Disqus - Latest Comments for Wayne

Re: http://kathleenrichards.blogspot.com/2009/01/nope-not-me.html

Wayne — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:29:00 -0000

Great not me monday, I heard that those gutar hero games can be quite lethal for the hands and fingers

Re: Dobbs Calls Condi A ‘Cotton Pi…’

Wayne — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:55:00 -0000

Liberal idiots? I guess I am a liberal, whatever that means, but I am no idiot. I don't see what the fuss is about, anyway. It doesn't sound to me that he meant anything by it. As far as Lou Dobbs and CNN being liberal, ummm no. They are not. The whole idea of labeling people liberal or conservative seems silly to me. I don't know why it finds a place here in this conversation. There are opinions, and there are facts, and no individual faction owns the truth.

Re: http://www.kansasbob.com/2007/09/blinking-joel-osteen.html

Wayne — Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:59:00 -0000

Ugh, everything about this doofus is creepy. Sometimes I watch him just for the fun of it, because it gives me a sick thrill to see that dome-sized church with the hundred thousand poor fools he's roped in. The only one better is Benny Hinn.

Re: http://www.fairyblogmotherblog.com/2009/08/kroger-mega-savings-event-giveaway.html

Wayne — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 06:33:22 -0000

I shop at Kroger. It is very near my home. Love the double coupons and sale prices.

Re: http://www.gorkem-ercan.com/2006/11/if-only-browser-control-had-access-to.html

Wayne — Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:59:00 -0000

The browser control does let you execute arbitrary JavaScript. Can't you use that to access the DOM?

Getting an Eclipse application to manipulate the DOM of a document in an embedded browser is relatively easy, having the contents of the browser drive events into Eclipse is harder (I suppose you could poll the browser with JavaScript or something).

Re: http://www.gorkem-ercan.com/2007/09/sudoku-now-in-your-mobile-phone.html

Wayne — Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:33:00 -0000

My implementation was never meant to compete with anything. Really. Frankly, it represents about two days of effort and my main focus was to build a platform that I could use to play around with building solvers. One of the things that I think is really cool about my game is that within a few days of making it available, I received two contributions that added new puzzle generators and solvers without modifying a single line of my code. And then Chris made it work multi-player.

I have plans to add some new functionality like the ability manually enter a puzzle, and a new user interface that's compatible with RAP.

Re: Atheists shunned in Oklahoma town - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:19:00 -0000

Makes you want to move to Sweden or something...However - I'm not surprised by this treatment. The "good 'ol boy" network is in full swing, and you know that no one will stand beside this girl, even though thay all keep saying "we don't push anyone aside".

I had to laugh about the atheist=satan worshipper. Apparently, those townfolk don't seem to get the atheist concept...

Re: Pastor charged with rape and sodomy - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:31:00 -0000

"his life has always been lined up with the word"

Hmmm - the word includes sodomizing 15 year old girls, apparently?

Re: Priests brawl at Jesus' birthplace - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Fri, 28 Dec 2007 01:54:00 -0000

I'm picturing Samuel L. Jackson dressed as a Catholic priest doing his bit from "Pulp Fiction"...

That would be awesome...

Re: Teacher at Christian school charged with having sex with student - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:21:00 -0000

Where were these teachers when I was in school?

Re: Worshippers praise youth pastor for confessing to 1994 murder - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:17:00 -0000

This just pisses me off to no end.

Yeah, he's a real fuckin' hero... Tell that to the family of his victim.

Are we stuck in Bizarro World or something?

Re: Dr. Marlene Winell on CNN talking about the recent murder in Colorado - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 22:46:00 -0000

Hey anon (the xtian one)... Actually, most of us "know it all" atheists freely admit to NOT knowing it all. A rational mind isn't afraid to question things or even admit being WRONG once in a while.

I find that it's the loudmouth christians that just KNOW that they are "god's" chosen ones, and they just KNOW that only they know the true path, and they just KNOW that every word in that rag of a book (which was assembled by Constantine, btw) is perfect and the word of god (which were actually taken from Sumerian & ancient Egyptian texts, among others).
The only thing I'm really sure I know... most of you "buy-bull" thumpers seem more than happy to reject things like facts, evidence, PROOF (even if it's right before your eyes) if it contradicts that silly fiction of yours.

You're not going to convince anyone here with your weak and circular arguments. Go back to your little closed minded prayer circle, hold hands, sing your little songs, and just fantasize yourself holy oblivion.

Re: Dr. Marlene Winell on CNN talking about the recent murder in Colorado - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 22:50:00 -0000

One other thing - I have a great sense of humor... when I hear something funny. You're just sad and delusional.

Here's something funny... picture an idiot running around telling everyone that a big man who lives in the sky loves us, unless we are bad and don't give lip service to his son. Then he'll hate us and leave us to fry with no sunblock forever...

That's a story that makes me laugh...

Re: Dr. Marlene Winell on CNN talking about the recent murder in Colorado - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 02:59:00 -0000

Hey "Troy" - try replacing the word JESUS or GOD with THOR or ZEUS in that bible of yours and see how ridiculous it sounds.

Now... tell me again why we should believe it because it says Jesus?

BTW "Troy"... Jesus = Horus

Look it up. You may learn a few things if you ever decide to crack open any other book besides the buy-bull.

Re: Dr. Marlene Winell on CNN talking about the recent murder in Colorado - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:50:00 -0000

Hey Boomslang - your Shazam line made me choke on my coffee!
Let's replace all of the "Jesus" references in the bible with SHAZAM!!! Brilliant!

It'd give the book a whole new feel, huh? :)

Re: Grassley, Baucus Urge Four Ministries to Cooperate with Information Request - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 04:27:00 -0000

They need to show the movie "Marjoe" to Congress. I think it would help light a few more fires under their feet to get the rest of the charlatans as well...

Re: They prayed to cast Satan from my body - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 02:12:00 -0000

I am utterly speechless... I can't imagine the abuse that DIDN'T get reported.

Re: Youth pastor faces charges for sex with underage girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 00:30:00 -0000

""This kind of evil behavior takes place frequently in secular venues, but when it occurs in a holy setting like God's House, it is especially grevious," Pastor Kenneth Spink said in a statement."

Secular venues? Yeah...uh... This is just going on all the time. I was at the library, and a HUGE orgy was happening by the periodicals.... (insert sarcasm here)

Re: Catholic League goes crackers over "hate crime" - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:15:00 -0000

This has got to be the most ridiculous thing EVER. Someof these yahoos even want this punished as a HATE CRIME. Let's consider this...

That means they think:
Desecrated cracker = Matthew Shepard

They actually want a cracker to have the same rights as a human being. The Eucharist is the "victim".

You've have got to be fucking kidding me. When will this bullshit end?

Re: Catholic League goes crackers over "hate crime" - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Wayne — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 03:03:00 -0000

BilltBee wrote "It's a far flung notion, but I'd suppose many would esteem the cracker above a human being..."

The guy (who originally smuggled the eucharist) has been receiving death threats. I guess that answers the question.

BTW - I read your story about St. Edwards... I'm appalled that they can just bald-faced LIE to kids like that. I'm glad you broke free...

Re: Trying to find peace in my soul - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Wayne — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:34:00 -0000

Hi Folks, After reading several of the responces here. it appears that religion was invented to pretend to impress others that they have some sort of closeness or a personal affiliation with their invisible God. Take Glenn for instance, not knowing anything about him, nor he about us, yet he has taken on the title of Preacher, now either he is a full fledged Preacher called by a God or he's either a fake, I personally do not believe or think for one minute that a God has singled Glenn out of, say millions of people, and call him personally to represent his Holyness. This invisible God, Sorry Glenn, but you loose on this one. Now other people that want to pretend that a God calls them personally, it's just what they want to believe, it has nothing to do reality. Glenn sorry to tell you but you are clearly a fake, and you only represend what you yourself want to believe, and you're trying to impress others that you are a man called by a Universal God. But it is totally you Glenn that has elected and appointed yourself the title of Preacher. I do not think you have convinced the regular posters on this websight. I believe that the only person you have convinced that you are a preacher, called by a God is yourself. Who are you trying to fool Glenn?

Re: Where are you, God? - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Wayne — Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:27:00 -0000

Scott -
Although I can never know how you REALLY feel - I have had similar events happen to me in my life, and you have my sincerest empathy.

Don't look for an answer from a god who isn't there. It will only open your heart up to more pain and confusion. Sh*tty things happen for no good reason, and time is the only thing we can count on to eventually dull the pain. Religion will never give you an answer - only more questions and mysterious phrases like "it's God's will".

I hope you can pull through soon. Losing such a huge part of yourself is the hardest thing that can ever happen. Find strength in yourself to heal - not because "god" wants you to, but because your son would want you to.

Wayne

Re: Cutting the tie that binds - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Wayne — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 23:53:00 -0000

Hey anon...
seems like every time I opened myself for the possibility of believing - something terrible would happen. Nervous breakdown, death of a friend, death of my mother, etc...

Is this what your lord does for people to help usher them back into the fold?

There is nothing you can do do deem yourself worthy of this god you so highly regard,because every sect of christianity has a different tweak on things...what and what isn't a "sin".

If you truly followed the buy-bull, you don't need to feel bad for treating your wife and kids badly. It's all fine and dandy, because kids and women are property according to that wretched book.

The day you rely on faith is the day you stop trying to understand, and that equals a closed mind.

Re: I can't do it anymore - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Wayne — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 01:12:00 -0000

All I reaaly have to add to this is that you can find support here - through your fellow ex-tians - in lieu of anyone closer to you. I've personally found that just knowing that this many others who feel this way are out here, it helps me get through my dealings with my christian family.

Stay strong, keep your mind clear, and you'll pull through.

Re: Never again am I going to believe anything anybody tells me without hard proof - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Wayne — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:29:00 -0000

Great post!

I'm so happy when another can "come out" and not feel ridiculed or pressured to "return to the fold". I hope you've found this site as an oasis in a desert of xtian nonsense as much as I have.

Speaking of the mega-evangelists, have you ever seen the movie "Marjoe"? It won the 1972 Academy Award for Best Documentary, and it exposes the fraud that is the evangelical preacher... I recommend it to anyone and everyone. It's a truly disturbing and fascinating film.

Anyhoo... Welcome to your newly found REAL FREEDOM!!!!!

Re: But what if you're WRONG!? - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Wayne — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 02:17:00 -0000

You should see if you can get your hands on Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go of God". It's really excellent. She touched on pretty much everything that I went through during my "de-conversion" along with some that I didn't.

It's funny, tear jerking at times, and deeply honest. I'm sure it'll lead you toward an answer to the "what if you're wrong" feelings.

Chin up - you are on the road to really LIVING LIFE. Kudos!

Re: "A Sabbatical?" or "My Anti-Testimony" - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 01:00:00 -0000

.:webmaster:. said...

To all Anonymous Christian Nazis, I want you all to notice something. If you do a Google search for ex-Christian websites, you'll come up with a few. Then if you do a Google search for Christian websites, count how many you come up with. Then, of those Christian websites, check how many allow comments to be made by dissenting voices. Hell, check how many allow any comments at all!

Then, ask yourself why.

7/18/2006 6:10 AM

The Christian sites are very boring.
It is far more enjoyable to argue with you guys. Admit it; without Christians to argue with this site would wilt and die in a week.

Think about it. Then, ask yourself why.

Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Tue, 04 Jul 2006 20:54:00 -0000

Wm,

I didn’t answer your questions because they seemed rhetorical. According to your “World Religions Chart” I would bet that only a very small percentage of the nearly 2 billion that claim Christianity are represented on your site. And no, I don’t know how many pastors and ministers are secretly criminals and haven’t been discovered yet. Did you expect me to know that? I can’t read the future either or move small objects with my mind, just in case you had some other silly questions to ask.

This site has been developed with the intent of “supporting those who had shed Christianity”. I think that’s great. Whether or not I think it is right or wrong those who have left Christianity feel they need support and I am glad they feel like they have a place to go. But I have reread my posts and I can not see where I stated that Christianity is the only way, or that ex-Christians need to come back, or anything like that. Where did I say that? I don’t want to convert anyone. You all weighed the evidence and made your choice. Fine, good, end of story.

All I mean by tolerance is this. Many of the ex-ians on this site tote themselves as “freethinkers”. They have escaped the mind cult and freed their inner selves. But I fail to see how they act any different than the Christians they left behind. They complain that Christians are hate-filled and unloving, and then bash and slander a Christian when they wander onto this site. If I had portrayed myself as an atheist and told “someone” that it may be wrong for us to generalize Christians in a particular way it would have been met with thought and consideration. But because a Christian said it then we totally disregard the content and focus only on the messenger. This to me is the very embodiment of intolerance. How is it any different than any other sort of bigotry? Judge the outside, ignore the inside. Christians do this as well, all too often.

Wm: You see, Wayne, there are probably thousands of Christian websites where Christians can tell each other how wonderful it is to be a Christian and how awful it is to be an atheist, but even one site that promises to assist people who are leaving Christianity is absolutely intolerable, isn't it? You want those who have left Christianity to tolerate Christianity, not only in deed, but in word, thought and emotion. I suggest you take your own advice and give Lorena the space she craves. Tolerate her apostasy. Leave her, and people like her, alone. Besides, is your God so weak that he/she/it can't influence Lorena without your help?

Think about it Wayne. Think about it.

I have no problem with this site. Support each other all you need. Rally more to your cause. It really doesn’t bother me. That is the beauty of this country. We all can chose. I NEVER pushed Christ onto anyone. Like everyone else here I stated my OPINION; unlike everyone else I was met with opposition. I do not expect everyone to tolerate Christianity as you describe, I expect everyone to tolerate it the same way I am expected to tolerate heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals, pro-lifers, pro-choicers, democrats, republicans, independents, blacks, whites , red, yellow, tall, short, fat, thin, smart, dumb, handicapped, young, old, citizens, immigrants, foreigners, illegal’s, etc…

Wm: "Like most of the material on this site, it's right there in front of you. You just have to pay attention."

Like everything else in the universe your point of veiw determines everything. Virtually nothing, outside of mathmatics maybe, is universally held as "truth" or "fact". Except maybe the "Other" button.

Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Tue, 04 Jul 2006 21:16:00 -0000

Fred,

I can't sit here and explain the creation of the universe to you. I really don't know. I hope to find out one day. But explain to me how the "God Creation" theory is any more or less credible than the "Big Bang" theory. God creating the universe is absurd but the big bang makes perfect sense. Tell me if I have this right....

..."A long, long time ago there was a bunch of dust and gas just floating and then in an instant there was billions of galaxies with rotating solar systems and planetary bodies and comets and stars and everything came together perfectly in that perfect instant."

That sounds more Devine than the creation theory. I really have no idea how we got here. We both no what I believe the answer to be so I won’t bother sharing it.

You have called what I believe, or what you assume I believe, to be nonsense. I don’t see how it is any less logical then “we all evolved from the primordial ooze”; “that all life came from the same single celled organisms”. Can you add more credence to one theory or the other? Perhaps God INTENDED for us to evolve from the ooze. How about that?

Why is what you believe so much more logical than what I believe? How is your complete lack of knowledge about the universe any more credible than my complete lack of knowledge about the universe?

As far as you other questions I will not bother with a detailed answer. I am not afraid; I do not have low self-esteem. I have coped with ignorance the same way you have coped with yours: I found a solution that makes sense to me and I’m going with it. When you can prove the “Big Bang”, hand me a vile of the primordial ooze, or show me definitive proof that we evolved from dust with no Devine assistance, then, and only then, will you have any cause to tell me what I believe is wrong.

Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Tue, 04 Jul 2006 22:41:00 -0000

Fred,

Fred said: "The answer is to the creation of the universe is that no one knows and has never known and will never know.

It has absolutely nothing to do with a god."

Those too statements kind of contradict each other, wouldn't you say Fred. You state that you, nor anyone, will ever know. But then you presume to know, or at least know what it isn't. To sum up, you don't know and can't know what it is but you do know what it isn't......Right.

As for the rest of your post, you just repeated that which you already said without adding anything new. Instead of answering a question posed to you you turned it on me trying to avoid answering. I asked you what you beleived. Try it again.

You should probably run for public office.

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Wed, 05 Jul 2006 16:04:00 -0000

Fred,

Fred said: Wayne is backed into a corner and is grasping for straws...lol

Fred, you didn't answer one question. You just contridicted yourself by claiming you don't have the answers but then claiming that you "know" my answers are wrong. Then you get confident becasue the big wm fought a fight for you and then sent you back out to play.

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Thu, 06 Jul 2006 22:56:00 -0000

Fred,

I know that you "beleive" that you are right, just as I "beleive" I am right.

Fred: "You cannot prove me wrong Wayne."

Correct. And you can not prove me wrong. You can't prove he doesn't exist just like I can't prove that he does. We are at a bit of a crossroads here. If you can accept that neither of us "knows" or "doesn't know" the answers or possibilities that may be, then at least we can agree to disagree. If however you think that you have somehow proven your case or point then you're simply a dope. Sorry, but there it is.

Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 00:39:00 -0000

What are you waiting for then? Prove it.

Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 15:39:00 -0000

wm,

What do you beleive then to be the answers? How did we get here? Do you beleive that it is just that the universe created itself? And please articulate how your beleifs are not "fantastic" and therefore do not require proof.

I do not beleive that my "understand" of the universe around us are anymore "fantastic" than any other "logical" therory. I have also yet to find someone out there besides Christians who will state thier true beleifs and stand by them. Sitting on the fence and shooting down everyone elses therories while failing to state your own is cowardly. I can't prove my beleifs, can you prove yours?

"It's the responsibility of the person making fantastic claims to provide the evidence" the wm.

Well, it should be real easy then to prove your very ordinary, logical and unfantastics beleifs then.

Waiting

Wayne

Re: God is your ATM, Prayer is your PIN - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:30:00 -0000

This was one of the funniest vids I've seen in a long time! Keep posting this stuff!

Re: Car = Art?

Wayne — Thu, 07 May 2009 07:57:00 -0000

Art has no function other than art, if the car is used as a car then you have your answer.

Re: http://www.tipsblogger.com/2008/11/how-to-add-feedburner-email.html

Wayne — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:27:10 -0000

thanks for the tip!

Re: http://www.offendedblogger.com/2008/06/fetish-cooties-yummm-offensive.html

Wayne — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:05:00 -0000

You go girl! hahahaha! Love the wit and sarcasm! Much love your way!

Re: http://www.offendedblogger.com/2008/06/let-voting-begin.html

Wayne — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 17:57:00 -0000

Isn't it: "If my ear was a cunt I would fuck it"

At least, that's how I've always said that...

Re: http://www.offendedblogger.com/2008/06/let-voting-begin.html

Wayne — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 17:58:00 -0000

And it's an old limerick...not original...

Re: MLS Clubs Taking Advantage of EPL Fans in States

Wayne — Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:37:00 -0000

Gaffer - The RSL Website is not very clear, but you can buy individual tickets to the Everton or Boca Juniors games. Goto "Single Game Tickets" on the website. This shows all of the games for the season. Choose the "T" (for tickets) next to Everton/Boca and you can purchase your individual game tickets.

Re: PMA Celebrates Thanksgiving Too! Viewer Discretion Advised

Wayne — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 18:41:56 -0000

Happy Turkey Day!

Re: GrandCentral Invites - I Have a Few Left | Charles Hudson's Weblog

Wayne — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:19:46 -0000

If anyone has an invite to spare it would be much appreciated. I would be happy to share 5 of my invites with other users here once i get them. wayoff111 at hotmail.com

Re: spirituality in the real world

Wayne — Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:07:20 -0000

hear hear!

Re: spiritual discipline, not

Wayne — Tue, 08 Apr 2003 15:39:56 -0000

yr link is broken...

Re: My Acronym

Wayne — Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:32:00 -0000

W-Wild
A-Altruistic
Y-Yucky
N-New
E-Excellent

I'm YUCKY?!

Re: I want my cats to be famous like these cats…

Wayne — Wed, 04 Aug 2004 12:52:00 -0000

*blink*

*blink*

Cats watching Cats on monitor.

Are they like, doing the whole Cam2Cam thingy?!

Re: Sentimentality

Wayne — Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:18:00 -0000

H*LL breaks loose when I get sentimental.

But I agree with TunaGirl. :) It's the people, not the land.

Re: Close call

Wayne — Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:49:00 -0000

*GASP*

Re: Me! Blog of the Day!

Wayne — Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:31:00 -0000

Yay :)

Re: Domestic Dude

Wayne — Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:09:00 -0000

OH WOW!!!!!! You can make bread!!!!!

(I can't make bread, but I can sure boil water)

Re: Cool Temps/Cool News!

Wayne — Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:57:00 -0000

YEEEEEAAAHH!!! That's so COOOL!!! I mean, like, totally, kick ass!!!! YAY!!!! YAY!!!!!!!

Re: I need to watch more TV

Wayne — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:37:00 -0000

Oooh EXACTLY! Wait until the Men's Gymnastics are on.... HRMMM!!

Re: More Strange Happenings in the Online World

Wayne — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:56:00 -0000

That's an interesting pick-up line... Didn't seem to work though. I'll have keep that in mind.

Re: Just some stuff

Wayne — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:01:00 -0000

Blaine... OH BLAINE... OH YES OH YES OH YES OOOHHH

*wakes up*

er... yeah....

OH BLAINE!!

Re: Thinking

Wayne — Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:46:00 -0000

IRS IS EVIL.

EVIL EVIL EVIL.

VERY EVIL.

(It took me months, to really start to kick-in what, and why I blog)

But yeah, IRS IS EVIL.

Re: Rate my kitten

Wayne — Wed, 01 Sep 2004 02:41:00 -0000

*GASP*

Another Sink Babe!!!

CUTIE!

Re: Lube-alicious

Wayne — Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:02:00 -0000

Gee, I didn't know there are so many different brands and so many different uses... and totally, I want to try those KY "Self-Heating" Lube. I saw the commerical once, and the gal in there seemed very "happy"

Re: Brain Fuzz

Wayne — Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:44:00 -0000

You know, my ex-Manager lives and works in FL... *ahem* I feel guilty for not getting in touch with him regarding the Hurrican....

the last time I heard about him, was a co-worker saying that the ex-manager had been busy stabling cardboards to the window and packing up stuff...

Yikes....

Re: Resume of George W. Bush

Wayne — Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:53:00 -0000

Cheerleader?!

Pfft, no way. He ain't no got no boobs.

Re: Insomnia

Wayne — Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:23:00 -0000

I'd wear a T-shirt that says "B*Tches, Ya'll Mine!"

Re: Sex Sex Sex Sex Sex Sex Sex Sex Sex (Nothing Much) Sex Sex Sex Sex Sex Sex Sex Sex

Wayne — Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:56:00 -0000

Just with that title, you gonna get more hits to your blog than ever :P

Re: Vodka + Rick Don’t Mix and Other Flirtations

Wayne — Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:32:00 -0000

Oh oh, tell the new member that I say HI!!!

Re: 100 Posts + 2000 Hits = WOW!

Wayne — Thu, 07 Oct 2004 01:31:00 -0000

Well, congrats Little Boy, on this amazing kick ass milestone that your blog (and YOU) have achieve.

Keep blogging, baby :D

Re: He’s hot and all.. but….

Wayne — Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:03:00 -0000

Do you know how difficult it is to achieve that level of Hollywood White-nees? See, the usual procedure for Hollywood Whitening, would take up to $2000 at the dental office. *ahem* But you can do it too at home, by using various Teeth Whitening products (the strips works too)... up to 4 weeks of non-stop every day treatment.. your teeth can be as pale as a ghost.

I personally have tried the home-teeth-whitening thingy...2 weeks... intensive whitening gel... totallly numbed my gum and made my teeth ultra sensistive... but my teeth ended up 3 levels whiter than before!!!!

(after 10 cups of coffee and tea, plus a couple bars of chocolate, the whiteness went bye bye..)

Re: Swamped!

Wayne — Thu, 14 Oct 2004 02:19:00 -0000

I think BUsh was on something. He didn't even answer 1/2 of the questions that were asked.

Re: Bursting the Bubble and Other Tricks

Wayne — Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:44:00 -0000

Right. Get the cushin' cleaned (at laundormat or dry cleaned) --- and then, try to rearrange your sofas...(if there's room) and also, for at least 2 weeks, spray some air refresner (fabreeze?) on the cushing..so the Cat won't recongize it's a potty box.
Remember, to scoop up some poo of the kitty and place it in the litter box.. so the kitty will learn where the bathroom is.

Re: Four more years

Wayne — Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:20:00 -0000

Canada, here I come.

Re: Autumn in New York

Wayne — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:20:00 -0000

Hey... I'm sorryu that I missed you :(

But glad to hear that you are having a great time in New York. :)

Re: Bill O’Reilly Loses His Shit

Wayne — Thu, 22 May 2008 11:20:40 -0000

He's an ill-tempered, ignorant pissant.

Re: Jim Wallis: Video of Davos Religion Roundtable

Wayne — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:49:22 -0000

Donny Morality dures AIDS? Go to Africa and see what the reality is. Young widows with children they cannot feed because there is no work so they resort to prostitution. Jobs could surely cure AIDS but morality is not something you can afford when put in the position of these women. I have been there. I have seen it. Donny all you have to do is think instead of judge. Your morality is very convenient given you have probably never lived through what the people of Africa or South East Asia are currently experiencing. I suggest you might want to "go and sin no more!"

Re: Jeff Carr: What Would You Ask Iran’s President?

Wayne — Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:52:24 -0000

In what ways have we wronged each other as nations? How can we work together to build relationships of trust, peace and cooperation?

Re: Jeff Carr: What Would You Ask Iran’s President?

Wayne — Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:03:57 -0000

neuro I know that. I have friends who are Iranian, but the question is a possible first step toward reconciliation. The best first step would be to ask how has our nation hurt yours but that would only have been met with howls from many here. There is nothing wrong with admitting to our wrongs. Perhaps there might be an admition on Ahmadinejad's part. I doubt it, but perhaps. Maybe it would catch him off guard. Maybe he might think about jihad and armeggedon a little differently. I am certain he would do neither of these if some of these more confrontational approaches were taken.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Wed, 09 May 2007 01:40:42 -0000

Kevin Name one serious legislative proposal that contained anything like amnesty. Fines? yes. Back taxes? Yes. Amnesty? never heard of it. Wolverine When did your folks do this legal entry ?
In the past immigration was far easier than it is today. that is at least part of the problem. People like lou Dobbs are fear mongerers and deserve every cheap shot they get and more. Show me one Christian way of dealing with the undocumented who are already here that does not include a means of legalizing them. I submit it cannot be done. Separation of church and state cannot mean I leave my values, my fellow man and My Lord out of the discussion simply because I am afraid of Osama and his minions. If I am first and foremost an American,or and Ethiopian for that matter, I am quite possibly not a Christian. Wayne

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Wed, 09 May 2007 02:46:42 -0000

TLB You and I cannot force Mexico to do anything, unless you mean we would let them out of those parts of NAFTA that have worsened their economy. They are here. The question is not what will be percieved but what will we do that could qualify as "caring" "helping" or dare I say it, loving, (not to mention solving the problem). So far all I hear from those opposed to the legalization of those already here, is fear based extremism that refuses to admit it is bigotry, pure and simple We do not need to fear people just because they speak spanish and do not yet share our cultural values, beyond the desire for the American dream. Nothing that these people have done is reason to fear and act hatefully toward them. In my opinion they should have been welcomed at the border, not forced through the desert anyway, but disagree if you will, solve the problem without legalizing them. Show us the way. Amnesty is amnesty. If we refuse to call penalizing someone "amnesty" then perhaps the "perception" would change. THERE IS NO PROPOSED AMNESTY!!! If you want to say there is because you are afraid of some future event that hasn't happened and no one can say will happen, I am sorry, it is a lie and will always be a lie. 500,000 Mexican nationals came over our border in 2005. They found jobs. We are still here and doing fine by any and all standards. Why are we afraid of these people? It is time for a real answer to this problem. We need to stop scaring each other. those who are being hurt will not be helped by our fear and inaction. Manage the borders with a guest worker program. Check everyone coming over. Increase border security. Provide a way for the legalization of all who are here. Anyone who has committed a crime can and should be punished in a manner fit for the offense. I cannot remember a time someone paid a $2,000.00+ fine for the mere commision of a misdemeanor, much less having it then called amnesty.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Wed, 09 May 2007 07:50:12 -0000

Kevin In Arizona legislators are trying to enact a law that will make it a crime of trespassing to be in the state without documentation, in effect allowing our local police to enforce federal law. One major effect will be that women who are being abused and children who are being molested will not call on police for fear of being deported. This is not conjecture, it is logic. Our police are begging them not to do this but if the Governor vetoes the bill these same legislators promise it will be put on the ballot for the public to vote on. Our Sherriff Joe Arpaio is prosecuting the undocumented as co-conspirators with their coyotes for smuggling them into the country. Some cases have been won and some thrown out. Don't tell me hr 4437 wasn't worded broadly to allow for this. Sennsenbrenner is just another fear mongering fool and is very capable of doing just what Sarasotakid says.
Things like this give credence to the idea that the bill was purposely worded so as to allow for just what you deny. All who work with the poor were afraid for good reason. The fact that the bill didn't pass and therefore is not currently being used in soup kitchens means nothing. We may truly be at a crisis point this month. We need to get federal legislation that is both reasonable and humane. TLB If you think we can force Mexico to repatriate 10 to 12 million people you live in a dream world. If you call that a "Christian" response, it is a Nightmare. Wayne

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Wed, 09 May 2007 18:05:01 -0000

Kevin Why do you think this is true? I have lived in the inner-city for twenty five years, worked with more immigrants than I can count. Never ran into what you are describing. But it seems the gist of your arguement would then be " I don't care about the civil rights of just any humans, only those born here, who speak english, and are more or less pale in skin tone." Aren't you the one who believes that immigration is not a racial issue? Do you also believe Justice is not a racial issue? I know many undocumented women who have endured the tragedy of rape or incest. They called the cops! I guarantee you if it meant their mother's or siblings would be deported they would not have. Rapists on the streets do not make me feel safe. Hard working people who love their families do not frighten me. Usually your comments are better thought out. Wolverine If I put you in hock to the IRS and fined you 2,500.00 for your lack of sufficient American heritage, you being first Generation and all, would you consider that amnesty? There is no amnesty! There is no amnesty! There is no amnesty!!!!! Just because you persecute families in stages, "ramping up enforcement" as you termed doesn't make it a good thing. These people have built a life here, they have children who were born here. Many of them came here at such a young age this is the only country they have ever known. Your "humanity" is intrinsically inhumane sir. There is no path way for them to apply for immigration status. Never has been. That is why they came here illegally, not because they disdained our laws. It is our immigration laws that are criminal in this case.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Wed, 09 May 2007 19:09:45 -0000

Wolverine Where did your parents come from? If it was from mexico they had to have an education and a skill that our laws stipulated we needed in order to get here. If they just wanted to come work for MCDonalds there would have been no i's for them to dot or t's for them to cross. Your statements go with the canard that these people somehow jumped ahead of the line and have hurt all those who came here legally. The need for their labor was here, the desire for them to work was here, the legal means to get here was not, and that remains the status quo. Having to deal with the IRS does not equate to amnesty. Paying a fine that may exceed ten percent of your annual earnings does not equate to amnesty. All of these things are in fact harsh penalties. In reality they are at best necessary evils in order to get some kind of immigration reform accomplished. It is because of unthinking mean spirited people that these penalties have been wrongly construed as such. My point is that if for any reason you incurred such a penalty you would never call it amnesty. Why do you insist on doing so with the undocumented. It seems the only thing that will make you happy is for all brown people to go, yet I am sure you do not think yourself a bigot. Your failure to see your real issue is very troubling. Kevin We had a seventeen year old honor roll highschool student picked up off the street and deported last month. They had committed no crime. They were brought here when they were an infant. Business owners have been deported, Home owners have been deported. Heads of families whose children are citizens have been deported. These are all first hand experiences, not hearsay. There is no way to justify any of these deportations except to defend bad laws. None of these people were criminals. All of them came here innocently except for our unfair laws. We are the criminals, they are the undocumented innocents. From the perspective of the innercity this is more like a long extended "Kristal Nacht" than an attempt to be just or safe.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Wed, 09 May 2007 19:50:20 -0000

Carl Yes it is true. Why wouldn't they since Kevins comments on trade and economic policies are also true. I still remember all the compplaints about how unfair NAFTA was to Americans. History has shown us who was really hurt, poor Mexican and hispanic farmers. they were forced to cease all farm subsidies while we were not. To make matters worse the price of tortillas has risen because overall Mexican corn production has fallen and our corn prices have risen do to ethanol consumption. All our Greening of America is causing this. We refuse to understand that when America sneezes the Western Hemishpere catches cold economically. Still we complain that somehow we are the ones being hurt. Now that we have to incur some very minor discomfort over undocumented workers because of NAFTA we are still crying. Meanwhile we hurt the poor worker who comes here in part to escape the problems we create. If it wasn't so painful to watch it would be absurd comedy. In large part we caused this. Blaming Mexico for being backward or economically stupid is just scapegoating the real issues and denying our complicity. We can solve most of this by just reforming immigration policies. Most Latin Americans still love their country of origen and only want to come here for their immediate needs.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Wed, 09 May 2007 21:02:25 -0000

"For illegal immigration, a proper amnesty would begin with the illegal immigrant returning to his or her country of origin, with the understanding that there will be no penalties for the time he or she spent illegally in the US. I would support such a policy." Again, as long as they leave, your not racist. And as long as the immigration laws reamin unchanged they won't get back to their homes and families either, but you do want them penalized. I don't find it amazing that you would support such a policy. I find it amazing that you call that amnesty. Would you like to also take over their homes and businesses? How about adopting their citizen children? Or would you want to enact laws that would reverse their legal status as well? I am sure glad your not a bigot. God help us if you were. "the main reason that employers make use of illegal immigrants is that they are more likely to get away with labor law violations, pay sub-minimum wages, avoid unemployment and workers compensation, and income tax withholding. It's not at all clear that Americans wouldn't work many of these jobs if labor laws were enforced." What is unclear about it? I am sure there are violations but look at the whole story. Local federal buildings here were built with undocumented workers. This was not done because they were cheaper, government jobs have wage stipulations. At first it was mandated that everyone had to be legal, but the Feds relented when they realized they couldn't man the job without them. (True story I know the contractors and was on the job sites often.) California Avacados went unpicked. Bell Pepper crops went unpicked. Peaches went unpicked,etal, despite the fact that they had bumper crops last year. Where were all those Americans looking for work? The demographic shift caused by the aging of the boomers means we have less people to do the work that our still growing economy calls for. We need them at least as much as they need us. But all the anti immigration people are just concerned about the rule of law right? I'm sorry but that's just BS.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Wed, 09 May 2007 23:43:55 -0000

"As for the kids, this isn't all that hard to figure out: you can leave them with citizen relatives, or take them with you until they are ready to return to the states. Lots of American citizens live overseas. Jeez, is that so hard?" Evidently you sure don't think so. where did your folks come from? Are you sure your not just an alien? Did you leave you home world because its inhabitants were more heartless than you? You need real help.
"Or would you want to enact laws that would reverse their legal status as well? No, you do. You want to make that which was illegal legal." So its the law that's important, not the unjust effect of the law. Now your just a character from Les Miserables. "Thanks for noticing that I'm not a bigot. We're making progress here." Well I am at least. I now know you might be an alien or somehow you lost your personality in an historical novel when you were young, which one of those is still a toss up, but I am sure your not a comedian.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Thu, 10 May 2007 03:47:44 -0000

If these great grand sires of ours had to jump through the legal hoops, or faced the severe restrictions on immigration that exist today they would either have come illegally or perhaps have died. All this i dotting and T crossing is really too much. Our laws changed. They did not change for the better. Back in the day in California we never looked twice at the Migrant farm workers who came over the border illegally. Todays economic realities have brought us mass migration, 500,000 in 2005. Yet that number is still only 1/6th of one percent of our entire population. It is, practically speaking, miniscule. Yet today everyone is so concerned about these "horrible law breakers." The only difference is they are not on the farm picking our veggies but in our cities, where we can see them. That is why I level the charge of racism. If they were content to pick our crops no one would care how many came.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Thu, 10 May 2007 05:19:47 -0000

Sarasotakid Racism or prejudice is hatred or derision and unwarranted fear of people. It is the prejudging or grouping of people into catagories and negative stereo typing. You are right, meeting someone and understanding them can change their views but they must change from prejudicial to fair and unbiased. The opposite of racism is called reconciliation. Nothing spoken by those against immigration reform can equate to this. Racism spreads lies in order to promote fear and subjugate people. Racism sticks. I don't see people calling for a wall on the Canadian border, or crying about the Irish who are here currently without legal status. It is not just a white desease. ironically only people of color seem to care much about those people of Asian descent who are here illegally. Anyone who can think of the separation of families as nothing more than a nuisance is not dealing with individuals but in masse has dehumanized people, using the lack of documents to mask the reality of their disdain for persons of a different culture. Quite honestly I don't think the proper docs would matter much as they would still think of them as "wetbacks" or "Cholos." Our hispanic brothers know this to be true. Your tale of the man in South Texas is far more the reality than most know. Unfortunately I think it is because they do not want to know. They would rather be afraid and act hatefully. Peace to you also

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Thu, 10 May 2007 09:41:55 -0000

Kevin I can see that you do not like being called negative names, although you were not the direct target of my statement. For you to accuse anyone of a God complex because they state something which you disagree with is just tit for tat, or as you put it "an impasse of your own devising."
Kevin you asked; "Who said that separating families was merely a nuisance? here are the quotes; "the "invitation" is expiring, and it's time for them to return home." Moderatelad "As for the kids, this isn't all that hard to figure out: you can leave them with citizen relatives, or take them with you until they are ready to return to the states. Lots of American citizens live overseas. Jeez, is that so hard?" Wolverine (Wolverine seems to think living overseas is somehow equal to living in a Mexico city slum with your American citizen babies. But heh, he did mention that we should be sure we were "humane" when we did this.) "Taking people in aggregate" If you mean all laws should apply fairly to all people, I would agree, with the caveate that a bad law is not made good just because we make sure everybody pays a penalty because of it. Our immigration laws are not broken, they are wrong. Defending a bad law is worse. Enforcing a bad law makes no sense whatsoever, if justice is important to you. Moderate lad- immigration laws are heavily weighted against uneducated and unskilled workers from Mexico. That is why they break our laws to get here. They have no other choice. There are no forms for them to fill out that would get them a visa unless sponsored by someone who is here already. To legally immigrate here from Mexico is almost impossible for people like these. The fact that you did a good thing twice in your life doesn't change your attitude of indifference today. Jesus did not commend people for travleing the world over to make a convert, (I am sure they also thought this a good deed). I do not apologize for telling you what I think.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Thu, 10 May 2007 23:13:54 -0000

Kevin More and more we are a high-tech society. Demographics prove we need to import low skilled labor. Mexico s border represents the easiest way for low skilled labor to enter the country yet USCIS regulations make it almost impossible for them to do so. Why? We used to used their labor for over one hundred years with no complaint whatsoever, why the change? When we saw this mass migration happening why did we do nothing about it? Since by our inaction, we showed we didn t care, why should a poor man think it so wrong to cross illegally? Why is the focus of so many only the punishment of those who came here, and not our failure to manage our border? What is wrong with saying, We screwed up! We should have managed this better. We are probably going to have to absorb some of these people in order to make it right. ? Since not one Mexican or Latin American has blown us away, why are we so afraid of them?
If homeland security is the issue, the Canadian border is even more porous and it is much safer to cross; Why only build one wall? Why does someone from a Northern border state like Sensenbrenner (sp?) not call for Canadian border security, instead of sponsoring HR4437?

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Fri, 11 May 2007 00:15:10 -0000

Wolverine We are talking about 12,000,000 people who would be potentially separated from their children. For how long? No one could possibly know. The fact that you still diminish this is amazing. It is a bad thing to say flippantly or any other way. It is a wrong idea. Equating missionary living quarters to the slums of Latin America is just another dense notion. there is no comparison. If the only way you can rationalize the evil inherent in your supposed answer is by calling them "flippant" or "snarky", you are certainly coldhearted. Why in the world would I ever have thought you are a bigot?

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Fri, 11 May 2007 20:30:56 -0000

Wolverine I do not know what to say to your surprise. My passion (anger) on this issue comes from years of working with the people we are talking about. Not just a few and not just every once in a while. The numbers of people who will be affected are quite large. It will happen far more often that you guess, but if it only happened 1000 times out of 12,000,000 it would be huge in its effect to those 1000. In just the last few months we have had a highschool honor roll student deported, a home owner,and another man who owns a business. That is only three people, not 1000. If you knew these people and how opposite they are to anything remotely like "illegal" or "alien" you would have the same reaction as I, or at least I would hope you would. Think about how you have minimized this situation. You cannot morally come up with answers like the one you have proposed and not be called for it.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Fri, 11 May 2007 21:32:50 -0000

And they both came over what border? Your fears are not a rationalization of your program of forced repatriation and seperation of families. Look we did not enforce the border. We played a sort of cat and mouse game, with catch and release. We were not serious about immigration and they knew it. So they played along.
Now we are serious and people are getting hurt. What is worse is that we still don't mean it. We still have American companies hiring and even importing low skilled labor illegally. We refuse to admit we are at fault or at least share in the blame. We only want to blame and punish the little guy. If we have to absorb 12,000,000 people our punishment will be small indeed. We need not feel like we got the bad end of that deal. As far as punishment of the undocumented goes, fines and back taxes are not small things and they are not amnesty. If you think that will encourage more to come, well if there are jobs, let them come legally. If there are no jobs, they won't come.

We now have a very bad situation and need to get a hold of it. National security is an issue. Secure the border and manage the need for low skilled labor. Provide legal means of entry and they won't come illegally. Penalizing people who never intended to do anything more than work, is not an answer. If someone is here with bad intentions that is a security issue we will be dealing with for a long time. Using the example you cite as an excuse for inhumane treatment of 12,000,000 people is insane. You would be better using that to justify our treatment of muslims prisoners in Iraq. It didn't work there and it doesn't work here.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Fri, 11 May 2007 21:35:36 -0000

Excuse me I meant to address that to Stalin, or was it Mao you preferred? I of course would like to be referred to as "Che".

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Sat, 12 May 2007 08:47:25 -0000

Thank you Danna

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Sun, 13 May 2007 01:44:19 -0000

Danna I was thanking you for both and for the rest of the information you provided.
Obviously we have our problems here, but as Americans we should realize that though they are important they are not excuses for us to act only in our self interest. I would wish we could admit our national responsibility and guilt in this matter. Instead we just look at those who have been hurt and blame immigrants for it. All the while our federal policies and inaction are the real culprits.

The fear that is used to misdirect our national anger is classic. "Make everybody afraid of the foriegner and they won't blame us." As long as we are paralyzed by this false fear of the immigrant the problem will be unaswered. It seems to me that as long as we fail to identify the fear for what it is, a form of prejudice which is based on lies and half truths, the paralysis will just continue. The only ones who benefit from this paralysis are the employer who has been able to cheat his labor pool, and extremist groups which are experiencing a rebirth in their enrollment, (look up facts on KKK rebirth nationwide).

Today the word Bigot, or racist is becoming the "N" word for white people. We don't live in mostly white enclaves because we are prejudiced. We make our decisions based on other things like schools, or the appearance of security. Meanwhile the public school system is resegregating (see The Harvard civil rights project, "Are we Losing the Dream") and of course the church is stil the most segregated club in America. I am sure much of what I have written has offended. In part it was my intention.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Sun, 13 May 2007 15:56:07 -0000

Kevin and Wolverine I asked many questions days ago that you ignored. If you had answered them you could have defended yourself against the charge of racially motivated thinking. (I am trying to be nicer). Growing up in California from that fifties I was always around migrant workers. (They weren't "illegals" in those days for some reason). No one, except Caesar Chavez, had much of a problem with them. The difference today is that they are not just in the orchards, farms and dairies, and the numbers have vastly increased. Now I know those are big differences but the fact that, in these numbers, and now out in the open so to speak, they are changing more than just demographics is key. Local cultures are being effected. In one town in South Carolina the population was roughly 50% African American and 50% white. It is now 33% Hispanic, 33%White and 33% African American. To deny that there would be a large racially motivated reaction to this is to deny our historical roots. To deny that you and I are not affected in our thinking by racism is to do the same. When you then propose or defend solutions that would attack ethnic families with what I can only call callous indifference you should not be surprized that some one charges you with racism. After all if you walks like one and you talks like one, you probably is one. So much for shades of grey

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Sun, 13 May 2007 17:22:04 -0000

I know Wolfie. You're just like Fox news, "Fair and Balanced". I hope you have a nice day too.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Mon, 14 May 2007 00:33:19 -0000

"If we grant amnesty in these instances, we MUST find way to curb illegal immigration in the future lest we face the same dilemma again. However, the same people proposing amnesty oppose strict enforcement."
I don't oppose strict enforcement. It was our non-enforcement that created this mess! That much is undeniable. Since we are the ones responsible for that lack of enforcement I do not see why those who have made their homes here are the only ones to be penalized and castigated. I am not against the levying of fines and paying back taxes either. I just think it reprehensible to fine a poor man and then pretend it is some kind of amnesty. That has always been a tactic the extremists have used to put the kibosh on any reform and to justify outright persecution of these poor workers. That is also undeniable.

Kevin you always say your not against immigration, just illegal immigration, but then you talk of "curbs". Why do you not advocate the management of our labor need and the legalization of those who can meet it? It always makes you sound like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

We issued 1 million visas per year for the last two years. Each year 1.5 million people came, the majority of which found employment even though the political environment was/is increasingly negative. This third undeniable fact would seem to prove that we need to increase legal immigration, not curb it.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Mon, 14 May 2007 09:23:44 -0000

Kevin Those who are here are one problem. Those who may want to come is another. You seem to want to link them, or that is my best guess anyway.
Allow a way for those here to become legal. We are not going to expel 12 million people and their legal children. Any thing along those lines will never make it through congress. If it does it won't make it past a veto. On top of that it just isn't right. Secure the borders and enact a guest worker program. Manage the need for labor and the supply. That is what a good businessman does. The rule of law will be honored. The future will be secured as best it can. "Are you saying that it is untenable to oppose continued illegal immigration while supporting legal immigration? That doesn't make sense." I think it doesn't make sense for you to say your for legal immigration if all you really want to do is curb it. The way you have stated your opinion leaves me with the strong sense that is actually your goal. The word "manage" allows for immigration to go up when the need for additional labor exists and for it to go down if it isn't needed. It means we have to do what we have failed at till now, securing the border. In fairness I think it must be recognized that both the Mexican and the Canadian borders would have to be addressed. As it is the quota system that USCIS now uses doesn't do anything like this. It sets limits based purely on other agendas and ignores, for the most part, labor needs. those areas of their programs that do address those needs are pretty fixed in total numbers and catagories. The fact that their quotas for the coming year are usually full well before that year is upon us speaks to the inadequacy.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Mon, 14 May 2007 19:15:02 -0000

I know what you said. I was trying to get you to see what you sound like. I do not want you to clarify it again. It is your emphasis that I was pointing to you that is confusing.
Why not instead talk of managing the border since we can see that at the moment we still need immigrants here. The problem is that we won't let them come. Curbing illegal immigration is a given and by the way, it is working. The Border Patrol estimates it is down by up to 30%, or at least arrests are. Meanwhile California's vegetable crops went largely unpicked.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Wed, 16 May 2007 23:51:28 -0000

Danna You said the following and I do not know if you will read this but... "Yes, but isn't the root of that fear anger. Should we not be angry with the employers that take advantage of undocumented workers for their lower wages as well as their vulnerability and ease of exploitation? Should we not be angry with those that have created trade policies that left labor and small farmers off the table?" I do not think the fear I was talking about is caused by anger. I think it is the other way around. To be angry at those you mentioned is proper and well earned. It is this misdirected anger at the immigrant which I was referring to and that I believe is caused by fear of the alien, and fear of change. If we were to soley direct our anger at those who have hired illegally and profited from this unfairly, that would be a good thing. What is being proposed as a way to address these employers in Arizona is merely part of the larger scheme to fight a war of attrition with the immigrant and that is unfair. Again, tighten the regulations on hiring and do a better job of securing the border, but you cannot do either of these without somehow legalizing those who are already here, and providing legal means of immigration for those who might come in the future.That is, unless you just want them to go home or stay a perpetual underclass. If we do the security and hiring things only we will in effect just a create a race of helots for all of us rich North Americans to abuse for our gain and comfort.

Re: Video: Jim Wallis on Jesus and Lou Dobbs

Wayne — Thu, 17 May 2007 19:27:08 -0000

Danna I think we are in complete agreement as to the cause of the problem. I even agree with your solution as far as it goes. My only difference is to the immediate or first move we take to solve the real problem. Today there are many who are hurt or have had to go through significant negative consequences of this mass migration. Along Arizona's border there are many who have abandoned their homes out of fear and whose property has been damaged. I am sure there has been some drop in wages and or job opportunities, though here in Arizona that has not been the case. I know someone could come up with an anecdote or two to refute that but over all our employment statistics are good.
That being said, I work with the poor here and in the neighborhood in which we focus most of our energy unemployment is very high, as much as 20%, (Arizonas unemployment rate is less than the national average). This is not due to immigration but larger social factors like drug abuse and its negative effects on families and children. I think sometimes the loss of job opportunities is again misdirected and blamed on immigration. This is another scapegoat tactic. It is not something that is said by those in this high unemployment area who are without jobs though as drug addicts don't have a political voice to say things like this. It is used by politicians who take a heavy handed approach to the issue. In other words I think much of the job loss situation here is again just a smoke screen for prejudice and oppression. (I cannot speak for where you live) I have spent a lot of time with our legislature and have heard them blame immigrants for crystal meth production in AZ as well as many stories of Korans being found strewn throughout our deserts, (supposedly left behind by wandering terrorists). It is an urban legend. Muslims would die before doing such a thing. As far as the meth charge goes it is also ludicrous. No one would oppose using the Border Guard to stop drug smuggling and if we had a reasonable immigration policy none of these immigrants would be wandering through the deserts. They use these stories to justify their draconian answers. When you point out the severe negatives these answers would entail they answer with something like "if your going to make omlettes you have to break a few eggs" It is very scary! People are talking of going underground, storing food and building "railroads". Many who work with the poor are preparing for possible jail time. This may seem like paranoia but it is generated by the extreme hatred and fear expressed by those in power. Meanwhile business, through the Chamber of Commerce, opposes all anti immigration legislation, yet fails to support any positive moves. They say it is because they fear incurring anger from their customers. We are stuck between a rock and a hard spot here, and I suspect it is much the same elsewhere. Business wants laborers. People want things to stay the same and are afraid of change. Those who have lost jobs are angry. Many of our leaders are just using the issues to divide and conquer. Most of the immigrants we work with are very much like US citizens in regards to work ethic, desire to get ahead, and being self sufficient, responsible people. It is one of the reasons people hire them. They show up for work and they work hard. In AZ at least, low wages do not really figure in as the labor need is large enough that they can actually demand wages that are fair by our standards.

Re: Ryan Rodrick Beiler: More on Immigration and Family Values

Wayne — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 22:43:43 -0000

I agree with Wolverine. Lets get the biggest part of this done now while there is a chance and then work on the rest.

Re: Ryan Rodrick Beiler: More on Immigration and Family Values

Wayne — Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:47:51 -0000

Sarasotakid and Don Believe me I hear you both and have deeply appreciated both of you and your input on this matter! Nothing would make me happier than to see a truly comprehensive bill pass. But legislation is also the art of compromise and I think this may be the best compromise that can be worked out. The opposition to the idea of "chain immigration is strong and will be opposed. On the good side there seems to be a willingness to see how this bill is going to work out. Those who are against any reforms, except ones that are about punishment and security at all costs, have bent some with this current bill. If those of us who want the real and just reform of our immigration laws won't bend, we may end up with nothing. This is going to be a problem we have to live within for some time and it will require the ongoing attention of the nation if it is to be worked out. My hope is that this bill allows us to manage our border, bring unlawful entries to a halt, and in doing so still much of the fear. If that happens, perhaps groups like the Minutemen, (I still like to call them mynoote men ) will fade into the woodwork. If all the fear mongers fade away, then maybe we can do even better. Eventually all Americans are going to have to deal with the fact that we need these people at least as much as they need work. The fact that this current bill contains inequities in its treatment of hardworking people is, I hope, tomorrow s work.

Re: Ryan Rodrick Beiler: More on Immigration and Family Values

Wayne — Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:55:55 -0000

Kevin You keep coming up with ideas that are heartless and sure look like they are forged in racism, then state over and over that this is not true. I guess we are supposed to think you mean well and that justisfies your thinking, or is it that the punishment of people who violate misdemeanors is paramount to the defense of the rule of law? God help us if we just fined them thousands of dollars and didn't really make them pay for their crimes! Let's see.. the forced deportation of 12,000,000 people is not heartless(?) Well, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but...I disagree.

Re: Ryan Rodrick Beiler: More on Immigration and Family Values

Wayne — Mon, 04 Jun 2007 23:49:49 -0000

Kevin " I remain surprised that this issue generates more empty charges of racism, Nazism, and all that crap" There is plenty for you to argue with Kevin. You do not have to hide behind counter claims that I/we are being mean to you when you are called on the carpet for advocating mean things. Your assertion of being treated unfairly is the only one that qualifies as "empty". You really have no right to being surprised when it's this simple; the deportation of 12,000,000 people is not, and cannot be, right. You're just walking like a duck again.

Re: Ryan Rodrick Beiler: More on Immigration and Family Values

Wayne — Thu, 07 Jun 2007 00:28:21 -0000

When I asked this same question to Legislators in my home state the response was "When making omelettes you have to break a few eggs". the indifference to problems like this in palpable. If it does not equal hatred it sure looks like its cousin. The bill currently before the senate does address this issue with a high degree of dignity and logic.

Re: Jim Wallis: Politics Isn’t Working

Wayne — Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:42:35 -0000

Lonewacko
I think you need to explain your thinking. I for one do not see your logic at all.

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:43:42 -0000

In the interest of "the rule of law" we have just separated American citizen children from their mother. She was not a radical Imam nor did she desire anything but the best for this country. Did the framers of the constitution actually need to includ a right to family also? May all the pro family folks see the hypocrisy of this move and the support of it by anyone who claims to be a conservative.
Moderate lad
your plan of slowly removing the undocumented is underway. I hope you can live with it. A "dangerous law breaker" has been removed so you can sleep a little better. If your answer is that you will, I truly pity you.
If this is an example of our being law abiding I for one hope the law is broken, beat down, and disguarded. Anyone who is this concerned about the law has forgotten its God intented purpose and the reason for laws to exist. Justice is the only rightful goal of the law.
I can think of no clearer an argument for the reform of our laws than this one, but unfortunately there are many more. This deportation is wrong, regardless of any "law" we have created.

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:28:31 -0000

BELIEVE IT OR NOT I AM NOT DOING THIS TO REPRESENT YELLING

I AM JUST AN OLD ILLITERATE SON OF A BISHOP.
there is that better?
Wolverine
I don't think Sojourners was in charge of Elvira, but perhaps I am wrong. She left the church and she got caught. How does that mean she or "they" weren't serious?
Rosa did what she did and it turned out to be a lot bigger than she probably ever thought. Were "they" looking for a photo op? Possibly how is that not serious. She has been deported. That surely sounds serious to me.
Taking a stand for comprehensive reform may not accomplish a thing. We could quite easily continue our mistreatment of the undocumented. I think that is in fact the most likely scenario for the next five years anyway. Why?
Is it because I am not serious or because everyone who is against is neither serious or sincere. All they really want is for it to stay this way? I certainly don't hear anyone from your side and farther out on the issue "seriously" asking for anything to be done to change the status quo. If you guys who are opposed to illegal immigration were serious about the security of the nation, I think you would be pressing Congress to do something about it instead of dressing up in camos and playing rambo on the border.
By the way just got back from a visit to sunny the California coast.
I think we had better construct a fence from San Diego to Canada.
I will actually volunteer to guard the area around Ocean Beach from June to say September. I am sure I can find some camo swim wear somewhere. Wolverine you can take Mission Beach. I think you will fit right in with the younger crowd there and Moderate lad... well I think you will have to take Venice and the kooks. Sorry Mod
Let's Keep being warm out there

YOUR FOREVER FAT FRIEND
oops!

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:27:18 -0000

there can be many reason for an undocumentd person to reenter and commit a felony which have nothing to do with being criminal by intention. Mod, you asked about the father. Well what about him? Is he a US citizen? Is he a good guy? When she is not here who do the children live with? You stated earlier that her kids can be taken to Mexico with ease but that is hardly the only scenario.

Children may have been a great part of Elvira's reason for doing what she did. People here seem to regard children as tools, used only to "anchor" them here. Anchor babies is just another demeaning and dehumanizing term like illegal. They are just babies and usually people have them because of love but also by mistake. Once they are born though there is this "thing" that happens, even to latina mothers. They fall in love with their children. They want the best for them.
How long was Elvira here before the first deportation? Years and years as I remember. When we refused to enforce the law for generations we create these problems and many more.
You guys who are all about the Rule of Law always seem to jump to the most negative of conclusions and then go straight to the most negative of answers. I certainly hope that if any of you come before a judge and jury, the panel of your peers does not make as many negative assumptions about you. That is not justice your thoughts about Elvira are not justice. They are though great examples of the unjust ways in which you approach this problem.
Someone asked me to "think some more" can you try to think and feel at the same time? Its not that hard really

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:59:40 -0000

Mod
I appreciate your trying to seek level ground. Yes, women go to prison who have children. Children are even born in prison.
Yes you sponsored two families and they did it right. I applaud both them and you.

How about a woman who came here ten years ago? We didn't care much back then. Sure we have laws but her family has been coming over the border for ages and have always found work here with no problems really. So she doesn't even think about all the legalities, this is what her people have done as far back as anyone can remember.She is fairly illiterate but not stupid, she just lacks a formal education. Her people used to come just to pick crops but times have changed in the USA and even better jobs are available. While here she meets a man and falls in love. She has a baby.
Attitudes in the USA are changing, people are getting angry, but she is used to being an "outsider" she is used to being called names. She has a better life than she could ever have hoped for in many ways back in Mexico. One thing that is not going well for her is her relationship with her lover. He is not doing so well. He is an American citizen and a drug user/alcoholic. She leaves him and raises her son alone.
She is picked up and deportation proceedings begin. Her ex-lovers parents say they will take care of the boy. They do so by giving him to their son once she is gone. This is not good at all. The boy is in danger. To make matters worse in the time she has live din the USA things back home have changed. NAFTA has made it impossible for her father and brothers to farm anymore. They have moved to a border town to find work. Drug cartels have pretty much taken over. She finds out about her son and recrosses the border.
Her son is by now about eight years old. The USA is all he knows. he has friends here. He goes to school here. He does not want to go to a strange place and becomes adamant. Her ex-lover and inlaws tell her that if she decides to leave they will fight her for the boy. Her citizen son has rights. She feels as if there is an anchor holding her here. Others tell her they will help her if she stays. She gets a job using a fake Social Security number. Ten years have gone by since she first arrived here. She gets caught in an ICE raid.

Now tell me how level the ground is? If you were in her shoes would you have done anything different? Possibly but if this is the person you think of as a felon, I don't understand you.
This is by the way not a hypothetical situation. It is also not the worst situation of this kind that I am aware of.

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:04:22 -0000

Once again Mod you make the assumption there are some procedures to follow.
The person described is, like Elvira, considered a felon. You think that is an appropriate term.
I do not.
That is one of the main differences between us.
I just cannot imagine any reason that is just, for you to go there.
Kevin You say you are pro legal immigration yet against comprehensive immigration reform. I think you stance is tantamount to being simply pro status quo. It is an unfortunate choice and lacks any real ability to change this problem in any positive way. The outcome of your stance will just be more of the same and the needless criminalization of natural and healthy human relationships and their pursuit of a better life through their own endeavors and hard work.
The immigrant will continue to be abused and you can feel right about it. After all you did nothing wrong, you just did nothing.

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:14:00 -0000

Dave,

Dave said: "Now, please tell me why you insist that simply because a question presently lacks a satisfying answer, that the only logical alternative is that "God did it.""

I didn't think that I was saying "God did it" is the only answer. I just don't think it is appropriate that those who do not have the answers can so freely insist that they know what the answers aren't. There could be a perfectly scientific reason that explains the creation of the universe. And God could be behind it. God could have designed evolution. I just find it frustrating that those who critique everyone else beleifs can't produce any of there own. Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 18:54:00 -0000

Dave (wm),

I did not ask you what you know, I know what you know; the same as the rest of us. I aksed you wha tyou BELEIVED to be true. BELEIVE was the opperative word. What do you beleive sir?

Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:32:00 -0000

anonymous,

I think Dave can speak for himself. And if most americans are walking robot zombies then I'm glad to be one of them.

Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 22:18:00 -0000

Anonymous1,

You obviously spent some time composing that comment but I have to admit that it has left me frustrated. Your being intentionally obtuse about the questions I asked. And when you couldn't feign a sense of mild bewilderment about a particular question you just responded with a cute little sarcastic joke (Well, you see, my mom and dad, had a honeymoon, and...) Those questions were not vague because you know the context in which I asked them.

"Wayne said, "I have also yet to find someone out there besides Christians who will state thier true beleifs and stand by them."

Obviously, you haven't met the billions of Muslims who believe Allah, is the True God."

You know that I meant that I have not found one on this website.

Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 22:55:00 -0000

Dave,

I have no proof to offer, and it frustrates me like nothing else. I want there to be real evidence. I want there to be real proof. I can not produce it though. But it really drives me crazy when people, including yourself Dave, will draw the line in the sand and say "Your beleifs are wrong. End of story" when they have nothing to offer themselves in way of an explaination or a therory or belief. I guess that it in a nut shell.

I tried to level the playing feild and find equal ground by saying neither side can prove or disprove the other. To find some common ground and build from there. I don't understand why others are so opposed to that.

For the record, I don't know what a fundy is. Or what your definition is.

Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 23:29:00 -0000

Dave,

I have heard you claim that there is no God. You made that claim. You did. Can you prove it?

Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 23:34:00 -0000

Dave,

I don’t think that proves lunacy but whatever. Bye

Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 23:37:00 -0000

Anonymous1,

I don't remember saying that you were going to hell. In fact I.........Forget it.

Peace

Wayne

Re: Mice more Compassionate than Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 00:31:00 -0000

To xrayman,

Thanks for the kind words; a welcome change to what I am used to. I would not say that my persistence has brought out the "best" in some of the other readers, but, we all interpret what we see differently.

I am sorry to hear about your friend. I have had two similar incidents where people cut me loose because I wasn't "saved" enough or whatever. It's too bad.

I don't have all the answers, in fact, I have VERY few. Luckily I have just as many answers as everyone else. Everyone thinks that what they believe is right; otherwise they wouldn’t believe it. Unfortunately none of us will know for sure until the very end. And maybe not even then.

Thanks again.

Wayne

Re: You need a Holy Ghost Enema! - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:20:00 -0000

Uh...OK?

I worked a Benny Hinn event a few years ago (event staff) in Orlando. To be honest - I preferred dealing with the drunk basketball fans at Waterhouse Arena to the christians at that event. They were rude, profane (I was told to F-off several times when telling folks that sitting on the steps was not allowed), couldn't seem to put anything into a trash can - the floor and ground outside was covered...
I could go on and on, but I'm sure you know the deal. It was the longest day EVER.

I wonder what the "lord's enema bag" is made of... What's the capacity of the bag? Is it enough to actually dilute and rinse satan from your butt? Is it available over the counter, or do we need a note from Benny?

Re: The Complete Idiot's Guide to Intelligent Design - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:37:00 -0000

The Cambrian Explosion?

Two words... Space Aliens.

With turkey basters and crock pots.

(sorry - I just had to toss in an idiotic comment to lighten things up.)

Re: The End Is Near! - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 28 Dec 2007 01:48:00 -0000

What cracks me up is the bald-faced hypocrisy that christians have against "non-biblical" prophecies - a.k.a. Nostrodamus. They poo-poo it as lies, but in reality - what makes biblical prophecy any better? They were both written a long time ago, they are both REALLY cryptic, both speaks of "end times" and "Armageddon", etc...

I know it's all bullshit, but I just find it funny how stupid faith can make folks...

Re: God knows absolutely everything - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:14:00 -0000

HA!!!!
The Second vid is great! I almost had water com e up thru my nose, I was laughing so much.

CHECKMATE!!!

(On a sobering note - it is sad that xtian mindsets are not far off from this video...)

Re: One Nation Under Huck - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:38:00 -0000

As an American anti-theist, I beg that EVERYONE (US citizens, of course) get registered and VOTE. I don't care who for, as long as it's not this x-tian bullshit.

I've never felt so much dread about an election. I doubt that the evil-angelists will get the White House, but then again, I didn't think that we'd be dumb enough to re-elect Dubya Bush.

I'm getting my passport ready, and mentally preparing to become an ex-pat if these assholes are elected. they won't stop until a full blown theocracy is in place.

There are more jobs in my industry in Canada anyway...

Re: The Godless Girl - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:21:00 -0000

Gee... Nobody asked me to swear on the monkey when I became an atheist...

I must not have gotten one of those pamphlets.

(this clip was rather hilarious, btw)

Re: West Memphis Christian Hypocrites - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 04:48:00 -0000

Hmmm... this just figures, doesn't it.

By the way... isn't the phrase "christian hypocrites" kind of redundant? It's like describing milk as a "milky liquid".

Here's to a speedy recovery to you.

And Andrew... You're kind of a dick. 'Nuff said.

Re: We don't exist? - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:38:00 -0000

Wow.
The sheer power of their argument has changed my life. Watching the bald guy flail his tongue like a coked-out Pentecostal at a cunninglingus festival really made me think "Hmmm... maybe Jesus IS real! Maybe I just haven't hung out with the dude, ya' know, like took him to Taco Bell for crustos and shit..."

Do these people realize that they our making OUR arguments for us? I really don't think that they are bright enough to see it!

What was the word that caleb used?

Oh yeah...FUCKTARDS. Good word, dude....

Re: We don't exist? - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 00:25:00 -0000

CS... I've had spiritual experiences. I've been moved at the symphony to tears, Looked through a powerful telescope and saw Saturn's rings with my own eyes, I've stood atop the Cascade Mountain Range and felt like I was one with the world, I felt undeniable love when I watched my daughters being born. NOT ONCE did I have to tie it to "GOD" or "Jesus" or "Allah" or even fucking ZEUS!!!

You can have a "spiritual experience" without it being a religious experience. Personally, I think praising a god for those things would cheapen the REAL miracle of nature... the infinitesimal stroke of random chance that we are even here in the first place in a universe so huge.

God lives in the realm of the flat earth mindset.

So... where's your COMMON SENSE?

Re: Words of wisdom - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 21 Mar 2008 00:16:00 -0000

Cool... I'm glad the video had some women's quotes as well.

Re: I am a Satanist? - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:23:00 -0000

Wow - I went through a very similar situation in my junior high years. I had a hard core Jehovah's witness as a stepmother, and my Ozzy albums didn't play very well for her.

This was a great letter. I'm glad to see kids speaking out against the negative stereotypes that folks put on this music. Hell, there's more cheatin' and drinkin' and fightin' in country music, and no one ever bitches about it...

Re: Creationists Pollute Young Minds at Museum on Nightline - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Sun, 23 Mar 2008 00:39:00 -0000

Archang31 wrote: "Homeschooling is such a fraud...it's just a backdoor way of brainwashing kids with fundie dogma."

First of all - go fuck yourself. I've home-schooled both of my daughters, and if you want to call me a fundie, you're gravely mistaken. Lumping people into neat little groups is the job of religion. As a matter of fact, NONE of the homeschool groups that my wife and I have been involved with were religious or "fundie" in any way shape or form. I homeschooled because the state of the public schools where I live sucks balls. Kids can't spell, they have no real science, they are being taught to "pass the aptitude tests".

I'm sorry if you had to deal with fudie kids, but try to keep your mind open at least a crack to realize that not all home schoolers are xtian morons.

BTW - I'm glad Nightline exposed this bullshit. It was probably an easy gig for the editors to expose these guys as the dipshits that they are.

Re: Ben Stein: Front Man for Creationism's Manufactroversy - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:04:00 -0000

Lance wrote: " Lets hope these manifestations we are seeing now are nothing more than the dying breaths of creationism. It is our kids or grandkids that will finally put the nails in the coffin."

Well said, sir. It's really the only hope for mankind in my opinion...

Re: Ben Stein: Front Man for Creationism's Manufactroversy - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:05:00 -0000

'scuse me... HUMANkind.

Re: Why is evolution so unpopular? - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Wed, 07 May 2008 03:33:00 -0000

To Mr "Oh Really" (or is it O'Reilly - doesn't matter I guss, still just a brain washed goose-stepper)...

What most of you jewsus followers fail to realize when this whole debate comes up is that most of your kind seems to be using the word THEORY in the wrong context. You try to cheapen or dismiss the work of biologists, geologists, botanists, and every other natural scientist by shrugging it off as "just a theory", as if you're wondering which of the football team knocked up the prom queen.

There are literally THOUSANDS of TESTED and RE-TESTED facts that support evolution. Volumes that fill scientific libraries are full of the data.

Creationism gives us one source. An ancient book (actually a collection of books) that was written by people who were dumber than a modern elementary school student, compiled by powerful rulers who wanted to keep their power over the ignorant masses, an twisted and reinterpreted to fit the paradigm of the day.

Science strives to move forward, eliminate what is wrong with itself, and become clearer.

Religious dogma wants to stay put - in an air of "mystery", admit it's "divine perfection"...

So, I guess the sun still revolves around the flat earth in your book? It's just a theory....

Re: Why is evolution so unpopular? - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Thu, 08 May 2008 14:16:00 -0000

sconnor - If you don't mind, I'm going to steal that. Great stuff for intellectual ammo!

Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Mon, 19 May 2008 01:15:00 -0000

Hey "truth" guy...

Wouldn't you - as a DOCTOR - be going against GAWD'S will by trying to cure the sick of the problems that GAWD "willed" into existence? I'm sure he spent a bunch of holy hours "intelligently designing" the various viruses and cancers that plague humanity. Who are you to try to undo what the holiest of holies whipped up in his workshop? I really hope you aren't practicing in Seattle. I'd hate to think that one of my friends are a patient of a nutter...

Re: A tribute to George Carlin - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:22:00 -0000

I really don't know what to say... He really was a crucial part of "opening my eyes" to the BS in the world. There was more truth is one of his comedic routines than in a thousand sermons...

Missed is almost an understatement...

Re: The True Christian - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Wayne — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:55:00 -0000

There's a song by King Crimson called "Facts of Life" on "The Power to Believe" album (which I highly recommend. This lyric is for you, Danny-boy...

"nobody knows what happens when you die
nobody knows what happens when you die
believe what you want
it doesn't mean you're right
and that is a fact of life..."

A fairly simple point, and quite impossible to argue (if you try to, please read lines 3 and 4 again).

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:59:29 -0000

And as long as our immigration laws are not changed, we just get more of the same. so let's not just talk. Let's get those guys we elected to fix things like this to do their job. Let's demand comprehensive immigration reform, now. Tell your Senators and Representatives to stop playing games, stop arguing and trying to make political hay and do something. Write to Jeff Sessions and demand he do something and stop standing in the way. Demand he be part of the solution instead of acting like a politcal sniper. Get Cronym and the rest to actually go to work devising a plan with their counter parts in D.C. that we can live with, that works. tell them the nation demands it. Or you can just go to sleep, or play poker with your minute men action cards from Hoyle and act like your being patriotic.

I am still amazed though that your seem to be saying that if your son were in danger and you had to cross the border illegally in order to do something to win him back, you would not do so, because of your respect for the rule of law.
Do I have that right Mod? You would not commit a felony to save your son? Even one in which no one got hurt but you, if you were caught?
And that after being caught you would pronounce yourself guilty and agree with the courts that you are indeed a felonious lad?

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:20:27 -0000

I am not talking about Elvira Mod. The woman I described is not the woman in this blog. Just put yourself in the shoes of this woman. I would do as she did. If I went to jail for doing so it wouldn't matter. I think you would do the same. (you see i do not think you all that bad.)
The point is not all felons are equal. Not all law breakers are criminals. When it comes to family, blood should be thicker than patriotism.
I do not know all the details of Elvira's situation. I do know that the people I have known over the years have compelling reasons for their acts. It is cheap logic to stand on high and cast names on them, like the throwing of stones and should only be done by those who are guiltless. We Americans are far from guiltless Mod. Compassionate responses that admit our own culpability in the immigration issue are the proper course.
To whom much is given, after all.

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:28:09 -0000

Kevin
I hear your logic on this not being a racial issue for you.
I do think that though you may not have racial motivations, racism is still very much at the foundation of this problem.
It seems more than a little naive to think it isn't. Any person who grew up in either Texas or California as I did in the fifties, lived with and knows of the racial discrimination towards Mexican nationals and Hispanic Americans that was inherent in the white societies of those two states. Arizona's history, my current home, is full of the same. Why would things have changed? Why would racism not be part of this situation?
Why would you take a stance that allows for these racist tendencies to manipulate and make worse the immigration issue? When you call for deportations do you not know that white extremists are your biggest supporters? Do you not know that there is currently a resurgence of organizations like the KKK because of immigration? These organizations are using your support for "the rule of law" for their own agenda. For you to think otherwise is just naive.

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:02:49 -0000

Mod
We could also remember the reason for the story. It was to demonstrate that the Pharisee assumption that Samaritans were bad people, cursed by God and doomed to fuel the fires of hell because of their racial makeup, (being half-breeds, heretics, and past enemies of Judah etal) and who shared a border with them which they deeply resented, were not the bad people. The righteous Jews who obeyed the rule of law and used it as an excuse to not help their neighbor, were the bad people.

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:20:36 -0000

Jerry
I have never said illegal immigration was okay. I have said our laws are part of the cause of it. I have said and hold to the statement that racists are using this issue to reinvigorate their ranks. I have said the answer will not lie in enforcement only, or even first, approaches, but that enforcement and management of our border are crucial.
It is human nature to seek the welfare of ones self and family. We have jobs that need to be filled. AZ estimates up to eighteen percent of our state work force may be undocumented. We still have plenty of job openings. California's crops went largely unpicked.
I have stated and will continue to state that the mistreatment of undocumented persons is a civil rights issue which those who are opposed confuse as a legal one. No other misdeameanor carries the heat behind it that you seem to give this.
WHY? You leave yourself open to the accusation of racism by your unwarranted anger against hardworking people. I am always amazed that you guys don't see that. Stop blaming the messenger and open your eyes Jerry.

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:38:31 -0000

Jerry writes for the second time i believe

"i do not read, see or hear of any starvation going on in mexico. my friends in nogales, son. do not talk of starvation in mexico."

Wolverine had never heard anything about the KKK using immigration to revive its membership either. I find it a wonder that you seem to not be able to type Mexico and starvation into a search engine.
I know you can type Jerry and I think you can read also. That leaves willful ignorance on your part I guess.
Mexico is a third world country Jerry and yes there is starvation in Mexico. Did you think people would brave our desert just to get a tan? sheesh!

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:12:04 -0000

Squeaky
Don't play tis game with jerry. You gave him real world situation. Your scenario is not really hypothetical if you think about it, It is the choice many are actually faced with. He knows this and if he were to answer you truthfully it would prove your point.

Wolverine
SPLC is the watchdog on the KKK. Knowing what the Klan is up to is sort of "their thing". They are very well respected and the FBI uses them as a link for their info on this subject. CNN used SPLC TO "confirm" their story. ADL confirms their story. NPR confirms their story. I think the story is confirmed, but lets dig for more.

In 1977 Grace Lichtenstein of The New York Times wrote a report on The Pioneer Fund, a private trust fund based in New York which has for more than 20 years supported highly controversial research by scientists who believe that blacks are genetically less intelligent than whites.

"The Pioneer Fund, a tax-exempt foundation incorporated in 1937 for the express purpose of research into "racial betterment," was worth more than $2 million, according to its 1975 Internal Revenue Service return. Yet several officers of the leading geneticists professional organization say they never heard of it. A month-long study of the Pioneer Fund's activities by The New York Times shows it has given at least $179,000 over the last 10 years to Dr. William B. Shockley, a leading proponent of the theory that whites are inherently more intelligent than blacks."

The SPLC reports that the Pioneer fund is a principle financial backer of many of the "Hate groups" it keeps tabs on.

Oh and the pioneer fund was one of the principle backers for California's anti immigration prop 187.
These are the guys you are aligned with by your arguments Wolverine.

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:55:58 -0000

For more on this subject
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=93

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:36:24 -0000

Kevin
Am I supposed to take your remarks to mean you admit to siding with known racists and are knowingly following a racist agenda? That you think you can justify doing so because I support immigrants, one of which did an evil act many American citizens have also done, and which has nothing to do with their immigration status?

Please elaborate.

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:14:34 -0000

Kevin
You and I agree on the need for strong enforcement on the borders.
What you and I do not agree on is how to deal with those immigrants who are here without documents.
It is the stance on these issues that brings you into alignment with these people.

It is not guilt by association. If your words are their words, what's the difference? They also claim to be patriotic and guys like J Tanton and T Tancredo or Richard Lamm vehemently deny that they are racist xenophobes. Tanton says he can't help what the Pioneer fund stands for, and uses your very argument to explain why his org. is funded by pioneer. The truth is he has always known the racist goals of Pioneer. His close friendship with R Lamm is evidence of the fact that he actually agrees with them as Lamm was on the board of Pioneer when they funded Tanton's orgs. Ergo Tanton is a liar! He is hiding his racist views and agenda. All of these guys seem to be following David Dukes advice when he told the Klan to get out of burning crosses in the fields and into Hotel conference rooms.
These organizations have funded the anti immigration movement. They have been more than just side line participants. They spread fear. They spread lies and misuse truth. In large part this has been a movement they created. That is not my opinion. They admit to doing it.

I am asking you to seriously consider your stand in light of who agrees with you. To see the danger of your stand on attrition and deportation. It does no good to stand with these types, unless you agree with their ultimate goals.

Re: Sanctuary Movement Activist Arrested and Deported
/by Patty Kupfer/

Wayne — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:27:45 -0000

If a racist wanted to strengthen unions I would seriously look at what was underneath their support. If I found that there was a potential of increasing their political position by strengthening unions I would find a way to get most of what I wanted and compromise on the rest. In other words I would take weaker unions before I would aide and abet the likes of these guys.

Its a real world and men like these unfortunately require compromise. If they only wanted headlines and supported my goals verbally that would be one thing. I could probably just denounce them. These guys are the money and the muscle. They are the meat of the anti immigration movement. That is an entirely different thing.

Re: Stan Guthrie’s Red Letter Blues (by Tony Campolo)

Wayne — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 14:42:56 -0000

Jesus told us to teach all the people, (nations)to do the "ALL" the things He commanded. He also often took exception with how some of those things He commanded in the Old Testament had been interpreted. Jesus was often at odds with the OT at least as it had been interpreted and applied. Wouldn't that fact alone be enough reason to stress or emphasize those pesky red letters?

Being raised in the church I never heard a sermon on Matthew 25. Why is that? Being raised a dispensationalist, (I think from the same denomination as Guthrie), I never heard anyone teach the Sermon on the Mount. If RLC's can be accused of over emphasis of parts of scripture surely the de-emphasis, and/or out right ignorance of the red letters, should be admitted to.

Re: Stan Guthrie’s Red Letter Blues (by Tony Campolo)

Wayne — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 18:58:55 -0000

Another nonymous
I guess I could just say "ditto".
Italian 88
I was trying to point out that many of those who are opposed to Red "letterers" are in fact at least tacitly guilty of what they accuse them of doing. They just do it in the opposite direction. The church I grew up in did not preach on those areas of scripture because they were thought to be irrelevant. In many ways they were not a bad bunch of believers, (would that be BBB's?) they did though have some tendencies toward seeing our culture as biblical and the only right way, Though they would have said Jesus was the way the truth and the life they found a doctrine easier to follow and ironically quite easy to ignore His words. If you are going to follow Jesus it only makes sense to deeply delve into what He said and then do accordingly.
All definitely means all and Jesus is "'ALL' the fullness of God", (just to show you that I can quote from the non red verses too). He is/was the greatest expression of God's being anyone has ever seen or will ever see. Therefore to put emphasis on His words, red, yellow or green, would certainly be appropriate and absolutely defensible. It is definitely not bad exegesis.

Re: Stan Guthrie’s Red Letter Blues (by Tony Campolo)

Wayne — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 19:41:00 -0000

Kevin
What does "inspired" to you or just plain old everybody?

Mick regardless of what psuedo screwtape says, this has been a pretty fair discussion. That last shot was not worthy of you. Care to try again?

Re: Stan Guthrie’s Red Letter Blues (by Tony Campolo)

Wayne — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 23:01:07 -0000

Susanna
Calling yourself an RLC doesn't mean you do not read Nahum. In fact the minor profits are considered a watershed of truth by all the RLC's I know as they deal so much with the issues of justice and social concerns.
I do not call myself an RLC but if I did I would mean that I am not ignoring the statments of Jesus. That I am taking them seriously, emphasizing them, even reading scripture through them. I spend much of my time reading the Old Testament. I also find it very challenging and encouraging.
I have only met Mr Campolo once but I am sure he also spends much of his time in the Word of God with our Old Testament brother's and sister's words and stories.

At some point in my Christian life I came to see that I was really not much different than any modern Jewish Orthodox male, excepting my belief in Jesus as Messiah. The problem was my belief led me to just being concerned with my own personal holiness and not caring much for others. If I couldn't preach to them and have them change fairly quickly and then move on to become "mature" I did not have much time for them.
The irony is all my concern for holiness wasn't actually making me any holier, just more frustrated. As I dealt with Jesus words and His life style of living in and among those who weren't so holy, weren't wanted, weren't respected, weren't included, I began to change. I began to be able to understand someone like Mother Theresa saying that she loved the dying and the poor because Jesus was in them. She met Jesus in their eyes, in their painful broken bodies and even in their neglected deaths. I realized that I as I loved practically I found much of my struggles seemed to pale if not go away. I didn't need to use the good works as a carrot or a lure to preach the Gospel. Why would I ever not preach the Gospel? But I could do a good thing just for the goodness of it. I did not need to abandon holiness and obedience in frustration I needed to expand it into practical physical loving acts and ideas. As I said I do not call myself an RLC but if I did that is what I would mean by it.

Re: Stan Guthrie’s Red Letter Blues (by Tony Campolo)

Wayne — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:46:28 -0000

"I think you do, but you don't find it problematic or controversial. When we prioritize Christ, we do so because his words have a special authority that the other words of the Bible do not have. The only reason to assign special authority to the words of Christ is because you believe the rest is, in some way, untrue... Or, at minimum, less true. It becomes fiction." Kevin s.

This is hard for me to get my head around Kevin. If we can read the Old Testament through the New or even read the New through the Old, how is reading the whole of scripture through the words of Jesus any different?

I have to say that for a believer to have a problem with giving Jesus the final say in a matter is more than a little strange to me. Wouldn't Moses say He followed Jesus? Wouldn't Paul say the same? If there is a problem between Moses and Jesus say, over eating unclean food, who would you agree with? Peter seemed to think Jesus had the last word on that subject and James, along with the counsel at Jerusalem said Peter was right.
The early church had a lot of problems figuring out how to get Moses and Jesus to jibe. They went with Jesus every time that I can think of.
The disciples had a very hard time with some of the things Jesus taught in regards to Moses. The best example is Jesus saying it is not what goes into the mouth but what comes from the heart that defiles us. The disciples obviously were incredulous, Jesus seemed to be going against the Law of Moses. Eventually Christians threw the whole dietary thing out the window.Oops, sorry "Mos".

I don't know Kevin, it seems to me there is a fair amount of evidence to say that even Paul was an RLC. If not there is certainly high enough ground for being one that is not as easily disputed as you seem to think.

As the author and finisher of our faith, whenever Jesus speaks on a subject I think He wins. I do not think that makes the rest of scripture any less inspired or authoritative. If that means I am an RLC then I would gladly take the moniker. Anything less would be walking on water in the opposite sense.

Re: Stan Guthrie’s Red Letter Blues (by Tony Campolo)

Wayne — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:21:57 -0000

Mick
I definitely agree Jesus affirms the scripture. That said I don't think Jesus necessarily affirms our current ideas of scripture, not many of the ones I was taught as a child anyway.

You and I probably agree on most of scripture. We can pose hypothetical situations but the one I wrote on was real. Moses and the Law said don't eat certain foods. If you do eat them you will be unclean. Jesus said this was not true. He said it is not what goes into your mouth that makes you unclean but what comes out of your mouth. The disciples didn't get it.
The proof that they didn't get it is in Acts when Peter has to have the vision of the sheets repeated three times. This vision is very problematic because it reverses the law of Moses and all of its dietary restrictions. The voice in the vision is Jesus'.

This vision is the beginning of what opened the minds of Jewish believers to the idea of You and I being allowed to hear and receive the Gospel and live by Grace. Paul took this idea and based much of his theology and almost all of his ministry on it.
The point is Mick, it is a very real example of the first century church trumping the Old Testament with the teaching of Jesus. This does not negate the Old Testament or any of the New Testament, but it shows that it is certainly defensible to interpret the rest of scripture through the words of Jesus and/or to give Jesus' words emphasis or priority over other scriptures.

Re: Stan Guthrie’s Red Letter Blues (by Tony Campolo)

Wayne — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:34:57 -0000

Mick
Thank you.

Re: Who Has Betrayed Us? (by Brian McLaren)

Wayne — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 20:15:40 -0000

I think JP has the best advice for us. Our position in the world today is that of unparalleled safety and prosperity. Yet all it seems to bring us is a mind set of protecting what we've been blessed with and a sense of rightful retribution when a person from the third world strikes out at us. Justice is fine and Governments need to be able to wield the sword but we need to look at it from all sides. It is not just justice for us, but justice for all. Even those who stand against us. Fear proof our lives. Obedience will always demand a certain amount of courage. If we live in fear we really cannot be obedient to the Gospel.
To make matters worse if I read the scriptures correctly because we have been given so much as a nation, more should be expected of us. I hope we have the courage as a nation to bear our shame.

Re: Stan Guthrie’s Red Letter Blues (by Tony Campolo)

Wayne — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:43:23 -0000

Kevin,s and w, Don, Mick, Payshun, Rick, Moderatelad, Another anon and all the rest. Hope you all come back to this because I just have to tell you something that I am telling everybody.
We just got word Monday that my daughter and son in law are expecting their first baby in late May! I am going to be a Grand Father! My daughter is our eldest and the best young woman in the world. (In my always humble opinion). Can't tell you all how happy I am right now.
I know this is completely selfish but I was just thinking about it and had to crow!

Re: Stan Guthrie’s Red Letter Blues (by Tony Campolo)

Wayne — Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:51:24 -0000

Kevin
I think the context of this discussion is getting a little lost.
There are many denominations that do not preach the words of Jesus and teahc that in many cases at least, they do not apply to us today. In part this came out of the fundamentalist movement where the evangelical Church's rich history of social involvement got lost and was abandoned for the most part.

Christians like me who were taught these things, have been rediscovering the Gospels since the latter half of the twentieth century. We have gone back to the Gospels and abandoned much of the teachings we received when we were younger. The Gospels are the cornerstone for this "New Evangelicalism" but I know that because of my attention to them I now have a richer understanding of the OT than I ever had.
I do not know of any who do what you say Tony C does, but, if I ever ran into something paradoxical and which after much study I could not reconcile, yes I would opt for Jesus' statement on the subject. Jesus is the last and fullest revelation of who God is. I can see how it would be wrong to give him the only word, but fail to see how it is wrong to give Him the last word.
The statement about reading the OT through the NT etc. is just a reference to things others have stated here. Since you did not take exception to those statements I assumed you agreed with them. My bad.
Paul, an ardent believer in Mosaic Law, is at the center of the book of Acts and its record of the early church struggling with the doctrinal/social changes that the Gospel required of the first to believe. If he and Peter had not opted for the words of Jesus, we would probably not be here today discussing theology. It was the words of Jesus and how they literally changed the Law that opened the Gospel to us Gentiles. I know Jesus said that not one bit of the Law would pass away, but the fact is Peter's vision of the sheets pretty much did away with the dietary sections of the Law and the racist implications that Jews had given the Law in total.
Go back and read the reaction of the Jewish Christians to Peter's staying in a Roman's home in Acts 11:1-3.
Paul's statement that there is no more Jew nor Greek etc was an earth shattering application of Jesus words to the early church. This change was bolstered by the OT with James' quote of the prophets in Acts 15, where he used verses which the Jews, like my old fundamentalist teachers, also seemed to have overlooked or misread.

The RLC movement is actually an attempt to get back to using the whole of scripture, it is not a negating of all else except what Jesus said.

Thanks for rejoicing with me about becoming a Grand Father. I have not been this emotional since my own children were born. For health reasons dating back to 1984 I did not expect to ever live to see this day. I am overwhelmed with this blessing.

Re: ‘Devils and Dust’: How We Learned to Torture (by Brian McLaren)

Wayne — Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:28:05 -0000

Forget the picture. I think enough has been told that we using torture in interrogations. We are not studying it so as to prepare our soldiers to withstand it.
I think the promise of our nation could be simply stated as "Liberty and Justice for All." If we deny justice to some in the interest of preserving the nation we do more harm than good. Even if someone could prove that it worked out all right in the end I still don't think we could say it was okay do torture a prisoner. The fact that we might wish it had been used to save lives and foil an attack wouldn't be a proof that it was right to do so.
I understand the logic of holding these detainees as other than POW's, but I think we would serve our cause better if we did not. If we are to stand for Liberty and Justice for All, we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than this. Our fear is not justification for these actions. Their hatred of us is not justification. Their ignorance of Geneva is not justification. The good of the most is not justification. The whole idea of using preemptive force may help some of us sleep better but that doesn't mean it should.
I have on many occasions heard the cries of people who were suffering tortuous pain. It was caused by disease not by some villain. As you might imagine it is hard to sleep through. That we cannot hear it shouldn't change our ability to sleep through it.

Re: Campolo’s Letter on CT with Guthrie’s Column (by Ryan Rodrick Beiler)

Wayne — Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:56:52 -0000

Your right he did not address the "theological weakness" of the position. Instead he basically accused RLC's of doing what the Moral Majority, Focus on the family and I have done in the past. To accuse RLC's of being lackeys for Democratic candidates and not to admit to what conservatives were, and possibly will continue to be for the Republican party, lacks honesty. I do not think his article will impress anyone who does not already agree with him. It will anger those who do not. Wish CT and Mr Guthrie had done a better job. I would think a discussion might be a better approach instead of such a thin argument.
His saying "Setting off Jesus' sayings this way seems to imply that they are more holy than what is printed in ordinary black ink." is kind of a sideways slam that fails to actually accuse anyone, yet leaves the impression that RLC'S are lacking when it comes to orthodoxy. It just isn't true.
I hope we are not seeing the beginning of a Fuller seminary/ Dallas seminary dispute.

Re: Campolo’s Letter on CT with Guthrie’s Column (by Ryan Rodrick Beiler)

Wayne — Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:05:07 -0000

I am sorry that last post was mine, not Kevin

Re: Campolo’s Letter on CT with Guthrie’s Column (by Ryan Rodrick Beiler)

Wayne — Fri, 12 Oct 2007 02:22:00 -0000

Kevin
Then explain the Mark 7: 19 passage, "Thus He declared all foods clean." This is a definite change to the Mosaic Law which is brought about by Jesus. Even though Peter was there when Jesus explained this he didn't didn't get it until the vision in Acts and his visit to Cornelius' house. The reason he didn't get it was probably because it was too hard. To a Jewish man of his day, Jesus' words were unbelievable.
Pauline teaching on food and Christian freedom is very opposite to the Law in every regard. Paul seems to treat the dietary law as a Jewish "custom" which we only need adhere to when not doing so would trip up a weaker brother. (A weaker brother being one who still thinks we have to obey the Law.)
As modern Christians we overlook these things as we never have had to deal with the actual Law. We just think of it in a sort of very minimal way and identify it only with the Ten Commandments. The Law is the Law and it is definitely scripture and Jesus changed it. Scripture says he changed it. I really am sorry if that is complicated but if that doesn't give Him preeminence and His words greater weight, well, all I can say is I do not see any way around it.
In the least it would certainly suggest that a person who reads the whole of scripture through the words of Jesus is on safe ground and that there is no need to get "queasy" like Guthrie says he gets whenever he sees a little red ink.
I have read a little of what "serious theologians" say, I am fairly certain Tony C has read many also. Can you give me something else? Explain the Mark, Acts and Corinthians passages for instance. Are all Christians just forgiven for disobeying the law of Moses or should we all become Adventists? It seems more in line with all of scripture to admit Jesus changed the Law. He didn't negate it, He changed it. He has the right to do so.
You also said that you are "... willing to say that he(Jesus) authored all of scripture." I asked you to give me your definition of inspired. Is that it?

Re: Campolo’s Letter on CT with Guthrie’s Column (by Ryan Rodrick Beiler)

Wayne — Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:02:42 -0000

I am impressed with the results of the CT survey. Wonder what their readers thought of Guthrie's article?

Re: Progressive and Evangelical Common Ground (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:34:30 -0000

"I believe this debate needs to include the issue of immigration and the treatment of illegal immigrants."

Why Lynn? There is no need. In a few short years we will have forced them back to their home countries where they belong and where we can forget they ever existed. Our police are rounding them up as we speak. Do not bother us or ask us to be concerned. America needs to feel safe.
We just do not need to talk of this subject anymore, it is too unsettling. Andy of Mayberry is still on TV, I think Opie is such a cute little boy, and Barney, what a hoot. They all remind us of what America should be, don't you think?
As far as our broken immigration system, I assure you we will change the immigration laws, once our borders are fully armed and manned so as to only allow in a few fruit and veggie pickers.
It's all good Lynn, no worries. Please don't bring the subject up again. We are all too tired and quite frankly, bored. I gotta go mow my lawn anyway.

Re: Progressive and Evangelical Common Ground (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:39:32 -0000

"There is no scriptural basis for the idea that "religious diversity is vital for a healthy society." Kevin

Yes and we need to change the constitutional freedom of religion too. That also lacks a scriptural basis, in fact scripture would support getting rid of it. I simply do not know what our founding fathers were thinking, right Kevin.

Re: Progressive and Evangelical Common Ground (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:45:01 -0000

He did say, 'OK - your off the hock this time Babe, just keep it on the down-low'.Moderatelad

Did you mean to omit "Neither do I condemn you"?

Re: Campolo’s Letter on CT with Guthrie’s Column (by Ryan Rodrick Beiler)

Wayne — Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:47:10 -0000

Welcome to theology. All that and you still won't answer why the apostles seemed to think the words of Jesus override the words of Moses.

Re: Campolo’s Letter on CT with Guthrie’s Column (by Ryan Rodrick Beiler)

Wayne — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:56:04 -0000

"It's just that you idolize differnt scriptures." Kevin

It isn't that easy Kevin. To say that I interpret scripture through the red letters is not the same as saying I believe in the Black letters less or the Red letters more. Both you and Guthrie constantly go there. It appears you are trying to set up a "straw man".
To give Jesus the last word on a difficult passage is just a method of interpretation and as such says nothing about the veracity of the scriptures, only the truth of the interpretation.

If it is the words that are important we had all better start learning the languages of scripture as the Holy Spirit does not speak German or English. Further the whole of the Reformation is out the door and Martin Luther, Wycliff etc should have all been burned at the stake, but of course the Catholics wouldn't have been right to do so as they were using a Latin version.

What good would an inerrant "first edition" provide us that an errant version couldn't, given that both would be translated and interpreted by very error prone individuals? Even Christians who lived at a time when they could read the originals seemed to have a lot of arguments over what they meant and how they were to be applied.

Why did the Author of the scripture reverse it? What does the fact that he did so say about using his words to view the whole?

Nothing that you have argued has in the least shot down the RLC"s stance on this, nor have you given a logical defense of Guthrie's article.

As an interpretational method, using the words of Christ to view the rest of scripture is a perfectly defensible, rational and scriptural methodology. Your's may be also and I probably agree theologically more with you than I do Trent. Trent I will say that if something were presented to me that would shake my faith, like the bones of Jesus,(not that they would actually be sufficient), I would probably still believe in the words or sayings Jesus as I know of nothing else to exceed them. They are the only teachings I find worth believing in. Where else would we go? He has the words of Life. Kevin, the man who originally made that statement already had the words of Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. yet he seems to have agreed with Tony C.

Re: Campolo’s Letter on CT with Guthrie’s Column (by Ryan Rodrick Beiler)

Wayne — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 20:54:17 -0000

Kevin w
I would like to know where you go that Tony C quote. I must confess I never thought it out to that point. Stress what Jesus stressed and deemphasize what Jesus did not.
One problem is that according to John's Gospel Jesus did and said so much it would fill the earth with books to record it all. (I did not look that up so it might not be exact, only the way I remember it). Then I guess you could say the HS only wanted recorded what He wanted us to focus on. But whether it is a good rule to follow or not I think it is interesting. It would change my view of the beliefs of RLC's though, and do so in a troubling way. Paul obviously didn't follow suit as he did teach on Homosexuality and took a rather dim view. It would also lend Kevin s' argument definite credibility as it would seem that Tony C does in fact reduce the rest of scripture to some extent. I am not prepared to go there. That said I do not think Paul would have agreed with the incessant focus on the subject we have today in the conservative church.
If homosexuality is a sin it can be no less and no more against God than greed, sloth, or bigotry. Bigotry could be what the conservative church is guilty of with regards to homosexuals, even if you allow for the life style being wrong. So even if Homosexuality is wrong, a stance that is focused against it can not be right. Pot calling the kettle sort of thing, or to use Jesus' words, a mote and beam sort of thing.

Re: Campolo’s Letter on CT with Guthrie’s Column (by Ryan Rodrick Beiler)

Wayne — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:38:49 -0000

Kevin
Do you mean to say that if we held the correct political beliefs we would then interpret scripture correctly?

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:09:55 -0000

"The problem with your reasoning is that Wallis concedes the need for laws regulating immigration."

Saying that having laws is okay is a far cry from saying that the laws we have are just. Our laws are not only unjust they are unworkable. Your really grasping here to make this statement. Are you really trying to defend the current system?

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:49:22 -0000

Wayne
As Christians I would ask us to examine the motivation behind such laws.

If you talk to many undocumented you will hear a question. "When I was in Mexico you sent missionaries to tell me about God's love. Now you seem to hate me because I needed work and food. If you think I came here to hurt you I think you have forgotten I just needed work and this was the only way."

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:10:17 -0000

"Examples of people being forced to live in rat infested apartments , people being forced to work in unsanitary conditions , children growing up in homes where the water and toilets are spreading diseases , etc etc . You can change the heart break stories to justify an opposing position . You do realize supporting the system now allows many employers to take advantage of people in dire need ?"
Mick,
When the choice is rat infested apartments here in the US that also have food in them for your children as opposed to rat infested apartments in Mexico that do not I think even you would choose the one with food.

All you are pointing out my brother is that we could actually do more as individuals to help. Instead, we as individuals are looking for ways to express our fears and hatred and citing some nationalistic rationale for doing so.

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:31:51 -0000

Mick
I am just trying to get people to think. Much of the anti sentiment is just fear. I do not mean to minimize it but that is what it is.
Immigration has always caused these fears, yet time and again history has shown that the fear is groundless.
I am sure there will be many who will give examples of real life situations that are logical to fear but that is called life.
I live with immigration daily. I have seen may bad things first hand. I know of the conditions along the borders. I sympathize with all those who have been hurt. In the end I have to tell you those who are here from foreign lands are in the balance in far more precarious conditions.
I still think we caused this. Not just big business or our government. We, you and I caused this by our inaction. We should have been more active and watchful of our governments inaction since the mid eighties. To now blame poor people for our lack of action is just scapegoating in the name of justice.
Now we have a situation that is serious and demands attention, but knee jerking, fearful and hateful reactions are not going to solve this. No matter how hard we make conditions here, they will always be worse in the countries where immigrants come from. All attempts to persecute these people out of the country end with our becoming something we should fear. These moves will hurt us spiritually, economically and politically.

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:01:44 -0000

Marsha
Could not agree more. I forgot to include that we are also responsible for NAFTA. As a nation we have made so much money out of this from trade and farming to cheap labor. Still many average Americans seem to think they are the only victims. Once again all anger against the undocumented is a "little" misplaced and unwarranted.

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:34:08 -0000

Mick
Current trends toward securing the border are fine. Increasing them is fine.
Providing for labor to move as business needs demand it is fine. To do what we can to protect current American jobs is fine.

Those who have just worked hard and not committed crimes other than their crossing the border should be allowed some way to achieve some kind of legal status.
That is necessary.
Not because I am concerned for Mexicans but because any other option creates paths for hatred, fear and abuse. It will destroy our character and erode our standing in the world.
It is also necessary as it is the only way we can pay the price for our own negligence and mistakes like NAFTA. Some people have already paid and more are going to. For us to opt out of our doing so is not justice. It is just as important that we pay up like responsible adults as it would be for anyone who did wrong to bear the rightful consequences of their actions. The undocumented may have to pay more but they have already paid much for their infraction of our laws.
In the end we will all benefit if we do so.
So no Amnesty for US citizens either.

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:23:05 -0000

Unfortunately , I see as much racism , in fact more coming from the left then the right . Simple fact is if was Canada no one would have a problem of saying wait a second , no more of this , people from Mexico want to come here too . Mick Sheldon

Mick
You asked for some history on immigration and how our policies have changed. I quoted you above to refer to one of those changes. The history of Canada and immigration is that until recently you did not need a visa or a passport in order to come here from our northern neighbor. They just came through one of the many ports of entry and left when you wanted to. Many stayed and started businesses and/or bought homes. They were regarded as undocumented but, unless they committed some real crime, no one cared really.
Mexico, and our other southern neighbors have been another matter entirely. If anyone who was poor came from Mexico they had to do so illegally through the desert. As long as they were just picking grapes no one cared much. It has only been since mainly poor uneducated Hispanic people have been coming and doing more than working at migrant farm jobs that this has become an issue. Even in the recent past when no one cared much about "Mexicans" coming over the border, they were treated differently than a Canadian probably because language and skin color made them more obvious.
I do not think it is fair to say people would rise up against Canadians in favor of Mexicans. There really is no way for those who have crossed our borders in the past twenty years to have done so legally. None. We have never allowed for our need for their labor. The fact that they were undocumented helped farmers pay them less and gave us cheaper food. We wanted them to come here illegally. (That is just one of the reasons why it is wrong for us to demand that they go back now.)
To my knowledge the only legal method we have ever had for Mexican labor was the Bracero program instituted during WWII. This program allowed for farm workers to come here but put them in camps and then told them what farms they were to work for and what wage they would get paid. It was not repealed until the mid 1960's, obviously long after the war, because it lowered wages for farmers who wanted cheaper labor. It was only when Cesar Chavez protested this program that it was finally done away with.
We needed their labor for this work back then and still do, but no one is going to have much of a chance to get even the farm labor portion of a comprehensive reform bill through. It isn't because someone is accusing them of unchristian like behavior though. That is not what is standing in the way.
Mick all of these argument have been aired before I would ask you to look up this history. Find out how we never used to ask for people from Europe to apply for visa's but processed them here, once they arrived, yet how we never did the same for any citizens from Mexico. There is no west coast or Texas equivalent of Ellis Island that i know of.
My grandfather came here from Germany in 1900 at the age of five. His parents never applied for a Visa. By 1914 he was in the army and eventually went to Europe to fight against his German brothers. The only immigrants we have ever feared and abused in mass, like we are now, were either Hispanic or Chinese. If there is no racial reasoning behind our immigration policies why is this true?

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:30:21 -0000

"As an American, I understand and support the need for controlled immigration." NMRod

The largest group of people who are opposed to controlled immigration are those demanding no reform, just enforcement. What we have now is the status quo, which in no way can be characterized as controlled anything.

Anyone who thinks "enforcement only" will work is, in my humble opinion, greatly mistaken.
Reform that works should be the goal. Reform that allows for the legal influx of workers as they are needed and the ability to earn a way toward legal status of some kind for those already here, is what is needed.
Enforcement is only a part of this. By itself it will not work unless we take such strident measures as to deny the humanity of others in the name of "the rule of law".
Don
The Irish, German and Italian immigrants of the past certainly experienced prejudice that was uncalled for and unjust. I was only referring to Federal laws passed to ban their entry. Other than recent law I am aware no other ethnic group that was singled out except for the Chinese. For instance we have a world lottery for green cards but Mexico is excluded from participating and therefore, practically speaking, no low skilled, or low educated Mexican citizen can possibly obtain legal entry. Only people with professional status can gain entry through any other visa programs. Sponsorship is available but cannot come close to meeting the demand for jobs and employment. Temporary visa programs are also so severely limited in the numbers they would allow that demand continues to outstrip legal supply. Pure and simple.
The current system cannot accommodate the need. Since we continue to refuse to change it we are essentially co-conspirators in the problem. To merely blame the poor man for finding work here illegally when we are in control of the system that make this the only way they can do so, is just wrong.
We can change this and fix it. No Hispanic man or woman needing work can do it. All they can do is try to feed their children in the only manner we allow for them to do so. I refuse to condemn anyone found in their position. The fact that someone can cite the law and our right as a nation to enact such laws is not germane.

To my knowledge our immigration laws were found to be racially biased back in the sixties, and they were changed, but not in a manner so as to fix the problems. The changes were cosmetic for the most part and kept the status quo system intact. That system has, since the twentieth century at least, had racial and ethnic bias' built into it. Ergo it was found to be wrong, it just wasn't fixed. Perhaps James could shed more light on this.

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:51:52 -0000

Mick
I have worked with the poor for over twenty five years. In all that time I have met many people who were felons. Some had been incarcerated and served/or were serving their time, others had been caught but not convicted, still others were guilty and had not been caught.
Not all of them were poor, or of an ethnic minority. Some of them were respected in the community at the time I met them. I do not find this a strange occurance or something only inner city workers run into. It happens every Sunday at Churches all over the country.
If any of them needed help that I could give them I would do it. Are you asking me if I would knowingly abet their crimes? Of course not, but in the case of the undocumented just what is the crime and where is the guilt? The fact that it has so much public scrutiny is not the factor.
Certainly a man who steals bread is not the same as the man who steals the bakery and the difference is more than the way they dress or the bag they carry in their hand to assist them in their crime. One of them may not be considered a criminal at all, yet if needed, I hope the help would be the same.
If a man broke into my house to find food would I shoot him? Would I give him the food? Would I call the police and have him taken to jail?
My house has been broken into many times. I have done both options 2 and 3, never thought about 1.
I know people that have been deported though that we might as well have shot. They are dead, (more sob stories for you Kevin). Penalty doesn't seem to fit the crime to me.
I also know of Citizens who employed undocumented workers. Paid them 16.00 per hour, good money for this market, more than I earned when doing like work. They took out taxes and everything, using IRS provided taxpayer identity numbers. The only reason for doing this was they couldn't find enough citizens to fill the jobs. One of these employers paid for an undocumented worker to have a hip replacement surgery. Lots of money! He told me the guy was such a good worker he loved doing it, even though the worker could never come back to doing that hard work again. He told me he considered it "back pay". Both are good men. Both knowingly broke the law. Which one would you have me turn away from?

Most of us have gotten goods and services that were cheaper because of undocumented workers. We didn't know it perhaps, but many of us did, and all of us should have. Like when we bought those grapes at the store or that gallon of milk, (the dairy industry is rife with undocumented workers, as of course is all farming). How much money was made in the stock market because of higher profits caused in some part by lower wages? And yes, some people have lost jobs because of undocumented workers. Aren't we guilty Mick? Just how much guilt do we really want to know about here?

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 02:02:50 -0000

Kevin
My last reply was held up by the censor. If it doesn't make it through I will try again.

"It's also rife with price controls. As such, the only people profiting from the cheap labor are farmers, which is generally the situation across the board."

You do buy food don't you Kevin? Being a consumer you have profited from cheap "undocumented" labor "across the board" as you put it. As I put it you were raised on "cheap" immigrant grown and picked food and didn't care one bit, nor did your parents, unless they were Oklahoman migrant farm workers. Today you are feeding your children with food produced by the sweat of the very people you want to hold accountable for breaking our laws. If you are like me you are even shopping around to find the lowest price available. Any dollar you don't spend is the equivalent of a one dollar profit. Don't blame it on the Farmer. All of us have made money on undocumented workers.

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:38:06 -0000

"it is WRONG to move those who have ignored our laws, to the front of the line ahead of the hard-working immigrants who have invested the time and money of coming here the right way." Bradley

The last reform bill that was shot down did not move anyone to the front of the line. They had to wait over a decade to achieve any permanent status and/or until all of those in the line had been cleared. It also fined them an aggregate 60 billion dollars. Were you for this bill or not?
It surely wasn't perfect but almost all of attempts to change it from the opposition were intended to make it either meaningless or mean. The intention appeared to be to make everyone go back home. That seems to still be the intent of many, despite the fact that to do so would probably change the nature of our Republic. What James has pointed out is that this law is just another example of this.
We cannot kick 12 million people out unless we want to become a police state. We cannot force them out unless we want to become hateful.
Secure the border, and manage the flow of workers. Provide some way to allow those here to achieve some kind of legal status which will allow us to also manage that problem. Fine them! Even demand a "touchback" that can be achieved if you must.
Why be hateful when the answers are just not that hard. The only thing stopping reform is an overzealous need to punish people for being in such need that they broke our ill advised and ill written laws. We can be safer and at the same time be fair. As a nation that desire is deep in our roots. Run with it and stop all this bellyaching and blaming.
If you want to be mad, then be mad at the politicians who made the mess. If we voted out of office all of those who were in office during the years of this debacle's formation, maybe the new guys would get down to working on a compromise solution we all can live with.
Solve the problem with care and humanity. Is that really so hard to devise a plan for?
Do we all just want to remain the dupes of the politicians who have handed us this mess but refuse to fix it because they want to be re-elected? Why shouldn't they be punished? If we as a nation are in such danger and our citizens are suffering because of undocumented workers and an unsecured border, then anyone, Republican or Democrat, who refused to work out a compromise that could have achieved both, should be voted out of office by their next election cycle. How can anyone of them defend their lack of action? They have had over twenty years to fix this. Are they entitled to more time? Are they entitled to remain our representatives in D.C.? Aren't they the wiser and more appropriate focus of our anger and demands for justice? We can make lemonade out of this if we will just have the courage to do what is both humane and fair.

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:09:43 -0000

Wolverine
I do not think anyone is shocked that you want the best for our country. Just disagree on the plan to do the best for us. James is certainly concerned for what is best and I think Don can be proven to be a concerned citizen as can you.
Can anyone cite an historic example where immigration hurt our country?

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:18:17 -0000

"There is a thing you want, which is legalization. You resist any effort to strengthen enforcement that doesn't begin with granting legal residency to the vast majority of those currently here illegally (or undocumentedly, if you prefer)Wolverine

This is perhaps a better example of a straw man argument from the anti reform side.

We have never resisted border enforcement. Legalization "in some form", of the undocumented is only one part of the solution and if done alone it will do no good. I have not insisted that reforms begin with legalization of the undocumented who are already here, and as James pointed out neither have any of the proposals for reform that were before Congress. Everyone wants workable laws that are strictly enforced.

Comprehensive reform means you deal with all of these things at the same time. There is no just reasoning I can find that impels us to put one before the other.
If there was I would support it. Once comprehensive reform is accomplished vigorous enforcement would not only be right it would also be necessary.
I can think of no good reason to "begin" with laws that cause the forcible expulsion of 12 million people and the wrongful punishment of those who help people. Not because of the harm to them, though that is a great concern, but because of the harm it would do to our national ideals.

There are groups who oppose immigration reform whose reasons have nothing to do with national security or economics. When someone finds they are having mud thrown at them, it is aimed at those groups. I am sorry, but it might help if you moved away from them and out of the line of fire. You do not need to stand so close and thereby seem to align your ideals with their goals in order to achieve either security or fairness.

It appears sort of disingenuous to say you are not against the undocumented or wish them harm when all the things you support look like they will not only begin with punitive actions, they will also end there. Bradley, your admission that this OK law is ill advised is a good starting place.

Why not demand the reform of stupid laws? What is so un-American, unconservative, or anti "rule of law" about that? Keep pushing, pushing, pushing for securing the borders, that's not only okay, that is good and necessary. Find a way to allow for the undocumented to be recognized and achieve some sort of legal status. THE WAY TO START IS BY DEMANDING THAT CONGRESS STOP THE POLITICS AND REFORM THE SYSTEM. The status quo is wrong. There is no way to defend the current situation and the system that created it. Blaming poor people is a close as you can get to doing so and that path makes you look mean. I am sorry that this is true but how else are we to look at it?

Re: Celebrating True Thanksgiving: One Native American View (by Randy Woodley)

Wayne — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:32:36 -0000

Maybe it would be a good idea to set aside a day for mourning and atonement as well as one for Thanksgiving.
I think it would be great as long as it was also secret.
Nothing could be done in the open or for attention. No tax credits given, no rewards but those in heaven.
Just a day when we could do something to say we are sorry for both our sins and those of our fathers and mothers, regardless of race or creed. A day to seriously consider the grace of God for us and our parents and our neighbors. A day to come to grips with the sadness of sin's consequences and try to lighten the load for another.

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:41:21 -0000

Mick
I do not know if you will come back to this but thought I would wish you and yours a great Thanksgiving day.

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:27:17 -0000

Richard and John
I cannot find any reference to anyone being called "illegal" in Bible. Instead I find thousands of references to the poor, the stranger, the foreigner, the weak, those who are in need, in prison, the orphan, the widow, all of which I am to welcome into my home if they have need. I am to welcome them as if they were Jesus himself, with honor and dignity.
Your anger is misdirected.

Re: A New Fugitive Slave Act? (by Jim Wallis)

Wayne — Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:45:01 -0000

I am not sure if there is anyone coming back to this thread but may I say that Richard is one of the folks pushing against immigration reform.
Richard
I thank you for these last posts. I could not have done a better job of demonstrating the need to be sure we all are Christians first and Americans second and just exactly what is at stake here. This is not about jobs, or about being over run by Latinos who want to change our way of life. It is about people like you who want to change America into a enclave of white power and who are using fear to do what reason cannot.
Even if we do not agree with your beliefs, if we are not careful about making that distinction we could quite easily find ourselves promoting ideas that are exactly in line with your desires and goals.

Re: Who’s the Illegal Immigrant, Pilgrim? (by Randy Woodley)

Wayne — Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:50:14 -0000

So jefe, you would have agreed with John Winthrop?

"The devout Pilgrims did not weep for the lost Wampanoag, Patuxet, and Massachuset civilizations. Instead, one of their leaders, John Winthrop, made a "legal" declaration annulling any native claims to the land. "The Indians," he said, "had not 'subdued' the land, and therefore had only a 'natural' right to it, but not a 'civil right.' A 'natural right' did not have legal standing" (Zinn, A People's History of the United States, page 14).

Oh well, what's past is past, right? Or is it?
Maybe the undocumented could make a similar claim. "They had laws but they were all "banged up" and did not work. Besides they did not enforce them for over forty years. Obviously they did not care, so we have a right to be here."
Simple anger and frustration didn't work too well for the Native American's, why do we think it will work for us now?
Anger and frustration at the immigrant alone is not the correct response. Enacting even more severe laws while leaving the immigration system in havoc is not the right response. Forcing Congress to reform those "banged up" laws, and then making sure they are enforced, is.

Perhaps I might think anti immigration people were being honest and could even agree with them in this issue if I ever heard of them pushing their Congressmen and Senators for anything like that. Instead all I hear is fear and hate.
It is not enough to enforce stupid "banged up" laws. It is not justice when we simply enforce "banged up laws". The law needs to be corrected.

Re: Who’s the Illegal Immigrant, Pilgrim? (by Randy Woodley)

Wayne — Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:22:13 -0000

I asked for this before and no one took up the question. Perhaps you didn't think I was serious but I assure you I am.
Does anyone know of a time in history where immigration was bad for this country. I am sure many could find instances where there were arguments pro and con but with hindsight does any historian view past migrations of people to our country as having been bad?

Re: Who’s the Illegal Immigrant, Pilgrim? (by Randy Woodley)

Wayne — Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:12:05 -0000

Bill
Couldn't much of what you said about Latin American countries also have been said about the English during the Irish immigrations and the potato famine?
Overall, were we as a country hurt by Irish immigration?
Italian?
Norwegian?
Russian?
German?
Chinese?
Don't things usually have to be pretty bad in your home country before people decide to leave in mass numbers?

To my knowledge (which is not great on this, and that is why I asked the question) none of these migrations were done by people who applied for visas. They just came and some stayed. From the recent Manhattan Institute forum those who stayed were often only about 50% of those who came. Could it be that if we allowed for these new immigrants to come and go, half of them would also go back?

It is my understanding that though numbers are greater, this current migration is actually a much smaller one based on the percentage of our overall population.
Why is this one so hard? Or is it harder than those? Are we just doomed to argue about this and every future migratory movement?

Re: Who’s the Illegal Immigrant, Pilgrim? (by Randy Woodley)

Wayne — Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:57:26 -0000

"if American Christians like yourself are so concerned for the plight of immigrants, wouldn't Christ's commission be more about going TO them to help their situation in their country, instead of waiting for them to get so desperate that they come here?"

Jefe, I did not have to wait for them to come. they have been coming for the last century.
The only difference now is the number and the jobs that they are obtaining.
When the Samaritan found the man on the road who was in need did he organize a mission to help all the needy people from the beaten man's home town?

I wish things weren't the way they are.
I wish we had paid attention, enforced our laws and changed them to fit the situation better.
I wish a lot of things.
Here is what we can do.
We have the power to help.
We have the duty to treat our fellow man as ourselves.
We have the obligation to force our legislators to change the current immigration system and stop playing politics.

I wish we would do what we can and should do, and forget all this arguing, blaming, fearing, and hating.

Re: Who’s the Illegal Immigrant, Pilgrim? (by Randy Woodley)

Wayne — Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:26:12 -0000

Jefe
It would be nice if we could do as you suggest but we cannot. Let me try to explain.

A woman is being raped, right now, somewhere in my city. She won't tell anybody about it though. She will not call the police and she may not seek medical care. As I write this, a child is being molested in my city. Their mother knows about it but she also will not report it to the authorities. Both of these women have been in this country since they were children themselves. One is a healthy hard working woman who pays her taxes with an IRS TIN number, the other one is slightly retarded and finds work wherever she can. Neither of them knows much about Mexico and have not been there since early childhood. End result, both a rapist and a pedophile are therefore loose in our streets.
There are many reasons these two women will not report these situations but the main one is they are afraid of the police and are sure they will be turned over to ICE and deported if they sought help. Here the police have been known to contact ICE if for any reason they find someone who does not have documentation. The chief of Police says this will not happen but then we turn on our TV news and see examples to prove him wrong. So the women are right to fear the authorities. Neither of them have any real option of going back to Mexico, just the legal imperative that they do so.
Both of these examples are in part hypothetical but I assure you I know real women whose stories are identical to these two examples. In the real women's lives they both have children who are citizens of the US. In one of these real world instances the woman will probably be deported, but her children will stay here. That woman is the one whose children were raped. The reason this happened is that her husband was deported and, being homeless and unable to go back to Mexico, she was forced to find shelter in the home of a man who then raped her kids. CPS stepped in and is going to sever her relationship with her children. Once that is done she will be deported and her children will stay as wards of the state. There is good news here for the children perhaps. Time will tell. But none of this had to happen the way it did except that our laws are so screwed up.

Now, since I have met them and been brought to their circumstance, much like the Good Samaritan, what can I do? Well, there is a lot I can do. I can try to adopt the children or become their foster parents. I could get one of these women medical care. I could help them find work. I could help them find safe shelter.

I could get involved in forcing Government to do its job. Not the job of caring for poor people. The job of creating just laws. The job of securing the border. The job of taking care of its citizen's safety, who in this case are the children and anyone else who becomes the victim of the perpetrators of these crimes.

If I help these two women I will be called unamerican by some and, if I lived in Oklahoma, I may even be charged with aiding and abetting. If I try to change the laws I will be accused of becoming too political and turning away from the true spiritual meaning of the Gospel. I will be accused of being a heretic and a liberal. None of these accusations will be true, and by the way, none of them are hypothetical.

Re: Who’s the Illegal Immigrant, Pilgrim? (by Randy Woodley)

Wayne — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:23:17 -0000

Perhaps Eric has confused the word responsibility with culpability.
We would do well to remember the sins of our father's.
All of history comes to us with a guarantee. We will pay for it and so will our sons and daughters.
It is the practical reason we should love our neighbor as ourselves. It is in our best interest to do so, just as it was in our best interest that Adam and Eve obey. Able surely paid for the past and he was held responsible, as are we all.
We aided the Taliban in the past. Now that looks like a mistake. We thought we needed to restrain the USSR and the Taliban seemed to fit that bill for us. Well the Soviet Union fell without a shot. Maybe the cost of their war in Afghanistan helped to push it over but more probably all it did was show us how very weak the Soviets already were. In the end we were attacked by some of the very people we gave weapons to. It is an irony that I sometimes long for the "good old days" when all we had to do was face that old enemy.
Eric you and I didn't actually do much of anything back then. We paid our taxes and voted, (hopefully both are true) but that was all. I never harbored any ill will toward Afghanistan, still you and I are responsible.
And if you really do know history you would know that most all Europeans benefited from the subjugation of the Native Americans. If you included the rest of the colonized world you would be able to include all of Europe and the United States as beneficiaries. How do you suppose we came to be the most powerful of nations if not through the theft of land and resources?
Your seeming attempt to make this into an amoral scenario in reference to yourself is not logical.
I am beginning to ask myself what would have happened if, in all of these past episodes, we had just sent food or helped to build schools or hospitals.

Re: Who’s the Illegal Immigrant, Pilgrim? (by Randy Woodley)

Wayne — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:48:39 -0000

Okay, so you are confusing the term responsible with culpable. They are not necessarily synonyms.
letjustice may be able to get you on the right track with his question.
The evil treatment of our Native Americans is certainly not just a thing of the past. Would you be more comfortable with acknowledging that we are all responsible for the present? That does not mean you are guilty of doing anything, just responsible to do what you can to make sure that present actions are just and equitable up to and including paying for the past sins of our fathers. At the very least it would include an acknowledgment of those wrong acts and an attitude of understanding in regards to what those acts have meant to the present day Native peoples.
Most of us are satisfied with the defence that we didn't do anything. We never seem to think that we may be guilty of doing nothing.
No one can get off the hook of history. If we are to ever get it right we have to hold ourselves responsible for it and then do what we can to make it right.

Re: Water Problem Across Trinidad?

Wayne — Sun, 29 Apr 2007 07:04:00 -0000

I can't believe, that for something as small as a water problem, you would consider changing parties, that's so silly.. I think, and what i noticed in the other blogs, is that people are afraid of putting their names...

Ok Sandra I know you have an opinion, but look at all he good things the PNM has done to Improve our country, thats only a Water! Problem

Re: vlogs: Bring Some Color To Your Life!

Wayne — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:23:00 -0000

That means, our Birthday are one day apart. Happy Early Birthday!

Re: The epitome of spring training

Wayne — Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:13:00 -0000

Based on some of the pictures from Spring Training, Daisuke clearly throws a circle change himself. I know that Foulke did, too. I suspect that it's not the pitch itself, but the skill of the pitcher that determines it's trajectory. Perhaps Schilling will be able to development some late movement on his circle change in time.

Re: Some songs for the ride home…

Wayne — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:06:04 -0000

Happy Turkey Day!

Re: CPA Exam Score Release Predictions - April/May Window - Wave 1

Wayne — Tue, 19 May 2009 07:53:02 -0000

No REG in IL yet. Hopeful that it will be in this morning.

Re: CPA Exam Score Release Predictions - April/May Window - Wave 1

Wayne — Sat, 23 May 2009 17:00:34 -0000

Good day in IL. Just got home from FAR (last one) to see my REG score. Goodbye library, hello summer!

Re: CPA Exam Score Release Predictions - April/May 2009 Window - Wave 2

Wayne — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 01:17:18 -0000

Waiting for FAR (last one) in IL. Please, let this end.

Re: parties, facebook, and guilt

Wayne — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 01:50:02 -0000

Guilty by association.Chances are you shouldn't have been so camera happy where you might comprimise yourself.Did you really need photos?Welcome to big brother...........

Re: Oscar snobs snub ‘The Dark Knight’

Wayne — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 02:09:23 -0000

I heard a lot about the movie prior to seeing it.(suicide).
It was a shame because I was prejudging before seeing it.
I definitely liked the Joker character.Very dark and more sinister than any Batman character to date.(kudos to Jack but..)We lost a good actor..was Brokeback Mountain too much??

Re: 02078500300

Wayne — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 11:27:37 -0000

i keep getting rang by these but have never answered it coz well never know what they are wanting if someone could tell me what they want and who they are i would love to know so can get one up on them if i answer the phone i am from uk and would be greatful if anyone could let me know coz i am sick and tired of them ringing me all day and night

Re: 01613800034

Wayne — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:12:22 -0000

YES O2. ANSWER PHONE MESSAGE WHEN YOU PHONE IT

Re: Paul and Heather McCartney Visit Canadian Seals

Wayne — Tue, 14 Mar 2006 17:14:47 -0000

Here's a link to help silence Lady Heather McCartney. I think most would enjoy this.

www.ninetywhiteway.ca/shutherup</p>

Re: CEPA Shutters the Nation's Leading Computer Recycler

Wayne — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:29:11 -0000

Don't confuse the California EPA, which is a state agency, with the federal EPA department. California waste standards are more strict than the federal governments. Here is a link to California's Zero Waste Program:

http://www.zerowaste.ca.gov/</p>

Households are subject to the same restrictions and fines that businesses are. All televisions and computer monitors sold in the state have a mandated "recycling tax" that is included in the price as do many other items.

My guess is that this company failed to seek the proper licensing for handling ewaste and recycling it back when the law was passed in 2005 and then strengthened this year. If they had, they would be receiving state funding through the same recycling tax stated above.

Re: Survey: Paper or Porcelain?

Wayne — Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:40:20 -0000

3 days a week, I walk 1/3rd a mile with my travel mug and buy a cup of coffee.. It is fairtrade shadegrown organic coffee.. It costs me $1.80. The rest of the week, I make my own. Using Fair Trade Shadegrown Organic coffee... It costs me 79 cents a pot roughly.

I don't go to the coffee house for the coffee though. I go to get out of the house. Working at home makes you pretty isolated at times. Especially since my wife uses the only car for work because there are no carpools and no public transportation to her job site in the mountains,

Re: Angelina Jolie Announces Commitments to Educate One Million Children Affected by Conflict

Wayne — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:07:31 -0000

By publicizing her good works she brings much needed attention to the causes she supports. Many Americans will "Zone out" when they hear or see a report about the attempts to help educate children in conflict striken regions but as soon as you say Angelina Jolie peoples ears perk up. Face it, America is a land of "Star" worshipers with short attention spans. If a little self promotion on her part brings people to a cause even if they do it just to emulate her, how is that a bad thing?

Re: Angelina Jolie Announces Commitments to Educate One Million Children Affected by Conflict

Wayne — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:08:00 -0000

Re: http://www.crimene.ws/2009/01/craigslist-survey-scam.html

Wayne — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 22:20:32 -0000

Hey there Mark I read what you wrote on Jan. 19 2009 and have pasted your comment

But a little to late as my wife fell into the pit $3600. It seems when you are going to make it to the front door the flood comes along and has its way with us. As I was reading along to your comments about your acute in-site I was taken back by how little I know of the streets. So to speek. I would like to offer you any gentlemens favor or deed to help me find myself in the laps of the ones that have ripped at the fabric we call pride. I can be reached at wernzer7@yahoo.com I will toil to make what ever you do for me right. This is a pledge of the highest mark. Thank you Wayne

January 19, 2009 at 3:08 pm

just received my $3600 check. its a scam. 1st - no magma office in peekskill, 2nd- the check is from “new alternatives fund inc” (not magma) in melville, ny. the bank its from is pnc in west mifflin, pa. (the towns are not near each other). 3rd - check # is 316, kind of a low number (new alternatives is a real co. selling mutual funds and have been in business several years, they do not conduct research). finally, and the best - google yvonnia houston (the “officer” the funds are to be wired to) and “she” has been involved in 2 other moneygram scams using 2 different co. names (mlk marketing and hr survey consulting). they have originated in other parts of the country, some people have fallen for it twice. I have done focus groups for several years, no one pays you $400 for such an easy task with such little oversight. i’ll send davey my own email, as well as the ftc and bbb. other should do the same

Reply

Re: Try to be more respectful - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:38:00 -0000

I'm with sconner...
I know I don't always have the most eloquent manner of speaking, but I know that I'll be able to say it here - no matter how ugly.

besides... sometimes, you just gotta say "What the fuck".

Thanks Webmdave. This is a great place you've got here (if only it served Red Hook IPA...)

Re: Try to be more respectful - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:47:00 -0000

Thanks webmdave...
I'll relax now.

Re: Try to be more respectful - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:10:00 -0000

Fuckin newb

Re: Try to be more respectful - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:03:00 -0000

"But I thought we were talking about words. Isn't that what you said?"

OK - does it really matter WHO claimed responsibility? Did their claiming responsibility actually HURT anyone? How did their WORDS bring those buildings down.

Yes - they were JUST WORDS. You brought the whole 911 thing up.

Re: Try to be more respectful - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:00:00 -0000

By the way - I think Zappa was right. What you fail to realize is that he KNEW people in large groups are usually pretty stupid and can get worked up into some really stupid actions because of words. It doesn't make the words bad, however. Just the morons too dumb to think for themselves.

Moreover - If you cared to read my post as a general comment (i.e. not an attack on precious YOU), you'd realize that I was talking to the original poster about the "offensive" language we use on the site. It's not for everyone, and if those certain people can't take it, they need to GO AWAY.

As far as bad mouthing christians as encouragement - it works for me. I thought I was alone for the longest time, and I've found a place to let my hate spill all over the "holier than thou" motherfuckers. I personally think they deserve every bit of it.

Re: Try to be more respectful - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:48:00 -0000

gregswell said,

"Would you laugh off someone calling your wife (sister, mother, fill in the blank) a child-fucking pedophile?"
- Yeah, I would because I know it's bullshit.

"When Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for America's 9/11 tragedy -- well, those were just words, right? "
- Uh, NO! Did you forget about the buildings that were blown up? Those aren't words, they are actions... BIG difference.

"Only until they're aimed at you or someone/thing you care for."
- Only if you're weak enough to let them affect you.

"One more thing, Wayne.
About the "don't preach to us" line:
Where and/or when have I suggested anyone here do what I do?"
- Do me a favor and get over yourself. I was talking to anybody who comes on here and starts trying to save us poor lost ex-jebus peoples... Did you are wise enough to know OTHER people post here I hope...
Rip away. I shit bigger than you.

Re: Try to be more respectful - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:40:00 -0000

Years ago (1986 I think), Frank Zappa was on Crossfire fighting the christian right about censorship and rock music. I remember he came up with a great point about WORDS. He wondered how certain combinations of syllables seemed to cause certain people so much trouble. These words do no physical harm - they really don't lead to increased violence, or lawlessness, sexual indecency, etc...

What makes somebody afraid of certain words? If I hear someone calling someone a "cock-blocking donkey fucker", I'm probably going to laugh a little, and then continue on with my day. I just don't get how these wimps can get so panty-twisted over words.
There are no "bad" words. there is only intent. But the "bad" intention of a word vs. the bad intention of an action (saying fuck you vs. pulling a gun on someone) isn't in the same ballpark. But the xtian right thinks it should be.
Now we live in the POLITICAL CORRECT era. Thanks christians! You namby-pambies who give words more power than they deserve.

If words were SO freaking powerful, since we are totally inundated with "love songs", by the mindset of these whack-nuts, shouldn't we all be "loving" each other by now?

If you want respect on this site, you earn it. Don't expect the welcome wagon from everyone. And DEFINITELY - don't try preaching to us. That's like snapping a belt in a home for abused kids... UNWELCOME and NOT RESPECTED.

Re: Try to be more respectful - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:28:00 -0000

" kwartist99 said...
Wayne thanks for that, ill cut and paste it to remind me of the person I hope to never be regardless of a belief in a higher power, way too lose it for no fuckin reason."

I never claimed to be a role model for anyone. As far as "no fuckin reason"... I have my reasons that are deeper to me than I'd ever tell anybody. I'll cut and paste your quote to remind me to not be an assumptive dipshit who thinks he knows peoples' reasons for acting certain ways.

Get off of my back and go practice your "art".

Re: Try to be more respectful - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 02:20:00 -0000

Ken and Wal-Russ...

If you can't take it here, go start your own site where everyone will be pleasant to each other, and flowers will grow, and kids will frolic in the sunny plains...

Hey fuckers - the world is a rough and tumble place. I grew up having offensive shit forced on me and I had no say in it or I got my ass kicked.

You two pussies came here VOLUNTARILY. Bitching about it once you walk in the door (that happens to be a WIDE OPEN EXIT as well) plainly illustrates what's wrong with this world. You fucktards get offended by us blowing off YEARS of frustration and anger - yet you don't seem to give a flying fuck about the offenses that got us so angry in the first place. Respect? Fuck you. Respect that.

Go back to your fuckin' hannah montana website and leave us alone, unless you've got something more than your own weak prejudices to add to the conversation.

Re: This site is such a disappointment - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 09:54:00 -0000

If you don't like it here, then GO AWAY. Don't come in here, a place that I have found more reassuring and helpful folks than ANY church could imagine, and start insulting everyone's intelligence with your arrogant bullshit. This is a place for us to rant and cry and work out the trauma that religion dumped on us. For you to come "strolling in", shitting on us, and then telling us that the place sucks is just fucked in the head.
Fuck you, fuck your mother, fuck your family. Go back from wherever you crawled out of. Maybe you'll enjoy disney.com - it seems like that may be more your speed.
You're just as bad as the old ladies who bitch about sex and violence on TV, or the sanctimonious assholes who complain about the content of hip-hop music.
Guess what - IT WASN"T MADE FOR YOU! Change the channel, turn it off, walk the fuck away, go to the library, ANYTHING... just leave us the fuck alone.
Log off of the site, go put the dick back in your ass, and FUCK OFF - we don't want your troll bullshit.

Re: I have experienced God, but... - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 01:11:00 -0000

Do what I did.... I got it from another post on this site about a year ago.

Take your bible and start reading, but just replace the word "God" with "Zeus". Pick any other ancient god name for "Jesus" and do the same.

The stories become utterly ridiculous from a christian point of view, but from the rational point of view, it doesn't matter what name is in the spot. It was one of the many REAL awakenings I'd had concerning "god" and the fictional and allegorical nature of biblical stories.

I'd suggest watching the first part of "Zeitgeist" which can be found for free on zeitgeist.com

If you are willing to hear the real history, you will be willing to really free your mind of doubt. You must ask yourself "why are all of the church's answers rhetorical and mystical when confronted with critical questions?"
You need to not so much study the bible, but study the HISTORY of the bible as a book. How that book was actually compiled is an eye opener. The unerring "Word of God"? I think not....

Keep asking questions, above all. Don't stop until you are satisfied with the answers, because it all boils down to you. You will have to live with feelings of dissatisfaction from ignorance, or the freedom of real knowledge - not your priest, not your family, not your friends...YOU. You've got a life to live. Don't squander it.

Re: Spiritual idiots - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:21:00 -0000

Rev.... I left because my "relationship" with your god was abusive. Every time I opened my heart and sought "his" help, I'd end up worse off than before. Phrases like "God's Plan" and "thy will be done" only made me feel like the stepchild that gets cracked across the face by a drunken parent because I left the toilet lid up... "Yeah - I'm sorry your mom died thirty years too soon, and your dad was a womanizing, manipulative liar, and your best friend died in a head on collision... God must have a plan for them..."
BULLSHIT!

Fuck you and fuck your god.

My life ONLY turned around for the better when I stopped looking skyward for answers, and I started looking inward and trusting myself. Your cult breeds guilt, self-doubt and loathing, a feeling of unworthiness, and is a total waste of a Sunday.

If you are so adamant that this Hagee is nuts and is giving your church a bad name, GO STOP THE FUCKER. are you christians so impotent that you can't keep your own in line?

So here's a question... What if Hagee is actually right? What if that is exactly what needs to happen? What would think about your faith then?

I digress... To sum up, it's a steaming pile of shit.

Re: I am a christian - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 04:21:00 -0000

How does "gawd" love me? Let me count the ways...(in no particular order)
1 - exposing me to baptist racism at the age of 7
2 - giving my mother gestational diabeties
3 - dividing my family on religious lines
4 - making sure my parents divorced and re-married at least 2 times each
5 - almost killing my brother 3 times
6 - KILLING my mother with kidney failure at 57 (stemmed from the diabetes
7 - sticking me with a hardcore catholic stepmother for 7 years who then switched to jehovahs witness
8 - blessing me with manic depression disorder
9 - blessing my brother with HIV
10 - killing my grandfather slowly by way of dementia (one of the most brilliant men I've ever known)
11 - fucking me over every time I opened my heart to the hope of "god"
12 - killing one of my best friends by a drunk driver right after we graduated high school
13 - giving me the joy of a full on nervous breakdown in 2000

It's amazing...this love and grace that enriched my life so much.

When I realized that god is a lie, my load lifted and I've never been happier. I don't need anti-depressants anymore. My health is improving more and more. My "soul" (for lack of a better term) is finally at peace.

Know God - Know GUILT
no god - NO GUILT

Go back to your little prayer circle, sing KUM BY YA a few times and just tithe yourself into oblivion. As a wise contributor to this site once said before - "You are not the droids we are looking for".

Re: A few words of caution - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:59:00 -0000

William,

I'll make sure I'm nice and humble and not say anything offensive like a good little lemming.

Meanwhile, I'll just humbly sit and watch every fucking evilangelist on TV arrogantly strut about and lead the other lemmings into bankruptcy.

Oh yeah, I'll make sure that I don't cause a fuss when I see presidential candidates talking about changing The United States Constitution into a christian rag... while they rip science out of our schools to replace it with a fairy tale... to see a stem cell get more respect and consideration than a fully developed human... to see people persecuted for what they do in the privacy of their own homes between consenting adults...

Yeah William.. I'll make sure I don't offend anyone as I tell you to go fuck yourself.

Re: What next? - Letters to the Webmaster

Wayne — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 10:09:00 -0000

What I fail to understand is, how people can be brought into this world, by no decision or permission of their own and then take on a belief that was written thousands of years before their arrival.

I cannot understand how people can accept the Bible as being pure truth based upon, "It's supposed to be true because it says it is and you're not supposed to rock the boat and just simply believe the Bible because you are supposed to."

It's like Holidays and traditions, we're supposed to give a present on Valentine's Day or dress-up on Easter, or Mother's Day and Father's Day or July 4th or Labor Day or cook a damned Turkey on Thanksgiving Day or give presents on Christmas, simply because we are supposed to do those things, otherwise what would other people think of us?

Now we are supposed to believe the Bible because we are supposed to believe the Bible or burn in Hell.

Something is very wrong with society and beliefs and handed-down traditions.

I believe it all boils down to: "What would other people think of us!" It appears that we are more concerned to what other people would think of each of us, as opposed to what realy is true!

Isn't that what we are all about? We're more interested in what other people's perception of us is, as opposed to what really is based upon real authentic truth.

Isn't that really the goal of the Christian? To take on the personna to look like the Golden Jesus Ambassador for over all good?

Isn't that what Christianity is? Trying to flex other people opinions about them to be percieved to be Christ-like or a Christian or a doer of good?

Isn't Christianity all about one's self and how they look like the Bright and Shinning Star for the Jewel in Jesus's Cap?

Isn't Christianity all about self-righteousness and how everyone else is destined for Hell except the believer that is based on imaginary Faith that they will inherit a promised imaginary reward?

Steve, if you want to be Christ-like I suggest you get off your lazy rump, sell all your Earthly possessions, and go unto all the world and preach, get off of the computer, get out of the USA, go on foot with staff in one hand and the Bible in the other, and do not worry about food or clothing, your God will provide as according to scripture, live like Christ, walk in his footsteps, do as commanded, regardless of hurdles and tribulations, witness unto the world if you want to be a true Christian(TM), then you must do as instructed, otherwise you are destined for the burning Hell as promised by your own book! And you're no better than us!

Steve get off of this websight and live the life of Christ, show your faith unto the world and Jesus!!!

Steve you must be willing to die for your silly beliefs!!!

That's being Christ-like!!! Otherwise you confess with you lips, but your Heart is not in you!!!

Re: http://vixandmore.blogspot.com/2009/08/sideways-play.html

Wayne — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:03:25 -0000

Looks like Uncle "I saved the world" Ben has different ideas.

Re: http://vixandmore.blogspot.com/2009/06/chart-of-week-might-recent-volume.html

Wayne — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 05:49:23 -0000

That's an interesting chart Bill and the conclusion converges with my interpretation of other sentiment indicators.

Total market volume is not one I've watched before, but I will be in the future, thanks for putting it up.

Wayne

Re: http://www.crimene.ws/2008/04/duct-tape-child-abuse.html

Wayne — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:33:48 -0000

You can't be serious. Something seriously wrong with any adult who doesn't see how sick it is for parents to duct tape their children and then post pictures of them crying on My Space. Maybe, Trench, you'd should take some time to reevaluate your morals and logic.

Re: http://hgamer.blogspot.com/2006/10/another-reason-to-say-no-to-battlefield.html

Wayne — Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:41:00 -0000

In response to...
On an interesting note, what the hell is Battlefield 2142 doing that occurs at the kernel-level of the system?

It's installing spyware that checks what you do online so it can send it back to EA, and serve you in-game advertisements.

checkout the digg story on it... there is an insert that states that they will install spyware They tell you not to play the game on any machine connected to the internet...

Re: http://owedtojoy.blogspot.com/2009/03/not-me-monday.html

Wayne — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:53:00 -0000

I would like to invite you to take part in my new post called Tell a joke Tuesday. you can either tell a joke or a funny story that has happend to you or a friend ths week. it has mr linky so the world can view your joke or story. I hope you will take part

Re: http://the-bob-blog.blogspot.com/2007/05/another-year-older.html

Wayne — Tue, 15 May 2007 22:23:00 -0000

They just keep coming, happy birthday!

Re: http://the-bob-blog.blogspot.com/2007/04/some-panoramic-images-rendered-in.html

Wayne — Tue, 15 May 2007 22:24:00 -0000

great pics!

Re: http://the-bob-blog.blogspot.com/2007/04/greenlawn-cemetery.html

Wayne — Tue, 01 May 2007 13:38:00 -0000

Nice pics!

Re: http://the-bob-blog.blogspot.com/2007/04/i-miss-my-old-room.html

Wayne — Tue, 01 May 2007 13:40:00 -0000

Could you put any more stuff in that room?

Re: http://the-bob-blog.blogspot.com/2007/04/why-i-rarely-watch-tv.html

Wayne — Tue, 01 May 2007 13:41:00 -0000

I never watch the talk shows. Too much junk!

Re: http://the-bob-blog.blogspot.com/2007/04/new-bedroom.html

Wayne — Fri, 13 Apr 2007 23:55:00 -0000

Looks very cool!

Re: http://the-bob-blog.blogspot.com/2007/04/second-guessing-my-photo-submission.html

Wayne — Sat, 14 Apr 2007 00:04:00 -0000

I think the pics are awesome!
And you don't know what the "judge's" are seeing, Like I see all the pics but the middle one appear to be leading you some where. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

Re: http://the-bob-blog.blogspot.com/2007/04/laptop-has-new-brain.html

Wayne — Thu, 05 Apr 2007 05:41:00 -0000

Yea, I had hard drive failure this past fall. Luckily I had most files saved to disks. But it did take a while to relocate all my favorite sites.

Re: http://the-bob-blog.blogspot.com/2007/03/movie-day.html

Wayne — Thu, 05 Apr 2007 05:47:00 -0000

I can't wait for the dvd!

Re: http://the-bob-blog.blogspot.com/2007/03/world-of-widgets.html

Wayne — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 07:03:00 -0000

How about Sonific! www.sonific.com
For those bloggers who want to add a little anbience to there site with music.

Re: http://married2military.blogspot.com/2009/02/more-not-mes.html

Wayne — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:12:00 -0000

Great not me monday and I m sure it wont hurt the diet to take the day off.

I am starting a new post on the 12th of march called - Honor them Thursday - and I am looking for as many people to take part as possible. it will have mr linky so your person of honor can be seen by the world. it's a chance to honor the people you love wether it's your mom or dad or you partner or your child or one of your your friends or maybe some one has inspierd you. Honor them and say thankyou. I hope you will join in

Re: http://married2military.blogspot.com/2009/02/more-not-mes.html

Wayne — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:12:00 -0000

Re: http://www.romneymarshtimes.com/2009/09/marsh-school-sleep-slaughter-angers.html

Wayne — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:22:18 -0000

I have 2 daughters that go to Lydd Primary and they have been aware, along with all the other children, that they would raise the lamb and then send it to market / slaughter in September. The decision for this was made in June. It is only a small minority of the parents and children at the school that oppose.

Re: http://www.romneymarshtimes.com/2009/09/marsh-school-sleep-slaughter-angers.html

Wayne — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:22:18 -0000