DISQUS

Waiting for FAR (last one) in IL. Please, let this end.

Good day in IL. Just got home from FAR (last one) to see my REG score. Goodbye library, hello summer!

No REG in IL yet. Hopeful that it will be in this morning.

He's an ill-tempered, ignorant pissant.

Okay, so you are confusing the term responsible with culpable. They are not necessarily synonyms.
letjustice may be able to get you on the right track with his question.
The evil treatment of our Native Americans is certainly not just a thing of the past. Would you be more comfortable with acknowledging that we are all responsible for the present? That does not mean you are guilty of doing anything, just responsible to do what you can to make sure that present actions are just and equitable up to and including paying for the past sins of our fathers. At the very least it would include an acknowledgment of those wrong acts and an attitude of understanding in regards to what those acts have meant to the present day Native peoples.
Most of us are satisfied with the defence that we didn't do anything. We never seem to think that we may be guilty of doing nothing.
No one can get off the hook of history. If we are to ever get it right we have to hold ourselves responsible for it and then do what we can to make it right.

Perhaps Eric has confused the word responsibility with culpability.
We would do well to remember the sins of our father's.
All of history comes to us with a guarantee. We will pay for it and so will our sons and daughters.
It is the practical reason we should love our neighbor as ourselves. It is in our best interest to do so, just as it was in our best interest that Adam and Eve obey. Able surely paid for the past and he was held responsible, as are we all.
We aided the Taliban in the past. Now that looks like a mistake. We thought we needed to restrain the USSR and the Taliban seemed to fit that bill for us. Well the Soviet Union fell without a shot. Maybe the cost of their war in Afghanistan helped to push it over but more probably all it did was show us how very weak the Soviets already were. In the end we were attacked by some of the very people we gave weapons to. It is an irony that I sometimes long for the "good old days" when all we had to do was face that old enemy.
Eric you and I didn't actually do much of anything back then. We paid our taxes and voted, (hopefully both are true) but that was all. I never harbored any ill will toward Afghanistan, still you and I are responsible.
And if you really do know history you would know that most all Europeans benefited from the subjugation of the Native Americans. If you included the rest of the colonized world you would be able to include all of Europe and the United States as beneficiaries. How do you suppose we came to be the most powerful of nations if not through the theft of land and resources?
Your seeming attempt to make this into an amoral scenario in reference to yourself is not logical.
I am beginning to ask myself what would have happened if, in all of these past episodes, we had just sent food or helped to build schools or hospitals.

Jefe
It would be nice if we could do as you suggest but we cannot. Let me try to explain.

A woman is being raped, right now, somewhere in my city. She won't tell anybody about it though. She will not call the police and she may not seek medical care. As I write this, a child is being molested in my city. Their mother knows about it but she also will not report it to the authorities. Both of these women have been in this country since they were children themselves. One is a healthy hard working woman who pays her taxes with an IRS TIN number, the other one is slightly retarded and finds work wherever she can. Neither of them knows much about Mexico and have not been there since early childhood. End result, both a rapist and a pedophile are therefore loose in our streets.
There are many reasons these two women will not report these situations but the main one is they are afraid of the police and are sure they will be turned over to ICE and deported if they sought help. Here the police have been known to contact ICE if for any reason they find someone who does not have documentation. The chief of Police says this will not happen but then we turn on our TV news and see examples to prove him wrong. So the women are right to fear the authorities. Neither of them have any real option of going back to Mexico, just the legal imperative that they do so.
Both of these examples are in part hypothetical but I assure you I know real women whose stories are identical to these two examples. In the real women's lives they both have children who are citizens of the US. In one of these real world instances the woman will probably be deported, but her children will stay here. That woman is the one whose children were raped. The reason this happened is that her husband was deported and, being homeless and unable to go back to Mexico, she was forced to find shelter in the home of a man who then raped her kids. CPS stepped in and is going to sever her relationship with her children. Once that is done she will be deported and her children will stay as wards of the state. There is good news here for the children perhaps. Time will tell. But none of this had to happen the way it did except that our laws are so screwed up.


Now, since I have met them and been brought to their circumstance, much like the Good Samaritan, what can I do? Well, there is a lot I can do. I can try to adopt the children or become their foster parents. I could get one of these women medical care. I could help them find work. I could help them find safe shelter.

I could get involved in forcing Government to do its job. Not the job of caring for poor people. The job of creating just laws. The job of securing the border. The job of taking care of its citizen's safety, who in this case are the children and anyone else who becomes the victim of the perpetrators of these crimes.

If I help these two women I will be called unamerican by some and, if I lived in Oklahoma, I may even be charged with aiding and abetting. If I try to change the laws I will be accused of becoming too political and turning away from the true spiritual meaning of the Gospel. I will be accused of being a heretic and a liberal. None of these accusations will be true, and by the way, none of them are hypothetical.

"if American Christians like yourself are so concerned for the plight of immigrants, wouldn't Christ's commission be more about going TO them to help their situation in their country, instead of waiting for them to get so desperate that they come here?"

Jefe, I did not have to wait for them to come. they have been coming for the last century.
The only difference now is the number and the jobs that they are obtaining.
When the Samaritan found the man on the road who was in need did he organize a mission to help all the needy people from the beaten man's home town?

I wish things weren't the way they are.
I wish we had paid attention, enforced our laws and changed them to fit the situation better.
I wish a lot of things.
Here is what we can do.
We have the power to help.
We have the duty to treat our fellow man as ourselves.
We have the obligation to force our legislators to change the current immigration system and stop playing politics.

I wish we would do what we can and should do, and forget all this arguing, blaming, fearing, and hating.

Bill
Couldn't much of what you said about Latin American countries also have been said about the English during the Irish immigrations and the potato famine?
Overall, were we as a country hurt by Irish immigration?
Italian?
Norwegian?
Russian?
German?
Chinese?
Don't things usually have to be pretty bad in your home country before people decide to leave in mass numbers?

To my knowledge (which is not great on this, and that is why I asked the question) none of these migrations were done by people who applied for visas. They just came and some stayed. From the recent Manhattan Institute forum those who stayed were often only about 50% of those who came. Could it be that if we allowed for these new immigrants to come and go, half of them would also go back?

It is my understanding that though numbers are greater, this current migration is actually a much smaller one based on the percentage of our overall population.
Why is this one so hard? Or is it harder than those? Are we just doomed to argue about this and every future migratory movement?

I asked for this before and no one took up the question. Perhaps you didn't think I was serious but I assure you I am.
Does anyone know of a time in history where immigration was bad for this country. I am sure many could find instances where there were arguments pro and con but with hindsight does any historian view past migrations of people to our country as having been bad?

So jefe, you would have agreed with John Winthrop?

"The devout Pilgrims did not weep for the lost Wampanoag, Patuxet, and Massachuset civilizations. Instead, one of their leaders, John Winthrop, made a "legal" declaration annulling any native claims to the land. "The Indians," he said, "had not 'subdued' the land, and therefore had only a 'natural' right to it, but not a 'civil right.' A 'natural right' did not have legal standing" (Zinn, A People's History of the United States, page 14).

Oh well, what's past is past, right? Or is it?
Maybe the undocumented could make a similar claim. "They had laws but they were all "banged up" and did not work. Besides they did not enforce them for over forty years. Obviously they did not care, so we have a right to be here."
Simple anger and frustration didn't work too well for the Native American's, why do we think it will work for us now?
Anger and frustration at the immigrant alone is not the correct response. Enacting even more severe laws while leaving the immigration system in havoc is not the right response. Forcing Congress to reform those "banged up" laws, and then making sure they are enforced, is.

Perhaps I might think anti immigration people were being honest and could even agree with them in this issue if I ever heard of them pushing their Congressmen and Senators for anything like that. Instead all I hear is fear and hate.
It is not enough to enforce stupid "banged up" laws. It is not justice when we simply enforce "banged up laws". The law needs to be corrected.

I am not sure if there is anyone coming back to this thread but may I say that Richard is one of the folks pushing against immigration reform.
Richard
I thank you for these last posts. I could not have done a better job of demonstrating the need to be sure we all are Christians first and Americans second and just exactly what is at stake here. This is not about jobs, or about being over run by Latinos who want to change our way of life. It is about people like you who want to change America into a enclave of white power and who are using fear to do what reason cannot.
Even if we do not agree with your beliefs, if we are not careful about making that distinction we could quite easily find ourselves promoting ideas that are exactly in line with your desires and goals.

Richard and John
I cannot find any reference to anyone being called "illegal" in Bible. Instead I find thousands of references to the poor, the stranger, the foreigner, the weak, those who are in need, in prison, the orphan, the widow, all of which I am to welcome into my home if they have need. I am to welcome them as if they were Jesus himself, with honor and dignity.
Your anger is misdirected.

Mick
I do not know if you will come back to this but thought I would wish you and yours a great Thanksgiving day.

Maybe it would be a good idea to set aside a day for mourning and atonement as well as one for Thanksgiving.
I think it would be great as long as it was also secret.
Nothing could be done in the open or for attention. No tax credits given, no rewards but those in heaven.
Just a day when we could do something to say we are sorry for both our sins and those of our fathers and mothers, regardless of race or creed. A day to seriously consider the grace of God for us and our parents and our neighbors. A day to come to grips with the sadness of sin's consequences and try to lighten the load for another.

"There is a thing you want, which is legalization. You resist any effort to strengthen enforcement that doesn't begin with granting legal residency to the vast majority of those currently here illegally (or undocumentedly, if you prefer)Wolverine

This is perhaps a better example of a straw man argument from the anti reform side.

We have never resisted border enforcement. Legalization "in some form", of the undocumented is only one part of the solution and if done alone it will do no good. I have not insisted that reforms begin with legalization of the undocumented who are already here, and as James pointed out neither have any of the proposals for reform that were before Congress. Everyone wants workable laws that are strictly enforced.

Comprehensive reform means you deal with all of these things at the same time. There is no just reasoning I can find that impels us to put one before the other.
If there was I would support it. Once comprehensive reform is accomplished vigorous enforcement would not only be right it would also be necessary.
I can think of no good reason to "begin" with laws that cause the forcible expulsion of 12 million people and the wrongful punishment of those who help people. Not because of the harm to them, though that is a great concern, but because of the harm it would do to our national ideals.

There are groups who oppose immigration reform whose reasons have nothing to do with national security or economics. When someone finds they are having mud thrown at them, it is aimed at those groups. I am sorry, but it might help if you moved away from them and out of the line of fire. You do not need to stand so close and thereby seem to align your ideals with their goals in order to achieve either security or fairness.

It appears sort of disingenuous to say you are not against the undocumented or wish them harm when all the things you support look like they will not only begin with punitive actions, they will also end there. Bradley, your admission that this OK law is ill advised is a good starting place.

Why not demand the reform of stupid laws? What is so un-American, unconservative, or anti "rule of law" about that? Keep pushing, pushing, pushing for securing the borders, that's not only okay, that is good and necessary. Find a way to allow for the undocumented to be recognized and achieve some sort of legal status. THE WAY TO START IS BY DEMANDING THAT CONGRESS STOP THE POLITICS AND REFORM THE SYSTEM. The status quo is wrong. There is no way to defend the current situation and the system that created it. Blaming poor people is a close as you can get to doing so and that path makes you look mean. I am sorry that this is true but how else are we to look at it?

Wolverine
I do not think anyone is shocked that you want the best for our country. Just disagree on the plan to do the best for us. James is certainly concerned for what is best and I think Don can be proven to be a concerned citizen as can you.
Can anyone cite an historic example where immigration hurt our country?

"it is WRONG to move those who have ignored our laws, to the front of the line ahead of the hard-working immigrants who have invested the time and money of coming here the right way." Bradley

The last reform bill that was shot down did not move anyone to the front of the line. They had to wait over a decade to achieve any permanent status and/or until all of those in the line had been cleared. It also fined them an aggregate 60 billion dollars. Were you for this bill or not?
It surely wasn't perfect but almost all of attempts to change it from the opposition were intended to make it either meaningless or mean. The intention appeared to be to make everyone go back home. That seems to still be the intent of many, despite the fact that to do so would probably change the nature of our Republic. What James has pointed out is that this law is just another example of this.
We cannot kick 12 million people out unless we want to become a police state. We cannot force them out unless we want to become hateful.
Secure the border, and manage the flow of workers. Provide some way to allow those here to achieve some kind of legal status which will allow us to also manage that problem. Fine them! Even demand a "touchback" that can be achieved if you must.
Why be hateful when the answers are just not that hard. The only thing stopping reform is an overzealous need to punish people for being in such need that they broke our ill advised and ill written laws. We can be safer and at the same time be fair. As a nation that desire is deep in our roots. Run with it and stop all this bellyaching and blaming.
If you want to be mad, then be mad at the politicians who made the mess. If we voted out of office all of those who were in office during the years of this debacle's formation, maybe the new guys would get down to working on a compromise solution we all can live with.
Solve the problem with care and humanity. Is that really so hard to devise a plan for?
Do we all just want to remain the dupes of the politicians who have handed us this mess but refuse to fix it because they want to be re-elected? Why shouldn't they be punished? If we as a nation are in such danger and our citizens are suffering because of undocumented workers and an unsecured border, then anyone, Republican or Democrat, who refused to work out a compromise that could have achieved both, should be voted out of office by their next election cycle. How can anyone of them defend their lack of action? They have had over twenty years to fix this. Are they entitled to more time? Are they entitled to remain our representatives in D.C.? Aren't they the wiser and more appropriate focus of our anger and demands for justice? We can make lemonade out of this if we will just have the courage to do what is both humane and fair.

Kevin
My last reply was held up by the censor. If it doesn't make it through I will try again.

"It's also rife with price controls. As such, the only people profiting from the cheap labor are farmers, which is generally the situation across the board."

You do buy food don't you Kevin? Being a consumer you have profited from cheap "undocumented" labor "across the board" as you put it. As I put it you were raised on "cheap" immigrant grown and picked food and didn't care one bit, nor did your parents, unless they were Oklahoman migrant farm workers. Today you are feeding your children with food produced by the sweat of the very people you want to hold accountable for breaking our laws. If you are like me you are even shopping around to find the lowest price available. Any dollar you don't spend is the equivalent of a one dollar profit. Don't blame it on the Farmer. All of us have made money on undocumented workers.

Mick
I have worked with the poor for over twenty five years. In all that time I have met many people who were felons. Some had been incarcerated and served/or were serving their time, others had been caught but not convicted, still others were guilty and had not been caught.
Not all of them were poor, or of an ethnic minority. Some of them were respected in the community at the time I met them. I do not find this a strange occurance or something only inner city workers run into. It happens every Sunday at Churches all over the country.
If any of them needed help that I could give them I would do it. Are you asking me if I would knowingly abet their crimes? Of course not, but in the case of the undocumented just what is the crime and where is the guilt? The fact that it has so much public scrutiny is not the factor.
Certainly a man who steals bread is not the same as the man who steals the bakery and the difference is more than the way they dress or the bag they carry in their hand to assist them in their crime. One of them may not be considered a criminal at all, yet if needed, I hope the help would be the same.
If a man broke into my house to find food would I shoot him? Would I give him the food? Would I call the police and have him taken to jail?
My house has been broken into many times. I have done both options 2 and 3, never thought about 1.
I know people that have been deported though that we might as well have shot. They are dead, (more sob stories for you Kevin). Penalty doesn't seem to fit the crime to me.
I also know of Citizens who employed undocumented workers. Paid them 16.00 per hour, good money for this market, more than I earned when doing like work. They took out taxes and everything, using IRS provided taxpayer identity numbers. The only reason for doing this was they couldn't find enough citizens to fill the jobs. One of these employers paid for an undocumented worker to have a hip replacement surgery. Lots of money! He told me the guy was such a good worker he loved doing it, even though the worker could never come back to doing that hard work again. He told me he considered it "back pay". Both are good men. Both knowingly broke the law. Which one would you have me turn away from?

Most of us have gotten goods and services that were cheaper because of undocumented workers. We didn't know it perhaps, but many of us did, and all of us should have. Like when we bought those grapes at the store or that gallon of milk, (the dairy industry is rife with undocumented workers, as of course is all farming). How much money was made in the stock market because of higher profits caused in some part by lower wages? And yes, some people have lost jobs because of undocumented workers. Aren't we guilty Mick? Just how much guilt do we really want to know about here?

"As an American, I understand and support the need for controlled immigration." NMRod

The largest group of people who are opposed to controlled immigration are those demanding no reform, just enforcement. What we have now is the status quo, which in no way can be characterized as controlled anything.

Anyone who thinks "enforcement only" will work is, in my humble opinion, greatly mistaken.
Reform that works should be the goal. Reform that allows for the legal influx of workers as they are needed and the ability to earn a way toward legal status of some kind for those already here, is what is needed.
Enforcement is only a part of this. By itself it will not work unless we take such strident measures as to deny the humanity of others in the name of "the rule of law".
Don
The Irish, German and Italian immigrants of the past certainly experienced prejudice that was uncalled for and unjust. I was only referring to Federal laws passed to ban their entry. Other than recent law I am aware no other ethnic group that was singled out except for the Chinese. For instance we have a world lottery for green cards but Mexico is excluded from participating and therefore, practically speaking, no low skilled, or low educated Mexican citizen can possibly obtain legal entry. Only people with professional status can gain entry through any other visa programs. Sponsorship is available but cannot come close to meeting the demand for jobs and employment. Temporary visa programs are also so severely limited in the numbers they would allow that demand continues to outstrip legal supply. Pure and simple.
The current system cannot accommodate the need. Since we continue to refuse to change it we are essentially co-conspirators in the problem. To merely blame the poor man for finding work here illegally when we are in control of the system that make this the only way they can do so, is just wrong.
We can change this and fix it. No Hispanic man or woman needing work can do it. All they can do is try to feed their children in the only manner we allow for them to do so. I refuse to condemn anyone found in their position. The fact that someone can cite the law and our right as a nation to enact such laws is not germane.

To my knowledge our immigration laws were found to be racially biased back in the sixties, and they were changed, but not in a manner so as to fix the problems. The changes were cosmetic for the most part and kept the status quo system intact. That system has, since the twentieth century at least, had racial and ethnic bias' built into it. Ergo it was found to be wrong, it just wasn't fixed. Perhaps James could shed more light on this.

Unfortunately , I see as much racism , in fact more coming from the left then the right . Simple fact is if was Canada no one would have a problem of saying wait a second , no more of this , people from Mexico want to come here too . Mick Sheldon

Mick
You asked for some history on immigration and how our policies have changed. I quoted you above to refer to one of those changes. The history of Canada and immigration is that until recently you did not need a visa or a passport in order to come here from our northern neighbor. They just came through one of the many ports of entry and left when you wanted to. Many stayed and started businesses and/or bought homes. They were regarded as undocumented but, unless they committed some real crime, no one cared really.
Mexico, and our other southern neighbors have been another matter entirely. If anyone who was poor came from Mexico they had to do so illegally through the desert. As long as they were just picking grapes no one cared much. It has only been since mainly poor uneducated Hispanic people have been coming and doing more than working at migrant farm jobs that this has become an issue. Even in the recent past when no one cared much about "Mexicans" coming over the border, they were treated differently than a Canadian probably because language and skin color made them more obvious.
I do not think it is fair to say people would rise up against Canadians in favor of Mexicans. There really is no way for those who have crossed our borders in the past twenty years to have done so legally. None. We have never allowed for our need for their labor. The fact that they were undocumented helped farmers pay them less and gave us cheaper food. We wanted them to come here illegally. (That is just one of the reasons why it is wrong for us to demand that they go back now.)
To my knowledge the only legal method we have ever had for Mexican labor was the Bracero program instituted during WWII. This program allowed for farm workers to come here but put them in camps and then told them what farms they were to work for and what wage they would get paid. It was not repealed until the mid 1960's, obviously long after the war, because it lowered wages for farmers who wanted cheaper labor. It was only when Cesar Chavez protested this program that it was finally done away with.
We needed their labor for this work back then and still do, but no one is going to have much of a chance to get even the farm labor portion of a comprehensive reform bill through. It isn't because someone is accusing them of unchristian like behavior though. That is not what is standing in the way.
Mick all of these argument have been aired before I would ask you to look up this history. Find out how we never used to ask for people from Europe to apply for visa's but processed them here, once they arrived, yet how we never did the same for any citizens from Mexico. There is no west coast or Texas equivalent of Ellis Island that i know of.
My grandfather came here from Germany in 1900 at the age of five. His parents never applied for a Visa. By 1914 he was in the army and eventually went to Europe to fight against his German brothers. The only immigrants we have ever feared and abused in mass, like we are now, were either Hispanic or Chinese. If there is no racial reasoning behind our immigration policies why is this true?

Mick
Current trends toward securing the border are fine. Increasing them is fine.
Providing for labor to move as business needs demand it is fine. To do what we can to protect current American jobs is fine.

Those who have just worked hard and not committed crimes other than their crossing the border should be allowed some way to achieve some kind of legal status.
That is necessary.
Not because I am concerned for Mexicans but because any other option creates paths for hatred, fear and abuse. It will destroy our character and erode our standing in the world.
It is also necessary as it is the only way we can pay the price for our own negligence and mistakes like NAFTA. Some people have already paid and more are going to. For us to opt out of our doing so is not justice. It is just as important that we pay up like responsible adults as it would be for anyone who did wrong to bear the rightful consequences of their actions. The undocumented may have to pay more but they have already paid much for their infraction of our laws.
In the end we will all benefit if we do so.
So no Amnesty for US citizens either.

Marsha
Could not agree more. I forgot to include that we are also responsible for NAFTA. As a nation we have made so much money out of this from trade and farming to cheap labor. Still many average Americans seem to think they are the only victims. Once again all anger against the undocumented is a "little" misplaced and unwarranted.

Mick
I am just trying to get people to think. Much of the anti sentiment is just fear. I do not mean to minimize it but that is what it is.
Immigration has always caused these fears, yet time and again history has shown that the fear is groundless.
I am sure there will be many who will give examples of real life situations that are logical to fear but that is called life.
I live with immigration daily. I have seen may bad things first hand. I know of the conditions along the borders. I sympathize with all those who have been hurt. In the end I have to tell you those who are here from foreign lands are in the balance in far more precarious conditions.
I still think we caused this. Not just big business or our government. We, you and I caused this by our inaction. We should have been more active and watchful of our governments inaction since the mid eighties. To now blame poor people for our lack of action is just scapegoating in the name of justice.
Now we have a situation that is serious and demands attention, but knee jerking, fearful and hateful reactions are not going to solve this. No matter how hard we make conditions here, they will always be worse in the countries where immigrants come from. All attempts to persecute these people out of the country end with our becoming something we should fear. These moves will hurt us spiritually, economically and politically.