DISQUS

"Constructing an ethic supported by anything more than a theological exposition of the people of God attempting to continue the story of Jesus is difficult and perhaps unnecessary."

Of course, the "theological exposition of the people of God attempting to continue the story of Jesus" is quite an all-consuming task that reaches into various fields and "sciences," right? So what ends up being "support" for this ethical construction is quite a large pile, much larger than the text of the four gospels (and I realize that you have spelled out your view of Scripture in another JM essay, so no need to go there).

I guess it's just the last word of the above paragraph that struck me a little odd. Unnecessary? Only if the "theological exposition" is done in some sort of philosophical vacuum, absent of all other materials for ethical construction. But I'm not sure we ever start our ethical project from here, do we?

If so, my ethics class at Bethel is in for a real shock. It seems like we should have just done ethics in systematic theology.

Whew, it's been awhile JM. Hope everyone is doing well in this community that has both nurtured and challenged me over the last year or so. Sorry I've been so distant.
Maria, I understand your discomfort with the term "empire." It might be the #3 word used on this site (right behind "the," and "I"). And definition for what is empire and what is not abound, which makes it all the more difficult to know how to feel about the term when it is used in particular contexts.



I personally favor the definition given in Colossians Remixed by Brian J. Walsh and Sylvia C. Keesmaat (they may have borrowed it from elsewhere): "Empire are totalizing by definition...Empires are [1]built on systematic centralizations of power, [2] secured by structures of socioeconomic and military control, [3] religiously legitimated by powerful myths and [4] sustained by a proliferation of imperial images that captivate the imaginations of the population."



We tend to focus on 1 and 2, but it's 3 and 4 that really oil the machine and are unconsciously served in the lives of so many. And I think it's 3 and 4 that this website tends to name, which is why there is often a pushback by many readers (which isn't a bad thing in itself). It's far easier for some people to admit that the U.S. maintains control through military might. It's when we point out the consumerist impulse that owns our imaginations and it legitimized on Sundays that people get really uneasy.

Wow, those are some serious accusations being levied in those links. Thanks for the heads up. It would indeed be odd to think the CEO of a company involved in such human rights abuses would plug a book about social justice and protecting the disenfranchised. If you don't mind, I'll pass your comment along to the author Tom Davis, just to see what he has to say. He may be as unaware as I was.

I always found my own fascination with the "hipster"/ "radical" crew a bit odd. I certainly don't look the part. I don't use the cool words or the cool products (which are actually not "cool" right? I don't know, I can't keep up when being not-cool became the cool). In private conversation with Mark, I tended to lament my non-hipster status, wondering how the JM readers would take my picture with my beautiful wife in my pressed and collared button-up. If I met Mark at a local grunge cafe, should I dress down (which for me was jeans and a t-shirt), or will that not even work, and the locals will smell the yuppy from a mile away.


At some point, I just got over it.



Thanks for this look into your heart Mark. We all have a lot of introspection to do, but it will only take us so far. And displaying that heart for others to look at has to be the only way around this "hipsterdom" that we've created.

Wow Brandon, this is just beautiful. N.T. Wright's eschatology, a bit of Hays "Moral Vision" language, and the dismantling of Western individualism while deconstructing a quote from Ghandi--I don't know how you did it, but you did.
Now if only I could find a way to dial all this down into something to present my sunday school class this week as we study Colossians 1:9-23.

Oh yes, a good old fashion blog attack.


Mark, seriously, grow up already. Jonas is going to need a mature dad.



In the meantime, thanks for the blog site hit Consta(n?)tine. We love angry traffic.

Wow, San Fran has stacked the deck. Too bad no one can afford to fly out there. :(

This is different than the Saint Elizabeth of Hungary I take it? I googled St. Elizabeth after seeing you gmail status and got nothing but reference to St. Elizabeth of Hungary, who is celebrated sometime in November I believe. Her story is quite compelling as well and really fits nice with the passions of JM.

What a great choice! And to think I was able to hold this job for even 6 months with guys like this floating around the site. Looks like I'm getting out at just the right time. :)


Congrats Brandon and feel free to show me up at every turn. You are bringing an awesome set of skills to this community.

It's just a little hard (and perhaps dishonest) to read Wendell Berry, type out thoughts about Sabbath taking, and continue to pile up responsibilities to the neglect of my own spiritual life or home life. I thought I should be a little more genuine than that.

With that said, I appreciate the send off. In a very real sense, Jesus Manifesto has become a safe community for me that I wouldn't have anywhere else. I hope to continue writing from time to time and to be active in dialogue with you all. Grace and Peace.

It's just a little hard (and perhaps dishonest) to read Wendell Berry, type out thoughts about Sabbath taking, and continue to pile up responsibilities to the neglect of my own spiritual life or home life. I thought I should be a little more genuine than that.


With that said, I appreciate the send off. In a very real sense, Jesus Manifesto has become a safe community for me that I wouldn't have anywhere else. I hope to continue writing from time to time and to be active in dialogue with you all. Grace and Peace.

Not to toot our own horn (because we have tons of examples where we have done just the opposite), but I'm proud of my denomination for being so "pro woman." The Wesleyan Church was one of the first to ordain women for vocational ministry and just this past week, we elected our first ever female General Superintendent (long overdue).


I guess I write this in order for my sisters to take heart...we don't all think you belong in the kitchen.

Brandon, great article. There are some really heavy sentences in here that should make us all stop, think, and maybe even pray. I love the way you used "election" language (and in my Arminianism, I'm glad you didn't go too far into the definition--"election" is a word my camp likes to bypass) :) .


I'd agree with my non-voting brothers below me here. I got a little self-righteous when you called me a Pharisee...oh wait, maybe that's the problem. You nailed me. But, even though I disagree with some of those "prolonged pot-shots," I'm glad you wrote this article and that we could get it up on JM because our readers have already heard long arguments from the non-voting crowd. Mark, myself, and a few others have already written that viewpoint to death. So thanks for being willing to represent a more middle ground and give a lot more people a platform to shake their heads with.

It's just too easy. Too easy to carry a sign and march around shouting various anti-war (and let's be honest, in this case, it would be anti-republican) slogans. I'm thinking this is a little like the post I wrote about being faithful to the Kingdom on Memorial Day in local traditional churches. While hijacking the service by detuning the piano might protest the usual civil religious activity that occurs, it's a bit too easy to actually be effective. There has to be this creative tension we live in when "protesting."
With that said, I think the first way we protest the war in Iraq is to personally renew our commitment to nonviolence, and encourage our brothers and sisters who have been baited into military service to pursue conscientious objector status. We could also protest the war by consuming less stuff from the mega-corporations that fuel the countries interests to go to war, and instead invest in peacemaking like that being done by Christian Peacemaking Teams. This isn't easy. It downright sucks sometimes. But I'm weary of any "protest" that doesn't cost us something.

Glad that you've found a moment with Jesus Manifesto where God can speak to your current situation. Sorry it is so painful. And thank God we serve a Master that knows that kind of hurt.

Good questions Nathan and a solid response from Ted. Thanks for the food for thought.


I'm trying to put myself more and more in the shoes of those who believe differently than I do and bring a different hermeneutic to their faith and to the Scriptures. So I'm going to ask a question that I think many in this "other" group could be pondering:



Ted, what do you do with the imagery of Jesus in Revelation in light of your understanding of Jesus' nature as revealed in the Cross? Doesn't Revelation's language tend towards a Mark Driscoll, "Jesus is strong and will eventually crush those who turn their backs on him," interpretation?

And I also agree that as we listen, we should call them to repentance gently. It's the "how" of this that I'm trying to get at. Got any ideas?

It definitely is a fine line, and you are dancing it quite well--but I come from a background where dancing was discouraged for Christians, so I'm not sure my opinion matters much.


I guess my emphasis was on HEARING the other and giving place for the other, and not so much on agreeing with sinful activities and attitudes. I am afraid that Cory's comments could lead to a "well, we're the pure church" kind of attitude that has caused, not reconciliation and righteousness, but unnecessary splintering and finger pointing. (not that all splintering is bad). People who disagree with us on issues of war and violence are not going to be best served by being left to their own devices. If the veterans leave, they are just going to find the best civil religious organization around, not Jesus.

We give a lot of lip service to listening to the "other" among us...usually meaning the oppressed or the disenfranchised. But in this case, my "other" includes WWII vets and local leaders of the VFW.


That's a little harder to swallow isn't it? We tend to want to listen to the "other" in our midst as long as they aren't the "other" that looks a lot like us but just thinks differently.

And how do you navigate those who would rather you be a little more patriotic?

I'm all for remembering them in light of tragedy-- it's in the light of divinity that makes me woozy. All sacrifice is not on the same level. So how do I honor their sacrifice while still finding a way of communicating that Patton's quote of "the object of war is not to die for you country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his," while summing war up pretty accurately, does not reflect the cross of Christ?


I'd also like to add that I have no theological objections to barbecues. ;)

That may be the most frustrating response ever, but at least they agree in theory. I'm yet to find too many churches that would even go that far with you (outside the historic peace churches).

Oh yes, that downward mobility thing. This is such a tough subject, and you've tackled with grace and humility. I'm trying to learn those traits, as suggesting that I should help to "make affluence history" more so than "make poverty history" seems ludicrous to most people I talk to. I worry that much of our ministry to the poor is out of pity that they can't live better lives...i.e. lives like ours. While at the same time, I've heard people use this same reasoning to remain apathetic and disengaged, usually sighting Jesus' words (out of context) that "the poor will always be among you" as a reason to not try so hard.

I will definitely look that one up. Thanks!

I just watched Stranger Than Fiction, and I must say, you are a genius for picking up on what you did. I can't believe I blew through that portion of the film without stopping to think about what was being communicated.
I just began my trek into pastoral ministry as the pastor of young adults at a local church in Minneapolis. We're a small group, maybe 8-10 on a good week. But one of the first things we are doing is sharing our "stories"--how we got to where we are, where God has brought us from, the people he used to get us there, etc... As we tell these stories, we begin to see a little bit of of our own journey in the other's tales and we begin to resemble a family more so than a club. I'm not sure everyone else is buying it, but I'm having a blast.