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Atmaandrew
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4 years ago
in Holy scriptures… yeah right !! ?? on Forever Expanding Awareness in Liberation
Interesting article and so was you article on time.
If you are referring to A.C. Bhaktivedanta's version of the Bhagavad Gita, then I have to agree with you. I take issue with a lot of what he says too. However, I have found with other transltions that the Gita is a very beautiful and divinely inspired text with a lot of depth.
And there are a lot of other 'Holy Scriptures' that are wonderful and direct. I've spent many delightful hours reading them - it's just a matter of finding the good ones. I'll email one that you might appreciate. I hope you don't mind me sending it to you, but it is one of my favourites and I'd like to share it. :-)
If you are referring to A.C. Bhaktivedanta's version of the Bhagavad Gita, then I have to agree with you. I take issue with a lot of what he says too. However, I have found with other transltions that the Gita is a very beautiful and divinely inspired text with a lot of depth.
And there are a lot of other 'Holy Scriptures' that are wonderful and direct. I've spent many delightful hours reading them - it's just a matter of finding the good ones. I'll email one that you might appreciate. I hope you don't mind me sending it to you, but it is one of my favourites and I'd like to share it. :-)
4 years ago
in Between two worlds on Forever Expanding Awareness in Liberation
So are there two ‘I’s? Are you the silent still ‘I’ or are you the ‘I’ engaged in the activity world? If you say you are both, then how do you reconcile this duality?
With love,
Andrew.
With love,
Andrew.
4 years ago
in The inevitable death of God on Forever Expanding Awareness in Liberation
Hi J,
I re-read you post and I agree with most of what you say too! I just felt some emotive element when I read it first - about killing God and letting him rot in hell. When I was learning about these concepts I found pep talks frustrating - like I had to make a big effort somehow - step up to the challenge and fight etc, but really it was quiet inquiry and understanding that worked for me. Sure it was a challenge and a fight, but that wasn't the focus. The focus is not a war cry, but simply to learn what a concept is.
>So neither should we personify that which we call “God” in discussing the fact that “It” has been attempting to reach into your awareness since the beginning of time. It is nothing personal. Yet the experience of it is deeply intimate.
I disagree with this because you are referring to the impersonal Absolute and denying the valid personal aspect. The impersonal does not move, or attempt to reach us. As it has no qualities or manifest capacity, it just can't do anything. It isn't even anything!
The intelligence, wisdom, peace, feelings of intimacy etc, all arise from contact with the impersonal, but they are relative and personal qualities. This personal aspect is where all the joy and evolution is. And the personal can and does manifest as a personal God - like Lord Shiva, Jesus Christ, Mother Divine. These aspects of the whole can bless us with the intelligence and grace to evolve. They literally govern all of creation.
So my point is that even a concept of a personal God, like Lord Shiva, is to be embraced. But aspirants should be encouraged to either deepen and refine their love for the deity or to look to whom the concept appears. One path is feminine and one is masculine and each aspirant should follow the one they find most suitable. This is Ramana Maharshi's view (yes, I'm a big fan of him :-) ). So devotion to a concept of God is fine, and with increased refinement its truth will reveal itself in time. I guess this is where I perceived some imbalance in your post - accepting the impersonal absolute while killing a personal God. I feel both paths are valid. Many aspirants worship God with no knowledge of the absolute side of life. This is fine because when their devotion matures the absolute will become apparent.
Ultimately, all life is nothing more than a concept, a non-existent super-imposition, and so there is no God and no-one to know that! When we accept the concept that we exist as an individual and that the world exists, then we can accept the concept of a personal God.
>There is a still, calm centre within all of us that is That which we refer to as God, and it is deeply Peaceful.
In my view, this is the path toward God, but is not God proper. There are plenty of people who say that Self-Realisation is God-Realisation. I don’t see it this way. Self-Realisation is more or less a state of glorified detachment. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi calls this state Cosmic Consciousness and he also calls it ‘enlightened ignorance’ because the person is basically the same, except they experience unbounded awareness 24/7. It is not a state of happiness – in fact the person can still experience depression, only they witness it. They see themselves as separate from activity and are thus free from suffering. This is all Buddha taught – freedom from suffering.
God-Realisation is when the heart and the senses have been developed to include the infinite values of relative life. They perceive the finest levels of creation and experience the heart overflowing with love and devotion. So here is the fullness of the absolute and the fullness of the relative. A person in God Consciousness is truly a saint and extremely rare in today’s world. But even in GC a level of separation still remains. Beyond GC is Unity Consciousness (also called Brahman Consciousness) whereby only the Self is perceived, and though the Self may manifest in various forms, it is all directly experienced as being infinite and unbounded. At this extremely high level of evolution one can create and destroy universes, as all is the Self. And one can honestly say I AM GOD. And there is no fear for there is no separation.
Nisargadatta gives a vague analogy of this. Someone asked him what is beyond self-awareness. He said in the beginning it’s like being in a jungle full of tigers. Initial enlightenment you are in a cage in the jungle. The next level you are in the jungle and the tigers are in the cage. After that you ride the tigers fearlessly through the jungle!
I could go on and on about this because it is so fascinating, but I think that is enough for now. Keep posting, Jonathan. I like what you say and enjoy the food for thought! :-)
Peace,
Andrew.
I re-read you post and I agree with most of what you say too! I just felt some emotive element when I read it first - about killing God and letting him rot in hell. When I was learning about these concepts I found pep talks frustrating - like I had to make a big effort somehow - step up to the challenge and fight etc, but really it was quiet inquiry and understanding that worked for me. Sure it was a challenge and a fight, but that wasn't the focus. The focus is not a war cry, but simply to learn what a concept is.
>So neither should we personify that which we call “God” in discussing the fact that “It” has been attempting to reach into your awareness since the beginning of time. It is nothing personal. Yet the experience of it is deeply intimate.
I disagree with this because you are referring to the impersonal Absolute and denying the valid personal aspect. The impersonal does not move, or attempt to reach us. As it has no qualities or manifest capacity, it just can't do anything. It isn't even anything!
The intelligence, wisdom, peace, feelings of intimacy etc, all arise from contact with the impersonal, but they are relative and personal qualities. This personal aspect is where all the joy and evolution is. And the personal can and does manifest as a personal God - like Lord Shiva, Jesus Christ, Mother Divine. These aspects of the whole can bless us with the intelligence and grace to evolve. They literally govern all of creation.
So my point is that even a concept of a personal God, like Lord Shiva, is to be embraced. But aspirants should be encouraged to either deepen and refine their love for the deity or to look to whom the concept appears. One path is feminine and one is masculine and each aspirant should follow the one they find most suitable. This is Ramana Maharshi's view (yes, I'm a big fan of him :-) ). So devotion to a concept of God is fine, and with increased refinement its truth will reveal itself in time. I guess this is where I perceived some imbalance in your post - accepting the impersonal absolute while killing a personal God. I feel both paths are valid. Many aspirants worship God with no knowledge of the absolute side of life. This is fine because when their devotion matures the absolute will become apparent.
Ultimately, all life is nothing more than a concept, a non-existent super-imposition, and so there is no God and no-one to know that! When we accept the concept that we exist as an individual and that the world exists, then we can accept the concept of a personal God.
>There is a still, calm centre within all of us that is That which we refer to as God, and it is deeply Peaceful.
In my view, this is the path toward God, but is not God proper. There are plenty of people who say that Self-Realisation is God-Realisation. I don’t see it this way. Self-Realisation is more or less a state of glorified detachment. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi calls this state Cosmic Consciousness and he also calls it ‘enlightened ignorance’ because the person is basically the same, except they experience unbounded awareness 24/7. It is not a state of happiness – in fact the person can still experience depression, only they witness it. They see themselves as separate from activity and are thus free from suffering. This is all Buddha taught – freedom from suffering.
God-Realisation is when the heart and the senses have been developed to include the infinite values of relative life. They perceive the finest levels of creation and experience the heart overflowing with love and devotion. So here is the fullness of the absolute and the fullness of the relative. A person in God Consciousness is truly a saint and extremely rare in today’s world. But even in GC a level of separation still remains. Beyond GC is Unity Consciousness (also called Brahman Consciousness) whereby only the Self is perceived, and though the Self may manifest in various forms, it is all directly experienced as being infinite and unbounded. At this extremely high level of evolution one can create and destroy universes, as all is the Self. And one can honestly say I AM GOD. And there is no fear for there is no separation.
Nisargadatta gives a vague analogy of this. Someone asked him what is beyond self-awareness. He said in the beginning it’s like being in a jungle full of tigers. Initial enlightenment you are in a cage in the jungle. The next level you are in the jungle and the tigers are in the cage. After that you ride the tigers fearlessly through the jungle!
I could go on and on about this because it is so fascinating, but I think that is enough for now. Keep posting, Jonathan. I like what you say and enjoy the food for thought! :-)
Peace,
Andrew.
4 years ago
in The inevitable death of God on Forever Expanding Awareness in Liberation
Hi J,
I feel your comments about God are a little imbalanced. According to Ramana Maharshi, God is as real as you and me. While we know ourselves as that vast impersonal 'I'-less spaciousness, it is also true that the world does appear. We can easily see that all life is unreal, yet it still appears. Like an oasis, when we know its reality, it doesn't disappear. So we can say that all manifest life is neither real nor unreal - in Vedic terms this is called 'mithya'.
This life that appears is entirely personal. Every form has a name and is in relationship with all other forms. It is all starts with the false 'I' - the 'I' that has no legitimacy - but nevertheless its apparent creation is filled with purpose and meaning - for the experience of more and more love and joy. We can declare that the feminine is a false concept and take a staunch masculine position denying the existence of a personal God, and while this is a true position from one angle - it is also a miserable position. A personal God is the manifest side of creation - without which the masculine cannot be known.
Devotion to a personal God purifies and refines the mind and bring all kinds of blessings to all creation. A personal God, like a loving mother, is so kind and humane that adoration and worship of her is suitable for all people at all times.
To deny her is to cut yourself off from her blessings. It is like realising your own eternal reality - that you were never born and will not die - and going and telling your natural mother that you are not her son. Such a painful and unloving statement need never be spoken, despite its truth.
So we know to ourselves as the Truth and play sweetly in this world without confusing others or creating disharmony. As the Bhagavad Gita says "Those who know the whole should not confuse those who know only the part", and the wise should not confuse the ignorant.
I have seen many teachers who do not honour the feminine. Invariably, they have no love in their life. When we love and respect the feminine, her heart will overflow with love for us and she will yield to us and say “How may I serve you?” Here the authority and dominion of the male and the love and joy and sweetness of the female are established in their highest values where they complement each other. In their perfect union they both find fulfilment.
Personally, I feel that masculine path of knowledge is an aggressive and even ruthless path. But it is very effective is cutting truth from ignorance. I recommend the path because understanding is very important. However, the consequence of this path seems to be anger, pride and emotional denial. So it needs to be taught with compassion and patience.
My attitude to all this is to enjoy the silence of Being and the silent authority that it brings. And then to take that silence and engage fully in life, honouring the feminine and creating fullness and love for all.
MAY GOD BLESS ALL BEINGS WITH PEACE AND LOVE!
Love,
Andrew.
I feel your comments about God are a little imbalanced. According to Ramana Maharshi, God is as real as you and me. While we know ourselves as that vast impersonal 'I'-less spaciousness, it is also true that the world does appear. We can easily see that all life is unreal, yet it still appears. Like an oasis, when we know its reality, it doesn't disappear. So we can say that all manifest life is neither real nor unreal - in Vedic terms this is called 'mithya'.
This life that appears is entirely personal. Every form has a name and is in relationship with all other forms. It is all starts with the false 'I' - the 'I' that has no legitimacy - but nevertheless its apparent creation is filled with purpose and meaning - for the experience of more and more love and joy. We can declare that the feminine is a false concept and take a staunch masculine position denying the existence of a personal God, and while this is a true position from one angle - it is also a miserable position. A personal God is the manifest side of creation - without which the masculine cannot be known.
Devotion to a personal God purifies and refines the mind and bring all kinds of blessings to all creation. A personal God, like a loving mother, is so kind and humane that adoration and worship of her is suitable for all people at all times.
To deny her is to cut yourself off from her blessings. It is like realising your own eternal reality - that you were never born and will not die - and going and telling your natural mother that you are not her son. Such a painful and unloving statement need never be spoken, despite its truth.
So we know to ourselves as the Truth and play sweetly in this world without confusing others or creating disharmony. As the Bhagavad Gita says "Those who know the whole should not confuse those who know only the part", and the wise should not confuse the ignorant.
I have seen many teachers who do not honour the feminine. Invariably, they have no love in their life. When we love and respect the feminine, her heart will overflow with love for us and she will yield to us and say “How may I serve you?” Here the authority and dominion of the male and the love and joy and sweetness of the female are established in their highest values where they complement each other. In their perfect union they both find fulfilment.
Personally, I feel that masculine path of knowledge is an aggressive and even ruthless path. But it is very effective is cutting truth from ignorance. I recommend the path because understanding is very important. However, the consequence of this path seems to be anger, pride and emotional denial. So it needs to be taught with compassion and patience.
My attitude to all this is to enjoy the silence of Being and the silent authority that it brings. And then to take that silence and engage fully in life, honouring the feminine and creating fullness and love for all.
MAY GOD BLESS ALL BEINGS WITH PEACE AND LOVE!
Love,
Andrew.
