Hello!
The comments on this profile are unclaimed and thus are unverified.
Do they belong to you? Claim these comments.
St
Is this you? Claim Profile »
11 months ago
in Learn Japanese NOW! on Tofugu Comments
Is that 「完全マスター語彙 日本語能力試験1・2級レベル」 you're holding?
Anyway I totally agree with the sentiment. Japanese may be somewhat hard, but if it were easy it wouldn't be worth it, right? People sometimes have strange reasons for wanting to know Japanese, more so than with other languages in my impression. I study Japanese simply because I enjoy studying it, it gives me intellectual satisfaction. I do not intend to study Japanese in 10 minutes a day (reading nothing but manga of course) in order to one day live out orientalist phantasies in Japan with the Japanese as an embarrassed captive audience.
It's the same with all these people who claim Japanese textbooks are boring because they only want to read about manga or bushidou instead of learning how to talk to your superiors, how to exchange small talk in polite company or how to make sure you don't get ripped off in the store because you don't know how to haggle. Of course they're boring. You're just learning the basics, you're not entitled to have fun.
Haha oh I do sound awfully grumpy.
Anyway I totally agree with the sentiment. Japanese may be somewhat hard, but if it were easy it wouldn't be worth it, right? People sometimes have strange reasons for wanting to know Japanese, more so than with other languages in my impression. I study Japanese simply because I enjoy studying it, it gives me intellectual satisfaction. I do not intend to study Japanese in 10 minutes a day (reading nothing but manga of course) in order to one day live out orientalist phantasies in Japan with the Japanese as an embarrassed captive audience.
It's the same with all these people who claim Japanese textbooks are boring because they only want to read about manga or bushidou instead of learning how to talk to your superiors, how to exchange small talk in polite company or how to make sure you don't get ripped off in the store because you don't know how to haggle. Of course they're boring. You're just learning the basics, you're not entitled to have fun.
Haha oh I do sound awfully grumpy.
1 reply
koichi
yeah, I have like all the kanzen master 1級 books. They are so friggin boring, but have so much information (when it comes to grammar, though, much of it seems useless). Still, I like them a lot.
11 months ago
in The “No Gaijin Allowed” mentality on Tofugu Comments
"All you white people have it good!"
Ah really? I for one am a 7 foot 6 golden-haired honkey of pure Swedish ancestry, with DNA directly extracted from the melting water of the purest nordic glaciers and eyes as blue as those of the Dune Fremen. And don't get me started about my musculature... So what does that translate into in terms of social status?
Ah really? I for one am a 7 foot 6 golden-haired honkey of pure Swedish ancestry, with DNA directly extracted from the melting water of the purest nordic glaciers and eyes as blue as those of the Dune Fremen. And don't get me started about my musculature... So what does that translate into in terms of social status?
1 reply
Viet
Well... If you are a Fremen, then you are above everyone in terms of social status :)
Love the series btw.
Love the series btw.
11 months ago
in The “No Gaijin Allowed” mentality on Tofugu Comments
"My argument was not that Japan is worse than America, that was your interpretation of my argument."
Well let's see
"I certainly don't see more than one racially offensive sign a month living in Tokyo for the past 6 years, but I've never seen one in America for the 19 years before that. (Being white it's possible I missed some, but you can rest assured the mainstream media would have attacked such a sign like Debito does here and that hasn't happened to the best of my knowledge.) In this case, I don't think Japan is even doing the bare minimum. 1 sign is already too many."
I did interpret this as you implying that you think that Japan has a bigger racism problem than Japan, given that you say it performs worse with regard to the one form of racism that you can genuinely become upset about, namely illegal discrimination. If there a different way to interpret this, I'm sorry for not having notice.
As for human rights, that is, in my opinion, just a load of Anglo-American mid 20th-century hooey. I'm much more inclined to agree with the People's Republic of China that how a country organizes it's political system and how it treats it's people is part of it's internal affairs. Of course countries that violate said human rights can be quite unsavoury places, and we should our distance from them. There are of course extreme cases like genocide, but generally we should not try to impose our values and ideas on other countries. After all these universalistic human rights discourses contain no guarantee that they will not be abused in the interests of imperialism. But that's of course a completely different discussion.
Well let's see
"I certainly don't see more than one racially offensive sign a month living in Tokyo for the past 6 years, but I've never seen one in America for the 19 years before that. (Being white it's possible I missed some, but you can rest assured the mainstream media would have attacked such a sign like Debito does here and that hasn't happened to the best of my knowledge.) In this case, I don't think Japan is even doing the bare minimum. 1 sign is already too many."
I did interpret this as you implying that you think that Japan has a bigger racism problem than Japan, given that you say it performs worse with regard to the one form of racism that you can genuinely become upset about, namely illegal discrimination. If there a different way to interpret this, I'm sorry for not having notice.
As for human rights, that is, in my opinion, just a load of Anglo-American mid 20th-century hooey. I'm much more inclined to agree with the People's Republic of China that how a country organizes it's political system and how it treats it's people is part of it's internal affairs. Of course countries that violate said human rights can be quite unsavoury places, and we should our distance from them. There are of course extreme cases like genocide, but generally we should not try to impose our values and ideas on other countries. After all these universalistic human rights discourses contain no guarantee that they will not be abused in the interests of imperialism. But that's of course a completely different discussion.
2 replies
koichi
look how skiiiinnny this discussion is getting from all the replying.
both of you have interesting points. Anything that has to do with any amendment or any law has a lot of vagueness to it, thus the conflicting of opinions. I love it!
both of you have interesting points. Anything that has to do with any amendment or any law has a lot of vagueness to it, thus the conflicting of opinions. I love it!
darintenb
>I did interpret this as you implying that you think that Japan has a bigger racism problem than Japan, given that you say it performs worse with regard to the one form of racism that you can genuinely become upset about,
You have said before that I'm talking semantics, but ignore that very fact as you read. I'm saying that Japan has a bigger Discrimination problem than America, and that just being a racist is one's right. Just like it's one's right to pierce a chain form their bellybutton to their nose. While it's their right, I think both are truly messed up.
>As for human rights, that is, in my opinion, just a load of Anglo-American mid 20th-century hooey. I'm much more inclined to agree with the People's Republic of China that how a country organizes it's political system and how it treats it's people is part of it's internal affairs. Of course countries that violate said human rights can be quite unsavoury places, and we should our distance from them. There are of course extreme cases like genocide, but generally we should not try to impose our values and ideas on other countries. After all these universalistic human rights discourses contain no guarantee that they will not be abused in the interests of imperialism. But that's of course a completely different discussion.
I think that last statement makes it very clear that you and I will not see eye-to-eye on very much as China is beyond any doubt in my mind the most purest form of evil on this earth that no one has the balls to stand up against. (see further here: http://blog.darin-tenbruggencate.com/2008/07/11... )
Also, just for the record, I think you need to understand that I don't appreciate the racism here, and that I think it leads to the discrimination that I truly take issue with, but as long as it stops at racist thoughts and doesn't overflow into discriminating actions i think we should be hands off. (see: http://blog.darin-tenbruggencate.com/2008/07/23... )
However again, after your China remark, it's clear that we will not agree on much of anything. I'm not going to say you're wrong, but that I disagree eight million percent, and I would like to end this conversation (at least in the context of this tiny input box -- driving me bonkers) for now because there will be no mutual understanding between us as we have just very very different outlooks on the world and life.
You have said before that I'm talking semantics, but ignore that very fact as you read. I'm saying that Japan has a bigger Discrimination problem than America, and that just being a racist is one's right. Just like it's one's right to pierce a chain form their bellybutton to their nose. While it's their right, I think both are truly messed up.
>As for human rights, that is, in my opinion, just a load of Anglo-American mid 20th-century hooey. I'm much more inclined to agree with the People's Republic of China that how a country organizes it's political system and how it treats it's people is part of it's internal affairs. Of course countries that violate said human rights can be quite unsavoury places, and we should our distance from them. There are of course extreme cases like genocide, but generally we should not try to impose our values and ideas on other countries. After all these universalistic human rights discourses contain no guarantee that they will not be abused in the interests of imperialism. But that's of course a completely different discussion.
I think that last statement makes it very clear that you and I will not see eye-to-eye on very much as China is beyond any doubt in my mind the most purest form of evil on this earth that no one has the balls to stand up against. (see further here: http://blog.darin-tenbruggencate.com/2008/07/11... )
Also, just for the record, I think you need to understand that I don't appreciate the racism here, and that I think it leads to the discrimination that I truly take issue with, but as long as it stops at racist thoughts and doesn't overflow into discriminating actions i think we should be hands off. (see: http://blog.darin-tenbruggencate.com/2008/07/23... )
However again, after your China remark, it's clear that we will not agree on much of anything. I'm not going to say you're wrong, but that I disagree eight million percent, and I would like to end this conversation (at least in the context of this tiny input box -- driving me bonkers) for now because there will be no mutual understanding between us as we have just very very different outlooks on the world and life.
11 months ago
in The “No Gaijin Allowed” mentality on Tofugu Comments
Well, that's roughly the answer I expected. You only see those instances of racism which have a very direct, very tangible causal connection to concrete negative effects for the person experiencing it as having to be criminalized. And I'm inclined to agree with that.
But then you totally ignore that huuuuuuge social cost of constitutionally protected hate speech. After a lot of prodding I could get you to admit that you actually do care a little, but certainly not too much. What do you think has the most serious negative consequences for people as a social GROUP? Being barred from one or two public baths or restaurants and having a couple of jackasses driving around in a van spewing hatefull rants? Or having the media and entertainment industries portray you as a criminal (if you're African-American), a rapist (if you're African-American), a bandito (if you're hisanic), an illegal alien (if you're hispanic), an eternal other (if you're Asian-American) a terrorist (if you're Arab-American)...?
In conclusion, it doesn't attest to good judgement to focus all your anger and outrage on one form of illegal discrimination and downplay all the rest just because it is covered by the first amendment.
But then you totally ignore that huuuuuuge social cost of constitutionally protected hate speech. After a lot of prodding I could get you to admit that you actually do care a little, but certainly not too much. What do you think has the most serious negative consequences for people as a social GROUP? Being barred from one or two public baths or restaurants and having a couple of jackasses driving around in a van spewing hatefull rants? Or having the media and entertainment industries portray you as a criminal (if you're African-American), a rapist (if you're African-American), a bandito (if you're hisanic), an illegal alien (if you're hispanic), an eternal other (if you're Asian-American) a terrorist (if you're Arab-American)...?
In conclusion, it doesn't attest to good judgement to focus all your anger and outrage on one form of illegal discrimination and downplay all the rest just because it is covered by the first amendment.
1 reply
darintenb
So all of that means that 'no gaijin' signs are not a problem and i should smile and say "thank you for being better than america"?
No.
We need to strive to be the undisputed best at everything we do at all times, otherwise we will be destined for terrible things. In any ranking, there is #1, and dead last. Nothing in between. On the topic of racism and discrimination in Japan, the same is true. Japan is not the worst place in the world. But it’s far from perfect; and it’s not even the best. That means there is room to grow, and any complaint is a legitimate complaint that needs to be addressed fully without hiding behind the straw-man that is an example of something worse.
I want absolute perfection. I want the examples of racism in america you've given to go away, but I don't see why they have anything to do with the topic of discrimination in Japan other then to diminishing the wrong that goes on here because there's wrong in other parts of the world.
Go back and read my first post. My argument was not that Japan is worse than America, that was your interpretation of my argument. My argument that saying it's worse in America is a complete cop-out that says, "go ahead japan, as long as your not the worst in the world it's okay".
There will always be examples of worse things in the world. Hell, we may as well just round up all the Arabs and throw them in jail right? They can't be trusted right? Besides, Hitler took it one step further; he didn't just put a group of people in jail, he killed them too, so as long as we don't go that far, everything's okay.
Now I know very well that's not what you're intending to mean, and it's disgusting that I would even imply that is what you mean. You're taking the same approach as I am, just on the other end. Not a necessary wrong, but an acceptable wrong. For me, in order to protect my rights, I will deal with racist thinking people but I wont stand to have my rights taken away. As I see it, you think the occasional rights of some foreigner in Japan being taken away just aren't a major problem that takes priority when we look at other wrongs in the world. However, you're giving Japan a 'get out of jail free' card just because America isn't perfect, and I think that's just bad.
btw
>Or having the media and entertainment industries portray you as a criminal (if you're African-American), a rapist (if you're African-American), a bandito (if you're hisanic), an illegal alien (if you're hispanic), an eternal other (if you're Asian-American) a terrorist (if you're Arab-American)...?
All of that happens in Japan too just exactly as you've explained it. Some of it is probably imported from America, but it still goes on here. It may not happen as much because there just aren't that many foreigners, but whenever there is anything at all relates to a foreigner, the media, the people go out of their way to make a note of it and push the stereotype as far as possible. My favorite was a bank robbery not long ago. The description of the criminal? He looked like a foreigner. No further description, not even what color foreigner, just a foreigner. After all, anyone robbing a bank looks like a foreigner, that's what they do.
No.
We need to strive to be the undisputed best at everything we do at all times, otherwise we will be destined for terrible things. In any ranking, there is #1, and dead last. Nothing in between. On the topic of racism and discrimination in Japan, the same is true. Japan is not the worst place in the world. But it’s far from perfect; and it’s not even the best. That means there is room to grow, and any complaint is a legitimate complaint that needs to be addressed fully without hiding behind the straw-man that is an example of something worse.
I want absolute perfection. I want the examples of racism in america you've given to go away, but I don't see why they have anything to do with the topic of discrimination in Japan other then to diminishing the wrong that goes on here because there's wrong in other parts of the world.
Go back and read my first post. My argument was not that Japan is worse than America, that was your interpretation of my argument. My argument that saying it's worse in America is a complete cop-out that says, "go ahead japan, as long as your not the worst in the world it's okay".
There will always be examples of worse things in the world. Hell, we may as well just round up all the Arabs and throw them in jail right? They can't be trusted right? Besides, Hitler took it one step further; he didn't just put a group of people in jail, he killed them too, so as long as we don't go that far, everything's okay.
Now I know very well that's not what you're intending to mean, and it's disgusting that I would even imply that is what you mean. You're taking the same approach as I am, just on the other end. Not a necessary wrong, but an acceptable wrong. For me, in order to protect my rights, I will deal with racist thinking people but I wont stand to have my rights taken away. As I see it, you think the occasional rights of some foreigner in Japan being taken away just aren't a major problem that takes priority when we look at other wrongs in the world. However, you're giving Japan a 'get out of jail free' card just because America isn't perfect, and I think that's just bad.
btw
>Or having the media and entertainment industries portray you as a criminal (if you're African-American), a rapist (if you're African-American), a bandito (if you're hisanic), an illegal alien (if you're hispanic), an eternal other (if you're Asian-American) a terrorist (if you're Arab-American)...?
All of that happens in Japan too just exactly as you've explained it. Some of it is probably imported from America, but it still goes on here. It may not happen as much because there just aren't that many foreigners, but whenever there is anything at all relates to a foreigner, the media, the people go out of their way to make a note of it and push the stereotype as far as possible. My favorite was a bank robbery not long ago. The description of the criminal? He looked like a foreigner. No further description, not even what color foreigner, just a foreigner. After all, anyone robbing a bank looks like a foreigner, that's what they do.
11 months ago
in The “No Gaijin Allowed” mentality on Tofugu Comments
darintenb there's no need for you to assume that I didn't read your posts carefully. Nor is there a need to bring up the argument of authority or be condescending towards people who study (or "vacation", as you call it) in Japan for only one year.
As for the black vans, I know about them. I've never been in Japan, but I can't help but have the impression that they're far less usual in Japan than people / cars / state buildings flying confederate flags are in the southern United States.
But, back to the core of what we were arguing about. You claim that racism is less of a problem in the US because the ubiquitous racism I see in the large parts of the US is protected under the first amendment clause of the constitution, whereas the "no foreigners" signs that have been spotted on occasion in Japan is worse because it a kind of racism that affect someone very directly and was outlawed in the US in the 1960's. I do not follow that rather legalistic line of reasoning though. Whether something is legally protected or not does not determine whether it is something that sensible people ought to be offended by and concerned about. You brush it off because of the strict dichotomy you make between "discrimination", which you find outrageous, and "protected free speech", about which you say "One someone uses their free speech to be racist, it doesn't bother me.". However, from a critical legal theory standpoint, this dichotomy is untenable. One has to acknowledge that racism is a structural feature of American society and that it comes in many forms. You can argue that denying someone entrance to your business because of the colour of their skin is worse that constitutionally protected hate speech. But you cannot argue that just because Japan has a couple of cases of punishable discrimination it has a bigger racism problem that America just because America's ubiquitous racism falls within the borders of constitutionally protected speech.
As for the black vans, I know about them. I've never been in Japan, but I can't help but have the impression that they're far less usual in Japan than people / cars / state buildings flying confederate flags are in the southern United States.
But, back to the core of what we were arguing about. You claim that racism is less of a problem in the US because the ubiquitous racism I see in the large parts of the US is protected under the first amendment clause of the constitution, whereas the "no foreigners" signs that have been spotted on occasion in Japan is worse because it a kind of racism that affect someone very directly and was outlawed in the US in the 1960's. I do not follow that rather legalistic line of reasoning though. Whether something is legally protected or not does not determine whether it is something that sensible people ought to be offended by and concerned about. You brush it off because of the strict dichotomy you make between "discrimination", which you find outrageous, and "protected free speech", about which you say "One someone uses their free speech to be racist, it doesn't bother me.". However, from a critical legal theory standpoint, this dichotomy is untenable. One has to acknowledge that racism is a structural feature of American society and that it comes in many forms. You can argue that denying someone entrance to your business because of the colour of their skin is worse that constitutionally protected hate speech. But you cannot argue that just because Japan has a couple of cases of punishable discrimination it has a bigger racism problem that America just because America's ubiquitous racism falls within the borders of constitutionally protected speech.
1 reply
darintenb
>You claim that racism is less of a problem in the US because the ubiquitous racism I see in the large parts of the US is protected under the first amendment clause of the constitution, whereas the "no foreigners" signs that have been spotted on occasion in Japan is worse because it a kind of racism that affect someone very directly and was outlawed in the US in the 1960's.
Incorrect. The first line particularly.
>You claim that racism is less of a problem in the US...
No, I claim that the No Gaijin Allowed issue is not a non-issue, that it is indeed a very big issue. It is the exact same kind of issue as the you speak of racial discrimination in the south in the 50's and 60's.
'Strict dichotomy' is indeed something that I think is very important. You're talking about racism. I'm talking about discrimination. I don't care if someone is racist as long as they don't take it to an action which is discrimination. (Okay, I don't not care, they're idiots, but i'm willing to deal with it because the day they get prosecuted for thought crimes is the day I get prosecuted too.)
We're talking two different issues here, Racism vs. Discrimination. Racism is a thought crime, discrimination is a crime of action with it's basis on on the racially hearted thought crime. In America, one commits discrimination and they enter a world of hurt. In Japan, you get a slue of people defending.
I agree with you that racism is bad, and it does exist in America. BUT I don't care. I care about what hurts me. Some idiot in America driving around in a car that says kill all whities on the window is disturbing, but until he actually does it it's just a thought crime, and he's just a hick. Here in Japan, where I live, where I face this issue every single day, I care about not the guy in his truck with loud music and a big flag, I care about the guy who puts a sign up on his apartment that says he reserves the right to deny housing to foreigners and prostitution. Prostitution is illegal in Japan, and he puts being a foreigner in the same category with them. He reserves the right to deny a service to someone because of their race. That is discrimination, and that is a problem. And that is my ultimate point. Discrimination exists. Maybe it's not as big of a problem as Debito makes it sound, but the issue in itself, no matter how small, is automatically huge.
I agree with the things that you list as being 'wrong'. They disgust me too. But I'm willing to accept them because blocking them would block me as well. I only request from you that you accept that I agree with you on that issue, but that is not where I'm taking issue. Can you agknowledge that I agree with you on those issues as somehting that is wrong, BUT, they are not the subject with which I am taking issue? That my issue is denying service to someone because of their race is wrong, and is inherently a HUGE issue even if it happens only once in a while.
Or perhaps you are actually trying to say that some guy with a flag in his window is somehow more distractive to the human society than someone denying services to another because of their race? If that's the case, then I'm afraid I have nothing more to day to you because that has become a fundamental core of my life, and so far your argument has done nothing to change my feelings on that.
edit:
>Nor is there a need to bring up the argument of authority or be condescending towards people who study (or "vacation", as you call it) in Japan for only one year.
Sorry, but authority is an issue in this case. Someone who comes on a 1 year vacation who does not speak fluent Japanese can not understand the situation. No matter how well read, how well educated someone is on Japan, if all of their information is 2nd hand translated to English, they ultimately understand nothing. Once Japanese is translated to English, the translators bias is put through, words are changed. Just translating it to English removes it's from it's original Japanese context, form, and structure, changing it's meaning every so subtle, but that little bit is enough to void all benefit that would normally be gained from reading such materials. I don't mean to sound like an ass when I list my 'qualifications', but the bottom line is in this situation, they are extremely relevant because of the translation issue.
Incorrect. The first line particularly.
>You claim that racism is less of a problem in the US...
No, I claim that the No Gaijin Allowed issue is not a non-issue, that it is indeed a very big issue. It is the exact same kind of issue as the you speak of racial discrimination in the south in the 50's and 60's.
'Strict dichotomy' is indeed something that I think is very important. You're talking about racism. I'm talking about discrimination. I don't care if someone is racist as long as they don't take it to an action which is discrimination. (Okay, I don't not care, they're idiots, but i'm willing to deal with it because the day they get prosecuted for thought crimes is the day I get prosecuted too.)
We're talking two different issues here, Racism vs. Discrimination. Racism is a thought crime, discrimination is a crime of action with it's basis on on the racially hearted thought crime. In America, one commits discrimination and they enter a world of hurt. In Japan, you get a slue of people defending.
I agree with you that racism is bad, and it does exist in America. BUT I don't care. I care about what hurts me. Some idiot in America driving around in a car that says kill all whities on the window is disturbing, but until he actually does it it's just a thought crime, and he's just a hick. Here in Japan, where I live, where I face this issue every single day, I care about not the guy in his truck with loud music and a big flag, I care about the guy who puts a sign up on his apartment that says he reserves the right to deny housing to foreigners and prostitution. Prostitution is illegal in Japan, and he puts being a foreigner in the same category with them. He reserves the right to deny a service to someone because of their race. That is discrimination, and that is a problem. And that is my ultimate point. Discrimination exists. Maybe it's not as big of a problem as Debito makes it sound, but the issue in itself, no matter how small, is automatically huge.
I agree with the things that you list as being 'wrong'. They disgust me too. But I'm willing to accept them because blocking them would block me as well. I only request from you that you accept that I agree with you on that issue, but that is not where I'm taking issue. Can you agknowledge that I agree with you on those issues as somehting that is wrong, BUT, they are not the subject with which I am taking issue? That my issue is denying service to someone because of their race is wrong, and is inherently a HUGE issue even if it happens only once in a while.
Or perhaps you are actually trying to say that some guy with a flag in his window is somehow more distractive to the human society than someone denying services to another because of their race? If that's the case, then I'm afraid I have nothing more to day to you because that has become a fundamental core of my life, and so far your argument has done nothing to change my feelings on that.
edit:
>Nor is there a need to bring up the argument of authority or be condescending towards people who study (or "vacation", as you call it) in Japan for only one year.
Sorry, but authority is an issue in this case. Someone who comes on a 1 year vacation who does not speak fluent Japanese can not understand the situation. No matter how well read, how well educated someone is on Japan, if all of their information is 2nd hand translated to English, they ultimately understand nothing. Once Japanese is translated to English, the translators bias is put through, words are changed. Just translating it to English removes it's from it's original Japanese context, form, and structure, changing it's meaning every so subtle, but that little bit is enough to void all benefit that would normally be gained from reading such materials. I don't mean to sound like an ass when I list my 'qualifications', but the bottom line is in this situation, they are extremely relevant because of the translation issue.
11 months ago
in The “No Gaijin Allowed” mentality on Tofugu Comments
darintenb, you can't just brush it all off as "free speech". I gave you three prime examples of racism in the US
-The confederate flag, one of the most common displays of overt racism
-Hate groups, probably the most extreme form
-The succes of people who believe interning entire groups of people is justifiable.
Now ok from a legal-technical standpoint this may all fall under "freedom of speech", but that doesn't mean it isn't cause for serious concern. In fact I find this casual, trivialized racism far more disconcerting than the occasional case, perhaps punishable in the US and other countries, of foreigners being barred from a certain establishment. I'm curious what you'd think if a good portion of Japanese in areas with a large foreign population suddenly started driving around with a flag of imperial Japan stuck to their car if you'd know they did it just to stick it in your face, like people do with the confederate flag. I doubt whether you wouldn't find that racially offensive for 19 years.
-The confederate flag, one of the most common displays of overt racism
-Hate groups, probably the most extreme form
-The succes of people who believe interning entire groups of people is justifiable.
Now ok from a legal-technical standpoint this may all fall under "freedom of speech", but that doesn't mean it isn't cause for serious concern. In fact I find this casual, trivialized racism far more disconcerting than the occasional case, perhaps punishable in the US and other countries, of foreigners being barred from a certain establishment. I'm curious what you'd think if a good portion of Japanese in areas with a large foreign population suddenly started driving around with a flag of imperial Japan stuck to their car if you'd know they did it just to stick it in your face, like people do with the confederate flag. I doubt whether you wouldn't find that racially offensive for 19 years.
1 reply
darintenb
>Now ok from a legal-technical standpoint this may all fall under "freedom of speech"...
Exactly.
I'm not saying those people aren't stupid, in fact I've said just that every time, but they aren't breaking any laws in America. America probably has the widest legal protections of free speech you'll see, and probably the only western nation with no law against hate speech. Regardless these actions are all speech, not discrimination as nothing is being taken away from someone. These signs denying access to a business however are discrimination, and are illegal in any country advanced enough to have laws.
>I'm curious what you'd think if a good portion of Japanese in areas with a large foreign population suddenly started driving around with a flag of imperial Japan stuck to their car...
Clearly you've never been to Japan and thus have never seen the 'speaker trucks' or the large 'black trucks' that do just that. Again, these people are just as free to do that as I am free to call them idiots for doing so, because they are causing me no harm, hurting me in no way. However denying me access to someplace because of my race is indeed wrong.
I'm sorry we are forced to repeat the same thing back and forth as I fear you are not actually reading my comment.
I have said in every single comment that although such actions are the actions taken by idiots, they are protected by free speech, and they should be allowed to make it publicly known how terrible of an excuse for a human being their are. However, they are not discriminating against anyone in the legal sense of the word. Every time, you just give me more examples of people that do this, and every time I tell you the same thing.
What we see in America is protected by free speech as it is purely speech with no action. What we see in Japan is not because it is action that is taken based solely on racial prejudices. And after all, the topic of discussion is Japan is it not? So you can give me all these examples of things that bother you in America, and I will point you back to my first post, item #1 where Japan needs to do what is right because Japan needs to become a just country, not just do the bare minimum to survive.
I think you are misjudging me as someone who doesn't know much about Japan, but I assure you you are wrong as I'm not some random English teacher but instead someone who has studied everything from East Asia Studies to Law, and now Design in Japanese universities not as some 1 year vacation exchange but as a legitimate student that say for the exact same entrance exams as Taro or Hanako.
The underlying problem here in Japan is they do not have human rights, or the rights afforded to all human beings as law. In their 'human rights' section of the constitution, they have Japanese citizen rights, and as a non-japanese citizen, all rights afforded in the constitution need not apply. This is very different than from America for example, where human rights are the rights of a human.
Technically, there is nothing legally wrong with even these Japanese Only businesses, and that is why Debito could not fight his case until after he took his Japanese citizenship. You could say that as I am brushing off racism as free speech in America because it's legal, I must then do the same for discrimination in Japan because it's legal here. However I do not do so because I think America's laws are right, and Japans are not. Japan's legal system is ancient, decrepit, and corrupt. It was already behind the times when it was first instated, and was built on deceit the second time around as well as the Japanese language constitution that was ratified by the Diet was systematically and deliberately untruthfully translated from the English original, and that is why these problems are here today.
I think the US's stance of freedom of speech is the most appropriate for todays modern world, because just as it unfortunately allows racists people to say racist things, it allows you and I to call them out while at the same time prevents anyone form taking publicly or privately afforded powers and then fueled by their racists misconceptions to act negatively towards another. Here in Japan however, there are no such limitations.
Which is worse, Japan or America, is irrelevant. I shouldn't have brought the comparison up however most everyone here is American and I felt it appropriate for a frame of reference. The issue here is Japan is not perfect, and even if Debito and others make the situation seem worse than it is, the bottom line is it is not perfect, that 1 such sign is too many. And the attitude of it could be worse, or it's not that bad, just allows for things to remain anything less than perfect. I believe Japan should learn from the Lexus commercials in the states. The relentless pursuit of perfection. Instead however, Japan is currently in a state of doing the bare minimum and even then fighting and screaming the whole way along.
Excuse my long rant, most of which has been just a rehash of what I have said in every other comment, but it seems as though I have to say it again in order for anyone to actually read it for once.
Exactly.
I'm not saying those people aren't stupid, in fact I've said just that every time, but they aren't breaking any laws in America. America probably has the widest legal protections of free speech you'll see, and probably the only western nation with no law against hate speech. Regardless these actions are all speech, not discrimination as nothing is being taken away from someone. These signs denying access to a business however are discrimination, and are illegal in any country advanced enough to have laws.
>I'm curious what you'd think if a good portion of Japanese in areas with a large foreign population suddenly started driving around with a flag of imperial Japan stuck to their car...
Clearly you've never been to Japan and thus have never seen the 'speaker trucks' or the large 'black trucks' that do just that. Again, these people are just as free to do that as I am free to call them idiots for doing so, because they are causing me no harm, hurting me in no way. However denying me access to someplace because of my race is indeed wrong.
I'm sorry we are forced to repeat the same thing back and forth as I fear you are not actually reading my comment.
I have said in every single comment that although such actions are the actions taken by idiots, they are protected by free speech, and they should be allowed to make it publicly known how terrible of an excuse for a human being their are. However, they are not discriminating against anyone in the legal sense of the word. Every time, you just give me more examples of people that do this, and every time I tell you the same thing.
What we see in America is protected by free speech as it is purely speech with no action. What we see in Japan is not because it is action that is taken based solely on racial prejudices. And after all, the topic of discussion is Japan is it not? So you can give me all these examples of things that bother you in America, and I will point you back to my first post, item #1 where Japan needs to do what is right because Japan needs to become a just country, not just do the bare minimum to survive.
I think you are misjudging me as someone who doesn't know much about Japan, but I assure you you are wrong as I'm not some random English teacher but instead someone who has studied everything from East Asia Studies to Law, and now Design in Japanese universities not as some 1 year vacation exchange but as a legitimate student that say for the exact same entrance exams as Taro or Hanako.
The underlying problem here in Japan is they do not have human rights, or the rights afforded to all human beings as law. In their 'human rights' section of the constitution, they have Japanese citizen rights, and as a non-japanese citizen, all rights afforded in the constitution need not apply. This is very different than from America for example, where human rights are the rights of a human.
Technically, there is nothing legally wrong with even these Japanese Only businesses, and that is why Debito could not fight his case until after he took his Japanese citizenship. You could say that as I am brushing off racism as free speech in America because it's legal, I must then do the same for discrimination in Japan because it's legal here. However I do not do so because I think America's laws are right, and Japans are not. Japan's legal system is ancient, decrepit, and corrupt. It was already behind the times when it was first instated, and was built on deceit the second time around as well as the Japanese language constitution that was ratified by the Diet was systematically and deliberately untruthfully translated from the English original, and that is why these problems are here today.
I think the US's stance of freedom of speech is the most appropriate for todays modern world, because just as it unfortunately allows racists people to say racist things, it allows you and I to call them out while at the same time prevents anyone form taking publicly or privately afforded powers and then fueled by their racists misconceptions to act negatively towards another. Here in Japan however, there are no such limitations.
Which is worse, Japan or America, is irrelevant. I shouldn't have brought the comparison up however most everyone here is American and I felt it appropriate for a frame of reference. The issue here is Japan is not perfect, and even if Debito and others make the situation seem worse than it is, the bottom line is it is not perfect, that 1 such sign is too many. And the attitude of it could be worse, or it's not that bad, just allows for things to remain anything less than perfect. I believe Japan should learn from the Lexus commercials in the states. The relentless pursuit of perfection. Instead however, Japan is currently in a state of doing the bare minimum and even then fighting and screaming the whole way along.
Excuse my long rant, most of which has been just a rehash of what I have said in every other comment, but it seems as though I have to say it again in order for anyone to actually read it for once.
11 months ago
in The “No Gaijin Allowed” mentality on Tofugu Comments
@ darintenb
"2) I certainly don't see more than one racially offensive sign a month living in Tokyo for the past 6 years, but I've never seen one in America for the 19 years before that. (Being white it's possible I missed some, but you can rest assured the mainstream media would have attacked such a sign like Debito does here and that hasn't happened to the best of my knowledge.)"
Never seen one in 19 years? What about the confederate naval jack? You do know that people who use that thing often don't mean it as a sign of harmless regionalistic folklore, but do it with the precise intent of giving the middle finger to black people? To me that's even more offensive than a dry "no foreigners" sign, because it deliberately aims to make other feel bad or to intimidate them. And what about all the looney white power groups up there in the rocky mountains?
As for the "mainstream media", don't forget that one of the most popular pundits, Michelle Malkin, defended the internment of Japanese Americans. Not a peep about that form the mainstream media.
"2) I certainly don't see more than one racially offensive sign a month living in Tokyo for the past 6 years, but I've never seen one in America for the 19 years before that. (Being white it's possible I missed some, but you can rest assured the mainstream media would have attacked such a sign like Debito does here and that hasn't happened to the best of my knowledge.)"
Never seen one in 19 years? What about the confederate naval jack? You do know that people who use that thing often don't mean it as a sign of harmless regionalistic folklore, but do it with the precise intent of giving the middle finger to black people? To me that's even more offensive than a dry "no foreigners" sign, because it deliberately aims to make other feel bad or to intimidate them. And what about all the looney white power groups up there in the rocky mountains?
As for the "mainstream media", don't forget that one of the most popular pundits, Michelle Malkin, defended the internment of Japanese Americans. Not a peep about that form the mainstream media.
1 reply
darintenb
Sorry, I lived in the north where people have class so perhaps I'm not from the national average. Only time I've seen a confederate flag is on TV/Internet and other non-physical or in person forms.
But none the less, said flag qualifies as free speech, which I write off as "they're stupid", which is different from denying entry to one's store because of their race. Rest assured that in 2008, the second someone flying a confederate flag turned away a minority from their bar etc, they'd have their liquor licensee or foods business licensee revoked and a nice lawsuit on their hands.
Just last week a saw a sign for an apartment that said, "we reserve the right to refuse foreigners and prostitutes." Don't even get me started on housing in this country, that's a whole different mess that is so huge you could dedicate an entire blog to just that problem alone.
Edit: Your comment about Michelle Malkin is also an example of her right to free speech. She has a right to be an idiot and no one can take that away from her. Just so long as she doesn't do anything to take rights away from another. She may make someone feel bad, but locking the door to your business (not home -- that's different) is discrimination,and there's no two ways about it.
But none the less, said flag qualifies as free speech, which I write off as "they're stupid", which is different from denying entry to one's store because of their race. Rest assured that in 2008, the second someone flying a confederate flag turned away a minority from their bar etc, they'd have their liquor licensee or foods business licensee revoked and a nice lawsuit on their hands.
Just last week a saw a sign for an apartment that said, "we reserve the right to refuse foreigners and prostitutes." Don't even get me started on housing in this country, that's a whole different mess that is so huge you could dedicate an entire blog to just that problem alone.
Edit: Your comment about Michelle Malkin is also an example of her right to free speech. She has a right to be an idiot and no one can take that away from her. Just so long as she doesn't do anything to take rights away from another. She may make someone feel bad, but locking the door to your business (not home -- that's different) is discrimination,and there's no two ways about it.
1 year ago
in How to Study Japanese Over the Summer on Tofugu Comments
My $0.02:
"Oh you want proof Koichi? Below is a website by someone who learned Japanese to a native-level.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/all-j...
That's funny though because the author of that website doesn't provide any proof that he actually speaks Japanese at a native speaker's level. What he does do though is pimp amazon books with referral links that will probably bring in a good amount of money from people who buy into his ideas. That's probably not a bad business plan, because a lot of people who study Japanese, from my perception, are pop culture afficionados (which is of course fine) with little motivation to study hard and little tolerance for delayed gratification (which is terrible).
Second, and I know this sounds condescending and conservative, some of us just don't want to learn "real Japanese" if by real Japanese one means the Japanese used in anime and manga. Or the Japanese used by Japanese young people. Some people simply prefer formal, erudite Japanese with heavy use of keigo. That's just my opinion of course, and I'm probably an old fogey for thinking that way. Still, I think it's quite assuming for people to think that informal speech is somehow "more real" than grown-ups' speech. You won't learn the latter by just watching anime 8 hours a day (assuming you'll learn anything at all that way if you're over 16...). Our teachers always told us that extracurricular material (e.g. TV) are necessary to enhance your abilities, but cannot be used as a basis for learning any language.
And finally, the idea that language is just a bunch of words with no cultural or societal implications is simply naive. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypoth...
"Oh you want proof Koichi? Below is a website by someone who learned Japanese to a native-level.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/all-j...
That's funny though because the author of that website doesn't provide any proof that he actually speaks Japanese at a native speaker's level. What he does do though is pimp amazon books with referral links that will probably bring in a good amount of money from people who buy into his ideas. That's probably not a bad business plan, because a lot of people who study Japanese, from my perception, are pop culture afficionados (which is of course fine) with little motivation to study hard and little tolerance for delayed gratification (which is terrible).
Second, and I know this sounds condescending and conservative, some of us just don't want to learn "real Japanese" if by real Japanese one means the Japanese used in anime and manga. Or the Japanese used by Japanese young people. Some people simply prefer formal, erudite Japanese with heavy use of keigo. That's just my opinion of course, and I'm probably an old fogey for thinking that way. Still, I think it's quite assuming for people to think that informal speech is somehow "more real" than grown-ups' speech. You won't learn the latter by just watching anime 8 hours a day (assuming you'll learn anything at all that way if you're over 16...). Our teachers always told us that extracurricular material (e.g. TV) are necessary to enhance your abilities, but cannot be used as a basis for learning any language.
And finally, the idea that language is just a bunch of words with no cultural or societal implications is simply naive. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypoth...
- 0 points
- Jump to »
koichi
Totally agree with you on the "formal japanese" part (well, I agree with everything else, too, I suppose). I'm drafting up an article about why you should learn "textbook japanese" or "formal japanese." It's really important if you want to not make a fool out of yourself and be able to talk like an adult (or a productive member of society, for that matter). Thanks for your comment, and thanks for your input as well!
1 year ago
in 6 Reasons Why Kanji is Necessary on Tofugu Comments
7. Using more obscure kanji makes you seem more erudite.
8. Using kanji is more respectful towards the native speakers. I know this is nowadays a very unfashionable way of looking at it, but I fundamentally disagree with those people who claim that the proper usage of kanji (or grammar, or idiom, or whatever) isn't important because what really matters is that you "can get your point accross". I believe that it is a basic sign of respects towards the native speakers of any language that you show you are willing to take the hard road when it comes to learning their language.
8. Using kanji is more respectful towards the native speakers. I know this is nowadays a very unfashionable way of looking at it, but I fundamentally disagree with those people who claim that the proper usage of kanji (or grammar, or idiom, or whatever) isn't important because what really matters is that you "can get your point accross". I believe that it is a basic sign of respects towards the native speakers of any language that you show you are willing to take the hard road when it comes to learning their language.
2 replies
ikari7789
I completely agree with you St. When ever I e-mail my homestay mother, even if I don't know the kanji, I still make sure to use them for her sake. There's no point in me making things harder for her, when I can always quickly convert the kanji she sends me to hiragana to get their meanings.
JohtoKen
I can infer that this applies vice-versa to other languages such as English.
