Disqus - Latest Comments for peterson toscano

Re: How to be: EMO

peterson toscano — Sun, 10 Dec 2006 15:55:54 -0000

My 11 year old nephew sports the same shaggy hair, and his mother, my sister, protested continuously, that was until my nephew's teacher made stink about it. My sister, offended that the teacher would stick her nose into my nephew's hair (and question my sister's mothering skills), fought so intensely for her son's right to wear his hair long and unkempt that now he is forbidden to cut it for fear that the teacher might claim victory.

Re: How to be: EMO

peterson toscano — Tue, 12 Dec 2006 19:08:36 -0000

Peter, in fact, I am even in the UK. I swear I am not stalking you. Just in Scotland for the holidays. Glad I found your blog.

Re: Happy New Year!!!

peterson toscano — Tue, 02 Jan 2007 18:31:45 -0000

I ADORE YouTube! Both watching and posting. What a gift to the world!

Re: Adoption Discrimination IS fine - as long as it’s against Christians

peterson toscano — Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:17:47 -0000

Peter, we are hearing the account of one couple in their own words. There are plenty of Christian couples who feel it is completely correct for same-sex couples to adopt and they base that belief on their Christian faith as well. The question here is not someone's faith but heterosexism--that heterosexuallly oriented home is the ideal scenario for a child. No the best home is one with healhty and loving parents who are committed to each other and their child.

These parents come in all faiths and orientations. Not having been at the interview with these parents it is hard to know what they also left out and how their comments were said. It is one thing to share a belief, but it is quite another to harbor a prejudice. They come off very fair and balanced in their own reporting of the events, but as Solomon said, "Every man's way looks right in his own eyes."

A child who is queer and questioning raised in such a home could be harmed and are often harmed. No wonder the number one cause of death among queer and questioning youth in the US (and UK too perhaps) is suicide and that homelessness among queer youth is on a dramatic climb.

It is not always about an agenda being pushed. There is the welfare of children that needs to be considered in these matters. Are their social workers who are biased? Yes, there have always been, most often against queer parents and children. but also against Hindus, Muslims and Christians. But there are safety guards in place (at least in the States) where once a couple is denied the right to adopt, they can appeal (oh unless they are gay--at least in the majority of the US states).

Re: Yes, we have snow

peterson toscano — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:39:09 -0000

great snow, now get rid of it by May as I will be there then. Thanks.

Re: James Parker on BBC Today

peterson toscano — Mon, 26 Mar 2007 04:37:24 -0000

Parker stated, "We see that there are more serious health implications for people who live a gay lifestyle. Even the gay research shows that this is a more fragmented lifestyle and relationship choice. So actually we are trying to equate, I believe, something, um, that is less healthy for society with something that is in the best interest of society."

This raises more questions for me than answers anything. Yes, I realize he had only a few seconds to speak, that is the nature of these media appearances, but what research does he mean? What was the actual conclusion of the researches and not simply the inference made by Parker? Far too many Christian leaders, who claim that thou shall not lie, bend the research on LGBT people to suit their own purposes. I expect more from a Christian.

The broadcast mentioned the Journey into Manhood program. This to me reveals the real issue, sexism. Men are not men enough. The ex-gay movement is almost always about "saving" men. As if someone couldn't be a man, a healthy responsible male citizen and also have a partner who also happens to be a man. Heterosexuality and Manhood are not the same thing. Just like holiness is NOT the same as heterosexuality. There are plenty of holy homosexuals. I meet them all the time.

Yes, there are men with sexual addiction issues, men who look to meet their emotional and psychological needs in unhealthy and inappropriate ways, but that is true of men who have heterosexual as well as homosexual orientations. If the church wants to address promiscuity and sexual addiction, great. Go for it. You will find allies in this worthy work within the LGBT community.

But please, do not slander me and my "lifestyle". If the only people an ex-gay leader meets are the folks in his program, folks who elect to attend such a program, he is going to meet lots of hurting, dysfunction people. He never sees the healthy happy queer folks. We exist, we thrive, we are not a menance to be contained.

Now if Christians feel their voice is not being heard and they object to the process by which a law is passed, than their concerns need to be heard. But to propagate the lie that "change is possible" and that one can engage in the process without causing harm is irresponsible and dishonest. The vast majority of people cannot change sexual orientation and the vast majority of those who tried (at least of the hunddreds I have met) have said the process caused them more harm than good.

Re: Telling the Right Story

peterson toscano — Wed, 08 Aug 2007 09:32:08 -0000

Hi Peter, I will be in the UK again this August and still wish to have a proper face to face encounter with you. I find that a lot more ground gets covered more effectively that way.

I will not respond to each of your points and will let others do so if they wish.

A few things:
When I have traveled to the UK to do my shows and give my talks, British folks, gay, ex-gay and straight, have repeatedly warned me that Evangelicalism, and the ex-gay movement in particular, are VERY DIFFERENT there than they are in the US. Having been to the UK about 10 times in the past 5 years, I now know that to be true. Things are VERY DIFFERENT here in the US in many ways in regards to the church and the ex-gay movement.

Peter, here in the US there has been a long history of people promising “Freedom from Homosexuality” with slogans like “I Questioned Homosexuality–Change is Possible.” Although the internal messages are more complex, many of the ex-gay consumers I have met, weighed down with the heterosexism and very clear anti-gay sentiment from the Church, friends and families, hear that message and assume it means what it says, Change is Possible–change in orientation.

It is only very recently that ex-gay groups have been straight forward about their message (although their ads have not changed that much). And although Exodus is the largest ex-gay organization in the USA, it has no real oversight to the teachings and practices of its member ministries. Also, lots of ex-gay work happens outside of Exodus under the radar through other ministries, Christian counselors and by pastors who may have attended an ex-gay conference or read a book. So lots ex-gay ministers still teach about healing and change.

The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant Christian sect in the US, is VERY DIFFERENT from any Baptist Church I ever attended in the UK (I went to a few there back in the 90’s). The message that Darlene Bogle shared in front of Southern Baptist headquarters is completely appropriate considering the Southern Baptist teachings and world view. Does every Southern Baptist believe that way? No, but many do, perhaps most.

The strident messages about salvation and change for people with same-sex attractions that the conservative churches in the US teach are not subtle at all. These are not a few fringe whack teachers out there but thousands of local and national figures who speak to millions daily through radio and TV broadcasts as well as from the pulpit on Sunday mornings and in books, magazine articles, newspaper columns and recordings.

Many ex-gay consumers have been sitting under these teachings for years. The weight of these teachings work in tandem with testimonies of current ex-gays, who as they tell their stories with their spouses and children at their side, reinforce the concept that heterosexual living is a realistic goal for gays and lesbians.

It is not. It is realistic only for a tiny percentage, and the vast majority of those I have met, who tried and failed, left in their wake much pain for their families.

Christine said “holiness” not “wholeness”. She stated:

It’s not about heterosexuality, it’s about holiness” and it felt like I could not be holy now, and that God must have given up on me too.

There is a common mantra in the ex-gay world in the US,

The opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality, it is holiness.

The message is clear, you cannot be gay and Christian.

From my experience with many profoundly spiritual and loving Christians, who happen to also be romantically and sexually attracted to people of the same-sex, you can indeed be holy and gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender.

Peter, it sounds like your experience in the UK as an ex-gay is very different from many of our experiences here in the US. Darlene’s and Christine’s stories sound consistent with the hundreds of people I have encountered here and the folks who have shared their stories at BeyondExGay. Each is slightly different, but we see common themes emerge as people step up and tell their stories.

Some ex-gay leaders in the US have only just begun to take responsibility for their misleading messages. UK ex-gay leaders have been more forthcoming in clarifying the message. Change in orientation is not possible, but celibacy may be a realistic goal for some.

As ex-gay survivors step up and tell their stories, we have noted how defensive and even dismissive some ex-gays in the US have been.

From our contacts with hundreds of ex-gay survivors, the reality is that for most of the people who try to go ex-gay, it does not work, and that for many of these, their experiences have caused them more harm than good. Sure some good came of it, but at tremendous cost. If ex-gay leaders care more about pastoral care than politics, they would do well to consider our stories to see what they can do differently.

Perhaps there in the UK you have a better way of approaching all of this so that people do not experience the emotional, psychological and spiritual damage that many of us have encountered.

That is not to say we didn’t meet loving and caring people who attempted to help us in our former struggles. The problem was their teachings, although well meaning, actually ended up reinforcing shame while often casting blame on us when we were not successful in reaching the goals placed before us.

We have found and are finding better ways for ourselves, and we believe that others can be spared heartache and loss if they hear our witness and warnings.

Re: More responses to the London Times “Ex-Gay” piece

peterson toscano — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 03:55:12 -0000

Mario Bergner writes:
"These are the aches that motivate many people to find a way out of homosexuality, either through the church or through psychotherapy. For Christians, even if such attractions never go away, a life of singleness and holiness before God is better than the isolating emotional instability of the gay community."

I feel grateful that I discovered a much healthier LGBT community than the one that Mario Berger experienced some decades ago. No doubt gays can live a dissolute life just like straight folks can. Similarly we can live openly gay lives in integrity and with ever growing fruit of the Spirit. This has been my experience since coming out gay.

Re: A subtle shift?

peterson toscano — Sun, 01 Feb 2009 09:21:21 -0000

Peter by simplifying our message, you have misrepresented ex-gay survivors.
You write, " Indeed, that seems to be the issue with many of the “ex-gay survivors“, that they didn’t get “fixed” and therefore they concluded that they weren’t meant to get fixed in the first place."

Of course 25 years ago when I first began attending Exodus programs and events, the message was that Change IS Possible--meaning a change in orientation, supernatural and complete. Over the years the message changed (over the last couple years this change in "change" has been made more public). Over the 17 years I spent as ex-gay, I, like many others in the movement, adjusted with this message, mourned over the reality that an orientation transformation was not realistic but grateful that we could still pursue God and obey God's will as we understood it at that time.

The problem for many of us came not with the realization that we could not be "fixed" (btw a term that in the US also is used when we neuter a tomcat) but that in pursuing to change, submit, suppress (whatever word may fit) our sexuality, we experienced genuine harm. We desired to serve God and nurture the "Fruit of the Spirit" Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, etc. Instead we bore a bitter harvest of depression, suicidal tendencies, self-hatred, compulsive behavior and hostility towards ourselves and other gay people.

In doing the work to undo some of that damage, we have come together as a community of survivors to explore our ex-gay (or as you put it post-gay) experiences, what motivated us, what good came of our pursuits, what harm, and how we can come to a place where we achieve a healthy integration of our all parts of ourselves.

Re: A subtle shift?

peterson toscano — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:40:13 -0000

Peter, the link I provide above on Ex-Gay Harm will take you to an article that outlines nine different categories off harm I recorded after speaking to ex-gay survivors. In addition tothe multiple types of harms, I write about their diverse causes.

You better than most understand that complexity that exist for Christians who have struggled with homosexuality. Since the harm springs from much more than unrealistic expectations (and in some cases outright false promises) to include treatment, theory, misinformation and more, I will post extracts from the ex-gay harm article below.

Ex-Gay Harm: Let Me Count the Ways
by Peterson Toscano

Ex-Gay Harm--Let Me Count the Ways
by Peterson Toscano

In the past 4.5 years I have been in contact with over 1000 ex-gay survivors. These are people who pursued ex-gay experiences, either on their own, or more often, assisted by others like a therapist, minister, ex-gay program. They attempted to change or suppress their sexual orientation and may have referred to themselves as ex-gays or simply strugglers or by some other name.

Through hearing their stories (some of which posted here at Beyond Ex-Gay--bXg) and in unpacking my own ex-gay journey, I have begun to understand the many ways people can be harmed by their ex-gay experiences. Many of us also received certain benefits from our ex-gay experiences, but in most cases the harm outweighs the good.

Below is a list of categories outlining areas of harm along with brief descriptions for each. I invite ex-gay survivors to contact us at bXg with specific examples and further explanations for any of the categories that resonate for them. They can even add new categories.

Ex-gay experiences can harm us in several ways.

Emotional Harm--evidenced in feelings of shame, fear, stress, disappointment, exhaustion and rejection (especially when one is shunned)
Psychological Harm--manifested in the forms of depression, suicidal tendencies, post traumatic stress and in some cases the triggering of a psychotic break
Spiritual Harm--in the form of chronic discouragement, fear of God, and loss of faith communities and even of faith

o distrust of spiritual leaders
o a spiritual crisis of integrity and incongruence through the constant message that You cannot be gay and Christian

Relationship Harm--through the loss of vital relationships or damage to relationships with

o parents
+ who, believing change is possible and necessary, reject children who will not choose to be ex-gay
+ who through ex-gay teachings get blamed for their child's sexual orientation thus creating tension between the child and parent (and also causing deep pain and shame for parents)
o spouses/partners
+ partners of the opposite sex that we dated and married because we believed such a life was possible but found it led to divorce and pain and loss for our spouse, ourselves and others, including children.
+ relationship with a current same-sex partner that gets hindered because of the shame and fear drilled into us by our ex-gay experiences
o friends
+ who we kept/keep at a distance because we were trained to distrust intimacy for fear that we will develop an emotionally dependent/enmeshed relationship or romantic/sexual relationship
+ who we rejected once we became ex-gay and they represented a risk to the ex-gay lives we pursued
+ who rejected us because the conditional nature of the friendship. Once we no longer identified as ex-gay and a struggler, they ended the relationship

Financial Harm--

o Some spent hundreds of dollars to tens of thousands of dollars on ex-gay treatment, at seminars and conferences and on books and tapes
o Some parents refused to pay for college or even basic living expenses when a child would not attend an ex-gay program.

Career Harm--

o Some left careers considered "unsafe" for a struggler
o Some interrupted school and careers to take a diversion into ex-gay treatment

Physical Harm---in the form of health issues triggered by stress and depression leading to back problems, skin conditions, etc.

Sexual Harm--in the form of damaging sex eduction

o Sexually naive people (many who never even had sex) learned about "gay sex" from sex addicts who expressed their sexuality through risky and even illegal behaviors often because of the shame and self-loathing they felt.
o Program leaders, therapists and "testimonies" transmitted negative messages about sexual expression between people of the same-sex which can hinder people statue from enjoying a healthy, satisfying sexuality even after leaving ex-gay treatment.

* Developmental Harm--because of stunted growth in key areas while we focused our efforts on our ex-gay experiences. Many of us stopped living our lives and diverted our limited energies into the ex-gay process thus hindering personal growth at vital developmental moments

After reading this list, other ex-gay survivors weighed in to share their own experiences.

Re: A subtle shift?

peterson toscano — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:52:30 -0000

With such a rapid response (what in less than 4 minutes?) I wonder if you even had time to look at the list I information I provided. I don't feel like I am being heard, which sadly is what happens when I have talked to many others who provide or promote ex-gay ministry or reparative therapy.

I'm saying people have been harmed. The harm has multiple causes. Take a look at what I offer above and the various types of harms. This is not simply an either/or situation. This is complex and for many the damage has gone deep.

I imagine that people concerned with effective pastoral care would take interest in the testimonies of ex-gay survivors.

Re: A subtle shift?

peterson toscano — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:45:37 -0000

Peter, we are having two different conversations here. I posted yesterday to correct some misinformation about ex-gay survivors while it seems you want me to weigh in on an argument that is happening elsewhere.

If you no longer wish to identify as gay, choose to heterosexually partner, and use the term post-gay (a term that pro-gay rights queer scholor Thomas F. Murphy refers to in his Reader's Guide to Lesbian and Gay Studies, which he wrote about back in 2000), that's fine.

As we state over at the Beyond Ex-Gay home page, "We believe that ex-gay experiences cause more harm than good. Certain people who currently identify as ex-gay say they are content as such. We don’t seek to invalidate their experience. For us such a lifestyle was not possible or healthy."

From the list of harms above, you will notice that we speak about how the harm can and often does extend to include straight spouses and parents (and now I am hearing more and more about sons and daughters sharing their experiences of growing up in an ex-gay/straight household.) Our purpose at Beyond Ex-Gay is to expand the conversation to consider why people may choose an ex-gay path, what good if any comes of it, what harm people may experience, and effective strategies and approaches to recover from that harm.

We also recognize that the "ex-gay programs" are not solely responsible for the harm some of us experienced. These programs exist within a society that makes it so that gays and lesbian, particularly effeminized gay men, must conform to heterosexual and gender norms.

We have an extensive set of articles that may answer many of your questions as well as narratives, artwork, and poetry.

Re: A subtle shift?

peterson toscano — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 10:05:55 -0000

One of the reasons Christine Bakke and I created the Beyond Ex-Gay site was so that we can help foster a deeper discussion, one that cannot be adequate done through comments on a blog. Perhaps when I return to England in May you and I can have a more in depth conversation.

Re: A subtle shift?

peterson toscano — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:33:04 -0000

Peter, you may not be aware of it, but my role and focus have shifted considerably in the past two years (see my recent blog post) so you may find that there are others interested in the sort of on-line discussions you propose. My energies and passsion go towards supporting ex-gay survivors one-on-one and gender variance in the Bible through my play Transfigurations--Transgressing Gender in the Bible.

Beyond Ex-Gay provides a much needed insight into the lives of the many many people (most likely the majority) who for whatever reason and by whatever means pursued ex-gay experiences only to discover that they were unnecessary, ineffectual and in many cases damaging. We hope that these voices will help others proceed with a more informed discussion.

All the best,
Peterson

Re: Listening to ex-ex-gays

peterson toscano — Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:23:04 -0000

Peter, although one of our hopes at Beyond Ex-Gay is to foster a deeper discussion, (something that I see is already happening at your blog) our primary objective is to provide support and assistance to ex-gay survivors. This includes providing and maintaining a safe place where they can post their experiences and read of other experiences without having to subject themselves to some of the same harmful and misguided teachings and theories that they endured (along with some possibly thoughtful exchanges).

Coming from my Christian perspective, I see this as something akin to pastoral care. People come to us often hurting and needing to tell their stories. Some also offer to make their experiences public, first for their over healing and recovery and secondly as a witness to what they encountered in hopes of creating a change in a system that you yourself agree has had genuine flaws in its practices and promises.

There are many other forums where an understanding conversation occurs through the blogs of some of these ex-gay survivors, through comments on your own blog and others, in discussion of YouTube videos and more.

In considering people who come to us as ex-gay survivors, some need to find a place where their voices will be heard and not deafened by opponents and even gay activist and bloggers who have their own agendas. We also go out of our way to create a site that doesn't bash ex-gays. We tell our stories as a means of adding more information to a larger discussion.

Beyond Ex-Gay does not own this discussion, rather we provide people an opportunity to tell their stories. The individuals concerned about these stories take the discussion elsewhere.

Some blogs by folks who have contributed to Beyond Ex-Gay and who say they have been negatively affected by the ex-gay movement and homophobia in the church include:
Behind the Duct Tape
Rising Up Whole
Paradoxy
Nonsequitur's Soapbox
Two Worlds Collision
Living in the Bonus Round
Willful Grace
My Heart Goes Out
Joe Moderate

I appreciate your willingness to listen to the stories of ex-gay survivors.

Re: oom. pah.

peterson toscano — Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:46:25 -0000

Yumbo, that meal sounds delicioso. I love the images you evoke with your writing. I felt transported for a moment.