DISQUS

Joel No offense taken. I enjoy a good debate or even argument from time to time. But I think most of the people on this site attempt to limit their conversations to the particular subject at hand and not engage in things that could be considered direct personal attacks. As we only get to type back and forth to each other, it is often difficult to convey sarcasm or other subtle nuances that we could convey with facial expressions or speech patterns when speaking face to face. On top of that, this is a Christian website and most of us try to behave accordingly. I look forward to further debates with you.

Joel Slider,
I don't claim (nor did I claim in my post above) to be an expert on anything. I am simply relating how I came to hold the beliefs I do through the experiences I have had. I have seen the effects of our nation's military being unleashed on people much weaker than us. I have seen the effects of America's strong arm economic tactics to ensure that third world nations stay that way in order to continue to provide us with cheap goods. It pains me that behavior is a matter of national policy. As far a criticizing the church, that depends on how you define church. Is it the church as the institution or the church as all Christians united through Christ. You better believe that I hold the church as an institution accountable for its actions. The church as an institution is a worldly institution. The church as all Christians united through Christ is a foreshadowing of the Kingdom of Christ. I pray for both the church and for the U.S. and its leaders. I also pray for North Korea's leaders and for Iran's leaders. I will also pray for Muslims and Hindus. I am well aware that many have been wounded or died in the service of this nation. Many more have been wounded or died in the service of other nations. Some our allies. Some the enemies of this nation. I have seen it with my own eyes and I will not assign a priority to one as being any more important or tragic than another. God certainly has done and will continue to do many great things through this nation. Often, in spite of ourselves. I know that the American people are very charitable and I don't wish to discount that. But I also don't wish to support a national system that seems to work very hard to make sure that there are always plenty of good causes for us to need to be charitable towards. If any of these beliefs of mine make you think that I am self-righteous, I would have to disagree. I am a wretched sinner with much to repent for in my past, present and I'm sure any future that God would be gracious enough bestow upon me. As far as your attempt to personally be-little my 11 years in the military as simply "swabbing decks", I don't believe that I will respond in kind. I will simply say this... Have you have ever answered the phone late at night and had to kiss your family goodbye, not being able to tell them where you are going or when you will be back ( if you come back ) and then get loaded on a plane with your battle gear and weapon to be deposited in a foreign country in a time national crisis as I have? If so, I would expect a little more understanding and respect for my service. If you haven't, well, is that how your 40 years of experience in the church have taught you to treat people?

Father Robert Lyons The problem is, unfortunately, divided loyalties. I cannot pledge allegiance to a nation-state and pledge allegiance to God. It's one or the other.

The state has proven that it cannot solve the greater problems of poverty, injustice, and violence that are plaguing our planet. Only Jesus can truly bring peace.

Those of us who choose to stand apart from the state stand in our own local communities, our personal mission grounds if you will, have the chance to be far more effective in these ways.

I pray for the United States and for the world at large on a daily basis. That being said, I wholly reject the notion that anyone died for my freedom, save for Jesus Christ. I am no more or less free than a Christian in China. Yes, I am more likely to remain unassailed for my faith in the United States than I am in China, or Iran, or elsewhere - but the freedom to practice my faith is given to me by God, not by man. Nobody, save Christ, has died to secure my freedom.

Has the Church done damage? Definately. But some of us are trying to to change that for the better.

Rob+

Joel Does this bashing of America offend you? The U.S. isn't the only country that cherishes freedom, liberty and the opportunity to worship un-inhibited. There are many around the world, but most Americans seem to think that we are the only ones. But I don't think that we should simply save our "bashing" for just the good ole USA. We should be going against every form of authority that is not of the Kingdom. I actually prefer not to "bash". I simply choose to lable the worldly forms of authority as illegitimate and impotent. And how did I come to hold my views? It was not at some emergent/missional/new monastic gathering. I came to hold my views during my 11 years of service in the military of the U.S.. I saw first hand how the U.S. govt. suppresses other nations and people (many of whom are Christians) just so we can have relative "peace" at home and cheap goods to fill the shelves in our stores. That is not the type of behavior condoned by the Kindom that I pledge total alleigence to now.

J.Ted Voigt yeah that's a really good point. I feel like "subversive" as a label is something I would only apply in hindsight, not necessarily like "lets go be subversive." hip and trendy or not, and labels aside, I do feel like it is a natural result of being an earnest follower of Jesus. but you're right, living it comes first. if not then it's a sort of hollow complaining.