Disqus - Latest Comments for graham

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:12:39 -0000

Loving ALL sinners, even homosexuals

Came across an article today through another blog... A quote from the article I liked: But if God's people are not equipped to give homosexuals the special kind of love they need in order to heal the wounds of their

Re: Its about time

graham — Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:20:45 -0000

Amen, brother! Thanks for the pointer.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:20:45 -0000

Amen, brother! Thanks for the pointer.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:20:45 -0000

Amen, brother! Thanks for the pointer.

Re: Full Moon

graham — Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:56:01 -0000

Wow!

I can beat that, though. Friends of mine took over a church somewhere and found out that the worship leader was a moonie!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:56:01 -0000

Wow!

I can beat that, though. Friends of mine took over a church somewhere and found out that the worship leader was a moonie!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:56:01 -0000

Wow!

I can beat that, though. Friends of mine took over a church somewhere and found out that the worship leader was a moonie!

Re: Full Moon

graham — Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:28:32 -0000

Gee, Christ, what isn't a post-Christian cult nowadays? ;o)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:28:32 -0000

Gee, Christ, what isn't a post-Christian cult nowadays? ;o)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:28:32 -0000

Gee, Christ, what isn't a post-Christian cult nowadays? ;o)

Re: Full Moon

graham — Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:29:27 -0000

Oops - that's meant to say "Chris" not "Christ."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:29:27 -0000

Oops - that's meant to say "Chris" not "Christ."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:29:27 -0000

Oops - that's meant to say "Chris" not "Christ."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 02 Nov 2004 06:42:56 -0000

Ooh, I like the Chocolate-brown!

Re: A couple changes

graham — Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:42:56 -0000

Ooh, I like the Chocolate-brown!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:42:56 -0000

Ooh, I like the Chocolate-brown!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:09:40 -0000

Sounds great. Where's it gonna be?

Re: MissionThink 2006

graham — Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:09:40 -0000

Sounds great. Where's it gonna be?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:09:40 -0000

Sounds great. Where's it gonna be?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 02 Apr 2005 10:51:16 -0000

Ooh, great quote!

Guarantee, they'll be running conferences on multi-ethinic churches within 2 years. :-)

Re: A Quote from Hybels

graham — Sat, 02 Apr 2005 11:51:16 -0000

Ooh, great quote!

Guarantee, they'll be running conferences on multi-ethinic churches within 2 years. :-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 02 Apr 2005 11:51:16 -0000

Ooh, great quote!

Guarantee, they'll be running conferences on multi-ethinic churches within 2 years. :-)

Re: Chris, the Kingdom, and Jim Wallis

graham — Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:35:57 -0000

Ah, yeah! That is so spot-on. :-)

Cheers.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:35:57 -0000

Ah, yeah! That is so spot-on. :-)

Cheers.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:35:57 -0000

Ah, yeah! That is so spot-on. :-)

Cheers.

Re: Rethinking the Atonement

graham — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 04:02:42 -0000

traditional theory of penal substitution. In recent years (and indeed throughout Church history) there have been some great reformulations of the doctrine. That's got to be a good thing.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 04:02:42 -0000

Mark, thanks for the link and the kind words.

Chris, it's possible to understand the substitutionary language of the new testament in non-penal ways. Many of the Church Fathers and - consequently - the Eastern Orthodox do just that. Some take the language as referring to representation, instead of substitution. I tend to read it as non-penal substitution.

However, IMO, the problem is with the traditional theory of penal substitution. In recent years (and indeed throughout Church history) there have been some great reformulations of the doctrine. That's got to be a good thing.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 04:02:42 -0000

traditional theory of penal substitution. In recent years (and indeed throughout Church history) there have been some great reformulations of the doctrine. That's got to be a good thing.

Re: Rethinking the Atonement

graham — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:29:08 -0000

Ah, I hate to do this, but I don't see penal substitution in Rom. 5:9. :-)

However, I agree that if we can start with scripture then we're onto a good footing. Even better if we can stop with scripture! So, if our understanding of the atonement from that verse is that we have been saved from the wrath of God because of Jesus then we're really getting somewhere. Any theory we put on top of that can only be understood as metaphorical, and that's fine.

Incidentally - and I'll state this at the end because my point was to agree with you, not disagree - I read the passage as speaking of Christ's subsitution in the sense of someone who went into battle instead of us. Some others believe Christ saves us from God's wrath by saving us from Sin, Sin being what brings God's wrath upon us.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:29:08 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:29:08 -0000

Re: Rethinking the Atonement

graham — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:48:47 -0000

"we can never truly describe what Jesus did for us. We can only describe what it is like."

Yeah, I like that.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:48:47 -0000

"we can never truly describe what Jesus did for us. We can only describe what it is like."

Yeah, I like that.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:48:47 -0000

"we can never truly describe what Jesus did for us. We can only describe what it is like."

Yeah, I like that.

Re: A Call for a Non Partisan Sabbatical

graham — Tue, 07 Jun 2005 13:06:03 -0000

Great quote!

I said to someone just recently that it feels like the more lower-case-p-political my faith becomes, the less upper-case-p-political I feel.

But I think Roth puts it better! :-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 07 Jun 2005 13:06:03 -0000

Great quote!

I said to someone just recently that it feels like the more lower-case-p-political my faith becomes, the less upper-case-p-political I feel.

But I think Roth puts it better! :-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 07 Jun 2005 13:06:03 -0000

Great quote!

I said to someone just recently that it feels like the more lower-case-p-political my faith becomes, the less upper-case-p-political I feel.

But I think Roth puts it better! :-)

Re: Call Me Crazy, But… (my response to Emergent’s Latest Press Release)

graham — Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:53:43 -0000

Does it help if we draw a distinction between Emergent (as an organisation/conversation) and The Emerging Church as a movement?

I don't think this announcement means that the emerging church (if such a thing really exists) is being managed or organised any more than it has been before. I think it just means that the organisation recognises that it may need to shape up a bit.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:53:43 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:53:43 -0000

Re: Of Illness and Mission

graham — Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:55:07 -0000

I don't know the answer. As someone who has lived ot of the neighbourhood - and now as someone who lives in and leads many who don't - both scenarios often feel like they lack some integrity.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:55:07 -0000

I don't know the answer. As someone who has lived ot of the neighbourhood - and now as someone who lives in and leads many who don't - both scenarios often feel like they lack some integrity.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:55:07 -0000

I don't know the answer. As someone who has lived ot of the neighbourhood - and now as someone who lives in and leads many who don't - both scenarios often feel like they lack some integrity.

Re: West Bank Tea Room

graham — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:32:04 -0000

"One of my frustrations has been how much harder it is to establish presence in a place than I expected. "

I'm with ya there buddy!

I'd love to help out with the Tea room, but I suspect that the Ocean will get in the way!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:32:04 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:32:04 -0000

Re: Bethel Seminary

graham — Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:52:16 -0000

Oh, nice one! :-) What an opportunity.

I'd love to see the syllabus.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:52:16 -0000

Oh, nice one! :-) What an opportunity.

I'd love to see the syllabus.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:52:16 -0000

Oh, nice one! :-) What an opportunity.

I'd love to see the syllabus.

Re: Organic Church Post

graham — Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:24:11 -0000

And a great post it is, Mark!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:24:11 -0000

And a great post it is, Mark!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:24:11 -0000

And a great post it is, Mark!

Re: 50 Most Influential Churches

graham — Fri, 12 Aug 2005 06:58:21 -0000

Loads of churches under 2000 are hugely influential, Chris.

Church of the Savior in Washington D.C. is/was just one example.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 12 Aug 2005 06:58:21 -0000

Loads of churches under 2000 are hugely influential, Chris.

Church of the Savior in Washington D.C. is/was just one example.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 12 Aug 2005 06:58:21 -0000

Loads of churches under 2000 are hugely influential, Chris.

Church of the Savior in Washington D.C. is/was just one example.

Re: Breaking Blog Silence: A Lament

graham — Thu, 08 Sep 2005 13:14:12 -0000

Ah, man - that sucks!

I was looking at the flyer/advert this morning and thinking that it all looked and sounded pretty cool.

Here's praying that some kind of resolution can be found.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 08 Sep 2005 13:14:12 -0000

Ah, man - that sucks!

I was looking at the flyer/advert this morning and thinking that it all looked and sounded pretty cool.

Here's praying that some kind of resolution can be found.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 08 Sep 2005 13:14:12 -0000

Ah, man - that sucks!

I was looking at the flyer/advert this morning and thinking that it all looked and sounded pretty cool.

Here's praying that some kind of resolution can be found.

Re: Feedback on Ecclesiology

graham — Thu, 15 Sep 2005 03:18:45 -0000

Hmmm... well, I think that most of the books that have shaped my ecclesiology haven't all been explicitly about Church. But they would include:

Transforming Mission - Bosch
Church Planting - Murray
Body Politics - Yoder
Christianity Rediscovered - Donovan
Paul's idea of community - Banks

and then a number of other anabaptist books that have shaped my view of discipleship, which invariably gives church a particular shape.

Oh, no, wait... scrap all that. I got my ecclesiology straight from God (via the Bible)! ;-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 15 Sep 2005 03:18:45 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 15 Sep 2005 03:18:45 -0000

Hmmm... well, I think that most of the books that have shaped my ecclesiology haven't all been explicitly about Church. But they would include:

Transforming Mission - Bosch

Church Planting - Murray

Body Politics - Yoder

Christianity Rediscovered - Donovan

Paul's idea of community - Banks

and then a number of other anabaptist books that have shaped my view of discipleship, which invariably gives church a particular shape.

Oh, no, wait... scrap all that. I got my ecclesiology straight from God (via the Bible)! ;-)

Re: Conference on Christianity in a Consumer Culture

graham — Fri, 16 Sep 2005 03:41:23 -0000

love to be there, but not sure we can stretch to the air-fare! :-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 16 Sep 2005 03:41:23 -0000

Looks great, Mark. I would love to be there, but not sure we can stretch to the air-fare! :-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 16 Sep 2005 03:41:23 -0000

love to be there, but not sure we can stretch to the air-fare! :-)

Re: Right versus Left: One Neo-Anabaptist’s Perspective

graham — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 13:23:59 -0000

Jeff, I don't think that anabaptists would necessarilly disagree with that. How it's done, might be debateable though.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 13:23:59 -0000

Jeff, I don't think that anabaptists would necessarilly disagree with that. How it's done, might be debateable though.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 13:23:59 -0000

Jeff, I don't think that anabaptists would necessarilly disagree with that. How it's done, might be debateable though.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 20 Nov 2005 08:19:25 -0000

I've just come across these series of posts, Mark. (Has it been that long since I was last here?!) I look forward to digging in and reading them all.

I recently read a book by a Mennonite pastor called 'Never call them jerks.' It was about family systems management and difficult behavior in church; hugely helpful.

Re: A Systems Approach to Leadership, pt 8: Focus on Integrity, Not Unity

graham — Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:19:25 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:19:25 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 15 Dec 2005 05:16:30 -0000

Great interview, Mark. Thanks.

I've linked to it here.

Re: An Interview with Rodney Clapp

graham — Thu, 15 Dec 2005 06:16:30 -0000

Great interview, Mark. Thanks.

I've linked to it here.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 15 Dec 2005 06:16:30 -0000

Great interview, Mark. Thanks.

I've linked to it here.

Re: On Resistance (responses requested)

graham — Thu, 28 Sep 2006 06:54:54 -0000

Very interesting idea, Mark.

Powers that I'd love to read your thoughts on include: Greed, Poverty and Debt. They should perhaps be included under one Power (Mammon?), but it strikes me that Poverty is as much of a Power - rather than just a consequence - as Greed.

Also, Violence, Militarism, Consumerism, and Religion.

(Though they are obvious choices, things like sexism and racism seem like they are actually out-workings of something else.)

Do you know of Shane Claiborne at The Simple Way?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 28 Sep 2006 06:54:54 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 28 Sep 2006 06:54:54 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 29 Oct 2006 18:50:24 -0000

Great news, Mark. Well done.

Re: Resistance: An Update

graham — Sun, 29 Oct 2006 19:50:24 -0000

Great news, Mark. Well done.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 29 Oct 2006 19:50:24 -0000

Great news, Mark. Well done.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 07:33:17 -0000

So, is it any good?! ;-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:01:25 -0000

Hmm, tricky. I think I'd settle on:

Amos Yong

Scot McKnight (if only he'd specialise just a little)

John Francke

James KA Smith

James Alison

Denny Weaver

Re: Your Best Life Now: The BOARD GAME?!

graham — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:33:17 -0000

So, is it any good?! ;-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:33:17 -0000

So, is it any good?! ;-)

Re: top ten up-and-coming theologians?

graham — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:01:25 -0000

Hmm, tricky. I think I'd settle on:

Amos Yong
Scot McKnight (if only he'd specialise just a little)
John Francke
James KA Smith
James Alison
Denny Weaver

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:01:25 -0000

Hmm, tricky. I think I'd settle on:

Amos Yong
Scot McKnight (if only he'd specialise just a little)
John Francke
James KA Smith
James Alison
Denny Weaver

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:30:51 -0000

Oh, Ched Myers. I definitely should have included Ched Myers!

As for your new list suggestion, Michael, I like it but I think the discussion of anabaptist influence raises a problem. No anabaptist list would be complete without Hauerwas, who is clearly anabaptist, even if just with a small 'a'. Most identifications now seem to function a bit like "Charismatic", making them fluid and involving cross-pollination. So how/where would we draw the lines?

I think my list would end up looking no different to "My top 10 favourite theologians" (which is different - and more subjective - than "Top 10 best theologians").

Re: top ten up-and-coming theologians?

graham — Sun, 17 Dec 2006 20:30:51 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 17 Dec 2006 20:30:51 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 24 Dec 2006 01:41:33 -0000

Wow.

Well, assuming there's not another 'Graham Old' out there, cheers!

Have a great Christmas, mate.

Re: Top 5 for 2006: Blogs

graham — Sun, 24 Dec 2006 02:41:33 -0000

Wow.

Well, assuming there's not another 'Graham Old' out there, cheers!

Have a great Christmas, mate.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 24 Dec 2006 02:41:33 -0000

Wow.

Well, assuming there's not another 'Graham Old' out there, cheers!

Have a great Christmas, mate.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 05 Jan 2007 07:26:45 -0000

That's just tacky, man!

I linked to you, but just to demonstrate the depths to which some people will sink. ;-)

Re: Mendicant Beggary for the New Era

graham — Fri, 05 Jan 2007 08:26:45 -0000

That's just tacky, man!

I linked to you, but just to demonstrate the depths to which some people will sink. ;-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 05 Jan 2007 08:26:45 -0000

That's just tacky, man!

I linked to you, but just to demonstrate the depths to which some people will sink. ;-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 16:30:52 -0000

In all honesty, I think you should tone it down a little. It's not that your theological posts are too hard to understand, but sometimes they come a bit thick and fast.

I don't think I can ever claim to be high-brow, but it does seem that if I'm blogging on weightier topics then I have to space them out a bit, or slow them down.

Re: Quick Poll (please weigh in with full honesty)

graham — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:30:52 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:30:52 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:25:04 -0000

I would say that Jesus was being purposefully ambiguous; each group would have heard what they wanted.

I'm looking forward to your thoughts on Rm 13. I was about to post a dozen or so points on it, but I'll wait until you've posted to see if there's anything good to nick! :-)

Re: Church and State pt 1: Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s (but to God what is God’s)

graham — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:25:04 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:25:04 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 19 Jan 2007 01:41:19 -0000

Excellent news! Congratulations.

Re: Laptop Campaign: Success!

graham — Fri, 19 Jan 2007 02:41:19 -0000

Excellent news! Congratulations.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 19 Jan 2007 02:41:19 -0000

Excellent news! Congratulations.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 00:31:47 -0000

Am I missing something, or is that only half an apology?

'... the condemnation does not apply to today’s Mennonite Church USA' sounds a little like, "it was okay to say that then, but not now."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 00:37:02 -0000

Great post, Mark. This is a great way of framing things.

Re: Better Late than Never, I guess

graham — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 01:31:47 -0000

Am I missing something, or is that only half an apology?

'... the condemnation does not apply to today’s Mennonite Church USA' sounds a little like, "it was okay to say that then, but not now."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 01:31:47 -0000

Am I missing something, or is that only half an apology?

'... the condemnation does not apply to today’s Mennonite Church USA' sounds a little like, "it was okay to say that then, but not now."

Re: Tolerance versus Hospitality

graham — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 01:37:02 -0000

Great post, Mark. This is a great way of framing things.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 01:37:02 -0000

Great post, Mark. This is a great way of framing things.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:08:24 -0000

Pietism was certainly, as I understand it, more ecumenical in spirit than Anabaptism

What opportunity did the anabaptists have to be ecumenical?

Re: A Public Apology

graham — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:08:24 -0000

Pietism was certainly, as I understand it, more ecumenical in spirit than Anabaptism

What opportunity did the anabaptists have to be ecumenical?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:08:24 -0000

Pietism was certainly, as I understand it, more ecumenical in spirit than Anabaptism

What opportunity did the anabaptists have to be ecumenical?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 05:39:34 -0000

Hi Mark,

I can't believe I haven't properly responded to any of these posts yet!

Though I'd agree with most of what's in your other posts, I'm not sure that I'd go along with this paraphrase. It seems to allow too close a co-operation between the State and God. I'd also want to argue that God is 'in charge' of "America" in the same sense that he is in charge of Creation. I'm not sure that it makes any statement about how good or (usually godly) the State is. I find it preferable to think that God has set America in its place, namely under Him. And any authority she does has is from Him.

The passage is then a call to Christian Anarchy in that rather than asserting the authority of the State it is putting the State in its place as nothing but an instrument under God.

Re: Church and State pt 4: What Paul is Saying in Romans 13

graham — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 06:39:34 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 06:39:34 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:56:37 -0000

I didn't write the piece, Michael. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that the piece implies that King met Gandhi, merely that he travelled to India to study him.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 15:04:36 -0000

I may have misread your meaning, but I know that I wouldn't have been comfortable with a paraphrase like this:

'Instead, you should submit to them. Why? Because God is in charge and America is restrained by God. If you rebel against America, you will get slapped down.'

I wouldn't have used the word 'submit', personally. It also sounds a little too like, 'when you are slapped down you are actually being slapped by God'. I know that some would agree with that, but I'm not sure you would.

Re: nonviolence is at the heart of the Gospel

graham — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 15:56:37 -0000

I didn't write the piece, Michael. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that the piece implies that King met Gandhi, merely that he travelled to India to study him.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 15:56:37 -0000

I didn't write the piece, Michael. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that the piece implies that King met Gandhi, merely that he travelled to India to study him.

Re: Church and State pt 4: What Paul is Saying in Romans 13

graham — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 16:04:36 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 16:04:36 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:27:01 -0000

Yes! I love the emphasised part - and for some reason I'm surprised to read it from "God's Rottweiler".

Re: Papal Wisdom on Nonviolence

graham — Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:27:01 -0000

Yes! I love the emphasised part - and for some reason I'm surprised to read it from "God's Rottweiler".

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:27:01 -0000

Yes! I love the emphasised part - and for some reason I'm surprised to read it from "God's Rottweiler".

Re: Rethinking Church Staffing: An Alternative Lay Economist

graham — Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:32:57 -0000

My initial thinking is that it's far too much for one person to do.

However, I am cheered by the example of a church that is willing to finance someone who is not a leader, in the sense we'd normally understand that word.

Praying for your guys as you come to the end of this process.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:32:57 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:32:57 -0000

Re: Book of Prayer Bummer

graham — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:34:11 -0000

Hi Mark,

I can't believe that I missed this post!

I am so gutted for you, mate. I had just kinda assumed that this would go ahead as I'm convinced that there's a market for it. Hey, maybe if you'd have used the word 'emerging' in the title they would have taken it?! ;-)

I would also try Herald. They don't only do anabaptist books. Or, maybe try Paternoster. The Anabaptist Network in the UK has a good relationship with them. Let me know if you'd like to talk to a representative from the AN who has had dealings with Paternoster.

I'd like to be able to say something spiritual like, "just not the Lord's timing", but I guess we both know that's bollocks.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:34:11 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:34:11 -0000

Re: Palm Sunday

graham — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:13:01 -0000

We had a Palm Sunday service this morning (I wasn't leading). It was nice to do something a bit different and there certainly is something in the idea that millions around the world are doing the same - and have done for some time. However, the cynic in me kept thinking that all we were doing was prettifying the horror of the gospel.

We made the mockery of the triumphal entry into a nice march, the execution of Jesus into something to celebrate.

Historic mis-steps are still mis-steps.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:13:01 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:13:01 -0000

Re: IV West Bank Brochure

graham — Tue, 01 May 2007 15:01:48 -0000

Looking good, mate!

The Justice of Jesus sounds great. If you get any funding to provide a travel bursary to foreign attenders, don't forget your old British friend! ;-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 01 May 2007 15:01:48 -0000

Looking good, mate!

The Justice of Jesus sounds great. If you get any funding to provide a travel bursary to foreign attenders, don't forget your old British friend! ;-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 01 May 2007 15:01:48 -0000

Looking good, mate!

The Justice of Jesus sounds great. If you get any funding to provide a travel bursary to foreign attenders, don't forget your old British friend! ;-)

Re: The Atonement and the Embrace of God

graham — Thu, 03 May 2007 08:14:52 -0000

Good stuff, Mark. I've also taken to referring to the death (and, indeed, whole ministry) of Jesus as God turning his cheek.

However, I don't see any need to speak of the passages from Romans 3 and 5 in a traditionally penal way. In fact, I'm not sure that you do either, even if you claim to. I think it is more helpful to say, as you do, that the 'punishment Christ receives is the full consequences of a sinful humanity.'

I've thought of it as a consequence of sin being death to humanity (understood in an Eastern sense). When God then chooses to unite with humanity to fight Sin, he consequently chooses to stand with them in the suffering of death.

Nevertheless, good stuff!

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graham — Thu, 03 May 2007 08:14:52 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 03 May 2007 08:14:52 -0000

Re: Alternative Economics

graham — Sat, 05 May 2007 10:44:20 -0000

Nice list, Mark.

However, I wonder if quite a few groups would need some pre-steps before your ones. E.g. Confess our failure to name the sin of greed, discuss finances in the context of discipleship, or connect grace to giving.

I came up with a basic list at the end of a piece that I did a while ago on Jubilee: http://anabaptist.lifewithchrist.org/page/revol...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 05 May 2007 10:44:20 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 05 May 2007 10:44:20 -0000

Re: The Subersive Spirit 4

graham — Tue, 22 May 2007 19:26:25 -0000

I don’t believe creation is a static event in the past, but an ongoing event that breaks in from the future.

That section was excellent, Mark - and would be a good starter for what Len seems to be getting at.

I'd also want to plug Amos Yong.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 22 May 2007 19:26:25 -0000

I don’t believe creation is a static event in the past, but an ongoing event that breaks in from the future.

That section was excellent, Mark - and would be a good starter for what Len seems to be getting at.

I'd also want to plug Amos Yong.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 22 May 2007 19:26:25 -0000

I don’t believe creation is a static event in the past, but an ongoing event that breaks in from the future.

That section was excellent, Mark - and would be a good starter for what Len seems to be getting at.

I'd also want to plug Amos Yong.

Re: 10 years with Amy

graham — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:58:57 -0000

I'm somehow missed this when you first posted it, Mark.

Congratulations! I hope you had a great day.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:58:57 -0000

I'm somehow missed this when you first posted it, Mark.

Congratulations! I hope you had a great day.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:58:57 -0000

I'm somehow missed this when you first posted it, Mark.

Congratulations! I hope you had a great day.

Re: If I lived in Springfield…

graham — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:14:09 -0000

Your character's likeness is uncanny!

But, seriously, Shelbyville?!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:14:09 -0000

Your character's likeness is uncanny!

But, seriously, Shelbyville?!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:14:09 -0000

Your character's likeness is uncanny!

But, seriously, Shelbyville?!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 07:26:35 -0000

I tend to understand this in a Jubilee context. If forgiveness is then about granting and experiencing liberation, I guess it makes sense that we can only receive it if we are willing to give it.

Someone described it once as the river of God's grace. By jumping in, we receive it. However, it we are not willing to be part of the flow, we thus either have to jump out, or show that we have jumped into the wrong river in the first place.

I'm not sure that I'd now understand it in quite the same way, but I remember finding it quite helpful when I first heard it.

Re: The Lost Teaching of Jesus

graham — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 08:26:35 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 08:26:35 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:44:45 -0000

Don't take it down.

People either need to learn to lighten-up and laugh, or grow-up and get over themselves.

Re: Al Mohler Takes Stand on Emergent Profanity

graham — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:44:45 -0000

Don't take it down.

People either need to learn to lighten-up and laugh, or grow-up and get over themselves.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:44:45 -0000

Don't take it down.

People either need to learn to lighten-up and laugh, or grow-up and get over themselves.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:43:33 -0000

Gee, thanks! ;-)

Re: 1-2-3 Meme

graham — Wed, 06 Feb 2008 20:43:33 -0000

Gee, thanks! ;-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 06 Feb 2008 20:43:33 -0000

Gee, thanks! ;-)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 13:49:24 -0000

Hi Mark.

If I can comment on the discussion between you and Jonas, I'm pleased to read you say that the way of life you're advocating is “normal”. That would be a concern that I would share with Jonas.

However, I'm still tempted to suggest that though it may be unspectacular, it is still specialist, even if just sociologically so. I think that before we could see something like this as genuinely anabaptist it would need to evolve into a new new monasticism. As Jonas said, the structures communicate.

Jonas, I'm not completely sure what you mean by separatism. I think that, actually, there has always been a non-separatist anabaptism. Pilgram Marpeck would be a good example. So, it might be helpful if you could define exactly what you mean by separatism and how you would see it working our practically today.

Re: New Monasticism: Fringe Christianity?

graham — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 14:49:24 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 14:49:24 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 18:59:57 -0000

Mark, I'm sorry that I haven't time for more than hit-and-run comments. It's a great - and important - discussion that you guys are having here.

When I mean "specialist" I don't mean counter-cultural. On the contrary, I'd argue that many Communitarian groups have simply placed their culture on top of the current one. I meant instead that the sociological structure of many new monastic communities forces "membership" to be limited to the few, rather than the many. This leads to the situation that Jonas rightly laments where we have a two-tier approach to Christian life and discipleship.

I'm aware that there is a great deal of variety within the NM movement. In fact, I'm tempted to say that the 'movement' doesn't exist outside of the perception of it. This is where I think that Jonas has an important point to make. Is 'community' of 'NM' enough to distinguish these groups? Does an anabaptist, peace-making, Jubilee community really have enough in common with a Just War advocating Catholic group to be perceived to be part of the same movement?

I have contacts and friends that have been involved in communal Christian living for more than 2 decades. They have mostly flown under the radar. So, of course, I believe that it is possible and desirable. However, I'm nervous that the kind of attention seen in articles like the one above could actually derail a 'movement', when it should still be deciding what exactly it is - and why.

I'm not sure if any of that makes sense?

Re: New Monasticism: Fringe Christianity?

graham — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:59:57 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:59:57 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:04:18 -0000

Mark, this question of whether or not a community is a church is vital to me. In fact, you statement that 'when these communities say they aren’t a church, but an addendum to the church that functions as a specialized community apart from the church, it does certainly support some sort of elitism', it reflects some of my concerns above.

Re: New Monasticism: Fringe Christianity?

graham — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:04:18 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:04:18 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:08:58 -0000

Would it be useful to have a chapter (or, at least, an appendix) that sets this in a larger eccleisal context? Perhaps discussing groups throughout Church history who have followed a similar path?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:48:23 -0000

Jonas,

I'm not completely sure I understand your position here - and you'll recall that we've discussed this a couple of times before.

I would oppose pastors being paid a salary, but I have no problem with supporting other Christians for a ministry that could not otherwise take place. As Mark has suggested, both Paul and Jesus provide the model for this.

Re: Help Me Write a Christarchy Primer

graham — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:08:58 -0000

Would it be useful to have a chapter (or, at least, an appendix) that sets this in a larger eccleisal context? Perhaps discussing groups throughout Church history who have followed a similar path?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:08:58 -0000

Would it be useful to have a chapter (or, at least, an appendix) that sets this in a larger eccleisal context? Perhaps discussing groups throughout Church history who have followed a similar path?

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

graham — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:48:23 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:48:23 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 13:20:25 -0000

Thanks, Jonas.

I actually completely agree with all of that. However, I'm not sure that you're as primitivist as you think you are!

The reason I was asking for clarification is because I wasn't sure how that was relevant to what Mark is talking about here. He's not our pastor, after all.

Also, bearing in mind that I agree with your comment, I've always found the following quote insightful: "There is all the difference in the world between paying someone to do a job and releasing them to do a ministry." (Can't remember source.) Of course, why we assume that such 'releasing' must always be for the leaders is not clear to me!

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

graham — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:20:25 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:20:25 -0000

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

graham — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 12:28:25 -0000

Hi Mark,

I'm not sure I've got anything of any value to add. However, I have to confess that - without meaning to belittle anyone's views - I actually find it hard to believe that some people still think and act as if Christianity is "the right religion."

Cochs, I found this comment intriguing:

'A Buddhist is one who follows Gautama Buddha and a Christian is one who follows Jesus Christ.'

Is it accurate that Buddhists think of themselves as followers of The Buddha? I've also got to say that I know far, far too many Christians who don't strike me as followers of Jesus. So, I'm not sure that approaching questions like this in terms of the major world religions really sheds that much light.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

graham — Thu, 08 May 2008 19:58:51 -0000

'It takes nine months to be born of water, from conception to birth. it may take a lifetime to be born of the Spirit.'

What a wonderful line! Thanks, Ricky.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

graham — Thu, 08 May 2008 19:58:51 -0000

'It takes nine months to be born of water, from conception to birth. it may take a lifetime to be born of the Spirit.'

What a wonderful line! Thanks, Ricky.

Re: The Jesus Legend

graham — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:18:59 -0000

Very nice review. Thanks.

Re: The Jesus Legend

graham — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:18:59 -0000

Very nice review. Thanks.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:32:13 -0000

As an uninvolved reader, I just wanted to congratulate Mike on a great job.

Re: Co-Editor Position

graham — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:32:13 -0000

As an uninvolved reader, I just wanted to congratulate Mike on a great job.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

graham — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:31:11 -0000

Mark, my suggestion would be *not* to change the design. As an end-user, I'd say it does perfectly what it is intended for.

Having said that, if you are going to move away from Wordpress, choose Drupal, not EE.

Re: Calling all web designers…

graham — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:31:11 -0000

Re: Anabaptist, me?

graham — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 08:50:34 -0000

Hi Art,

Good to see you blogging again.

I wonder, from this post, how much experience you have of non-US and/or Non-historic-anabaptist-denomination-anabaptism you have? I as because much of what you write here simply does not ring true for me. That is, it gives an incomplete picture, at best.

Nevertheless, if the label doesn't work for you, there's nothing sacred about it. I've spoken to a couple of disgruntled Mennonites who said that if they lived in the UK they would be happier identifying as anabaptist. I presume the same is true for other countries, or for groups that are anabaptistic, but not direct descendants (e.g. Quakers and co.).

But I'm rambling now! :-)

Re: Steering Problems

graham — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:03:17 -0000

Hi Art,

Reading this made me think of your namesake, Gordon. Have you read anything of his?

Off-topic, what's happening with EA?

Re: Steering Problems

graham — Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:24:59 -0000

[quote post="8"]Arthur Gordon? Um no. Or are you thinking of someone else?[/quote]

Lol! No, sorry, I meant Gordon Kauffman. Aspects of this post made me think of his revisioning of theism.

Don't mention his name in some of those 'existing institutions' that you speak of though. Not everyone's a fan!

Re: Youtube Clones

graham — Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:56:32 -0000

Yuck!

Re: The Martyrs Den

graham — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:22:48 -0000

I love how I get blamed for this! :-D

'Following Christ is well beyond the idea of "It's better than Hell." You live the Kingdom of God. You do the Kingdom of God. If there is no Hell than we see more clearly how the way of Christ is mobile, active, participatory, engaging, growing, moving. There is no room for apathy. There is no place for idle bickering.'

My goodness, that's good! You can't blame me for that one.

'We can see the way of Christ as a way to bring people peace and freedom. The Kingdom of God then becomes a true Kingdom: all encompassing, all powerful, fearless and hopeful. With no Hell, Christ reigns not on the threat of wrath or eternal damnation, but on grace and love.'

Excellent thoughts, Eddie. Thanks.

Re: The Martyrs Den

graham — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:32:28 -0000

Let me guess...

Then one of the disciples stabbed Jesus and he struck them down with lightning. At which point, the Roman's called in their army choppers to nepalm them, but Jesus - who was also a Ninja - jumped up to the plane and knocked them all out...

No? ;-)