lot of the regular readers of JM ate some bad Mexican or something. It has been a war zone all week.Michael ClineSun, 20 Apr 2008 09:01:05 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christianity8217s_new_kool_aid/#comment-5297965I just presented in the way that Ellul did in his essay. Sorry if it wasn't your flavor..it was his not mine. :)<br>The Marxist slogans are seductive--that is the point! So are Obama's speeches or any other politician for that matter. Communism promised what Christianity failed to do. I'm not saying Communism worked, because it never has throughout all of history, but what I am saying is that, in principle, Communism offered to fix what the Church continued to only mock. How do you think Communism got it's start? By being unappealing? I think you are completely misreading what I am saying here.</br>Michael ClineSun, 20 Apr 2008 18:51:16 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/christianity8217s_new_kool_aid/#comment-5297966The truth is that Communism leaves societies crippled and mangled. I'm not dumbing that down, not in the least. I'm merely making the point that, like Communism, all politicians tend to cash in on promising ends that other means haven't been able to create. Marxism failed. But in my opinion, so will Democracy if our vision in the Kingdom of God.Michael ClineSun, 20 Apr 2008 18:53:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_beginning_of_one_life_the_end_of_another/#comment-5297987Mark, you know my hermeneutics doesn't let me buy the "prohibitions against the consumption of alcohol don't appear in Scripture" and simply leave it at that. I think we all hold ourselves to higher standards that are not found in Scripture in plenty of other areas. Scripture is not an exhaustive list of do's and dont's and I think we would agree that there is somewhat of an ethical projective arc in Scripture-- i.e. slavery, polygamy, women's rights, etc... <br></br><br>Regardless, this has gotten out of hand on a beautiful post. "And so, we are a marginal group in a marginal place following a marginal Jesus...For us, change happens, at least primarily, across the table..."</br><br></br><br>BEAUTIFUL</br>Michael ClineMon, 21 Apr 2008 08:49:11 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/jonah_on_climate_change_30/#comment-5298032My bad Joe. Thanks for the submission despite my faulty editing job.Michael ClineMon, 21 Apr 2008 11:04:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/jonah_on_climate_change_30/#comment-5298036While I agree that our over consumption and rich lifestyles are going to have to come to a reality check, I also think the idea that "God is in control" is a good thought. Not as an way to numb us or prevent us from action, but as a corrective to the doomsday spitters that tend to make people fear the sky is falling in a way that rsults in nothing but panic. Fear can make us as incapable of change as much as anything. <br></br><br>With all that said, I saw a diagram on flickr that had all the many little ways we can help reduce our carbon footprint, either by consuming less, or by living alternatively. I'll find a link.</br>Michael ClineMon, 21 Apr 2008 11:08:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/jonah_on_climate_change_30/#comment-5298040Agreed.Michael ClineMon, 21 Apr 2008 12:04:35 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/jonah_on_climate_change_30/#comment-5298045A really small thing my wife and I have tried to get into the habit of doing is reusing bags (preferably paper) from the grocery store for future shopping trips. Some chains even offer recycled felt-like bags to use. You look weird and sometimes you can't carry as much, but all good change requires sacrifice, no matter how small. A friend of mine (Adam Thada- he's posted on here once before) even made some "bags" out of an old pair of denim jeans.Michael ClineMon, 21 Apr 2008 12:58:58 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/expelled_an_opportunity_lost/#comment-5298022In my first read through, I'll admit that I couldn't get past the idea that science "tells us what is." Michael Polanyi's work on the role of human assumptions and fallible commitments in an equally fallible "scientific method" has doomed me to putting as much cynicism into my understanding of science as anything else.<br></br><br>But I knew that you were not endorsing some objective scientific method. You've proven too smart for that in the past. :) Looking forward to seeing the movie. I wonder if Netflix will make it available.</br>Michael ClineTue, 22 Apr 2008 09:27:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_faith_of_our_fathers/#comment-5298071I'll be in the minority on JM on this one, but I can take it. :) Being a "theological studies" major in seminary, I obviously place a huge chunk of my time and energy into babbling about "hypostasis or homosexuality or hermeneutics..." but its' not because I think I have it all figured out or because I think we will all agree-- it's just that I think how we conceptualize God's character is the single most important factor in how we will relate to Him, and thereby the "missio dei." All of our "feeding the hungry person, caring for the sick person, visiting a prisoner, and housing a wanderer" is actually grounded in those crazy doctrines like the hypostasic union and kenosis. Sure, we don't have to talk about it everyday or have it all figured out to worship and serve together, but it's lurking behind the scenes even when we try to ignore it. <br></br><br>With that said, this is why I'm such a huge fan of John Wesley and his early followers (and a few of his current followers as well). He was a theological thinker and had elaborate ideas about the order of salvation and entire sanctification, but at the end of the day, "if your heart is as my heart, give me your hand" was his battlecry. And his pietist focus on living theology is inspiring. The head/heart dichotomy is a false one, but if I had to fault, I'd go with the heart every time. GOOD POST DANIEL!</br>Michael ClineWed, 23 Apr 2008 08:23:39 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_faith_of_our_fathers/#comment-5298074My personal baseline theology, although it is popular to throw out any kind of line that makes one "in" or "out" is the Apostle's Creed (Or Nicene depending on which day I'm asked). I think the Orthodox church has given me motivation in the last few years to categorize less and less as "dogma" and more and more as "doctrine" or "opinion." But that's just me.Michael ClineWed, 23 Apr 2008 17:04:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_faith_of_our_fathers/#comment-5298079Sorry, the response below was to hewhocutsdown.<br></br><br>To justagirl...</br><br></br><br>Certainly praxis and doxis go hand in hand. It's impossible , IMO, to say one comes before the other. And orthodoxy won't always result in orthopraxy (or even orthopathy...the new rage of academic minded folk). I've tended to go orthodoxy first, but that is changing with time, as is everything else in my life. We gain knowledge when we act as much as we act on knowledge we have. Richard Rohr has some interesting thoughts on this topic. He founded the Center for Action and Contemplation...and in that order....in New Mexico awhile back. It's his opinion that contemplation that results after action is usually the way to go.</br>Michael ClineWed, 23 Apr 2008 17:07:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_faith_of_our_fathers/#comment-5298080Sorry, the response below was to hewhocutsdown.<br></br><br>To justagirl...</br><br></br><br>Certainly praxis and doxis go hand in hand. It's impossible , IMO, to say one comes before the other. And orthodoxy won't always result in orthopraxy (or even orthopathy...the new rage of academic minded folk). I've tended to go orthodoxy first, but that is changing with time, as is everything else in my life. We gain knowledge when we act as much as we act on knowledge we have. Richard Rohr has some interesting thoughts on this topic. He founded the Center for Action and Contemplation...and in that order....in New Mexico awhile back. It's his opinion that contemplation that results after action is usually the way to go.</br>Michael ClineWed, 23 Apr 2008 17:07:29 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_faith_of_our_fathers/#comment-5298077I need about one more hour in my day to be able to respond adequately to this post. Sorry. Maybe sometime soon.Michael ClineWed, 23 Apr 2008 19:24:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_faith_of_our_fathers/#comment-5298078I need about one more hour in my day to be able to respond adequately to this post. Sorry. Maybe sometime soon.Michael ClineWed, 23 Apr 2008 19:24:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_faith_of_our_fathers/#comment-5298085Orthodoxy = "right beliefs" (getting your head straight)<br></br><br>Orthopraxy = "right practice" (getting your actions straight)</br><br></br><br>Orthopathy - "right affections" (getting your heart right)</br>Michael ClineWed, 23 Apr 2008 19:25:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_faith_of_our_fathers/#comment-5298086Orthodoxy = "right beliefs" (getting your head straight)<br></br><br>Orthopraxy = "right practice" (getting your actions straight)</br><br></br><br>Orthopathy - "right affections" (getting your heart right)</br>Michael ClineWed, 23 Apr 2008 19:25:38 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/buddhist_follower_of_jesus/#comment-5298108I think we have to be careful to distinguish between proper "contextualization" grounded in the doctrine of the Incarnation and outright "syncretism" whereby we swap core practices and beliefs in an effort to co-op or blend in to another system. In my opinion, I'm not sure one can be a Buddhist Follower of Jesus without butchering both. It's one thing to contextualize the good news of Jesus (including his life and his more cosmological works) in Buddhist culture. But it's another to meld the two systems of thought into one in order to claim both--this is where the faddishness of it all comes into play.Michael ClineThu, 24 Apr 2008 20:33:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_myth_of_progress/#comment-5298233It's been quite popular to trumpet the Kingdom of God motif in recent literature without really unpacking it all the way. I think that this turn in emerging lit. and other authors has actually contributed to the "myth of progress" that Maria is referring to. It's an over-realized eschatology, that comes off as optimistic as the postmillinials. It's a bit of an overreaction to the crazy bullhorn dispensationsalists, shouting off about the end times and imminent doom. <br></br><br>I'd say the Kingdom of God is always coming, always drawing near...and is present at the times that Jesus' bride displays it for all the world to discover. But it is never fully realized so long as sin persists and injustice reigns--which will be for all eternity. But in the meantime, the church's job is to poke holes in the places where the Powers still rule, like on Earth, and lives kingdom-inspired lives in the midst of the void. </br><br></br><br>So i just typed all of that off the top of my head, and I'll probably regret it later, but those are my thoughts for today.</br>Michael ClineWed, 30 Apr 2008 16:31:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_myth_of_progress_37/#comment-399135It's been quite popular to trumpet the Kingdom of God motif in recent literature without really unpacking it all the way. I think that this turn in emerging lit. and other authors has actually contributed to the "myth of progress" that Maria is referring to. It's an over-realized eschatology, that comes off as optimistic as the postmillinials. It's a bit of an overreaction to the crazy bullhorn dispensationsalists, shouting off about the end times and imminent doom. <br><br>I'd say the Kingdom of God is always coming, always drawing near...and is present at the times that Jesus' bride displays it for all the world to discover. But it is never fully realized so long as sin persists and injustice reigns--which will be for all eternity. But in the meantime, the church's job is to poke holes in the places where the Powers still rule, like on Earth, and lives kingdom-inspired lives in the midst of the void. <br><br>So i just typed all of that off the top of my head, and I'll probably regret it later, but those are my thoughts for today.Michael ClineWed, 30 Apr 2008 16:31:50 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_myth_of_progress/#comment-5298236Believing that the kingdom cannot be FULLY realized is not the same thing as suggesting that "sin is a kind of kryptonite which he cannot touch." Just so we're clear. In Scripture, the two exist side by side, Jesus amidst sin. And certainly where Jesus was, the kingdom poked through. But even Jesus' language often points to the kingdom as "coming near"...not quite there. Greg Boyd is fond of saying that "the kingdom always looks like Jesus, acts like Jesus, talks like Jesus, etc..." Which I think is true. If we're going to try to identify kingdom people, they ought to look like Jesus. But if Jesus himself plays the "here but not yet" card, how can we go beyond this? In our embodiment of the kingdom, we have to make sure we aren't falling into the trap of believing that bring the kingdom near is equated to bringing the kingdom absolutely.Michael ClineThu, 01 May 2008 08:02:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_myth_of_progress/#comment-5298240By emerging lit., I mean the type being put out in the last few years by Brian McLaren and some of the other "emergent" posse. A lot of what we consider "popular" has to do with our demographics. For me, I've spent the last 6 years on college campuses of one kind or another, and in these places, "the kingdom of God" motif is in every chapel service and every class discussion. It may not be breaking out into the church on every corner, but it's being talked about.Michael ClineThu, 01 May 2008 08:04:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_apathy_generator/#comment-5298265Can something be both a cause for one, and symptom for another? For some people, I think their television addiction (consumerist mindset, etc...) is a symptom of a deeper, underlying problem. But for others, television is the starting line of a long journey towards apathy.Michael ClineThu, 01 May 2008 18:27:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7314/#comment-5298258Can we have a post on the apathy created by television (and rampant consumerism of pop culture) while simultaneously offering Jesus Manifesto to your mobile phone? :)Michael ClineThu, 01 May 2008 18:28:44 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_myth_of_progress/#comment-5298250Just so I'm not taken the wrong way, I didn't mean to suggest that Emerging minded folk are utopian and off-based. What I think tends to happen is that the READERS of a lot of this "kingdom of God is among us" literature jump to hasty conclusions. <br></br><br>The "here, but not yet" , in my opinion, is exactly a "both/and" kind of statement. While we eagerly wait and walk forward, it wouldn't hurt to get our theological hands dirty as well and talk some of this stuff out before we become another postmillennialism posse.</br>Michael ClineFri, 02 May 2008 15:26:55 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/fighting_with_forks_the_food_crisis_battle/#comment-5298460Great links and an amazingly well written article! I've tried to go vegetarian but didn't last long. Maybe a smaller goal, like eating "slow food" for a month would be a good place to start. Yup, that's what I'm going to commit to. Thanks for the suggestions. <br></br><br>Anyone else?</br>Michael ClineMon, 12 May 2008 10:53:24 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_343/#comment-5298505I'm not sure this document carries the belief that "politics and religion should be separate." If that was the case, Wallis could never sign it. But the message of just what "political" means in the manifesto is foggy at best. For example, page 4 states that Evangelicals should be defined "theologically" and not "politically, socially, or culturally." This is the kind of statement I think irks you Mark. It highly downplays the significance of proper theology and its place in the individual's (and community's) life. Theology never stays in its place...is is inherently going to bleed into the "political" and "social" spheres of life. And furthermore, I can't even comprehend what it means to be an "Evangelical" (or Christian for that matter) that escapes cultural definitions. The term "Evangelical" came out of a certain context. The neo-evangelicals have to adapt to their current context. So what does a non-cultural definition of "Evangelical" even look like?<br></br><br>What makes that statement all the more fuzzy to me, is that there are other points in the document that contradict such a isolationist view as spelled out above. The entire document is very political, which goes to show how hard it is to separate our "theological" definitions from the "political" ones. Several paragraphs are dedicated to distancing themselves from one-issue voters and fundamentalists of all stripes. </br><br></br><br>So I am not sure the manifesto assumes that politics and religion should be separate, it just doesn't do a very consistent job of using the word "politics". I believe when these people "Amen" the idea that Evangelicals shouldn't be political, what they really mean is: "Not all evangelicals are right-winged whack jobs...please stop lumping us together." Which, if that is the case, it could have been said in one or two pages instead of 20.</br>Michael ClineTue, 13 May 2008 20:50:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/impacting_the_winds_of_change/#comment-5298554Wallis has really been shifting his position the last few books, and I think it is coming out of growing disillusionment with the games government plays. I used to be a big fan of Sojourners, but I got so fed up with their constant lobbying and email newsletters asking me to call my local representative for this and that. It seems that "The Great Awakening" is moving away from this type of action and more towards the grassroots religious level that he used to only occasionally comment about. If this is the case, Wallis and I are going to have to catch up with one another. :)<br></br><br>"The Great Awakening"--I admit, I haven't read it. Has anyone else? I'd love to hear a brief summary. I'm wondering how much of his book goes back to the start (I use "start" loosely) of evangelicalism, the Great Awakenings of Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles G. Finney, and others...</br>Michael ClineThu, 15 May 2008 10:40:19 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_6926/#comment-5298552Good thing I don't have a camera. This new feature, added with Twitter, and my self-absorbed index would go through the roofMichael ClineThu, 15 May 2008 10:44:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/impacting_the_winds_of_change/#comment-5298556I work of out of a similar "hermeneutic of suspicion" when it comes to social justice gurus and their D.C. friends, but isn't this actually the exact opposite of the Religious Right's history? Not saying that this is any better (IF you are right in your critique), but didn't the RR move from religious engagement to lobbying rather than the other way around? I'm thinking especially on pro-life issues.Michael ClineThu, 15 May 2008 10:49:37 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/once_upon_a_time8230/#comment-5298585I just watched Stranger Than Fiction, and I must say, you are a genius for picking up on what you did. I can't believe I blew through that portion of the film without stopping to think about what was being communicated. <br>I just began my trek into pastoral ministry as the pastor of young adults at a local church in Minneapolis. We're a small group, maybe 8-10 on a good week. But one of the first things we are doing is sharing our "stories"--how we got to where we are, where God has brought us from, the people he used to get us there, etc... As we tell these stories, we begin to see a little bit of of our own journey in the other's tales and we begin to resemble a family more so than a club. I'm not sure everyone else is buying it, but I'm having a blast.</br>Michael ClineWed, 21 May 2008 08:53:45 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/once_upon_a_time8230/#comment-5298587I will definitely look that one up. Thanks!Michael ClineWed, 21 May 2008 14:38:40 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/identity_in_poverty_blessed_are_the_poor_in_spirit/#comment-5298596Oh yes, that downward mobility thing. This is such a tough subject, and you've tackled with grace and humility. I'm trying to learn those traits, as suggesting that I should help to "make affluence history" more so than "make poverty history" seems ludicrous to most people I talk to. I worry that much of our ministry to the poor is out of pity that they can't live better lives...i.e. lives like ours. While at the same time, I've heard people use this same reasoning to remain apathetic and disengaged, usually sighting Jesus' words (out of context) that "the poor will always be among you" as a reason to not try so hard.Michael ClineThu, 22 May 2008 07:55:15 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/faith_half_mast/#comment-5298600That may be the most frustrating response ever, but at least they agree in theory. I'm yet to find too many churches that would even go that far with you (outside the historic peace churches).Michael ClineThu, 22 May 2008 11:46:46 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/faith_half_mast/#comment-5298603I'm all for remembering them in light of tragedy-- it's in the light of divinity that makes me woozy. All sacrifice is not on the same level. So how do I honor their sacrifice while still finding a way of communicating that Patton's quote of "the object of war is not to die for you country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his," while summing war up pretty accurately, does not reflect the cross of Christ?<br></br><br>I'd also like to add that I have no theological objections to barbecues. ;)</br>Michael ClineThu, 22 May 2008 18:19:42 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/faith_half_mast/#comment-5298605And how do you navigate those who would rather you be a little more patriotic?Michael ClineFri, 23 May 2008 10:16:55 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/faith_half_mast/#comment-5298621We give a lot of lip service to listening to the "other" among us...usually meaning the oppressed or the disenfranchised. But in this case, my "other" includes WWII vets and local leaders of the VFW. <br></br><br>That's a little harder to swallow isn't it? We tend to want to listen to the "other" in our midst as long as they aren't the "other" that looks a lot like us but just thinks differently.</br>Michael ClineTue, 27 May 2008 14:43:31 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/faith_half_mast/#comment-5298623It definitely is a fine line, and you are dancing it quite well--but I come from a background where dancing was discouraged for Christians, so I'm not sure my opinion matters much.<br></br><br>I guess my emphasis was on HEARING the other and giving place for the other, and not so much on agreeing with sinful activities and attitudes. I am afraid that Cory's comments could lead to a "well, we're the pure church" kind of attitude that has caused, not reconciliation and righteousness, but unnecessary splintering and finger pointing. (not that all splintering is bad). People who disagree with us on issues of war and violence are not going to be best served by being left to their own devices. If the veterans leave, they are just going to find the best civil religious organization around, not Jesus.</br>Michael ClineTue, 27 May 2008 16:01:17 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/faith_half_mast/#comment-5298624And I also agree that as we listen, we should call them to repentance gently. It's the "how" of this that I'm trying to get at. Got any ideas?Michael ClineTue, 27 May 2008 16:02:43 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_285/#comment-5298721Good questions Nathan and a solid response from Ted. Thanks for the food for thought.<br></br><br>I'm trying to put myself more and more in the shoes of those who believe differently than I do and bring a different hermeneutic to their faith and to the Scriptures. So I'm going to ask a question that I think many in this "other" group could be pondering:</br><br></br><br>Ted, what do you do with the imagery of Jesus in Revelation in light of your understanding of Jesus' nature as revealed in the Cross? Doesn't Revelation's language tend towards a Mark Driscoll, "Jesus is strong and will eventually crush those who turn their backs on him," interpretation?</br>Michael ClineTue, 03 Jun 2008 07:51:59 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_285/#comment-5298733Glad that you've found a moment with Jesus Manifesto where God can speak to your current situation. Sorry it is so painful. And thank God we serve a Master that knows that kind of hurt.Michael ClineTue, 03 Jun 2008 18:29:53 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/protesting_the_rnc/#comment-5298767It's just too easy. Too easy to carry a sign and march around shouting various anti-war (and let's be honest, in this case, it would be anti-republican) slogans. I'm thinking this is a little like the post I wrote about being faithful to the Kingdom on Memorial Day in local traditional churches. While hijacking the service by detuning the piano might protest the usual civil religious activity that occurs, it's a bit too easy to actually be effective. There has to be this creative tension we live in when "protesting." <br>With that said, I think the first way we protest the war in Iraq is to personally renew our commitment to nonviolence, and encourage our brothers and sisters who have been baited into military service to pursue conscientious objector status. We could also protest the war by consuming less stuff from the mega-corporations that fuel the countries interests to go to war, and instead invest in peacemaking like that being done by Christian Peacemaking Teams. This isn't easy. It downright sucks sometimes. But I'm weary of any "protest" that doesn't cost us something.</br>Michael ClineSun, 08 Jun 2008 08:50:14 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_election_and_our_election/#comment-5298759Brandon, great article. There are some really heavy sentences in here that should make us all stop, think, and maybe even pray. I love the way you used "election" language (and in my Arminianism, I'm glad you didn't go too far into the definition--"election" is a word my camp likes to bypass) :) .<br></br><br>I'd agree with my non-voting brothers below me here. I got a little self-righteous when you called me a Pharisee...oh wait, maybe that's the problem. You nailed me. But, even though I disagree with some of those "prolonged pot-shots," I'm glad you wrote this article and that we could get it up on JM because our readers have already heard long arguments from the non-voting crowd. Mark, myself, and a few others have already written that viewpoint to death. So thanks for being willing to represent a more middle ground and give a lot more people a platform to shake their heads with.</br>Michael ClineSun, 08 Jun 2008 09:01:25 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/jesus_manifesto_11/#comment-5298835Not to toot our own horn (because we have tons of examples where we have done just the opposite), but I'm proud of my denomination for being so "pro woman." The Wesleyan Church was one of the first to ordain women for vocational ministry and just this past week, we elected our first ever female General Superintendent (long overdue). <br></br><br>I guess I write this in order for my sisters to take heart...we don't all think you belong in the kitchen.</br>Michael ClineMon, 16 Jun 2008 14:50:41 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_4638/#comment-5298892It's just a little hard (and perhaps dishonest) to read Wendell Berry, type out thoughts about Sabbath taking, and continue to pile up responsibilities to the neglect of my own spiritual life or home life. I thought I should be a little more genuine than that.<br></br><br>With that said, I appreciate the send off. In a very real sense, Jesus Manifesto has become a safe community for me that I wouldn't have anywhere else. I hope to continue writing from time to time and to be active in dialogue with you all. Grace and Peace.</br>Michael ClineMon, 23 Jun 2008 17:45:27 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/co_editor_position/#comment-733740It's just a little hard (and perhaps dishonest) to read Wendell Berry, type out thoughts about Sabbath taking, and continue to pile up responsibilities to the neglect of my own spiritual life or home life. I thought I should be a little more genuine than that.<br><br>With that said, I appreciate the send off. In a very real sense, Jesus Manifesto has become a safe community for me that I wouldn't have anywhere else. I hope to continue writing from time to time and to be active in dialogue with you all. Grace and Peace.Michael ClineMon, 23 Jun 2008 17:45:27 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_7117/#comment-5298948What a great choice! And to think I was able to hold this job for even 6 months with guys like this floating around the site. Looks like I'm getting out at just the right time. :)<br></br><br>Congrats Brandon and feel free to show me up at every turn. You are bringing an awesome set of skills to this community.</br>Michael ClineWed, 02 Jul 2008 08:32:57 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/happy_st_elizabeth8217s_day/#comment-5298999This is different than the Saint Elizabeth of Hungary I take it? I googled St. Elizabeth after seeing you gmail status and got nothing but reference to St. Elizabeth of Hungary, who is celebrated sometime in November I believe. Her story is quite compelling as well and really fits nice with the passions of JM.Michael ClineSat, 05 Jul 2008 11:52:56 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_1139/#comment-5298995Wow, San Fran has stacked the deck. Too bad no one can afford to fly out there. :(Michael ClineSat, 05 Jul 2008 11:55:01 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/happy_st_elizabeth8217s_day/#comment-5299012Oh yes, a good old fashion blog attack. <br></br><br>Mark, seriously, grow up already. Jonas is going to need a mature dad.</br><br></br><br>In the meantime, thanks for the blog site hit Consta(n?)tine. We love angry traffic.</br>Michael ClineMon, 07 Jul 2008 09:28:04 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/gandhi_was_wrong/#comment-5299264Wow Brandon, this is just beautiful. N.T. Wright's eschatology, a bit of Hays "Moral Vision" language, and the dismantling of Western individualism while deconstructing a quote from Ghandi--I don't know how you did it, but you did. <br>Now if only I could find a way to dial all this down into something to present my sunday school class this week as we study Colossians 1:9-23.</br>Michael ClineWed, 30 Jul 2008 09:20:12 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_0692/#comment-5299390I always found my own fascination with the "hipster"/ "radical" crew a bit odd. I certainly don't look the part. I don't use the cool words or the cool products (which are actually not "cool" right? I don't know, I can't keep up when being not-cool became the cool). In private conversation with Mark, I tended to lament my non-hipster status, wondering how the JM readers would take my picture with my beautiful wife in my pressed and collared button-up. If I met Mark at a local grunge cafe, should I dress down (which for me was jeans and a t-shirt), or will that not even work, and the locals will smell the yuppy from a mile away.<br></br><br>At some point, I just got over it. </br><br></br><br>Thanks for this look into your heart Mark. We all have a lot of introspection to do, but it will only take us so far. And displaying that heart for others to look at has to be the only way around this "hipsterdom" that we've created.</br>Michael ClineTue, 05 Aug 2008 18:56:47 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/red_letters_living_a_faith_that_bleeds/#comment-5299415Wow, those are some serious accusations being levied in those links. Thanks for the heads up. It would indeed be odd to think the CEO of a company involved in such human rights abuses would plug a book about social justice and protecting the disenfranchised. If you don't mind, I'll pass your comment along to the author Tom Davis, just to see what he has to say. He may be as unaware as I was.Michael ClineThu, 07 Aug 2008 09:54:13 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/the_jesus_manifesto_raquo_maintenance_mode_2933/#comment-5299973Whew, it&#39;s been awhile JM. Hope everyone is doing well in this community that has both nurtured and challenged me over the last year or so. Sorry I&#39;ve been so distant.<br>Maria, I understand your discomfort with the term "empire." It might be the #3 word used on this site (right behind "the," and "I"). And definition for what is empire and what is not abound, which makes it all the more difficult to know how to feel about the term when it is used in particular contexts. </br><br></br><br>I personally favor the definition given in Colossians Remixed by Brian J. Walsh and Sylvia C. Keesmaat (they may have borrowed it from elsewhere): "Empire are totalizing by definition...Empires are [1]built on systematic centralizations of power, [2] secured by structures of socioeconomic and military control, [3] religiously legitimated by powerful myths and [4] sustained by a proliferation of imperial images that captivate the imaginations of the population." </br><br></br><br>We tend to focus on 1 and 2, but it&#39;s 3 and 4 that really oil the machine and are unconsciously served in the lives of so many. And I think it&#39;s 3 and 4 that this website tends to name, which is why there is often a pushback by many readers (which isn&#39;t a bad thing in itself). It&#39;s far easier for some people to admit that the U.S. maintains control through military might. It&#39;s when we point out the consumerist impulse that owns our imaginations and it legitimized on Sundays that people get really uneasy.</br>Michael ClineThu, 30 Oct 2008 09:08:49 -0000http://jesusmanifesto.disqus.com/living_in_the_question_of_non_violent_enactment/#comment-7789536"Constructing an ethic supported by anything more than a theological exposition of the people of God attempting to continue the story of Jesus is difficult and perhaps unnecessary."<br><br>Of course, the "theological exposition of the people of God attempting to continue the story of Jesus" is quite an all-consuming task that reaches into various fields and "sciences," right? So what ends up being "support" for this ethical construction is quite a large pile, much larger than the text of the four gospels (and I realize that you have spelled out your view of Scripture in another JM essay, so no need to go there).<br><br>I guess it's just the last word of the above paragraph that struck me a little odd. Unnecessary? Only if the "theological exposition" is done in some sort of philosophical vacuum, absent of all other materials for ethical construction. But I'm not sure we ever start our ethical project from here, do we?<br><br>If so, my ethics class at Bethel is in for a real shock. It seems like we should have just done ethics in systematic theology.Michael ClineMon, 23 Mar 2009 17:56:26 -0000