Disqus - Latest Comments for Ron

Re: Bad Day

Ron — Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:11:42 -0000

Ugh. I got my car back. Minneapolis charges 133 for impounding fees PLUS 33 bucks for a parking violation.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:11:42 -0000

Ugh. I got my car back. Minneapolis charges 133 for impounding fees PLUS 33 bucks for a parking violation.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:11:42 -0000

Ugh. I got my car back. Minneapolis charges 133 for impounding fees PLUS 33 bucks for a parking violation.

Re: A Call for Conversational Analysis

Ron — Sun, 24 Apr 2005 23:36:31 -0000

She's doing well, thanks for asking!

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Ron — Sun, 24 Apr 2005 23:36:31 -0000

She's doing well, thanks for asking!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 24 Apr 2005 23:36:31 -0000

She's doing well, thanks for asking!

Re: Good Job CT

Ron — Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:28:37 -0000

I tend to agree Chris...yet I think we have to leave some room for acknowledging the power of art. If literature can point people to God, and film can, then so can paintings and architecture...even though they are the works of human hands. I think there must be some middle ground between the notion of sacramental (I'm using this word instead of sacred, because people always read the word sacred differently) space (which we both reject, I think) and the recognition that a work of art can point people towards God (and can in a sense, by implication, glorify God). I would be very interested in feedback on that.

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Ron — Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:28:37 -0000

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Ron — Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:28:37 -0000

Re: Chris, the Kingdom, and Jim Wallis

Ron — Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:41:44 -0000

Here's a quote from that article:

Hauerwas: Remember, [Yoder] always stayed away from that. There is no Lutheran two-kingdom view that ontologically just has to be there. The only difference is the difference of agency. Those who have been claimed by Christ have a different alternative in the world than those who are not. And that's part of what salvation is about!

Here's my beef: In all the emphasis that Wallis has brought in his new alternative, the basic agency of the church is assumed. He over-emphasizes the secondary ways in which the Church has agency. He is every bit as guilty of the constantinian trap as the religious right. That is my point.

Having said that, I don't think that Wallis sucks, or that he only cares about political issues. But I believe that he undersells the agency of the church (which I can really understand, because we have sucked at our job over the last 2000 years). The church has a different sort of agency than the rest of the world. If Christians want to get involved in "indirect" politics (ie, the agency of American politics), that isn't bad as long as they maintain their ecclesial agency (direct politics).

You can say, "Hey, Wallis isn't about that...and if you say he is, well...then you're just ignorant!" You can say, "hey, he says be active directly, but that message isn't broadcast by the media." But both of these statements aren't exactly true. Wallis' message is predominantly a political one. That is his platform. He has been pushing for a religous left for 20 years. His message isn't new...it has been around for a while, and it is only an alternative when compared to the Christian Right. The Christian Left may be better than a Christian Right, but I believe both perspectives fall fundamentally short (this is an idea that our man Hauerwas makes over and over again). Unless there is balance brought into the rise of the Christian left, it will be every bit as foolish as the Christian right--doing politics that makes Christ a poster-child rather than the radical center.

Wallis hasn't been doing a good enough job communicating the very things you say he affirms. He may indeed affirm them, but he certainly doesn't trumpet them as loudly as the political stuff.

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Ron — Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:41:44 -0000

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Ron — Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:41:44 -0000

Re: Chris, the Kingdom, and Jim Wallis

Ron — Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:33:32 -0000

Like Wallis, I don't want to divorce theology from politics. However, I think that he fuses them in the wrong way. I would like to hear how his view is fundamentally different from the religious right. It seems his theological perspective is based upon the same assumptions as the religioius right...it is just that he disagrees about the outcome. Both the religious left and right tend to force a morality upon the American people, and make Jesus their poster child...hence making Jesus irrelevant. Read Resident Aliens by Hauerwas and you'll get where I'm coming from.

Good conversation. In some ways I'm glad the church is struggling through this. My hope is, however, that people won't settle on camps on either side of the isle, but will instead press through to understand how we, as the church, can push through and be the church. And in this, I think the Pope has been (and hopefully will be) a better example than Wallis.

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Ron — Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:33:32 -0000

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Ron — Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:33:32 -0000

Re: Chris, the Kingdom, and Jim Wallis

Ron — Sun, 01 May 2005 12:41:49 -0000

I think in many ways, we agree. But I think we are looking at this from very different vantage points. I am much more skeptical than you are, Dale, about the way in which Christianity and the State can interact. It is through that skepticism that I interpret Wallis' role and message. And because of that, I don't think we'll be able to see eye to eye on this. It isn't a matter of me getting your facts and me changing my mind, or vice versa. The simple truth is that Wallis is posturing himself within the American political system to speak 'good news.' I am coming from an anabaptist perspective that sees such efforts as basically misguided.

I respect the Pope on his stance, because he speaks strongly to the nations essentially as an outsider...as someone outside the system. When priests get partisan or get enmeshed in the polical machines of their respective nations, the Pope has gotten a bit perturbed. Priests are supposed to be prophetic in the sense that they maintain their loyalty primarily and almost totally to the Vatican, but with concern for the nations in which they sojourn. From that vantage (of being more "outside" than "inside", if such a poor contrast and illustration can be made) they offer prophetic voice. This has been how the pope speaks to nations. And as a neo-evangelical, I think we can learn from that. I am skeptical of any efforts to influence the process fundamentally from within...since I want a more robust separation, and a clearer articulation of the primacy of our loyalty to the Kingdom of Heaven.

I know this sounds radical, but hey, I'm kind of a nut that way.

While the sojo approach to politics may seem less troublesome than the Right, that is only because it hasn't had the time to become entrenched within the system. The sojo message, in my mind, is essentially--"hey, the religious right has a monopoly, let's destroy that a bit while we let the pendulum swing our way."

I enjoy this conversation. I consider this a good example of good in-house debate. I don't think we're throwing rocks at each other, because I'm learning a bit and I think passionate debate and disagreement can be good things that Christians should do MORE of, not less.

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Ron — Sun, 01 May 2005 12:41:49 -0000

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Ron — Sun, 01 May 2005 12:41:49 -0000

Re: Good Job CT

Ron — Sun, 01 May 2005 23:29:28 -0000

You are making sense, but I believe the New Testament message is that the Temple has been replaced by the presence of Christ among his people, which for believers today is made manifest through the spirit-filled community. It would be a challenge to find a New Testament foundation for a theology of sacred space...in fact, the New Testament tends to dismantle (or more accurately, fulfill) the Old Testament theology of sacred space.

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Ron — Sun, 01 May 2005 23:29:28 -0000

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Ron — Sun, 01 May 2005 23:29:28 -0000

Re: Good Job CT

Ron — Mon, 02 May 2005 10:05:10 -0000

I'm indifferent. I think buildings are fine for places of worship; they keep out rain and other inclement weather. ;)

It is true that the apostles met in the Temple and whatnot to pray, but they never treated it like the Temple again. My only beef is when people treat church buildings as temples...the simple practice of meeting in a church on Sundays isn't troublesome at all...but people have invested such meaning into sacramental distinctions that no longer apply (church as temple, clergy/laity distinction, sacred days, etc.)

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Ron — Mon, 02 May 2005 10:05:10 -0000

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Ron — Mon, 02 May 2005 10:05:10 -0000

Re: Violent Ikea

Ron — Mon, 02 May 2005 22:00:42 -0000

lol. Well, the names are uber-cool to the rest of the world...that's why IKEA keeps them in swedish. It is part of the marketing mystique. This little post isn't a critique of IKEA, but of the crazed shoppers who are willing to trample others to buy stuff from IKEA.

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Ron — Mon, 02 May 2005 22:00:42 -0000

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Ron — Mon, 02 May 2005 22:00:42 -0000

Re: A Call for Conversational Analysis

Ron — Wed, 04 May 2005 16:02:56 -0000

Well, I'm in a hurry right now, so I'll briefly share a couple thoughts:

1) I think people are very skeptical and cynical towards the promises churches offer. They won't trust people when they say "my church is like that" because we are all too used to churches spining themselves positively to attract people.

2) While postmodernism values community more than modernism, I think individualism in American spirituality is stronger today that it was 10 years ago. We are a culture which breeds narcissists, people believe that they should have a church that is tailored to them. They want to discover the perfect church on their own, and are often unwilling to really listen to the suggestions of others. Just a couple thoughts.

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Ron — Wed, 04 May 2005 16:02:56 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 04 May 2005 16:02:56 -0000

Re: Pentecostalism and the Disconnect

Ron — Mon, 09 May 2005 12:48:16 -0000

Good stuff Tim. I am a "neo-charismatic" of sorts. I became a Christian in the charismatic movement and though I rejected it for a while, have become enamored with the Holy Spirit in the last few years. I decided to drop my beef with the charismatic church and start reapproaching the issues from both a biblical and theological vantagepoint. As someone in the emergent movement (sort of, at least...I'm not sure what the qualifications actually are *wink*), I am on the same page as you. I pray in tongues and all that junk. And while I'm all for leaving charismatic baggage behind, I think we shouldn't throw out the Spirit with the Bathwater.

Brandon,

It is true that pentecostals are often anti-intellectual. However, intellectuals are just as much anti-pentecostal. I think the role of the theologian shouldn't just be to set new agendas for the Church (if theologians even do that anymore), but to help it understand itself better. If this is part of their goal, then they need to address the radical testimony of the New Testament and the profound ways in which the Spirit is manifest in the Church.

We can only speak into global pentecostalism if we are willing to learn from it. Often, we take the stance of superiority. We need to stop that and start dialoguing when possible. They may be guilty of religious synchretism...but so are we. American Christianity is every bit as infused with consumerism as African Christianity may be infused with animism.

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Ron — Mon, 09 May 2005 12:48:16 -0000

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Ron — Mon, 09 May 2005 12:48:16 -0000

Re: More from Eugene Peterson

Ron — Tue, 10 May 2005 14:40:16 -0000

I don't disagree. But the outworking of the Gospel isn't exactly simple. If it were a simple task, then the New Testament would be 6 pages long. And while 1 Corinthians 15 is a telling of the Gospel events, it isn't an encapsulation of the Gospel, since elsewhere Scripture tells us that the Gospel is (among other things):

The reconcilliation between God and humanity
The reconcilliation between Jew and Gentile
The power of God unto salvation
The Kingdom of God is at hand
The coming of the Spirit
Etc.

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Ron — Tue, 10 May 2005 14:40:16 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 10 May 2005 14:40:16 -0000

I don't disagree. But the outworking of the Gospel isn't exactly simple. If it were a simple task, then the New Testament would be 6 pages long. And while 1 Corinthians 15 is a telling of the Gospel events, it isn't an encapsulation of the Gospel, since elsewhere Scripture tells us that the Gospel is (among other things):

The reconcilliation between God and humanity

The reconcilliation between Jew and Gentile

The power of God unto salvation

The Kingdom of God is at hand

The coming of the Spirit

Etc.

Re: Pentecostalism and the Disconnect

Ron — Wed, 11 May 2005 10:32:19 -0000

Waler and Michelle,

Let me address your questions briefly.

First, the primary texts used to support the idea of prayer language are:

1 Cor 14:2

"one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men, but to God."

1 Corinthians 14:4

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself..."

1 Corinthians 14:14

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful."

Romans 8:26-27

"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will."

Nevertheless, I find such scriptural support for a prayer language a bit weak. The teaching of scripture is that tongues exists primarily as divine utterance, and should be accompanied with interpretation. That doesn't rule out that it could be used in prayer. And I hardly see how it could be harmful. I say that we give liberty when it comes to personal tongues. When it comes to public utterance, however, it is definitely clear that an interpretation is needed.

On to the question of suppression of tongues. It has been my experience that both prophecy and tongues are under the control of the person speaking. Otherwise, Paul wouldn't ask the congregations to maintain order and limit the number of prophesies or tongues given in a gathering.

1 Cor 14:27ff:

27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two-or at the most three-should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. 29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

Many people misunderstand tongues. It isn't ecstatic speach. In other words, it doesn't sort of flow out of you in an uncontrollable way. Some people only can speak in tongues when they are having some sort of mystical experience...but such people are able to stop speaking in tongues at will. When I speak in tongues (yes, though it is little known, I do speak in tongues and yet I am still sane) I am able to start and stop at will. This is common for many people. Because I am able to have such a high degree of control over it, people often conclude that it isn't real...that I'm speaking jibberish. But millions have the same ability, and I've listened to myself and it is decidedly not jibberish. Though I can control when I stop and start, I am not controlling the sounds coming out of my mouth. They are astonishingly complex and intricate.

I realize that I've fueled the fire to continue talking about tongues...but can we move back to the question of how we as the church in the West can connect with our global pentecostal brothers and sisters?

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Ron — Wed, 11 May 2005 10:32:19 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 11 May 2005 10:32:19 -0000

Re: Yee Haw

Ron — Sun, 22 May 2005 03:27:03 -0000

Ant...I am hopeful. I think Emergent and other folks are desiring diversity more and more. People are begining to realize that we have so much to learn about our faith and to try to see it through one lens is foolish and anemic.

To the anonymous question-asker: We should be careful about using the language of consumption. I think it could have some uses, but only if we are able to consitently challenge and confront some of its darker shades. I would be open to "redeeming" the language of consumption, but currently we are utilizing it without much critique, and it is taking the "good" out of the "good news."

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Ron — Sun, 22 May 2005 03:27:03 -0000

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Ron — Sun, 22 May 2005 03:27:03 -0000

Re: Back from Nashville

Ron — Sun, 22 May 2005 11:52:40 -0000

I know that Efrem Smith at the Sanctuary in Minneapolis would consider himself the pastor of a post-black church. Efrem has been connected to Emergent for the past few years.

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Ron — Sun, 22 May 2005 11:52:40 -0000

I know that Efrem Smith at the Sanctuary in Minneapolis would consider himself the pastor of a post-black church. Efrem has been connected to Emergent for the past few years.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 22 May 2005 11:52:40 -0000

I know that Efrem Smith at the Sanctuary in Minneapolis would consider himself the pastor of a post-black church. Efrem has been connected to Emergent for the past few years.

Re: Clarification

Ron — Wed, 25 May 2005 17:15:51 -0000

Jesus uses hyperbole alot. Not to say that Jesus uses hyperbole has often led people to concluded that he didn't really mean alot of things that he said...like his statements about wealth, the kingdom, etc. HOwever, even when he uses hyperbole, it is obvious that he's stating it strongly to make his point abundantly clear.

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Ron — Wed, 25 May 2005 17:15:51 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 25 May 2005 17:15:51 -0000

Re: Wisconsin, the Crash and the Church

Ron — Fri, 27 May 2005 15:39:09 -0000

I think that issues like culture and class can be as divisive or more divisive than race, though race plays a large role in both culture and class.

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Ron — Fri, 27 May 2005 15:39:09 -0000

I think that issues like culture and class can be as divisive or more divisive than race, though race plays a large role in both culture and class.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 27 May 2005 15:39:09 -0000

I think that issues like culture and class can be as divisive or more divisive than race, though race plays a large role in both culture and class.

Re: Calling all Twin Citizens

Ron — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:51:44 -0000

Thanks to everyone who made it out. We had a good time. People are starting to show up because they found one of our "strategically placed" Pub Gathering bookmarks.

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Ron — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:51:44 -0000

Thanks to everyone who made it out. We had a good time. People are starting to show up because they found one of our "strategically placed" Pub Gathering bookmarks.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:51:44 -0000

Thanks to everyone who made it out. We had a good time. People are starting to show up because they found one of our "strategically placed" Pub Gathering bookmarks.

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Ron — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:27:16 -0000

becoming a multiracial church, part 5

Last weekend at The Vine, I was part of a panel discussion on racial reconciliation. I read excerpts from my blog posts on becoming a multiracial church. It was a good mix of presentations with personal stories, offenses, forgiveness, and (occasional)...

Re: A Call for a Non Partisan Sabbatical

Ron — Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:55:20 -0000

Blorge,

I think you're on to something there. What do you think the church can do to address that?

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Ron — Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:55:20 -0000

Blorge,

I think you're on to something there. What do you think the church can do to address that?

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Ron — Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:55:20 -0000

Blorge,

I think you're on to something there. What do you think the church can do to address that?

Re: The Passion of the Batman, part 1

Ron — Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:07:01 -0000

I used to be big into Spiderman, Thor, the Xmen, Batman, etc. Lately, I'm more into film than graphic novels. This paper gave me an opportunity to dig into a childhood love, but to do so with an eye to contemporary American culture.

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Ron — Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:07:01 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:07:01 -0000

Re: The Passion of the Batman, part 3

Ron — Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:01:02 -0000

Did they make two face and joker look older too?

Answer:Yep

Was the joker not participating in crime when the sons of batman killed him?

Answer: The Joker broke his neck fighting Batman, and to frame Batman he snapped his own neck the rest of the way, thereby killing himself.

Who killed bruce waynes parents if it wasn't the joker?

Answer: Some street thug named "Joe" or something. Joker is just one of many bad guys who started dressing in costume in response to Batman's constume. Batman donned the cape and mask in order to strike fear in criminals. Some criminals followed this example. In a way, Batman created his worst enemies...and each of his enemies is a personification of one of Bruce Wayne's psychological dysfunctions.

Do the sons of batman paint their faces in a similar manner to the crow?

Answer: Sort of.

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Ron — Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:01:02 -0000

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Ron — Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:01:02 -0000

Re: emerge, but for Pete’s sake avoid the kitsch

Ron — Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:28:32 -0000

I was hoping someone would comment on that! I'm actually growing appreciative of many within emergent...but for so many the whole thing can be boiled down to a template. I suppose i could have just as easily written "Christianity?"

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Ron — Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:28:32 -0000

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Ron — Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:28:32 -0000

Re: Quick Question about Missional Education

Ron — Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:34:05 -0000

Pat, are these courses offered only to those in your congregations? I would definitely like to get something started over here. Right now we're planning to offer one 10 week course this summer on Church History, but we want to offer more. I actually have been to Bethel Christian Fellowship about a half dozen times. Two sets of my wife's aunts and uncles and their family go there (and one uncle is an elder).

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Ron — Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:34:05 -0000

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Ron — Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:34:05 -0000

Re: Call Me Crazy, But… (my response to Emergent’s Latest Press Release)

Ron — Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:34:07 -0000

I agree, DJ. If things could just be simplified and clear, then they can just move ahead. Unfortunately, the language confuses the heck out of people coming into the conversation and can be counter productive. But I am on board with the wish for things just to move ahead.

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Ron — Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:34:07 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:34:07 -0000

Re: Of Illness and Mission

Ron — Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:11:05 -0000

Michelle, please do get that ladies name. We might not be able to get something up and running now, but eventually it would be cool. I think your suggestion to start helping through what is already available is very wise.

Mr. Dworak, I think once one hits 30 s/he should give up trying to dress cool and shave his/her head.

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Ron — Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:11:05 -0000

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Ron — Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:11:05 -0000

Re: Of Illness and Mission

Ron — Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:51:19 -0000

Pat, what do you tell those people who really want to make connections in Frogtown? What does your church do to help make connections? Does that rely alot on your kid's programming, tutoring, etc?

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Ron — Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:51:19 -0000

Pat, what do you tell those people who really want to make connections in Frogtown? What does your church do to help make connections? Does that rely alot on your kid's programming, tutoring, etc?

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Ron — Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:51:19 -0000

Pat, what do you tell those people who really want to make connections in Frogtown? What does your church do to help make connections? Does that rely alot on your kid's programming, tutoring, etc?

Re: Of Illness and Mission

Ron — Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:38:59 -0000

It is difficult. To me, the challenge is to be true to our calling without alienating people who don't live in the neighborhood. It is too easy to fall off one side or the other--either you make it seem like a neighborhood focus is optional and not that important or you make it seem like it is all-important. I think you, Brandon, have found a great balance. But it has come at great cost. The problem is that many who attend urban churches don't live in their neighborhood and often end up feeling left out and move along. I've heard this story from people at various urban churches. I don't see any way around it. Those who don't live in the "chosen" neighborhood have to decide 1) that they are going to pay the extra cost of being involved yet commuting in, 2) that they are only going to be marginally involved in the neighborhood, which often leads to feeling like an outsider in your own church or 3) they move into the neighborhood to make the whole thing easier. The only other solution is to not have an urban neighborhood focus at all.

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Ron — Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:38:59 -0000

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Ron — Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:38:59 -0000

Re: Music

Ron — Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:15:27 -0000

I somewhat agree. But there are more options than just singing or listening to a sermon. I think the key words there are "get more out of it." I think churches are doing greater and greater jobs of giving people something they feel they get alot out of...but all the while they are becoming less and less disciples. It is most certainly exciting to have great music, but I'm skeptical as to how transformative it is on its own. The early church seemed to alot of stock in dialogical teaching and fellowship and the Lord's Supper. But we also know they sang. How much they did of each of these is hard to tell, and even if we knew EXACTLY what they did, it wouldn't mean that we should do the same.

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Ron — Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:15:27 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:15:27 -0000

Re: Music

Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:05:35 -0000

I'm not sure what that last sentence means, Chris. re you saying that we shouldn't worry about importing singers, or that importing singers would be a bad thing?

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Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:05:35 -0000

I'm not sure what that last sentence means, Chris. re you saying that we shouldn't worry about importing singers, or that importing singers would be a bad thing?

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Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:05:35 -0000

I'm not sure what that last sentence means, Chris. re you saying that we shouldn't worry about importing singers, or that importing singers would be a bad thing?

Re: Music

Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:41:12 -0000

Chris. I feel like a mentally challenged mule that is being led forward by his master's carrot. I'm sure you're leading me somewhere, but I'm not sure where yet...

In other words, I'm still not exactly sure what you are saying. Are you saying that if a group doesn't care about who leads singing (so long as there is singing to be had) then they are making an assumption, and that assumption is that singing is an essential to proper worship?

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Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:41:12 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:41:12 -0000

Re: Music

Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:09:50 -0000

Yeah, but I don't know what you think, which is why I was asking again. I'm not being snarky, I just am having difficulty understanding what you are saying. The mule/carrot analogy is to make fun of me for not being able to understand what you're saying...I'm not trying to imply that you have somethign hidden behind your words. I'm just trying to figure out what you're saying. Could you just say it again another way. Sorry I'm so thick this morning.

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Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:09:50 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:09:50 -0000

Re: Music

Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:46:05 -0000

Justin...I completely agree. And that is what I was hearing Chris say, but I wasn't sure. At any rate, if we have friends that want to come "bless" us by sharing their music or art or poetry or a good word or with cookies, etc., that is a great and beautiful thing. Having brothers and sisters from other church communities come and encourage and support us is a great thing. But to recruit someone specifically to have them perform some service to us that we feel we lack is an odd thing. In that case, we are asking for their ability, not them, to come be a part of our community, and that is sorta impersonal.

But let us assume we had a glut of musicians in missio Dei, or we had a ton of friends who, like wandering minstrels, wanted to come and share their gifts with us? What role would you see music playing in the flow of a gathering (either a house gathering or the central gathering)?

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Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:46:05 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:46:05 -0000

Re: Music

Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:47:05 -0000

Oh, by the way, Justin--just because I answered your post right away DOES NOT prove that I am always by my computer...or does it?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:47:05 -0000

Oh, by the way, Justin--just because I answered your post right away DOES NOT prove that I am always by my computer...or does it?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:47:05 -0000

Oh, by the way, Justin--just because I answered your post right away DOES NOT prove that I am always by my computer...or does it?

Re: Music

Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:37:11 -0000

We have some differences from conventional churches, but for the most part, you are right. Our house groups might not feel all that different than some small group experiences, but that might not mean that our house groups aren't doing things right...it is just as likely that those small groups are actually doing church. As far as making the central gathering less like Baptist liturgy, well, it comes down to participation. As long as the only ones you have participating are the sermonizer and the songster, you're essentially stuck with something like church as usual. We've tried to open things up by having a Central Gathering devoted to prayer each month (though last time it was much more didactic than usual), and we've started having open ended dialogue and discussion at the end. And we've even opened up the begining for people to share whatever they want. In other words, the invitation to do things differently is out there, but I think it will take time for people to rethink what a meeting should look like.

To me, the difference should be, like I said, participation. House churches by their nature involve more participation. Some small groups do a good job at getting at this and are, therefore, very much doing the house church thing. But the way it SHOULD look, in my mind, is a loose and organic sharing of abilities and gifts. House churches should be open circles of friendship where a variety of needs are met. I see that happening in our house groups, and to be honest, I doubt very much some of the people who are involved at Missio Dei would find a fit in most conventional churches. So, while it might not seem all that different, the differences are subtle but important.

On another note, I don't think the problem plaguing most conventional churches is primarily one of structure. A church can have a central meeting and some limited small group activity and be much more healthy and vital and faithful than we are. I don't think we're trying to reinvent the church, it is more like we're trying to address some issues common to most churches by approaching it diffently.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:37:11 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:37:11 -0000

Re: Music

Ron — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:02:52 -0000

Maybe things like finding places to live for newly married couples from Michigan and providing things for various Guatemalan friends or the need for community and the need that most people that don't have the priviledge or desire to go to summer have for learning about Scripture or the sorts of needs that are brought to God in prayer or the need to feel heard and cared about. I know I am being a bit of a jerk, but you seem unable to see any of the cool stuff. You are right that things aren't as awesome as we want them to be, but there are good things happening too. It is partly a matter of perspective. To some, we are doing things just like every other church has ever done it. I mean, if you look at it the right way, every church is identical, because they usually involve a bunch of people getting together just to talk about Jesus and do a couple nice things here and there. What's so unique about that? I would argue that we are making some important, if unspectacular changes and shifts here and there. But in the end, I don't care too much about how innovative or amazing things are. I only care that we are learning to care for each other, learning to love Jesus together, and bringing new people into that love. And that is happening. If it happens at conventional churches too, then all the better.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:02:52 -0000

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Ron — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:02:52 -0000

Re: Music

Ron — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:21:00 -0000

lol. My hands and brains must have been disconnected at that point. I meant seminary, but obviously summer and seminary mean the same thing. Have a nice seminary.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:21:00 -0000

lol. My hands and brains must have been disconnected at that point. I meant seminary, but obviously summer and seminary mean the same thing. Have a nice seminary.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:21:00 -0000

lol. My hands and brains must have been disconnected at that point. I meant seminary, but obviously summer and seminary mean the same thing. Have a nice seminary.

Re: Hmm…back from the margins?

Ron — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:46:09 -0000

I thought about writing a review of the new batman movie, but the reviews out there already are pretty good, and my paper brings up most of the stuff I'd add. The only complaint I had was the action sequences at the end which were there merely to appease teenage boys. But I expected them to do as much. The best part of it was that it was a very serious portrayal of the nature of fear. It could have been deeper, but I'm sure they needed wide appeal.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:46:09 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:46:09 -0000

Re: Music

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:09:53 -0000

Yeah, that makes perfect sense, Brandon. And this is where things hinge on community building and open vulnerability. Most needs that get met are the obvious ones. The non-obvious ones (like most higher-order needs) don't get met because it is difficult for people to know about them unless you spell it out. Those sort of needs are met by a community when that community becomes open and honest and loving. That takes time. And we're working against some things like a culture of repression and non-confrontation and business.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:09:53 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:09:53 -0000

Re: Hmm…back from the margins?

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:40:00 -0000

You may be right, Brandon. Whether it is at an apex or already started on decline, I think it is safe to say that there are enough people who reject and protest (many of whom are within th emovement) to undermine the power position of American Evangelicalism.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:40:00 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:40:00 -0000

Re: Music

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:09:19 -0000

I think you're right about the repression thing. And even if we are horribly repressed, it won't change just because I say we are. You are dead on when you say our response should be to foster safe community.

The dysfunction piece is huge. I don't know how many times I thought my needs or concerns were blatantly obvious, only to discover that no one had any idea. In that momement I am faced with a decision to either: a)assume that no one cared enough to actually listen enough to know that I had a need or b)realize that I have to communicate things more directly. I think human nature often has us choosing A instead of B.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:09:19 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:09:19 -0000

Re: Music

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:12:01 -0000

Yeah, totally. I see alot of "A" happening in every intentional community...especially churches.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:12:01 -0000

Yeah, totally. I see alot of "A" happening in every intentional community...especially churches.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:12:01 -0000

Yeah, totally. I see alot of "A" happening in every intentional community...especially churches.

Re: Music

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:27:47 -0000

Good thoughts, Shaun. I am struck by the huge difference between being a slave to God and modern musical worship--which is quite often more like a way to self-transcend or have an elevating experience than it is an act of re-commitment to our servitude.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:27:47 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:27:47 -0000

Re: It’s not like I’m wealthy or anything

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:47:06 -0000

I feel like a huge failure in this. Sure, I've given to church and give money to help others all the time. But I spend more on myself and my wife WAYYYY more than I give to my poor brothers and sisters. I'm going to limit my going-out-to-eat budget and severely limit my entertainment budget. I'm going to lose weight so that I can find used clothes that fit me. We're still trying to get our 2nd car fixed so that we can sell it and use that money for other things. I want almost all my income tied up in things that help others and help signal the inbreaking Kingdom of God.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:47:06 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:47:06 -0000

Re: West Bank Tea Room

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:04:28 -0000

I'm serious about all this. Help get the word out, I need potential partners to explore this with. I've got some initial feelers out, but could use help.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:04:28 -0000

I'm serious about all this. Help get the word out, I need potential partners to explore this with. I've got some initial feelers out, but could use help.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:04:28 -0000

I'm serious about all this. Help get the word out, I need potential partners to explore this with. I've got some initial feelers out, but could use help.

Re: It’s not like I’m wealthy or anything

Ron — Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:46:08 -0000

You are welcome. I'm convinced that issues of consumption and affluence are central issues facing American Christianity. Our faith has always had a lot to say about interpersonal economics, but as wealth and consumption becomes increasingly enmeshed in our cultural fabric, it becomes more urgent to respond faithfully.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:46:08 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:46:08 -0000

Re: Bethel Seminary

Ron — Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:00:37 -0000

Yes Joseph, I am your boss now. I'm not sure whether I should promote you or fire you. It all depends upon my sovereign mood.

Anyways, yeah, I'm really pumped about this. Dr. Bourgond is going to probably have the course slotted for Spring quarter...if you know of any students that might benefit from the course (a few Kern people come to mind), it would help alot. I really want to have well over 10 people registered for it.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:00:37 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:00:37 -0000

Re: Sill-a-buss

Ron — Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:11:22 -0000

Todd, I really want to be sensitive to that reality. I think that I'll have students find a particular location that they know something about and get them anchored in that before they delve into the "what does that look like?"

Thanks Bernie...get the word out among sem friends. I'd hate to have this die due to lack of registrations.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:11:22 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:11:22 -0000

Re: Sill-a-buss

Ron — Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:33:53 -0000

Gregg, could you flesh out that with an example? I think I hear you, but would like you to flesh out your idea a bit more.

Jeremy, I'm sending you an email...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:33:53 -0000

Gregg, could you flesh out that with an example? I think I hear you, but would like you to flesh out your idea a bit more.

Jeremy, I'm sending you an email...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:33:53 -0000

Gregg, could you flesh out that with an example? I think I hear you, but would like you to flesh out your idea a bit more.

Jeremy, I'm sending you an email...

Re: Sill-a-buss

Ron — Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:19:13 -0000

Thanks Jeff...it makes a lot of sense to have students visit a church they are studying. I'll check out Doug's book. I am open to it, but I am worried that the book advocates a particular way of doing church, and I want to shy away from being too prescriptive with the course.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:19:13 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:19:13 -0000

Re: Organic Church Post

Ron — Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:22:38 -0000

Cool, thanks!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:22:38 -0000

Cool, thanks!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:22:38 -0000

Cool, thanks!

Re: Organic Church Post

Ron — Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:48:01 -0000

Richard, I agree. I don't think there is a problem with being a follower. I just think it is a problem when everyone always follows a few leaders in ways that stunts their development and erodes any sense of interdependence. I agree that it takes more time to work with a person to help them be released in their gifts. And many don't do that sort of thing because it does take a long time and is less noticeable. But in the long run, it is best for the Body of Christ. Thanks for the insights!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:48:01 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:48:01 -0000

Re: StrengthsFinder

Ron — Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:46:55 -0000

I think they are:

1)working harder strengths
2)working smarter strengths
3)helping others strengths
4)impacting/influencing

Here's where my strengths fall:

Strategic: working smarter
Communication: influencing
Input: working smarter
Activator: working harder
Command: influencing

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:46:55 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:46:55 -0000

I think they are:

1)working harder strengths

2)working smarter strengths

3)helping others strengths

4)impacting/influencing

Here's where my strengths fall:

Strategic: working smarter

Communication: influencing

Input: working smarter

Activator: working harder

Command: influencing

Re: StrengthsFinder

Ron — Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:08:08 -0000

I know 4 other themes that are in my top "9":

Competition
Woo
Context
Connectedness

Yeah, I think some strengths lend themselves more towards pastoral leadership. I think mine are more oriented towards missional type leadership than nurturing leadership. It is a good thing that my wife has strengths like Empathy and Developer.

What are yours, Justin? I'm really curious...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:08:08 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:08:08 -0000

I know 4 other themes that are in my top "9":

Competition

Woo

Context

Connectedness

Yeah, I think some strengths lend themselves more towards pastoral leadership. I think mine are more oriented towards missional type leadership than nurturing leadership. It is a good thing that my wife has strengths like Empathy and Developer.

What are yours, Justin? I'm really curious...

Re: StrengthsFinder

Ron — Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:55:59 -0000

Not TOTALLY different. It is interesting that we both have activator and communication. That means we both like to express ourselves and are both impatient. That sounds right... "go go".

I think it is interesting that you have discipline. I don't have much of that at all :) That is why you were always a better worker than me ;)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:55:59 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:55:59 -0000

Re: What is your ecological footprint?

Ron — Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:12:39 -0000

Joe, you are murdering my Mother Earth!

I think the quiz is helpful, but it is hardly exact. Most of the things that really consume resources are built into the fabric of our lives--travel and electricity.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:12:39 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:12:39 -0000

Re: Persecution and the Spirit

Ron — Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:39:31 -0000

I'm saying it is part of the reason. Now, I don't think we should be offensive just for heck, but I think a robust Christianity would be offensive to our culture. However, I think our freedom of religion and our roots in Christendom are also factors in why persecution isn't very widespread.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:39:31 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:39:31 -0000

Re: Persecution and the Spirit

Ron — Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:16:13 -0000

It isn't about stressing any robust qualities of Christianity. It is about living out the robust qualities of Christianity. It isn't as though we need to amp up what we're already doing until people get upset. It is about doing those things that Scripture indicates are normal, but society deems as abnormal. Here's a couple examples that pop into my head. Feel free to add or challenge:

1) It seems we are to respectful of boundaries...in other words, we know that there is a time and a place for sharing our faith, and those boundaries are dictated by society. What if students in particular, but maybe even workers at high schools, were to share their faith? I know that is extreme sounding, especially because it involves minors, but we should at least think about it before dismissing it.

2) Who are the Samaritans in our day with whom we should stand in solidarity? The lesbian? The muslim? The white trash racist? Christians should befriend those who are rejected by culture.

3) How about pointing out corruption and oppression within our churches?

While doing these things might not incite open reaction from the Government or society at large. People would get upset if we did these things.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:16:13 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:16:13 -0000

Re: inciting allegiance to Jesus in a society gone mad

Ron — Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:02:48 -0000

True.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:02:48 -0000

True.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:02:48 -0000

True.

Re: Persecution and the Spirit

Ron — Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:03:52 -0000

Indeed...or perhaps we should strive to be green tea in a soda culture.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:03:52 -0000

Indeed...or perhaps we should strive to be green tea in a soda culture.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:03:52 -0000

Indeed...or perhaps we should strive to be green tea in a soda culture.

Re: What is your ecological footprint?

Ron — Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:34:43 -0000

lol...apparently most of us here are raping several planets.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:34:43 -0000

lol...apparently most of us here are raping several planets.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:34:43 -0000

lol...apparently most of us here are raping several planets.

Re: Persecution and the Spirit

Ron — Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:37:35 -0000

I'd assume that the people that do those things have experienced unkind words. I think some persecution, at least verbal persecution does happen in this country. But it is remote and softened. Partly because of the freedoms afforded us and other cultural matters. But I also think it is because too few do enough and often those that do something don't go far enough. Let's use the example of Christians in schools. My experience in rural Minnesota, which is a place that is by no means hostile to the Gospel, was that very few students lived out their faith demonstrably in schools. Those that did were often made fun of (a form of persecution) and often the other Christian students didn't stand with the ones being mocked. I expect it is similar in many schools.

In other nations, people are being persecuted for merely professing faith. In our nation, which assumes that many are Christian and that this nation has Christian roots, it will take the peculiarity of the Christian life lived to provoke a response.

One last thought. I think many demonstrations of faith go unnoticed in this country because of the strong categorization between the social gospel and the preaching of the gospel. Many times, Christians do good deeds and they seem indistinguishable from the deeds of others. We have concluded that doing the deed itself is enough and one need not draw attention to Christ when one does the deed.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:37:35 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:37:35 -0000

Re: Persecution and the Spirit

Ron — Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:58:07 -0000

I would say that. But I would also say that not enough people are doing the right things. And some Christians are doing the wrong things.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:58:07 -0000

I would say that. But I would also say that not enough people are doing the right things. And some Christians are doing the wrong things.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:58:07 -0000

I would say that. But I would also say that not enough people are doing the right things. And some Christians are doing the wrong things.

Re: Pub Gathering: This Wednesday Night, 8pm at Town Hall Brewery

Ron — Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:11:45 -0000

Power Failure is as much about consumerism as it is technology (since both feed one another and have shaped the American landscape). Technology and consumerism have shaped our culture, and when Christians are shaped by this culture of consumption and technology, the Gospel is undercut. Here is a quote from the introduction that does a better job of summarizing the argument of the book than I can come up with:

"What kind of liberation is it that technology has promised? What sort of riches has technology produced? Do we in fact feel free? Are we truly prospering? These questions go largely unasked in our national conversation. We seem to be stricken with a subclinical malady of doubt and sometimes despair. But in this...trouble there lies hope as well. Perhaps underneath the surface of technological liberty and propserity there is a sense of captivity and deprivation, and we may hope that once we understand technology more incisively and clearly, there will be good news once again."

I haven't read Holding On To Reality, but based upon what I've heard about it, and who wrote it, I assume it is worth reading.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:11:45 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:11:45 -0000

Re: Pub Gathering: This Wednesday Night, 8pm at Town Hall Brewery

Ron — Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:13:40 -0000

Yes, the dutch reject trucks completely :)

Actually, I think "Van" simply means "from"...so "Van Steenwyk" means that I am from the town of "Steenwyk", which is actually spelled "Steenwijk" in Dutch.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:13:40 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:13:40 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 04 Nov 2005 10:57:31 -0000

I don't mind doing things the same way...but if you're going to criticize the way things have been done, you need to offer a real alternative. I feel that many emerging churches have offered some real interesting alternatives and have been creative. But many of our most notable examples have not. My problem is that the further we move along, the less people seem willing to innovate.

Having said all that, I sometimes think that we expect too much. You and I may say that a church likes Solomon's Porch is almost the same things as a regular church...but the subtle difference are often a VERY big deal to people. Let's face it--there is a lot of differences among churches. It is all how you look at it. If we get overly simplistic it is easy to say something like: "that church is like every other church--they sing and meet together and read their bible...how is THAT new?"

Re: Emergent Movement as Protest

Ron — Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:57:31 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:57:31 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 12:03:17 -0000

Blorge,

I know where you are coming from, but I'm not sure that everyone sees that landscape the same way. For me, cosmetic changes in churches (elements of style and whatnot) are superficial, but to some people the changes are profound. There are so many variables that can factor in to how people perceive change, and we need to be sensitive to that. However, from my perspective I think that the sorts of changes people trumpet as major changes are in fact minor in the grand scheme.

Re: Emergent Movement as Protest

Ron — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 13:03:17 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 13:03:17 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:25:25 -0000

Nope, that was me saying that, not them. I've used that metaphor alot since you suggested it...and even referenced it on this blog. I cited you then, but didn't this time.

Re: A Systems Approach to Leadership, pt 1

Ron — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 21:25:25 -0000

Nope, that was me saying that, not them. I've used that metaphor alot since you suggested it...and even referenced it on this blog. I cited you then, but didn't this time.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 21:25:25 -0000

Nope, that was me saying that, not them. I've used that metaphor alot since you suggested it...and even referenced it on this blog. I cited you then, but didn't this time.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:04:12 -0000

Nope Gregg, I meant "piers" the particular church in question is an oceanside church.

Re: A Systems Approach to Leadership, pt 1

Ron — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:04:12 -0000

Nope Gregg, I meant "piers" the particular church in question is an oceanside church.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:04:12 -0000

Nope Gregg, I meant "piers" the particular church in question is an oceanside church.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:20:57 -0000

A good example of a leader helping to energize the church within a systems framework could be seen in the way some leaders gather a group of people around a similar goal and help them to see the ways they can contribute to that goal. Or in a house group, a healthy leader can help be a "thermostat" in the room by helping maintain a warm temperature in the group dynamic--by being a relatively non-anxious presence yet occasionally raising the anxiety enough through challenging statement and questions. The leader be self-focused in the sense that he or she has clear goals for group health, and because the leader is confident in the worthiness of these goals, is ok with a certain level of anxiety. As the leader helps the group to navigate through challenging interpersonal dynamics, he or she could continue to raise enough anxiety to promote growth. The group will grow in its cohesiveness and health as each member is able to discern their contribution to the group. This is an anxious process for the leader(s), since they have to help in this process with a willingness to not be in complete control as they recognize the role everyone plays, allowing them to make their contribution without it being managed through the leader.

Re: A Systems Approach to Leadership, pt 4: Focus on Self, Not Others

Ron — Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:20:57 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:20:57 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:24:58 -0000

You said it much better than I could, oh wise therapist! While I don't think most seminary approaches to leadership (including Bethel's) is dictatorial, I do think there is an under-emphasis in systems approaches to church ministry and leadership. We tend to take our lead from the business world--which focuses on effectiveness and success--instead of areas like family systems theory--which focuses on health. Since the pastor in most churches is isolated and expected to be the burden-bearer of the church, there is a high rate of burn out and moral failure in our churches. Bethel's approach, which I believe to be ahead of most other seminaries' leadership training, focuses on developing godly character in leaders as a cure to this problem. However, I think this often fails to address the deeper systems issues, as well as the unresolved triggers in the pastor's life. I know that Sam Rima at Bethel Seminary is trying to address the triggers issue, but beyond that it seems like our family therapists are better trained to deal with church systems then our pastors. My personal conviction is that we should take the best of character-development training for would-be leaders and add some training on church systems theory. This should provide the core for the first 2 years of ministry classes. The 3rd year and beyond should be the time to work through issues of ministry effectiveness and specialization. This would provide a better seminary-based education for church leadership. Beyond this, I think we should commit ourselves to ecclesial reform. There are alot of new approaches to church ministry and structure, including some approaches which seek to destroy the clergy/laity distinction and reforge leadership in ways that are not only more biblical, but more faithful to context.

Re: A Systems Approach to Leadership, pt 4: Focus on Self, Not Others

Ron — Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:24:58 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:24:58 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:11:44 -0000

I think there are several reasons:

1) Lack of familiarity...it requires learning new concepts.

2) Lack of buzz...there isn't alot of momentum behind church folk exploring systems theory. There wasn't alot of buzz behind church folk exploring business models 20 years ago either; it took a few pioneers to recast business concepts into a function church model. I don't think systems theory will ever be trendy, but I do think it will continue to exert a slow, non-flashy, influence over the years to come.

3) Lack of clear application...systems theory elevates process over content, and since processes are harder to package, it makes it hard for people to "take and bake" core principles into their context. I think I just introduced a new slang for what happens when a leader takes the latest fad model and introduced it to his/her church: "take and bake."

Re: A Systems Approach to Leadership, pt 5: Focus on Strength, Not Weakness

Ron — Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:11:44 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:11:44 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:38:09 -0000

Nate...whoa! You really HAVE been trying to get a hold of me. I just found your message on my office phone too. I'm really sorry I've been so hard for you to get a hold of. Unfortunately, your phone didn't turn up when I searched my car.

Re: A Systems Approach to Leadership, pt 6: Focus on Process, Not Content

Ron — Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:38:09 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:38:09 -0000

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Ron — Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:58:53 -0000

Hey Gregg,

You cut out mid sentence; maybe Typepad only allows a certain amount of words. Could you finish your thought?

Re: A Systems Approach to Leadership, pt 3

Ron — Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:58:53 -0000

Hey Gregg,

You cut out mid sentence; maybe Typepad only allows a certain amount of words. Could you finish your thought?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:58:53 -0000

Hey Gregg,

You cut out mid sentence; maybe Typepad only allows a certain amount of words. Could you finish your thought?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:16:43 -0000

Thanks for the recommendation, Graham.

Re: A Systems Approach to Leadership, pt 8: Focus on Integrity, Not Unity

Ron — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:16:43 -0000

Thanks for the recommendation, Graham.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:16:43 -0000

Thanks for the recommendation, Graham.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:29:15 -0000

Just to tip my hand a bit, let me suggest that one of the appeals of fantasy is its openness to mystery. Fantasy provides the ultimate escape. In contrast, science fiction is usually bound by the laws which govern our universe and extrapolate a future reality within our own universe (with the exception of Star Wars, which is based in the distant past). In other words, science fiction attempt to be based in the possible, whereas fantasy escapes the confines of what is possible.

It would seem then, that our current fascination with fantasy may indicate either a desire to escape reality or to challenge the dominant interpretation of reality.

Re: The Decade of Fantasy

Ron — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:29:15 -0000

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Ron — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:29:15 -0000

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Ron — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:00:27 -0000

I'd agree about "Pirates" not being pure fantasy, and it is true that Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc. are retreads. However, fantasy has tended to fill a somewhat narrow niche in our culture. In the past five years in particular, however, fantasy has grown much wider in appeal.

Re: The Decade of Fantasy

Ron — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:00:27 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:00:27 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:26:17 -0000

Good question, Greggor. Steinke writes: "Anxiety provokes change. It prods and pushes us toward innovation or transformation. If, however, it reaches a certain intensity it prevents teh very change it provokes." Since for Steinke (and probably every other Sytems theorist), anxiety is only damaging when we "lose our cool," it is all a matter of degree. The key is self-differentiation. By being self-differentiated, we can respond without reacting, and we can mainain calm enough to search for truth and clarity.

Re: A Systems Approach to Leadership, pt 9: Focus on System, Not Symptom

Ron — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:26:17 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:26:17 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:26:54 -0000

Ryan,

Good suggestion. I'm falling in love with my sexy face being in the banner, but I could always just look in the mirror more often.

By the way, are you going to submit a proposal for the conference, or what?! If your in a time crunch, you could just send me a brief description and title via email.

Re: Yes, I know

Ron — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:26:54 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:26:54 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:40:11 -0000

I think Rick has changed his perspective...maybe you've helped in that process. My contact is Mark Paulson, who is the metro director, but I have also talked with Rick Mattson as well. Rick has been studying up on emergent stuff and I think he's come to the conclusion that strategic partnerships are worth the blurring of lines.

Re: Job News

Ron — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:40:11 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:40:11 -0000

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Ron — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 14:57:41 -0000

No, I get pro. It costs like $14 a month.

Re: A Systems Approach to Leadership, pt 9: Focus on System, Not Symptom

Ron — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:57:41 -0000

No, I get pro. It costs like $14 a month.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:57:41 -0000

No, I get pro. It costs like $14 a month.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 05 Dec 2005 16:10:07 -0000

They did indeed bring in other voices, but there was a focus on Lutheran voices. That isn't a bad thing, and I expected it, but I wonder how things would be different within different tradtions.

Re: A Tidbit from the Missional Church Consultation

Ron — Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:10:07 -0000

They did indeed bring in other voices, but there was a focus on Lutheran voices. That isn't a bad thing, and I expected it, but I wonder how things would be different within different tradtions.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:10:07 -0000

They did indeed bring in other voices, but there was a focus on Lutheran voices. That isn't a bad thing, and I expected it, but I wonder how things would be different within different tradtions.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:45:01 -0000

Nicole, the narrative of the Gospel doesn't change. Nor does the Bible, but the way we understand it does...and the way we articulate its meaning does. For example, what many conceive of as the Christian message is the substitutionary atonement--that Jesus received our just punishment for sins. For many (most) evangelicals, this IS the Gospel message. If you were to read 2000 years of Christian history from all the traditions of the church, however, we'd find many other ways that Christians have summarzied the Gospel message--and many of them have good biblical support (Gospel as reconciliation, Gospel as victory over Satan and death, Gospel as a new way of being human, Gospel as mystical union, etc. So, from a very real vantage point, the message--which is the theological meaning we draw from the Gospel narrative--has changed.

So, when I say taht we need to be theologically creative, I'm saying that we need to be thoughtful about how we read the Gospel and how we articulate it, rather than assume that the way we've always heard it articulated is the best way. We also need to be aware of our audience. Much of how Paul articulated the Gospel centered around the way that the Gospel brings down the wall between Jews and Gentiles--this is a HUGE theme in the New Testament. This no longer has the same meaning for us, but there are MANY implications that flow from the incarnation, life, death, resurrection, ascension, and final consumation of Christ (and Pentecost). None of which can be easily be boiled down into a tract.

Jeff, I applaud Emergent for working through these sorts of issues. I may not agree with every attempt, but I think it is a positive thing overall.

Re: More Thoughts from the Missional Church Consultation

Ron — Fri, 09 Dec 2005 23:45:01 -0000

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Ron — Fri, 09 Dec 2005 23:45:01 -0000

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Ron — Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:53:17 -0000

Let me just add something...I'm glad this conversation is happening. And I'd like to give Tony the benefit of the doubt. But language is indeed important and I think we need to make sure we hold our distinctives while we talk about commonality. I'll assume that Tony intends to do just that, but I'm a bit concerned about how he is defining "kingdom of God."

Re: What We Share and How We Differ

Ron — Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:53:17 -0000

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Ron — Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:53:17 -0000

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Ron — Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:59:47 -0000

Tony, I think my language isn't as precise as I would have liked. First of all, I think bridge building is good. But, we should bridge-build as Christians, as I'm sure you'd agree. My concern centers around the use of the phrase "kingdom of God." I think that there are inherent difficulties in talking with other faith groups about our shared commitment to the Kingdom of God when our very definition of what the Kingdom of God is tied up in Jesus Christ. I don't believe it is really possible for Christians to talk about the Kingdom of God in a way that isn't centered on Jesus Christ. So then, I think it is fair to challenge the assumption that one can effectively center cross-faith dialogue on a shared commitment to the Kingdom of God.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:00:56 -0000

I totally agree, Chris. That is why I really appreciate Vincent Miller's approach (follow the link to his book from my "recommended reading section"). Miller argues that we can only effectively resist commodification and consumerism in our actions because ideas are vulnerable to the effects of commodification.

Re: What We Share and How We Differ

Ron — Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:59:47 -0000

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Ron — Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:59:47 -0000

Re: An Interview with Rodney Clapp

Ron — Sat, 17 Dec 2005 14:00:56 -0000

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Ron — Sat, 17 Dec 2005 14:00:56 -0000

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Ron — Thu, 22 Dec 2005 15:35:34 -0000

I don't think we're as far a part on this matter as you think, Chris. I'm not in favor of completely dismissing the accreditation system. You and I have talked about having different "tracks" for scholarly students and those who want to focus on ministry. I'm basically asking for something similar. If the goal of an organization, or a particular program, is to prepare godly leaders for contextual ministry, I think we need to ask how to do that in the best way possible before we hamstring ourselves with accreditation. It may mean that we have some programs that are accredited for continued education, but I suspect we'd end up with some terminal seminary degrees which aren't useful except for simply training people for ministry. I guess I'm asking for more options, rather than a dismantling of our current options. Am I making sense?

Re: Towards an Urban Seminary

Ron — Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:35:34 -0000

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Ron — Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:35:34 -0000

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Ron — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 04:46:55 -0000

Yeah, I would have the same concerns. My thoughts in this post were pretty introductory...trying to get some thoughts flowing. I'm not a fan of having basically two seminaries. And I don't like the idea of having ministry students fluffing through without dealing with difficult scholarly issues and scholars fluffing through without dealing with difficult matters of praxis. However, there are some inherent flaws with the system. It is based upon a very fractured, segmented way of learning. It also helps feed the clergy/laity distinction.

And even if one tries to obliterate teh clergy/laity distinction on paper, you're still left with a huge functional divide between the learned and not-learned. Even if you have a very egalitarian church model, you're still left with a form of clericism within the academy and seminary.

I think monastic approaches or intensives approaches hold promise. I also think seminary as it is has a role to play, but I'm increasingly uncomfortable with the extractionistic approach seminaries are forced to have (take the student out of a ministry context). I'm also frustrated that once you train someone for 4 years, they carry so much debt that they are basically forced to become functional clergy. Those of us who don't like the idea of being "clergy" might say "well, I'll just go ahead and get a PhD so that I can teach for my job." But in the end, this is basically as much a priestly role as clergy.

So, how do we proceed?

Re: Towards an Urban Seminary

Ron — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 05:46:55 -0000

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Ron — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 05:46:55 -0000

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Ron — Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:02:23 -0000

I enjoyed it quite a bit, but it isn't a 2005 film. If it WERE, I'd probably put it at around my 16th favorite film of the year.

Re: Van S’ 2005 List

Ron — Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:02:23 -0000

I enjoyed it quite a bit, but it isn't a 2005 film. If it WERE, I'd probably put it at around my 16th favorite film of the year.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:02:23 -0000

I enjoyed it quite a bit, but it isn't a 2005 film. If it WERE, I'd probably put it at around my 16th favorite film of the year.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:39:02 -0000

Jason is a good guy--very entertaining. :)

Re: Van S’ 2005 List

Ron — Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:39:02 -0000

Jason is a good guy--very entertaining. :)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:39:02 -0000

Jason is a good guy--very entertaining. :)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 01 Jan 2006 19:04:43 -0000

Yes! CrosseXion!

Re: The Campus Ministry Name Game

Ron — Sun, 01 Jan 2006 20:04:43 -0000

Yes! CrosseXion!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 01 Jan 2006 20:04:43 -0000

Yes! CrosseXion!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:31:53 -0000

Thanks Alan. Great book by the way.

Re: Ministering to the Woodsman

Ron — Mon, 02 Jan 2006 20:31:53 -0000

Thanks Alan. Great book by the way.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 02 Jan 2006 20:31:53 -0000

Thanks Alan. Great book by the way.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 03 Jan 2006 00:37:40 -0000

All joking aside...I'm really leaning towards "the Jesus folk." I know that it could be sorta lame, but it is really simple, yet has a certain quality to it that could work well for west Bank students. I don't want something super cool or trendy, yet I don't want something generic like "West bank student ministry" that doesn't really communicate anything. "the Jesus folk" is unpretentious and not brand-ish, yet still has a sweet earthy quality that I dig. PLUS, thejesusfolk.com is available. In fact, I think I nab the domain name for shites and giggles, because I like it enough to use it for something else down the road even if we don't go with the name "the Jesus folk" for our student ministry.

Re: The Campus Ministry Name Game

Ron — Tue, 03 Jan 2006 01:37:40 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 03 Jan 2006 01:37:40 -0000

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Ron — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 14:39:36 -0000

I'm glad to know that someone out there is reading me :)

Simple folk is good...but the clencher for me is that thejesusfolk.com is available. It is so hard to find a good domain name these days :)

Re: The Campus Ministry Name Game

Ron — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:39:36 -0000

I'm glad to know that someone out there is reading me :)

Simple folk is good...but the clencher for me is that thejesusfolk.com is available. It is so hard to find a good domain name these days :)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:39:36 -0000

I'm glad to know that someone out there is reading me :)

Simple folk is good...but the clencher for me is that thejesusfolk.com is available. It is so hard to find a good domain name these days :)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:16:40 -0000

Brandon,

I do think you define "evangelicalism" more narrowly than I perhaps do. It is important for me to be free to be "in" because it is my religious tradition, and most of my Christian friends are within this tradition. The denomination in which I am a church planter is an evangelical tradition. I attend an evangelical seminary. I am not exclusively evangelical, but I am an evangelical. Maybe I should take the step and call myself a "neo" evangelical, but I don't like when folks come along, like Stetzer, and draw the "circle" more tightly than most other evangelicals and tell me that I can't be a part of the fellowship anymore.

Re: Revisioning the Church

Ron — Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:16:40 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:16:40 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:47:59 -0000

Hmmm...I don't know how that works, but typepad allows you to post somethings as text only and some as html.

Re: Promoting the Consumerism Conference

Ron — Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:47:59 -0000

Hmmm...I don't know how that works, but typepad allows you to post somethings as text only and some as html.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:47:59 -0000

Hmmm...I don't know how that works, but typepad allows you to post somethings as text only and some as html.

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Ron — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:26:10 -0000

April 28-29 in Minneapolis. The website has more info.

Re: Promoting the Consumerism Conference

Ron — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:26:10 -0000

April 28-29 in Minneapolis. The website has more info.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:26:10 -0000

April 28-29 in Minneapolis. The website has more info.

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Ron — Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:32:10 -0000

Yes, it does give us the right to criticize them. If we don't criticize the Church when it isn't being faithful, who should? If we don't think so, then we have no way of making sense of what Paul is doing when he writes to churches, often criticizing them for falling short of Christ's call.

I think it is fair to say that we should criticize in a loving spirit. If my post came accross as harsh or unloving, I'm sorry. I don't make fun of these things as someone who is outside looking in. I struggle with consumerism like everyone else. However, I find parody can be helpful in raising issues. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Re: A More Perfect Consumer Church, pt 2

Ron — Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:32:10 -0000

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Ron — Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:32:10 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:08:02 -0000

I just wrote a response, but it didn't show up! GRRR.

Gregg, basically I think that your insight points to one of the reasons that elders began to be raised up in local churches: sending letters of encouragement and reproof weren't enough. Wise guides were needed. These early elders were probably not "officers" or had any administrative power. Instead, they were recognized saintly folk who were examples and guides, and perhaps gate-keepers of the Gospel.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:07:14 -0000

Thanks David. You're book has been helpful in my thinking about these matters. I'm hoping to focus in on the question of Christian identity at the conference. It is a question that Missio Dei, my church, is struggling with right now. We're about 1.5 years into things and we realized that we had to induce "pruning" of sorts so that we can become clearer about our identity.

Re: A More Perfect Consumer Church, pt 2

Ron — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:08:02 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:08:02 -0000

Re: Discipleship in America, Part 2: The Problem with Individualistic Consumerism

Ron — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:07:14 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:07:14 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:57:24 -0000

I've been a bit timid in responding to your question, Pete...alot of Bethel folks read my blog and I don't want to get myself into trouble. So, let me just say this: I know a number of students, staff, and faculty that have come to the conclusion that the policy against alcohol is a sort of holdover, a vestigial limb if you will, of our fundamentalist past. There is no real logic behind the policy anymore, and I believe that to follow it simply in order to be faithful to the letter of the policy isn't sufficient enough reason to keep one's self from drinking. In principle, I see nothing wrong with occasional drinking. I have never been drunk, and never plan on getting drunk. Having a beer with someone, especially if you are the one buying, is a cultural bonding ritual of sorts. It is one of our contemporary ways of having table fellowship with someone. For these reasons, I see no reason to adhere to the policy, though I respect those who do. However, I can neither confirm nor deny that I am one of those who follow the policy :)

Re: DeLurking Week

Ron — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:57:24 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:57:24 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:03:57 -0000

Thanks Pete. For the record, when I came to Bethel, I signed the policy in good faith. I agreed to move forward with it because I thought it was the culture of Bethel. But here's the thing. Almost everyone I am close to at Bethel feels it is silly. I liken it to obeying the speed limit. It may be law to go 55 but our culture says you can go 5-10 miles over. No one will think it is odd or going against our culture to do so. And althought the letter of the policy is against drinking and smoking in all forms, the culture of Bethel is different. In other words, who Bethel actually IS as a seminary community is incongrous with who they are in writing. If I felt that I was leading anyone astray, or living in conflict with my brothers and sisters by having a cold one, I would have sufficient reason not to. But I don't feel the need to conform to a statement on a paper that has no real value. I might be living without integrity in this area, but if I am dishonoring anything, it is a document, not the Bethel Community.

Re: DeLurking Week

Ron — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:03:57 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:03:57 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:23:52 -0000

Discipleship in America, Part 4

According to Mark Van Steenwyk, discipleship in America is hindered by the power of capitalism. Despite the admission that hes not an economist, Mark argues that capitalism fosters self-interest. Hes right. Am...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 06 Feb 2006 16:44:59 -0000

I don't believe I said that possessing propety is bad. I don't think there is a clear line between good and bad on this one. It is something that must be discerned.
One the one hand, we should avoid gluttony, which to me isn't just eating too much food, but could be applied, I believe, to excess consumption of anything. If we have more than we need, we should share it. I think it is probably ok to have some luxuries, but I don't think I am the best judge, as a thoroughly Americanized person, to know when it is ok to indulge in luxuries. The fact is, MOST of many Americans' budgets go towards luxury items. Many other Americans only spend a portion of their income on luxury.

On the other hand, we don't want to be overly critical of people who are struggling with how to handle their posessions. It is simply hard to reach clarity on this issue.

I think the best way forwards is for disciples to start opening their checkbooks and budgets together for group discernment and critique. I know this in a horribly vulnerable thing to do, and I know that it opens things up to abuse, but I can think of nothing more needed these days. We, as Americans, have got to stop treating personal spending as though it were something personal. How we spend affects everything.

Re: Discipleship in America, Part 4: The Challenge of Capitalism

Ron — Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:44:59 -0000

I don't believe I said that possessing propety is bad. I don't think there is a clear line between good and bad on this one. It is something that must be discerned.
One the one hand, we should avoid gluttony, which to me isn't just eating too much food, but could be applied, I believe, to excess consumption of anything. If we have more than we need, we should share it. I think it is probably ok to have some luxuries, but I don't think I am the best judge, as a thoroughly Americanized person, to know when it is ok to indulge in luxuries. The fact is, MOST of many Americans' budgets go towards luxury items. Many other Americans only spend a portion of their income on luxury.
On the other hand, we don't want to be overly critical of people who are struggling with how to handle their posessions. It is simply hard to reach clarity on this issue.
I think the best way forwards is for disciples to start opening their checkbooks and budgets together for group discernment and critique. I know this in a horribly vulnerable thing to do, and I know that it opens things up to abuse, but I can think of nothing more needed these days. We, as Americans, have got to stop treating personal spending as though it were something personal. How we spend affects everything.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:44:59 -0000

I don't believe I said that possessing propety is bad. I don't think there is a clear line between good and bad on this one. It is something that must be discerned.
One the one hand, we should avoid gluttony, which to me isn't just eating too much food, but could be applied, I believe, to excess consumption of anything. If we have more than we need, we should share it. I think it is probably ok to have some luxuries, but I don't think I am the best judge, as a thoroughly Americanized person, to know when it is ok to indulge in luxuries. The fact is, MOST of many Americans' budgets go towards luxury items. Many other Americans only spend a portion of their income on luxury.
On the other hand, we don't want to be overly critical of people who are struggling with how to handle their posessions. It is simply hard to reach clarity on this issue.
I think the best way forwards is for disciples to start opening their checkbooks and budgets together for group discernment and critique. I know this in a horribly vulnerable thing to do, and I know that it opens things up to abuse, but I can think of nothing more needed these days. We, as Americans, have got to stop treating personal spending as though it were something personal. How we spend affects everything.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:23:01 -0000

Yeah, after talking to Pam a couple times I was impressed with her grasp of things. It is interesting that she focused on marital fidelity and singles being celibate. I didn't bring that up, though I agree with that. I wouldn't even have thought about articulating it, since it is a given. I wish she would have focused more on our commitment to the West Bank, since locality is huge for us.

Re: Minneapolis Star Tribune

Ron — Thu, 09 Feb 2006 17:23:01 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 09 Feb 2006 17:23:01 -0000

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Ron — Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:49:33 -0000

Thanks James.

Re: Discipleship in America, Part 6: The Church in Formation

Ron — Sat, 11 Feb 2006 14:49:33 -0000

Thanks James.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sat, 11 Feb 2006 14:49:33 -0000

Thanks James.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:50:55 -0000

Discipleship in America, Part 6

Disembodied wisdom is wisdom without practice or place. And the North American church has a lot of it. Whether we know it or not, like it or not, we traffic in it. Thats Discipleship in America according to Mark Van ...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:23:29 -0000

Well, this is a BIG topic of discussion. Here's my shorthand response: I don't know if it is possible for me to arrive at objectivity. Everything I observe I observe subjectively. God's perspective may be objective, but I only know God subjectively. Even if I were to say that Scripture presents objective truth (which I'm not sure it does), I could only know that subjectively.

Objective Truth isn't a very important category for me. However, I do follow Jesus as my Lord in a very authoritative sense. This is informed by my subjective reading of Scripture, my subjective undersanding of how the world works and my subjective experience of the Spirit. In the end, this places my relationship with God firmly within a relational understanding of God and how we relate (subjective) not in any external, objective realities.

Re: Common Critiques of Emergent and/or the Emerging Church

Ron — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:23:29 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:23:29 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:31:10 -0000

Dave, I'll grant your argument. I was referring to theological liberalism and conservativism more than political liberalism and conservativism. I may be a bit of a radical in some ways, but I'm definitely not a democrat (nor a Republican). The way I see it, if God isn't a Republican or a Democrat, why should I be? I'd rather put my eggs in the "church" basket rather than trying to utilize the democratic system to achieve Kingdom goals. At any rate, I think the emerging church tendency to embrace the political left is: 1) largely a part of being young...young folks tend to be more liberal and 2) a reaction against the beliefs of an earlier generation. It makes sense that if many 20 something emerging church people are frustrated with the status quo of evangelicalism, they'd be likely to explore other political options too--which pushes them into political liberalism.

Re: Common Critiques of Emergent and/or the Emerging Church

Ron — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:31:10 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:31:10 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:26:10 -0000

Totally...you are actually paying a COMPLIMENT to the "emergentsia."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:26:52 -0000

Wait...am I among the "emergentsia?"

Re: The Dominance of the Emergentsia

Ron — Thu, 16 Feb 2006 11:26:10 -0000

Totally...you are actually paying a COMPLIMENT to the "emergentsia."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 16 Feb 2006 11:26:10 -0000

Totally...you are actually paying a COMPLIMENT to the "emergentsia."

Re: The Dominance of the Emergentsia

Ron — Thu, 16 Feb 2006 11:26:52 -0000

Wait...am I among the "emergentsia?"

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 16 Feb 2006 11:26:52 -0000

Wait...am I among the "emergentsia?"

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:55:28 -0000

True, true. But design isn't insigificant. And I rather enjoy the design piece. But right now I don't want to put a lot of time into design. Since this new prepackaged theme looks fine, I'll stick with it for a while.

Re: The Everchanging Theme

Ron — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:55:28 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:55:28 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:14:42 -0000

I find it sad too, Jeff. But I can understand where they are coming from. It is easy for us to say that their understanding is flawed, but it is difficult to help them gain "new eyes." The really frustrating thing is that our conference addresses this issue, but most of the people who are going to attend the conference already sympathize with our perpective. How do we help the Church be true to its nature?

Re: An Alternative to the Consumer Conference

Ron — Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:14:42 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:14:42 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 01 Mar 2006 11:19:02 -0000

Sorry, I should have given more details:

1) This is not a Christian tutoring group, but a non-profit, government funded service center.

2) Mohammed has my number...and I'll work with him if he is willing.

Part of the reason I posted this is that organizations (including many churches) choose to focus on the many to exclusion to the few.

I know how I am to follow through with this: I will seek Mohammed and try to help him. But the larger question is: how do we, the Church structure ourselves, and how do nonprofits structure themselves, so that people like Mohammed don't fall through the cracks?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 01 Mar 2006 11:27:00 -0000

Yes please!

Re: Shame on Me

Ron — Wed, 01 Mar 2006 12:19:02 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 01 Mar 2006 12:19:02 -0000

Re: Shame on Me

Ron — Wed, 01 Mar 2006 12:27:00 -0000

Yes please!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 01 Mar 2006 12:27:00 -0000

Yes please!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:27:26 -0000

Indeed. If we use that definition, then what IS to say it is bad?

Re: Resistance is futile

Ron — Fri, 03 Mar 2006 15:27:26 -0000

Indeed. If we use that definition, then what IS to say it is bad?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 03 Mar 2006 15:27:26 -0000

Indeed. If we use that definition, then what IS to say it is bad?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 05 Mar 2006 08:58:14 -0000

I don't believe it is shoddy history at all. I think you are hearing the word "constantinian" differently than the way I am using it, which is by no means my own private useage; the word is being used today to refer to a gradual shifting into a certain way of understading the church/state relationship. Constantine, for obvious reasons, is a sort of symbolic figure for that shift. Some folks may blame Constantine and say that before Constantine things were good, and after him things were bad. I'm not one of them.

Re: Discipleship in America: Subversive Math and Neo-Monasticism

Ron — Sun, 05 Mar 2006 09:58:14 -0000

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Ron — Sun, 05 Mar 2006 09:58:14 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 05 Mar 2006 15:03:19 -0000

Tom, I never said I'm ashamed of myself.

Re: Shame on Me

Ron — Sun, 05 Mar 2006 16:03:19 -0000

Tom, I never said I'm ashamed of myself.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 05 Mar 2006 16:03:19 -0000

Tom, I never said I'm ashamed of myself.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 05 Mar 2006 21:40:24 -0000

I don't think I'm saying any of that. What I AM saying is that during late antiquity and the early middle ages, the way people thought about church shifted, especially in regards to its relationship with the State. This is what what is meant by the Constantinian Shift. I understand that anabaptists have blamed Constantine for this. Recent thinkers who have been influenced by anabaptist thinking are much more nuanced than that...though they still talk of a Constantinian shift, they merely point to Constantine as an example of a case in which the line between Church and State was blurred.

So the "baptism" I'm talking about is a sort of shifting into a new relationship with the state. This changed the self-understanding of the Church--what "church" meant became different, gradually. And it changed as American ideas filtered into the church as well.

Do you disagree with my understanding of things or what I'm arguing?

Re: Discipleship in America: Subversive Math and Neo-Monasticism

Ron — Sun, 05 Mar 2006 22:40:24 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 05 Mar 2006 22:40:24 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 06 Mar 2006 16:34:24 -0000

I feel like we're dancing in a circle here, Chris. You may object to the use of the word...but not everyone out there uses it in the way you are objecting to. You should try to offer a different term and get it circulating, rather than saying that the term is bad, since many who use the term don't use it in a way to critique Constantine per se.

Re: Discipleship in America: Subversive Math and Neo-Monasticism

Ron — Mon, 06 Mar 2006 17:34:24 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 06 Mar 2006 17:34:24 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 06 Mar 2006 22:34:59 -0000

Excellent! That wraps both of the "unholy" baptisms into one!

Re: Discipleship in America: Subversive Math and Neo-Monasticism

Ron — Mon, 06 Mar 2006 23:34:59 -0000

Excellent! That wraps both of the "unholy" baptisms into one!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 06 Mar 2006 23:34:59 -0000

Excellent! That wraps both of the "unholy" baptisms into one!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 07 Mar 2006 22:51:58 -0000

That stinks...I guess some people are just close minded and stubborn. The funny thing isn't that this is a "agree to disagree" thing as the guy claims. It is simply about misunderstanding and misinformation. This is the first time that I've ever hear someone say that mysticism in all forms is uniquivocally bad.

Re: Can you believe this?

Ron — Tue, 07 Mar 2006 23:51:58 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 10:10:33 -0000

Yes, I think you are right Brandon. We should refer to it as the "Shift into Christendom".

Re: Discipleship in America: Subversive Math and Neo-Monasticism

Ron — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:10:33 -0000

Yes, I think you are right Brandon. We should refer to it as the "Shift into Christendom".

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:10:33 -0000

Yes, I think you are right Brandon. We should refer to it as the "Shift into Christendom".

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:30:10 -0000

I like the idea of bringing lamentation back into our worship experience. I'm not familiar with the liturgical tradition and/or prayer hours...do you know if there is much time given to lament and grief?

I like your post overall. I would like to challenge one statement though: "Yet those who cry out in the church today are more likely to be accused of sinning than they are of worshiping." My experience is that churches give people freedom to express grief, but not to express anger.

Re: thanksgiving or angst-giving?

Ron — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:30:10 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:30:10 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Dec 2006 14:14:48 -0000

Luke,

I have the same impression of Jesus. The tricky thing is that God the Father indeed called his people to slaughter the wicked. This seeming discrepancy is why there have always been folks within Christianity who see Jesus as antithetical to God the Father. Early Christians that were influenced by gnosticism saw the Old Testament God as basically evil (a demiurge) and Jesus (the New Testament God) as basically good. While most Christians wouldn't pit Yahweh and Jesus against one another, there is most certainly a tension there.

The intriguing thing about all of this is that Jesus claims to be a accurate depiction of God the Father--if you want to know what God the Father is like, look at Jesus. Paul (I think) said that Jesus is "the image of the Invisible God." If this is the case, why is it, then, that God seems like a warmonger in the Old Testament, yet Jesus seems like a hippie?

It all comes down to Jesus. If Jesus took the evil of humanity upon himself on the Cross, then there is no longer a need for God to punish the wicked with the Israeli Army. This is why there is now no room for vengeance or the death penalty or any sort of violence--Jesus has done away with any need for such punishment. I believe that to commit an act of violence against another person is tantamount to rejecting the work of Jesus Christ upon the Cross.

You ask "if a madman runs down the street killing people, isn't the best way to love him and others to stop him?" Yes, I think it is. But there is a big difference between stopping a madman and killing him. I am all for physical restraint--I'm simply not for physical violence. For me, the difference is whether or not the goal of the action is to retrain or to destroy. There is indeed a fine line, but I think we have to try to draw the line somewhere, at least tentatively.

Re: The Folly of Pacifism in a Broken World

Ron — Fri, 01 Dec 2006 15:14:48 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 01 Dec 2006 15:14:48 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 04 Dec 2006 14:15:38 -0000

I don't know if there has ever been a scenario where there has been a madman with his fingers on a nuclear missile launch button that could swiftly be killed without another person to take his place. The situation is absurd. The only madmen with nukes are surrounded by institutional madmen who would gladly take their place in the event of assassination.

However, let me just humor the scenario and say what should be done. If he can't be reasoned with and he can't be restrained then I see no reason not to use non-lethal force (like knockout gas or a tazer gun). I'm not convinced that a bullet is a more effective way of neutralizing threat than knockout gas or tazer guns.

Here's the thing: Christians are a different sort of people than other people. Let the dead defend the dead. We are called to lay down our lives before killing others. Jesus suffered and died for the sake of others, even though he could have called the Nation of Israel up in revolt against Rome. Jesus has the power to take down the oppressive power of Rome. I'm not sure it is our job, as the People of God to protect people, but it is instead to suffer for people. We, like Jesus, are to turn the other cheek, even if it means our death.

David, your question about dealing with folks who believe it is their religious obligation to destroy nations leads down the dark path of preemptive violence. It is the same rationale that we use to justify the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One must believe that the ends justify the means with such a coarse of action. To vaporize many innocent men, women, and children for the greater good seems to be the sort of issues that rulers must grapple with for the sake of power, but I don't see why the People of God should consider such options.

If Jesus had the power to stop systemic violence, yet didn't, what does it tell us? For some reason, Jesus' response to violence was to embrace it as a cosmic victim, rather than to meet it with force. The question is: Did Jesus only do that to secure our eternal place in heaven, or is it a way of life we ought to embrace as well?

Luke, I'm still thinking about your latest comment. When I can, I will write a new post specifically about the issues you raise.

Re: God is a Warmonger? Jesus is a hippie?

Ron — Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:15:38 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:15:38 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 03 Jan 2007 08:30:43 -0000

Luke,

I'll look into the formatting issue; thank you for the heads-up.

I've thought through the two-books idea and realized that the best approach is to write one book. That means that this book will be a bit more basic and accessible than I had intended for the "resistance" part of the book. I think that is a good thing; it allows me to get the basic idea across and then to write a follow-up book or books that go deeper.

Re: I couldn’t help myself: Responding to a Critic of the Emerging Church

Ron — Wed, 03 Jan 2007 09:30:43 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 03 Jan 2007 09:30:43 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:27:12 -0000

Thanks. I've definitely gotten better at design in the past two years, but I think I lucked out with this design. It not only looks better, but it feels more cohesive than my old blog.

By the way Dave, I got your message. Sorry I was unable to answer your call; I would have liked to grab a cup o' coffee with you.

Re: I couldn’t help myself: Responding to a Critic of the Emerging Church

Ron — Wed, 03 Jan 2007 22:27:12 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 03 Jan 2007 22:27:12 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 04 Jan 2007 18:35:05 -0000

I'd have you know that most of my readers bathe regularly! (by regularly, I mean twice a month). :)

Re: Mendicant Beggary for the New Era

Ron — Thu, 04 Jan 2007 19:35:05 -0000

I'd have you know that most of my readers bathe regularly! (by regularly, I mean twice a month). :)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 04 Jan 2007 19:35:05 -0000

I'd have you know that most of my readers bathe regularly! (by regularly, I mean twice a month). :)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 05 Jan 2007 08:52:32 -0000

Yeah, the unmitigated gall of some people!

Re: Mendicant Beggary for the New Era

Ron — Fri, 05 Jan 2007 09:52:32 -0000

Yeah, the unmitigated gall of some people!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 05 Jan 2007 09:52:32 -0000

Yeah, the unmitigated gall of some people!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 19:11:32 -0000

Thanks Jane. Fair enough--I do need to balance out the masculinity of my links. I wonder if the lack of links to female bloggers is because I subconsciously connect more, somehow, with male bloggers or if it is because there aren't as many female emerging bloggers. I'll have to ponder that...

One thing that could remedy the situation a bit would be if you started a blog and sent me the link :)

Re: National Delurking Week

Ron — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:11:32 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:11:32 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:23:16 -0000

Great questions! I was afraid no one would engage me on this stuff.

Daniel: The word "anarchist" may not be the best word to use, but it works. Christian Anarchismhas a history and a development of thought. And while I don't buy into everything that major Christian Anarchist thinkers have put forth, I do find myself in roughly the same ballpark. Maybe I can find a viewpoint that gets to the same idea without the use of such inflammatory language. I'm more interested in stout Kingdom allegiance than I am in rejecting other governments. However, I believe it is impossible to ally one's self with the Kingdom of God without also having to resist--in one way or another the "empire." This is why I don't find the "two kingdom" approach convincing--at least as it is commonly articulated.

Christy: I pay taxes and follow laws in my obedience to Christ. I try to "live at peace with everyone." However, I have no problem disobeying laws that I think are unjust because I don't feel I owe allegiance to the U.S. Instead, I live here as a respectful sojourner.

I have opted out of voting...though I will vote at the local level. My biggest problem is that to vote nationally is to be an active part of the military machine.

Re: What if the Kingdom of God were REALLY a Kingdom?

Ron — Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:23:16 -0000

Great questions! I was afraid no one would engage me on this stuff.

Daniel: The word "anarchist" may not be the best word to use, but it works. Christian Anarchismhas a history and a development of thought. And while I don't buy into everything that major Christian Anarchist thinkers have put forth, I do find myself in roughly the same ballpark. Maybe I can find a viewpoint that gets to the same idea without the use of such inflammatory language. I'm more interested in stout Kingdom allegiance than I am in rejecting other governments. However, I believe it is impossible to ally one's self with the Kingdom of God without also having to resist--in one way or another the "empire." This is why I don't find the "two kingdom" approach convincing--at least as it is commonly articulated.

Christy: I pay taxes and follow laws in my obedience to Christ. I try to "live at peace with everyone." However, I have no problem disobeying laws that I think are unjust because I don't feel I owe allegiance to the U.S. Instead, I live here as a respectful sojourner.
I have opted out of voting...though I will vote at the local level. My biggest problem is that to vote nationally is to be an active part of the military machine.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:23:16 -0000

Great questions! I was afraid no one would engage me on this stuff.

Daniel: The word "anarchist" may not be the best word to use, but it works. Christian Anarchismhas a history and a development of thought. And while I don't buy into everything that major Christian Anarchist thinkers have put forth, I do find myself in roughly the same ballpark. Maybe I can find a viewpoint that gets to the same idea without the use of such inflammatory language. I'm more interested in stout Kingdom allegiance than I am in rejecting other governments. However, I believe it is impossible to ally one's self with the Kingdom of God without also having to resist--in one way or another the "empire." This is why I don't find the "two kingdom" approach convincing--at least as it is commonly articulated.

Christy: I pay taxes and follow laws in my obedience to Christ. I try to "live at peace with everyone." However, I have no problem disobeying laws that I think are unjust because I don't feel I owe allegiance to the U.S. Instead, I live here as a respectful sojourner.
I have opted out of voting...though I will vote at the local level. My biggest problem is that to vote nationally is to be an active part of the military machine.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:08:39 -0000

Sure. Or you can just send it to me:

Mark Van Steenwyk

3312 31st Ave S

Minneapolis, MN 55406

If you send a check, write it out to "Missio Dei" and write "laptop fund" in the memo line.

Re: links worthy of your perusal

Ron — Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:08:39 -0000

Sure. Or you can just send it to me:

Mark Van Steenwyk
3312 31st Ave S
Minneapolis, MN 55406

If you send a check, write it out to "Missio Dei" and write "laptop fund" in the memo line.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:08:39 -0000

Sure. Or you can just send it to me:

Mark Van Steenwyk
3312 31st Ave S
Minneapolis, MN 55406

If you send a check, write it out to "Missio Dei" and write "laptop fund" in the memo line.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 09 Jan 2007 16:03:51 -0000

Hello "Amelythia"--if that is your REAL name. Maybe you are ready for the next step--a blog of your own! I don't think you'd have any problem finding things to blog about (your work is unique, your church experience is unique, and the stuff you have to put up with from your husband is unique). I'll even help you set it up.

your mark

Re: National Delurking Week

Ron — Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:03:51 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:03:51 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:38:59 -0000

By "thick and fast" do you mean that I sometimes cram too much into one post? So your suggestion is that I tackle a single idea or two per post instead of doing too much in a single post?

Re: Quick Poll (please weigh in with full honesty)

Ron — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:38:59 -0000

By "thick and fast" do you mean that I sometimes cram too much into one post? So your suggestion is that I tackle a single idea or two per post instead of doing too much in a single post?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:38:59 -0000

By "thick and fast" do you mean that I sometimes cram too much into one post? So your suggestion is that I tackle a single idea or two per post instead of doing too much in a single post?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:42:17 -0000

A friend of mine (who will go unnamed) wrote me the following email in response to this post:

Prayers for you. Maybe ease up on your prayers, loosen the reigns, and instead of seeing what the possibilities aren't, see what they are? I know you know this, but God is bigger than any pocketbook, don't write off the possibilities lurking behind the closing doors.

To which I replied:

I agree. I actually regretted writing that post, because I wrote it in a moment of pessimism. I'm feeling more optimistic now. I haven't decided whether I should keep it online in an effort to be authentic, or take it down so that folks don't think I'm a whiney baby. :)

I'm going to keep the post up. In retrospect, I feel silly for writing it. It sounds like a pity-party on my part...and it makes it sound like I'm not excited about what God is doing. I know God will provide. And in a way, it would make more sense for us to find a way to be neomonastic in apartments, since most of the residents of the West Bank are renters.

Re: Be Forewarned: Ministry Rant Ahead

Ron — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:42:17 -0000

A friend of mine (who will go unnamed) wrote me the following email in response to this post:

Prayers for you. Maybe ease up on your prayers, loosen the reigns, and instead of seeing what the possibilities aren't, see what they are? I know you know this, but God is bigger than any pocketbook, don't write off the possibilities lurking behind the closing doors.

To which I replied:

I agree. I actually regretted writing that post, because I wrote it in a moment of pessimism. I'm feeling more optimistic now. I haven't decided whether I should keep it online in an effort to be authentic, or take it down so that folks don't think I'm a whiney baby. :)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:42:17 -0000

A friend of mine (who will go unnamed) wrote me the following email in response to this post:

Prayers for you. Maybe ease up on your prayers, loosen the reigns, and instead of seeing what the possibilities aren't, see what they are? I know you know this, but God is bigger than any pocketbook, don't write off the possibilities lurking behind the closing doors.

To which I replied:

I agree. I actually regretted writing that post, because I wrote it in a moment of pessimism. I'm feeling more optimistic now. I haven't decided whether I should keep it online in an effort to be authentic, or take it down so that folks don't think I'm a whiney baby. :)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 20:52:52 -0000

dlw,

I seriously believe that we must assume that Christ's rulership is political in a full sense and be convinced otherwise (instead of vice versa). In other words, the burden of proof is in showing that we ought to be functioning citizens of a nation, since Christ's rulership seems total.

The idea of figuring out for ourselves what we ought to render to Caesar and what to God seems like a reading that is perhaps steeped in personal spirituality.

I looked at your motif and left a question for you there.

Re: Church and State pt 1: Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s (but to God what is God’s)

Ron — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 21:52:52 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 21:52:52 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 17 Jan 2007 09:22:09 -0000

dlw,

I get what you're saying about Yoder. Makes perfect sense, and I agree. In regards to rulership, of course I mean his rulership is complete (including political) in regards to those who are in Christ. I agree that we need to develop habits of discipleship that advance the Kingdom. But, in my mind, since our full political allegiance is to Christ, it severely limits how those disciplines are enacted within the American political sphere. My fundamental belief is that the American political system competes with the Kingdom of God and one must only engage in the American political system (and in American society as a whole for that matter) "as Christians"--as Hauerwas (and Yoder) would point out. I think what that looks like is indeed contextual. Obviously, one can not successfully opt COMPLETELY out of the political realm, since it cannot be divorced from American public space. But we must always struggle to do so in full political fidelity to Christ. It is my belief that the Kingdom is much more "already" than most content (I have a mostly-realized escatology). Therefore, we must always struggle to be faithful to our King in the land of our sojourn. The way this looks to me seems to fall under the broader category of "Christian Anarchy."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 17 Jan 2007 09:30:05 -0000

Thank you all for your prayers!

Re: Church and State pt 1: Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s (but to God what is God’s)

Ron — Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:22:09 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:22:09 -0000

Re: Be Forewarned: Ministry Rant Ahead

Ron — Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:30:05 -0000

Thank you all for your prayers!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:30:05 -0000

Thank you all for your prayers!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 20:10:38 -0000

Well, not technically...there is a check someone is sending me that would cover the last of it.

Re: Mendicant Beggary for the New Era

Ron — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:10:38 -0000

Well, not technically...there is a check someone is sending me that would cover the last of it.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:10:38 -0000

Well, not technically...there is a check someone is sending me that would cover the last of it.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sat, 20 Jan 2007 16:57:04 -0000

My point about the modern state being a false copy of the Body of Christ isn't my own point. William Cavanaugh gets into this (quite well). The way in which it is a false copy is that it emerged out of an ecclesial environment in which their was no church/state distinction. It attempted to marginalize (in a sense) the church by rendering religion as part of the "interior" life while the state dealt more with the "exterior." Instead of Christ being seen as a political head with each person in covenant with one another and that head, the modern state re-definied the social contract in a way that undermined church authority, lifted the individual, and empowered the state in ways distinct from the faith. This isn't to say that things were necessarily BETTER before the rise of the Modern state. However, it can be said that the Modern state's emergence (as well as other social developments linked to its emergence) changed the way in which European Christians understood their allegiance to Christ, the State, and to one another. No longer was this understood ecclesially.

Just to change directions a bit...often it is said that my position (which is really just the position of political theologians like Cavanaugh and Hauerwas and others like them) is too divisive and polemic. I think this is a bit unfair. The anabaptist spirit that they are catching a "whiff" of has often thought of the church/state relationship in these ways with an irenic spirit. Often, "mediative" views or other views that try to take the role of faith seriously within one's understanding of the political process cause much more acrimony and discord. :)

Re: What if the Kingdom of God were REALLY a Kingdom?

Ron — Sat, 20 Jan 2007 17:57:04 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sat, 20 Jan 2007 17:57:04 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:11:07 -0000

dlw,

I gather from your response that you would think of yourself as a "liberal?" If that is the case, you are hearing me use the word in a way different than I am using it. I am talking about theological liberals (folks like Marcus Borg or John Shelby Spong etc.)

Re: Tolerance versus Hospitality

Ron — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:11:07 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:11:07 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:32:14 -0000

Thanks for sharing that, Matt.

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Ron — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:50:01 -0000

Ahh, I get your point now. And I agree.

I'm not sure in what ways I've ignored your background. I try not to put folks in boxes. If I've done that--even unintentionally--I apologize. Sometimes I don't have the time I want to blog or respond to things, and as a result I can write hurriedly or sloppy. That may be a contributing factor.

Re: From an old faith to atheism to a new faith

Ron — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:32:14 -0000

Thanks for sharing that, Matt.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:32:14 -0000

Thanks for sharing that, Matt.

Re: Tolerance versus Hospitality

Ron — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:50:01 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:50:01 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:25:25 -0000

Yeah, I wondered about that. I'm hoping that the statement is merely the victim of bad wording. It is like saying: "Yes, we're sorry about racism today, but at the time slavery was good idea."

Re: Better Late than Never, I guess

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:25:25 -0000

Yeah, I wondered about that. I'm hoping that the statement is merely the victim of bad wording. It is like saying: "Yes, we're sorry about racism today, but at the time slavery was good idea."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:25:25 -0000

Yeah, I wondered about that. I'm hoping that the statement is merely the victim of bad wording. It is like saying: "Yes, we're sorry about racism today, but at the time slavery was good idea."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:45:12 -0000

In a way, I'm becoming less of one...because my first Christian experiences were steeped in pietism and/or charismatic Christianity.

Re: A Public Apology

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:45:12 -0000

In a way, I'm becoming less of one...because my first Christian experiences were steeped in pietism and/or charismatic Christianity.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:45:12 -0000

In a way, I'm becoming less of one...because my first Christian experiences were steeped in pietism and/or charismatic Christianity.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:04:22 -0000

I did! (sorta...at least I read THROUGH it)

In what way would you say that I'm becoming more pietistic?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:47:16 -0000

Thanks! I've added my "friend of people" image.

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Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:50:03 -0000

I can see that...however, one could argue that being "careful to match words of criticism with words of praise and a sense of faith-connection that goes beyond our specific hills" is also a part of the anabaptist tradition. A good example of this particular tradition at work is the Bridgefolk. I'm hoping to do some light correspondence work for Bridgefolk in the future.

Re: A Public Apology

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:04:22 -0000

I did! (sorta...at least I read THROUGH it)

In what way would you say that I'm becoming more pietistic?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:04:22 -0000

I did! (sorta...at least I read THROUGH it)

In what way would you say that I'm becoming more pietistic?

Re: Friend of…

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:47:16 -0000

Thanks! I've added my "friend of people" image.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:47:16 -0000

Thanks! I've added my "friend of people" image.

Re: A Public Apology

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:50:03 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:50:03 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:57:01 -0000

Makes sense. Pietism was certainly, as I understand it, more ecumenical in spirit than Anabaptism (though not always by the choosing of the Anabaptists).

Re: A Public Apology

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:57:01 -0000

Makes sense. Pietism was certainly, as I understand it, more ecumenical in spirit than Anabaptism (though not always by the choosing of the Anabaptists).

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:57:01 -0000

Makes sense. Pietism was certainly, as I understand it, more ecumenical in spirit than Anabaptism (though not always by the choosing of the Anabaptists).

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Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:21:41 -0000

They didn't. They were basically kept from the table...and often still are in some ways.

I can't help but feel that most reconciliation work between Anabaptists and other Christians has been along the lines of: we're sorry we killed you all, but if you hadn't been so stubborn, we would have left you alone.

Anabaptists are certainly resistant to "compromise", but at the same time we are non-coercive with our ideals. Nevertheless, that unwillingness to compromise on certain beliefs threatens folks.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:27:15 -0000

That all depends upon how one defines "kingship of God."

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Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:38:12 -0000

dlw says:

I believe the issue here is that the mandate of the church and the state differ from each other and that we are to reject the use of rebellion to capture the state as incompatible with following Christ and overcoming evil with good.

This dual mandate view seems anachronistic to me. I believe you've pointed to exilic Israel as an Old Testament precedent for this, but I'm unconvinced.

I agree that rebellion is out of the question. The fact that Paul is making sure that such an option is taken off the table at least shows that any sort of involvement within the State is an uneasy one at best.

When one obeys those in authority, one does participate in changing the manner in which the sword of the state is wielded.

Yes, technically. But I don't want to take that very far. Jesus, after all, participated in both the Jewish and Roman legal systems when he was crucified...and I think that is an example for how we, the church, ought to participate in the political realm as well.

If it’s instituted by God, it cannot be against God ultimately.

That is a big statement that is too huge to grapple with here. That gets into theodicy. God did use nations to judge Israel and then judge those nations for it later. I'm not going to tip my hand too much now...but the manner in which the state is instituted by God and towards what end makes all the difference.

Re: A Public Apology

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:21:41 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:21:41 -0000

Re: A Public Apology

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:27:15 -0000

That all depends upon how one defines "kingship of God."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:27:15 -0000

That all depends upon how one defines "kingship of God."

Re: Church and State pt 2: Subject to the Governing Authorities (a Christian Anarchist’s look at Romans 13)

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:38:12 -0000

dlw says:

I believe the issue here is that the mandate of the church and the state differ from each other and that we are to reject the use of rebellion to capture the state as incompatible with following Christ and overcoming evil with good.

When one obeys those in authority, one does participate in changing the manner in which the sword of the state is wielded.

If it’s instituted by God, it cannot be against God ultimately.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:38:12 -0000

dlw says:

I believe the issue here is that the mandate of the church and the state differ from each other and that we are to reject the use of rebellion to capture the state as incompatible with following Christ and overcoming evil with good.

When one obeys those in authority, one does participate in changing the manner in which the sword of the state is wielded.

If it’s instituted by God, it cannot be against God ultimately.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sat, 27 Jan 2007 12:12:45 -0000

Probably not. :(

I wish I had an easy handy-dandy recording device.

Re: A Talk at Bethel Seminary’s Community Life Gathering: Embodying the Gospel in a Post_____ Era

Ron — Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:12:45 -0000

Probably not. :(

I wish I had an easy handy-dandy recording device.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:12:45 -0000

Probably not. :(

I wish I had an easy handy-dandy recording device.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 28 Jan 2007 14:59:09 -0000

Hmmm...sometimes when we vote, perhaps, kittens just suffer. It depends upon the candidate, I think. ;)

Re: Voting=Death to Kittens

Ron — Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:59:09 -0000

Hmmm...sometimes when we vote, perhaps, kittens just suffer. It depends upon the candidate, I think. ;)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:59:09 -0000

Hmmm...sometimes when we vote, perhaps, kittens just suffer. It depends upon the candidate, I think. ;)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:10:48 -0000

Nate,

I added a link to the file in the post. Just right click and "save link as..."

Re: Audio from Bethel Seminary Talk on “Embodying the Gospel in Post____ America”

Ron — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:10:48 -0000

Nate,

I added a link to the file in the post. Just right click and "save link as..."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:10:48 -0000

Nate,

I added a link to the file in the post. Just right click and "save link as..."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:26:39 -0000

Sorry to disappoint you, Anna. My neighborhood is nice in many ways. Though that can be deceptive. Many of the buildings shown in the pictures are campus buildings. Half of the neighborhood looks really nice because of these buildings. But there are some run-down pats, mostly by Riverside Plaza (the big high-rise buildings in the pictures). Riverside Plaza is the largest subsidized housing apartments in the Twin Cities. 70% of the neighborhood is low income.

The neighborhood has its ugliness, but I don't like showcasing that ugliness by showing pictures of how horrible the neighborhood is. I'd rather celebrate its beauty. I'm sure I'd find fundraising easier if I showed more pictures of homeless people, of trashy sidewalks, and of passed out east African youth on lawns, but I don't have it in me to present that image to the world.

Re: Links for Your Perusal

Ron — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:26:39 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:26:39 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:00:45 -0000

I don't know how to respond to that.

Re: Church and State pt 3: Subject to the Governing Authorities (a Christian Anarchist’s second look at Romans 13)

Ron — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:00:45 -0000

I don't know how to respond to that.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:00:45 -0000

I don't know how to respond to that.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:43:52 -0000

I was very surprised when I stumbled upon that quote. It isn't the sort of thing I'd ever expect to hear from Mike Tyson. Perhaps the website I found it on is in error? At any rate, the notion that Tyson said those words makes them all the more interesting.

Re: Jesus, Money, and Mike Tyson

Ron — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:43:52 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:43:52 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:04:49 -0000

Anna,

I don't think they'd be SUPER easy to memorize. Partly because there is more Scripture readings than just the Psalm reading. The morning prayers would be easier to memorize, since the opening prayer and the Lord's prayer are standard to the morning prayers. In the evening prayers, however, there is a rotation of seven different Scriptural "songs"--the Magnificat, Simeon's Song, etc.

Re: Missio Dei Book of Prayer

Ron — Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:04:49 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:04:49 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:37:40 -0000

Just a couple of clarifying statements:

1) I'm not interested in Christianizing anarchism. Instead, I am interested in being authentic to my read of Scripture in my particular context. This has led me in a strongly Anabaptist direction. I find "Christian Anarchism," as it is currently articulated by folks who think of themselves as "Christian Anarchists" (who are usually working from within the Anabaptist or Catholic traditions), to be a very useful term. Most of these folks aren't starting with Anarchism and trying to "Christianize" it. Instead, they are folks who resonate with a long strand of their tradition and are looking for ways of articulating their position. I'm not a Christian Anarchist because I like Anarchism any more than I'm a Christian Pacifist because I like pacifism. If I weren't a follower of Jesus Christ, I wouldn't have any leanings in those directions at all. I come to the Christian Anarchist view because I don't believe a "Two Kingdoms" approach is remotely scriptural, I believe that Jesus is a pacifist who communicated a Gospel of peace (peace in a very holistic and far-reaching sense), and I have a largely realized eschatology.

2) It is really these three doctrinal positions that I just mentioned that create all the differences in our approaches to this. Do you agree? I'm more interested, at this point, at understanding the fundamental disagreements we have and why we have them than I am interested in convincing you (or anyone else) of anything. For example, if one comes to the conclusion that pacifism is central to the Gospel, it is hard to say that there is any legitimate use of violence. Since that is largely the rationale for the State's very existence, it is easy to see how one would move towards "Christian Anarchism."

3) I think your comments raise an important question--and one that I'm not really prepared to address now (though I'd love for others to tackle it): What are some ways we can understand God's "use" of governments and "powers" that moves beyond simply he-uses-them-therefore-they're-sanctioned or he-simply-allows-them-to-do-what-they-do-yet-keeps-his-hands-clean.

Basically, I see the "governing authorities" being used by God in the same way that the "principalities and powers" (and even Satan) are used by God. Is Satan "sanctioned" by God? No. Does God "order" Satan for God's own purposes? Yes. I believe we are called to overcome evil with good instead of through violence or rebellion or "resistance" in the conventional sense of the word. We are, however, supposed to "resist" the powers in a very different way--through the "weapons" of the Spirit--peace, love, nonviolence, goodness, etc.

Re: Church and State pt 3: Subject to the Governing Authorities (a Christian Anarchist’s second look at Romans 13)

Ron — Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:37:40 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:37:40 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:47:07 -0000

I agree with what you are saying, Graham. Maybe you can point out where my paraphrase is allowing too close of a co-operation between the State and God. I think the passage does support (or at least doesn't take away from) a Christian Anarchist perspective...though it does seem to say that Rome (I don't want to universalize this too much) can "do God's bidding" in its functions, even if they aren't legitimized and sanctioned by God.

Re: Church and State pt 4: What Paul is Saying in Romans 13

Ron — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 08:47:07 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 08:47:07 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 14:17:16 -0000

Rachel,

Thanks for the comment. It is hard for me to find a good balance. I struggle to write in an accessible way and "do" theology at the same time.

I live between two worlds (the world of the "practitioner" and the world of the "academic"). The gap is wide and it is difficult to speak to both church folks and academics at the same time. My motivation (and the reason I decided not to pursue an academic career) is to bring some deep theological thinking to life within the practices of the church. Often, theologians just write back and forth to one another with their secret language and hope that folks will pick up their ideas when they are at seminary...thus causing the theological equivalent to Reagan's "trickle-down." But that doesn't really work. Instead, we need to make theology an in-house enterprise.

Re: To End All Wars…a quick thought about Church and State

Ron — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:17:16 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:17:16 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:43:44 -0000

dlw...

I feel like we'll keep butting heads on this stuff forever. We have different starting points and I'm not sure we can see eye to eye on this stuff. You think my position is extreme and unhelpful, but it is my position nonetheless. I'm not following it naively or out of frustration with the system. It is based upon my theological convictions.

To which promise are you referring in your third paragraph? About encouraging my politically minded friends to consider your proposal?

Re: To End All Wars…a quick thought about Church and State

Ron — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:43:44 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:43:44 -0000

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Ron — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:13:23 -0000

Great point Graham...I agree. I'm open to suggestions for better wording...

Re: Church and State pt 4: What Paul is Saying in Romans 13

Ron — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 18:13:23 -0000

Great point Graham...I agree. I'm open to suggestions for better wording...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 18:13:23 -0000

Great point Graham...I agree. I'm open to suggestions for better wording...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:25:08 -0000

I'm blushing. :)

Re: Resisting Abstraction

Ron — Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:25:08 -0000

I'm blushing. :)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:25:08 -0000

I'm blushing. :)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:32:55 -0000

Cullen,

I don't think I said that these fluctuations are solely a result of consumerism. However, I think you underestimate the scope and effect of consumerism on our lives. Sure, there isn't a 1:1 correspondence here, but so many of the cogs in the machine of consumer capitalism are also driving the machine of consumer religion. One could say that consumerism and the rise of religious choice are separate phenomenon. But so many of the same things are driving them that it makes one wonder if they aren't a part of the same phenomenon.

What I think is happening is that we in the West have been socialized by our consumer culture into certain ways of seeing the world and have adopted certain habits. We can't help but see religion as fundamentally an issue of personal choice that one acquires or discards based upon their own choice. Religion isn't therefore something to submit to, but something to be evaluated by the experience one has of it...in other words, if it doesn't taste good, we discard it and look for another one.

For further reading, I direct you to Vincent Miller's Consuming Religion, Tom Beaudoin's Consuming Faith, and J. Carrette's Selling Religion.

Re: Classic JM: Christian Identity and Consumer Choice

Ron — Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:32:55 -0000

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Ron — Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:32:55 -0000

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Ron — Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:48:24 -0000

Hmmm...perhaps I'm missing something, but this pope has been a consistent advocate of peace. Perhaps you could articulate the ways in which he has undermined the strides John Paul II has made for peace and human rights?

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Ron — Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:51:16 -0000

Wilberforce is over-hyped...but I don't disrespect what he has done. Any time someone within the Christendom system has used that system to achieve rights for the marginalized, I see it as generally positive. But it reinforces the impotence of the church and the over-reliance on the State...and does all other sorts of damage. I think the exemplar for Christian social action is someone like Martin Luther King Jr, rather than Wilberforce.

Re: Papal Wisdom on Nonviolence

Ron — Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:48:24 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:48:24 -0000

Re: links worthy of your perusal

Ron — Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:51:16 -0000

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Ron — Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:51:16 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:44:53 -0000

You're probably right about Willberforce helping pave the way for MLK. I don't see Wilberforce's actions as entirely misguided or bad or futile at all. I'm simply saying that there is a better way...not that his way was entirely a waste.

I have to admit; I like the term "Generous Orthopraxy"...that'd be an interesting title for an article or book. :)

Re: links worthy of your perusal

Ron — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:44:53 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:44:53 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:08:29 -0000

dlw...how would a book like that work when I am not very generous in my orthopraxy (from your vantage point)? What would be the unifying theme/focus?

Re: links worthy of your perusal

Ron — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:08:29 -0000

dlw...how would a book like that work when I am not very generous in my orthopraxy (from your vantage point)? What would be the unifying theme/focus?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:08:29 -0000

dlw...how would a book like that work when I am not very generous in my orthopraxy (from your vantage point)? What would be the unifying theme/focus?

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Ron — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 18:58:33 -0000

Thanks for the apology...but I still need to challenge your tone. I mean this lovingly, but you write more on my blog than I do. And often your tone is a bit condescending. In the last post it was down right rude. I'm not keeping you from specializing...by all means, engage the system from within. I don't think it is bad to do so...in fact, as I hope to post later, there are some ways to carefully engage the system from within. However, I would posit, one never does so out of submission to the authority of the State. I think you'll find that the way it looks (as I'll get to later) is more nuanced than you'd expect.

Dlw...please stop trying to woo me to your pov with long posts on my blog. I feel like every time you comment it is rehashing what you've already made clear. Please let me move on to the applications of my ideas. I read your blog--that is where you get to write long challenging posts. I'll try to keep an open mind, and I want to still push back and forth about this stuff...but I think your responses on my blog are often overkill.

Re: Church and State pt 5: Transitioning to Practical Implications

Ron — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:58:33 -0000

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Ron — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:58:33 -0000

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Ron — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 13:50:19 -0000

dlw,

I appreciate your background as a social scientist...but to me that means you have a vested interested in participating within existing socio-politics. I'm willing to dialog further, but it is hard to go along with you when you assume a privileged role in the conversation.

From my vantage point, there isn't a huge disconnect between exegesis and my advocacy of Christian Anarchism. I'm not certain that their is a disconnect between my exegesis and your subsidiarian view of the role of the State. I simply think we bring different assumptions and theological grids into the spaces of the text. Sure, I think my assumptions fit the vibe and flavors of the NT better, but that's why they're my assumptions.

That isn't to say that I'm non chalant about my assumptions--or yours--I'm very serious about my convictions, but I reject the notion of certainty.

In the end, it is more important that Christians as a whole embrace more direct forms of action in society. I'm not particularly interested in getting folks to reject voting and whatnot. Personally, I reject such things in my attempt to live as consistently as possible as well as my attempt to explore the ideas I find in Scripture to the full. I am open to change, however. So, for me, orthopraxy in this stuff is more important than orthodoxy. That is to say, if folks embrace the direct forms of action within the Church, I'm not really that upset if they engage in the sorts of American political action that others find appropriate.

I'm wondering if we can begin to find some areas of agreement. And find which precise issues we disagree over.

Would you agree with the following emphases:

1) We recognize our allegiance to Jesus first and foremost.

2) We value kinship in Christ over national allegiances.

3) As a whole, the church is the church, and doesn't outsource its function to the State.

Am I correct in assuming that we disagree over the following:

4) The call to follow Christ is a call to put aside violence.

5) Allegiance to Christ is such that there isn't room for other political allegiances.

This is an area over which there may be some agreement or disagreement:

6) We must engage in public discourse in the social sphere in a very Christocentric way. In other words, we mustn't pursue "common good" in a way that isn't centered on Jesus Christ.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 13:53:08 -0000

Nope...that's it. Is this something you'd like me to delve into further?

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Ron — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 13:55:58 -0000

Clint: Jason Russell is definitely worth considering. Your name for the conference, is indeed too long. The web domain that we get for it would cause finger spasms. ;)

Michael: As much as I'd love to hear Ched Myers, I think he may be a bit more than most folks at the conference could take. I'm thinking that this conference would be more of an onramp into a deeper exploration of Jesus' way of justice.

Re: Church and State pt 5: Transitioning to Practical Implications

Ron — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 14:50:19 -0000

dlw,

I appreciate your background as a social scientist...but to me that means you have a vested interested in participating within existing socio-politics. I'm willing to dialog further, but it is hard to go along with you when you assume a privileged role in the conversation.

From my vantage point, there isn't a huge disconnect between exegesis and my advocacy of Christian Anarchism. I'm not certain that their is a disconnect between my exegesis and your subsidiarian view of the role of the State. I simply think we bring different assumptions and theological grids into the spaces of the text. Sure, I think my assumptions fit the vibe and flavors of the NT better, but that's why they're my assumptions.

That isn't to say that I'm non chalant about my assumptions--or yours--I'm very serious about my convictions, but I reject the notion of certainty.

In the end, it is more important that Christians as a whole embrace more direct forms of action in society. I'm not particularly interested in getting folks to reject voting and whatnot. Personally, I reject such things in my attempt to live as consistently as possible as well as my attempt to explore the ideas I find in Scripture to the full. I am open to change, however. So, for me, orthopraxy in this stuff is more important than orthodoxy. That is to say, if folks embrace the direct forms of action within the Church, I'm not really that upset if they engage in the sorts of American political action that others find appropriate.

I'm wondering if we can begin to find some areas of agreement. And find which precise issues we disagree over.

Would you agree with the following emphases:

1) We recognize our allegiance to Jesus first and foremost.
2) We value kinship in Christ over national allegiances.
3) As a whole, the church is the church, and doesn't outsource its function to the State.

Am I correct in assuming that we disagree over the following:

4) The call to follow Christ is a call to put aside violence.
5) Allegiance to Christ is such that there isn't room for other political allegiances.

This is an area over which there may be some agreement or disagreement:

6) We must engage in public discourse in the social sphere in a very Christocentric way. In other words, we mustn't pursue "common good" in a way that isn't centered on Jesus Christ.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 14:50:19 -0000

dlw,

I appreciate your background as a social scientist...but to me that means you have a vested interested in participating within existing socio-politics. I'm willing to dialog further, but it is hard to go along with you when you assume a privileged role in the conversation.

From my vantage point, there isn't a huge disconnect between exegesis and my advocacy of Christian Anarchism. I'm not certain that their is a disconnect between my exegesis and your subsidiarian view of the role of the State. I simply think we bring different assumptions and theological grids into the spaces of the text. Sure, I think my assumptions fit the vibe and flavors of the NT better, but that's why they're my assumptions.

That isn't to say that I'm non chalant about my assumptions--or yours--I'm very serious about my convictions, but I reject the notion of certainty.

In the end, it is more important that Christians as a whole embrace more direct forms of action in society. I'm not particularly interested in getting folks to reject voting and whatnot. Personally, I reject such things in my attempt to live as consistently as possible as well as my attempt to explore the ideas I find in Scripture to the full. I am open to change, however. So, for me, orthopraxy in this stuff is more important than orthodoxy. That is to say, if folks embrace the direct forms of action within the Church, I'm not really that upset if they engage in the sorts of American political action that others find appropriate.

I'm wondering if we can begin to find some areas of agreement. And find which precise issues we disagree over.

Would you agree with the following emphases:

1) We recognize our allegiance to Jesus first and foremost.
2) We value kinship in Christ over national allegiances.
3) As a whole, the church is the church, and doesn't outsource its function to the State.

Am I correct in assuming that we disagree over the following:

4) The call to follow Christ is a call to put aside violence.
5) Allegiance to Christ is such that there isn't room for other political allegiances.

This is an area over which there may be some agreement or disagreement:

6) We must engage in public discourse in the social sphere in a very Christocentric way. In other words, we mustn't pursue "common good" in a way that isn't centered on Jesus Christ.

Re: Rethinking the Atonement

Ron — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 14:53:08 -0000

Nope...that's it. Is this something you'd like me to delve into further?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 14:53:08 -0000

Nope...that's it. Is this something you'd like me to delve into further?

Re: gearing up for another conference…

Ron — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 14:55:58 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 14:55:58 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:10:22 -0000

Worship gatherings aren't central to Missio Dei, though we do meet weekly. We don't mention "when" and "where" because those things are still relatively formative and fluid--we don't want to get prescriptive with such things since we want to have the freedom to change and adapt how we worship together. We do, however, reserve the right to add such information.

Re: The Missio Dei Rule of Faith

Ron — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:10:22 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:10:22 -0000

Re: The Gospel According to Oprah

Ron — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:16:20 -0000

Sure, wealth isn't the problem per se. Wealth is merely the abundance of material assets...and those assets can be used as a blessing or be used selfishly (and as such become a curse). Wealth is dangerous for us, given our self-centered predisposition. Often, wealth enhances our ability to live into the seven deadly sins. In our modern era of hyper-individualistic consumption, it makes sense that we'd find a way to re-orient Christian spirituality around individualism, greed, and the "American Dream."

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:16:20 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:16:20 -0000

Re: The Missio Dei Rule of Faith

Ron — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:17:28 -0000

Thanks for all the kind words. Rachel, I'm going to address your question in its own post...please feel free to dialog with me there.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:17:28 -0000

Thanks for all the kind words. Rachel, I'm going to address your question in its own post...please feel free to dialog with me there.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:17:28 -0000

Thanks for all the kind words. Rachel, I'm going to address your question in its own post...please feel free to dialog with me there.

Re: Follow the Money: Building Church upon the Powers

Ron — Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:09:49 -0000

I took the picture...while I was coming back from the kitchen after getting some more caviar!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:09:49 -0000

I took the picture...while I was coming back from the kitchen after getting some more caviar!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:09:49 -0000

I took the picture...while I was coming back from the kitchen after getting some more caviar!

Re: you are invited to a free len sweet lecture

Ron — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:17:03 -0000

Just show up...come one, come all!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:17:03 -0000

Just show up...come one, come all!

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:17:03 -0000

Just show up...come one, come all!

Re: Urban Labyrinth

Ron — Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:22:57 -0000

Just to clarify some terms in the poem (in case you're a new reader):
West Bank=another name for the Cedar/Riverside Neighborhood of Minneapolis

Hard Times Cafe=a coffee shop on the West Bank that is the center of gravity for punks and other counter-cultural types in Minneapolis

Gutterpunks=(working class and/or inner-city street punks)

Kyrie=the biblical prayer of the repentant tax collector--it is basic building block for Eastern Orthodox prayers: Kyrie eleison (Lord have mercy).

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:22:57 -0000

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Ron — Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:22:57 -0000

Re: On Church Budgets

Ron — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:21:03 -0000

Ryan...you're probably right. I think that there are some definite uses of buildings that could have huge impact in our ministry (like housing). I think, for us, we're thinking of office space, class space, and meeting space as "facilities" space.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:21:03 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:21:03 -0000

Re: Book of Prayer Bummer

Ron — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:28:00 -0000

Wipf & Stock has some strong disadvantages:
1) They have the reputation of having low publishing standards.
2) They don't spend much on promotion of books.
3) They never give book advances.

What that means is that it is hard for books to make any money or for authors to make any money. Since book writing is a big way for me to bring funds into our ministry, I'd rather look at other publishers first.

Paraclete and Herald are definitely worth looking into, though they too have limits in how much promotion they'll do. Herald is pretty much in-house for Anabaptists and Paraclete is a niche publisher.

My plan is to approach Brazos first. Then Peraclete, then Herald. If none of those work, I'll talk to Wipf and Stock. I really like the idea of Wipf and Stock--and there are some great people working with them, but they are focused mostly on reprints and only rarely publish books that can reach a larger audience. 12 marks (which isn't a huge hit, but has had a surprising impact) did well because the new monastic movement was just breaking into the scene at the time and the book was a sort of banner.

Ron, I actually used Lulu to do a small run of the book of prayer for folks in Missio Dei. They don't seem to be a real option for getting the word out about the book, since they're basically a glorified Kinkos.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:28:00 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:28:00 -0000

Wipf & Stock has some strong disadvantages:
1) They have the reputation of having low publishing standards.

2) They don't spend much on promotion of books.

3) They never give book advances.

What that means is that it is hard for books to make any money or for authors to make any money. Since book writing is a big way for me to bring funds into our ministry, I'd rather look at other publishers first.

Paraclete and Herald are definitely worth looking into, though they too have limits in how much promotion they'll do. Herald is pretty much in-house for Anabaptists and Paraclete is a niche publisher.

My plan is to approach Brazos first. Then Peraclete, then Herald. If none of those work, I'll talk to Wipf and Stock. I really like the idea of Wipf and Stock--and there are some great people working with them, but they are focused mostly on reprints and only rarely publish books that can reach a larger audience. 12 marks (which isn't a huge hit, but has had a surprising impact) did well because the new monastic movement was just breaking into the scene at the time and the book was a sort of banner.

Ron, I actually used Lulu to do a small run of the book of prayer for folks in Missio Dei. They don't seem to be a real option for getting the word out about the book, since they're basically a glorified Kinkos.

Re: the Anarchist Love Train

Ron — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:50:30 -0000

Hey Jeshua! (you're the Jeshua I met in San Francisco, right?)

I think that may be a good way to go, though they tend to be a bit expensive. If I can get one for cheap (or donation) then I'd be ecstatic. However, a cheap alternative would be an inexpensive used van fitted with a bare minimum of equipment run on propane.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:50:30 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:50:30 -0000

Re: Church and State pt 6: initial explorations of practical implications

Ron — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:52:26 -0000

I'm not sure I understand where the arrogance is. Could you clarify? I don't see the distinction you're making. In my mind, it isn't a question of arrogance, but a matter of identity/affiliation/allegiance.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:52:26 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:52:26 -0000

Re: the Anarchist Love Train

Ron — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:42:32 -0000

Corey...I think we're looking for something with a larger interior than a conversion van (those are the sort of vans that families love for long trips, right). We're thinking more along the lines of a cargo van or the smaller sized sort of van/truck that uhaul rents out.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:42:32 -0000

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Ron — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:42:32 -0000

Re: the Anarchist Love Train

Ron — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:43:02 -0000

Yeah John, it has been a while. I look forward to seeing you again.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:43:02 -0000

Yeah John, it has been a while. I look forward to seeing you again.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:43:02 -0000

Yeah John, it has been a while. I look forward to seeing you again.

Re: the Anarchist Love Train

Ron — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:05:51 -0000

Thanks! Dave--I don't know why I didn't think of you right away. I'd love to talk to you about ideas. This sort of thing could really do a lot of good, and be the sort of thing that gives Jesus a good name. I think it would also do Christians some good to be involved with teh Anarchist Love Train.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:05:51 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:05:51 -0000

Re: the Anarchist Love Train

Ron — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:08:52 -0000

Daniel,

You sound like someone who knows how to do such stuff. I have no idea what an inverter even is. Once we have a vehicle, would you be willing to help with electrical stuff?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:08:52 -0000

Daniel,

You sound like someone who knows how to do such stuff. I have no idea what an inverter even is. Once we have a vehicle, would you be willing to help with electrical stuff?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:08:52 -0000

Daniel,

You sound like someone who knows how to do such stuff. I have no idea what an inverter even is. Once we have a vehicle, would you be willing to help with electrical stuff?

Re: Palm Sunday

Ron — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:36:26 -0000

Luke...I mostly agree. The struggle isn't with how things have been done conventionally...more with the potential of a church calendar--if it really meant something. I'm tempted to develop our own (more subversive) approach to a lectionary, but I hate the old we-are-going-to-do-it-our-OWN-way impulse. Hence the conflict.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:36:26 -0000

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Ron — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:36:26 -0000

Re: Palm Sunday

Ron — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:41:10 -0000

Michael and Graham--excellent thoughts. Very eloquent. You seem to articulate the blessings (and curses) of the use of the lectionary and church calendar well.

And so friends (and here I include Luke and b-nut), do you think it is a legitimate exercise to develop a theologically thoughtful local (contextual) lectionary if one does so in a way that nods to the existing lectionaries (especially the Eastern ones) is conscious of hobby-horsing, yet tries to cover more than the existing lectionary?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:41:10 -0000

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Ron — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:41:10 -0000

Re: Church and State pt 6: initial explorations of practical implications

Ron — Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:11:37 -0000

Great thoughts and questions, Espiritu Paz (if that is your REAL name). I'm not uber confident in my response...most of my blog is me trying to think my way into things, rather the outcome of ponderous reflections. With that disclaimer established, let me just say that I think we need to perhaps move beyond a two kingdoms approach. It isn't that we the Church (as one group) needs to engage in American Culture (as another group) simply on our own terms--giving, yet never receiving.

In my thinking, I've shifted away from a two kingdoms approach into thinking of a one Kingdom approach--a Christarchy, if you will. In this way, Jesus is the Lord and all caesars are would-be usurpers. In my mind, then, I can give and take from folks...but never in a way that recognizing caesar's legitimacy. I realize that there are problems with this perspective. My largest concerns are that we:

1) recognize a very much this-world soveriegnty of Christ over (and even against) the Powers (including the State).

2) that we don't resist the Powers physically, but spiritually, and with loving, compassionate hospitality.

3) that we center ourselves with those who have been marginalized by the State.

4) that, since we are enmeshed within the System whether we like it or not, we live within the system as adamant Christ-followers (including in the aforementioned political sense).

The sticky-wicket, as it were, in all of this is that while we resist the State, I believe we are called, simultaneously, to turn the other cheek as we love them. This complicates things because then our goal isn't merely to subvert the Empire, but to love it. And this requires engagement. This requires a self-reflective, thoughtful, disciplined way of relating with the Empire (are you hearing this dlw...this is a big area of overlap that promises some room for dialogue). I'm not sure of how to go about doing that...holding the tension of subversion and embrace. Hospitality is a useful concept here...but I think you're right that it can be simply one-way. That would be a monologue, not a dialogue.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:11:37 -0000

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Ron — Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:11:37 -0000

Re: Political Salvation: Thoughts on Barack Obama, Political Hopes, and Christian Anarchism

Ron — Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:59:10 -0000

Fair enough. That is probably the best approach. I think there are times when using categories (not exactly the same things as labels) are good, but labels inherently mark something off and limit them.

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Ron — Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:59:10 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:59:10 -0000

Re: Palm Sunday

Ron — Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:05:14 -0000

If I were to utilize the current lectionary, I'd probably develop a supplement. The criticism of the Emerging church stems from its hyper-contextualism. In other words, just as it would (I think) be misguided to bring the Lectionary with you when doing missionary work in Papua New Guinea, it is likewise (though to a much lesser degree) to bring the Lectionary into Chicago. The comparison only goes so far, but you get the gist.

The problem is when the theology undergirding the Lectionary isn't savory. To be honest, if forced to choose between the Lectionary or to continue with the same old hunt-and-peck low church approach to approaching Scripture, I'm tempted to choose the latter. Given this, wouldn't it be better to develop a "system" that would keep our church from simply preaching its hobby-passages? And, wouldn't it be good to go a step further and try to make it thematically conversant with the Common Lectionary (or some other Lectionary) in order to recognize one's indebtedness to the Tradition?

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Ron — Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:05:14 -0000

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Ron — Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:05:14 -0000

Re: Christian Anarchism Conference: August 10-11

Ron — Wed, 04 Apr 2007 21:57:19 -0000

I've put it on my calendar, but it depends upon the expense of the trip. Unfortunately, my personal finances are in the "shitter" right now. It is profoundly frustrating, because I find myself with an ever-growing list of opportunity to do some really interesting ministry and speaking and whatnot, but it is mostly marginal stuff and therefore doesn't pay much.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 04 Apr 2007 21:57:19 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 04 Apr 2007 21:57:19 -0000

Re: Palm Sunday

Ron — Fri, 06 Apr 2007 00:12:01 -0000

Michael,

There are some built-in assumptions within the Lectionary that betray the Western theological tradition. That is why the Catholic and Protestant Lectionaries are different than the Orthodox Lectionaries. And even among Western lectionaries there are differences. These differences stem from differing theologies. That was what I meant about not wanting to bring the Lectionary to Papua New Guinea (and it has nothing to do with "effectiveness").

And I'm not really interested in starting from scratch. But I would at least like to develop an alternative lectionary, perhaps, that honors the good of the existing lectionary while addressing areas of inadequacy. What are those areas of inadequacy? Here are the ones that come to mind:

The lectionary doesn't do a good job representing the Old Testament. In fact, it really only includes the "Jesusy" passages...or those thought of as "Jesusy" by the folks that developed the Lectionary (Neo-Marcion?)

It not only leaves out most of the Old Testament, it leaves out a third of the New Testament.

It breaks the texts into chunks in a way that sometimes betrays the overall narratival quality of Scripture...or the flow of argument. The narrative is undercut by its failure to share enough of the Old Testament to give proper context. This actually makes it more likely that we'll end up with an improper understanding of the New Testament (since the Lectionary presents a very strong hermeneutical grid). The Lectionary reinforces a Neo-Marcion view of the Gospel (as I mentioned earlier) and can make Jesus more of a universal savior at the expense of understanding the profoundly and particularly Jewish nature of his Messiahship.

In its zeal to focus on the Gospels (which is in many ways a strength) it neglects other New Testament works. It also skips over parts of the Gospel that seem to "lead up" to other points. In other words, it tries to catch "the high points." This betrays a rather didactic or theological emphasis at the expense of narrative and aesthetics.

The Lectionary has a bad habit of omitting the most awkward or confusing or troublesome passages out. Sure this makes God look better, but still...

Half of the year is focused on Christmas and Easter...and the events leading up to Christmas and Easter. While these are no doubt very important events, it would be good if Pentecost were giving better billing. And if the Story of Israel was part of the narratival flow of the Liturgical Year.

All of this isn't to say that the Lectionary sucks. It is great. But it has limitations. And instead of being forced to choose between the Lectionary as-it-is or just picking-and-choosing, I'd rather develop ways of exploring the narrative of Scripture that get at things better. It may be that using the Lectionary as-is would be worthwhile. But I'm not interested in using it simply to show solidarity with the Church, though I'm not interested in a complete deviation either.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 06 Apr 2007 00:12:01 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 06 Apr 2007 00:12:01 -0000

Re: Palm Sunday

Ron — Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:06:01 -0000

I'm moving this conversation to a new post here.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:06:01 -0000

I'm moving this conversation to a new post here.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:06:01 -0000

I'm moving this conversation to a new post here.

Re: Hyper-Contextualizing the Lectionary? (part one)

Ron — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:43:49 -0000

Michael...I think I share your concerns. I guess I'm not sure that the use of the Lectionary is the best way of being ecumenical. Nevertheless, I'm nearly convinced that it is perhaps best to start with an existing lectionary with the freedom to supplement it or diverge from it.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:43:49 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:43:49 -0000

Re: Thoughts on Psychological Tests, Being Smug, and Failing to be a Writer

Ron — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:47:19 -0000

Anna: I'm more of an ENFP. What made you think that I was an INFJ...is that what you are?

Jesse: Thank you for bringing attention to my blog's damniversary!

dlw: Thank you for the encouragement. I need to attempt some sort of regular writing routine--I've been thinking about getting up a bit earlier and going somewhere from, say, 8 til 10 just for writing. But such a thing takes discipline. I wish I had a writing buddy.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ron — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:47:19 -0000

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Ron — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:47:19 -0000

Re: The "Influencers"

Ron — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:55:46 -0000

I agree, John. I'm hoping to post some concluding thoughts about this informal poll at a future day. My point in asking people to add to this list wasn't to prop up celebrity, but to subvert it. My suspicion was (and I think it has been somewhat confirmed) that we are often not influenced by the celebrities--but by other, lesser known, folks. We often get so caught up in talking about celebrity leaders that we don't stop and think about the people whose lives and stories have made the biggest impact in our lives.