DISQUS

wow

wow

I think the moral of the story is that we all now know that D does now what robbing a liquor store feels like.

Ha.
;-)

I think the moral of the story is that we all now know that D does now what robbing a liquor store feels like.

Ha.
;-)

Hmm... this has generated a lot of comment.
I will allow this to take its original intent and stay out of it.
This will allow Daniel to review the comments and collect whatever (it has been limited) aid. He can then vet it and I will continue this with him.

I do appreciate all those that spoke up, pro/con, and participated in the exchange of ideas.

@Daniel... it will continue to be fun! LOL.

Hmm... this has generated a lot of comment.
I will allow this to take its original intent and stay out of it.
This will allow Daniel to review the comments and collect whatever (it has been limited) aid. He can then vet it and I will continue this with him.

I do appreciate all those that spoke up, pro/con, and participated in the exchange of ideas.

@Daniel... it will continue to be fun! LOL.

Again... the ring species shows the same kind with slight variation.
That can all be explained without millions/billions of years and a single common ancestor for ALL life. Using the common term 'species' is not accurate to reflect the conversation. It is more about 'kind'. As Daniel stated... I accept the changes in a 'species' as variation of the same 'kind'. Such as breeds of dog. That is not evolution... (as we have seen it in the past two hundred years) but rather gene manipulation. If it happens in the wild... we call it evolution. I accept the change in a 'species' to a different 'species' but the same kind. I hope that helps hone the topics and conversation.

Again... the ring species shows the same kind with slight variation.
That can all be explained without millions/billions of years and a single common ancestor for ALL life. Using the common term 'species' is not accurate to reflect the conversation. It is more about 'kind'. As Daniel stated... I accept the changes in a 'species' as variation of the same 'kind'. Such as breeds of dog. That is not evolution... (as we have seen it in the past two hundred years) but rather gene manipulation. If it happens in the wild... we call it evolution. I accept the change in a 'species' to a different 'species' but the same kind. I hope that helps hone the topics and conversation.

@ elpres

I would assume to believe it the way the majority of man-kind has known it for thousands of years... an inherent belief.

Also, I would argue (in current mind, not sure if I was wiped clean of thoughts) that creation declares the handy work of God.

@ elpres

I would assume to believe it the way the majority of man-kind has known it for thousands of years... an inherent belief.

Also, I would argue (in current mind, not sure if I was wiped clean of thoughts) that creation declares the handy work of God.

@ Alan

Those points are the exact ones Daniel is requesting aid in proving. At least some. I will also comically point out, some of the ones he started with have been restated again as fact, although they are easily dis-proven. And when I dis-proved them I did so all with creditable science not religious based info. I have on occasion linked to a particular Christian website that always uses foot notes to non-religious scientific sources.
And to answer your assumption, I would know they were ignorant of the facts that has formed my understanding yes, but I would have a respectful, intellectual conversation with them... and not make a prejudged determination on their intellect.

On a side note, I find it interesting how many references to evidence have been made but yet none provided.

@ Alan

Those points are the exact ones Daniel is requesting aid in proving. At least some. I will also comically point out, some of the ones he started with have been restated again as fact, although they are easily dis-proven. And when I dis-proved them I did so all with creditable science not religious based info. I have on occasion linked to a particular Christian website that always uses foot notes to non-religious scientific sources.
And to answer your assumption, I would know they were ignorant of the facts that has formed my understanding yes, but I would have a respectful, intellectual conversation with them... and not make a prejudged determination on their intellect.

On a side note, I find it interesting how many references to evidence have been made but yet none provided.

@ dashiel

Very bold to make such a statement without knowing what, or whom, you are talking about.

@ dashiel

Very bold to make such a statement without knowing what, or whom, you are talking about.

I take the bible literal and it would actually be 8-10,000 years old with the flood occurring 4-5,000 years ago.

I am going to form a response shortly, just go done reading the post.
I will address all stated issues.. and as Daniel stated my issue is not with a 'kind' (i.e. fly, moth, etc) changing.. or breeds of dogs.. they are still dogs.

More to come.

I take the bible literal and it would actually be 8-10,000 years old with the flood occurring 4-5,000 years ago.

I am going to form a response shortly, just go done reading the post.
I will address all stated issues.. and as Daniel stated my issue is not with a 'kind' (i.e. fly, moth, etc) changing.. or breeds of dogs.. they are still dogs.

More to come.

Carl,
I ask that you envision what you speak of.

If the governments involvement goes beyond providing opportunity, then it has exceeded its limits. You must realize that, in the name of the children, personal rights must not be trampled. You think it would not happen? It already does. You try to be a home schooler in certain states. Then you will see. In some states the local government is truly out to get you because you might not do a good job and will therefore destroy your children. "So send them to us, so we can!"

I purpose that the government cannot fix the issues you speak of, beyond that of opportunity. Personally, I think the federal government should not have any involvement in education. Simply state government.

I will let this die as I think we agree more than we have read and the 1-5% we disagree, this will not change it.

Have a great night and thanks for free thinking.

Carl,
I ask that you envision what you speak of.

If the governments involvement goes beyond providing opportunity, then it has exceeded its limits. You must realize that, in the name of the children, personal rights must not be trampled. You think it would not happen? It already does. You try to be a home schooler in certain states. Then you will see. In some states the local government is truly out to get you because you might not do a good job and will therefore destroy your children. "So send them to us, so we can!"

I purpose that the government cannot fix the issues you speak of, beyond that of opportunity. Personally, I think the federal government should not have any involvement in education. Simply state government.

I will let this die as I think we agree more than we have read and the 1-5% we disagree, this will not change it.

Have a great night and thanks for free thinking.

I agree with what is on the line and that we could be on the brink of losing it, but allow me to respond not so much 'at you' but at the topics you present:

"Libraries may be available. That doesn’t mean people have the time to utilize them. Even if they had time, what if people don’t have a CAR?"

To my knowledge all public schools are required to have a library and most cities have them. And if you review the demographics, those that do the worst, most have access.

also, do not assume I come from an intact, normal family. I come from a broken home. I was kicked out of school every year from 5th grade on. I cheated through certain classes in school. Partied to much. And everyone in my family thought I had lost it when I told them we were home schooling. I, as a man, made the decision to do what I knew was best. I have no compassion for anyone who is not willing to do the same. If you will not invest, you have not right to claim the reward. Just like finances, if you dont put money into an investment, when it hits you dont get a pay out. And if you make bad investments, you lose it all.

"I’m not disagreeing. All I’m saying is this: You can say life isn’t fair, but if you were bound to failure as some people are, you’d be saying more than that."

I understand that but as outlined briefly above, a lot of my peers are the ones you are saying are 'bound'. And that is my point. Are they? Are they bound? Are they captive, with no choice? I, and many like me, are proof the answer is no. I am not special. Anyone CAN do what I have done, if they decide to. But alas, it is a social problem. People coddle them, buy into he lie they have no options, and then their parents tell them that garbage and they say "see I couldn't make it". And then they fall into whatever social structure they fall and most, at least of those I knew, fall into dealing drugs and running scams, so that they ruin their lives. But everyone I knew could have chosen different paths, and I know a few that did and are all at verying levels of success.

So, if the bottom line is the parents are faulty and the kids do not have drive, how do you ever teach a child that what they are taught at home is wrong and that they should not end up like their parents. Make no mistake that is where the truth lies. So, the end of that road is government replaced parenting... is that really where you want to go? Again not you, but any who are reading???

I agree with what is on the line and that we could be on the brink of losing it, but allow me to respond not so much 'at you' but at the topics you present:

"Libraries may be available. That doesn’t mean people have the time to utilize them. Even if they had time, what if people don’t have a CAR?"

To my knowledge all public schools are required to have a library and most cities have them. And if you review the demographics, those that do the worst, most have access.

also, do not assume I come from an intact, normal family. I come from a broken home. I was kicked out of school every year from 5th grade on. I cheated through certain classes in school. Partied to much. And everyone in my family thought I had lost it when I told them we were home schooling. I, as a man, made the decision to do what I knew was best. I have no compassion for anyone who is not willing to do the same. If you will not invest, you have not right to claim the reward. Just like finances, if you dont put money into an investment, when it hits you dont get a pay out. And if you make bad investments, you lose it all.

"I’m not disagreeing. All I’m saying is this: You can say life isn’t fair, but if you were bound to failure as some people are, you’d be saying more than that."

I understand that but as outlined briefly above, a lot of my peers are the ones you are saying are 'bound'. And that is my point. Are they? Are they bound? Are they captive, with no choice? I, and many like me, are proof the answer is no. I am not special. Anyone CAN do what I have done, if they decide to. But alas, it is a social problem. People coddle them, buy into he lie they have no options, and then their parents tell them that garbage and they say "see I couldn't make it". And then they fall into whatever social structure they fall and most, at least of those I knew, fall into dealing drugs and running scams, so that they ruin their lives. But everyone I knew could have chosen different paths, and I know a few that did and are all at verying levels of success.

So, if the bottom line is the parents are faulty and the kids do not have drive, how do you ever teach a child that what they are taught at home is wrong and that they should not end up like their parents. Make no mistake that is where the truth lies. So, the end of that road is government replaced parenting... is that really where you want to go? Again not you, but any who are reading???

That is part of freedom, the freedom to screwup.
And that is the risk of parenting... you children paying for your failures.

That is part of freedom, the freedom to screwup.
And that is the risk of parenting... you children paying for your failures.

Okay... they do have the opportunity to be educated. I refuse to believe they have no choice. It may not be as easy for some as for others. But do they have libraries? Do they have access to internet at various locations? Are there tools that are in place?

Yes to all of these. As someone that has done a lot of self education I am tired of people saying there is not the option. And I do not feel that a barrier equals no opportunity. The problem is the parents are not educating their children, or rather over seeing the education of those children.

Yes the school system sucks. But life is not fair. When they get the chance for success and are faced with opposition, will we say the opposition of life is not fair? I am for reforming the schools from the ground up... heck we would save money in the long run. I never said the chance was equal. I said it was there. Some will have to work harder, yes. And I think it should be addressed but those that blame their failures on others and do not utilize everything within their power, then they would have failed with any level of help.

It gets back to the point of this post... PERSONAL responsibility.
You know what I did to make sure my children were properly educated... we are doing it ourselves. My wife is dedicated to the education of our children and we home school. And we did it (and know plenty that did) on $8-9/hr, single income family. So I do not want to hear "not everyone can do that". Yes you can. If it is important to you, you can. You may have to scale back the fast foods, what type of clothes you buy, cut coupons, drive older yet still reliable cars.

In conclusion, the greatest promotion/hinderence to 'opportunity' a child has is the family it is born into. And that is not a government problem. That is a social problem.

Okay... they do have the opportunity to be educated. I refuse to believe they have no choice. It may not be as easy for some as for others. But do they have libraries? Do they have access to internet at various locations? Are there tools that are in place?

Yes to all of these. As someone that has done a lot of self education I am tired of people saying there is not the option. And I do not feel that a barrier equals no opportunity. The problem is the parents are not educating their children, or rather over seeing the education of those children.

Yes the school system sucks. But life is not fair. When they get the chance for success and are faced with opposition, will we say the opposition of life is not fair? I am for reforming the schools from the ground up... heck we would save money in the long run. I never said the chance was equal. I said it was there. Some will have to work harder, yes. And I think it should be addressed but those that blame their failures on others and do not utilize everything within their power, then they would have failed with any level of help.

It gets back to the point of this post... PERSONAL responsibility.
You know what I did to make sure my children were properly educated... we are doing it ourselves. My wife is dedicated to the education of our children and we home school. And we did it (and know plenty that did) on $8-9/hr, single income family. So I do not want to hear "not everyone can do that". Yes you can. If it is important to you, you can. You may have to scale back the fast foods, what type of clothes you buy, cut coupons, drive older yet still reliable cars.

In conclusion, the greatest promotion/hinderence to 'opportunity' a child has is the family it is born into. And that is not a government problem. That is a social problem.

There is a lot of truth in this.

If you have not read 'The Rise and Fall or the Roman Empire' as well as 'Republic' you should. These books detail the events that caused the ruin of two of the greatest nations to ever stand. Self study will show strong correlation with England and you can also see where this were the tactics of failed en devours (such as Nazi Germany).

It is only be the social means that our country can be saved. It is by you and I living what is right and doing right that our country has any hope. Politicians are just that Poli-tics (Latin: Many blood suckers).

No laws can raise someone from the bottom. Everyone is born into this nation with the chance, barring birth defects and such, to achieve success. This is a social issue and if the government gets involved it will escalate the demise, not help.