Disqus - Latest Comments for ninjaforge

Re: Nooku Server loses 40% weight

Daniel Chapman — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 19:02:49 -0000

Thanks for the reply Andrew.

I am not Peter Russell, nor am I anything more than a single, independent member of the community.

Something you told PR a year ago has absolutely no relevance or meaning to me as I have no knowledge of it.

All I have seen lately as the Joomla Position is that developers are lazy (Elin multiple times) volunteers are unprofessional (Ron) and those who don't like being called unprofessional are uninterested in intelligent conversation and whining. (Ron again) also that bugs won't get fixed until people get paid (Sam on the forums recently).

Similar to Amy I too have an open ticket, and I even handed you the code in the discussion where you asked me to post on the dev forums.

Just about everyone I speak to in the various fringe groups around Joomla has had some sort of experience that makes them feel unwelcome and unwanted when coming into the main project areas.

Not least of all because we try to contribute and our patches and tickets languish for months with no response or feedback.

This is the main reason why most of us have given up contributing to the core. Because we feel like no matter how hard we try to, it won't affect anything.

So instead we choose to contribute where it is appreciated, and accepted.

If the Joomla position is different that which is being publicly stated as above, and we are all actually welcome, then someone needs to take the barb wire fences down make the real position known and actually invite people over.

We have all already taken the initiative and gone to the project at least once, some of us many times. But we got burnt. Now you expect us to put ourselves over the fire again with no guarantees that what we offer will be accepted or even responded to.

I could certainly post on the dev list "where do we start?" but I already know the answer to that, because all of us have started already.

We are all already contributing somewhere that we enjoy doing so.

I don't enjoy visiting the Project sites much these days. Anything I say seems to end up in a fight and I get told I am one of the "usual suspects" (great PR right there) and thus should be ignored and ridiculed regardless of if my points have any merit.

There may not be an official policy that "the project" needs to block contributions, but there is a definite perception, based usually on personal experiences that only a select few are actually valued at all in the project.

If you want willing volunteers, then more needs to be done to break down this perception and stop people having these experiences than just commenting on a blog in a place where people actually do enjoy contributing and are actually appreciated and encouraged.

Or in simple terms: We are having more than enough fun soccer where we are. Whenever we have tried to play soccer at your place in the past we got bullied and humiliated.

You need to give us an invitation and a better reason than just proving (to who exactly?) that we are "passionate about contributing to Soccer" to want to give up the no-trouble, appreciated and encouraged fun we are having and risk going through all that pain and humiliation again.

That ball is well and truly in the projects court. Don't try to make us look like the bad guys here.

Re: Nooku Server loses 40% weight

Daniel Chapman — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:51:13 -0000

hmm I can't reply to your post directly, so I am replying to mine Andrew.

I am not a member of the team that build Nooku, and I am but a single member of the community. Taking what I, one person, say 'you are free to grab it at any time' and then extrapolating 'the community doesn't have an interest in...' out of it is a bit extreme.

If you are interested in collaborating, the common practice in the Nooku community is to start a thread on the discussion group asking for collaborators or offering to collaborate.

Given that most of us still use Joomla for a lot of stuff and have a lot of Joomla clients, I am sure a thread from someone in the PLT asking for some people to help migrate back improvements to Joomla Core would be well received. I would sign up if I knew that the work would be welcomed.

Asking here on blog comments if there is interest from our end, without actually stating whether or not there is interest from the Joomla end, then taking any reply as 'the community doesn't have an interest in...' feels like you are baiting for negative comments.

I am sure that is not what you are doing, so if you really do want some collaboration, you should do like you advised me when I complained about 1.6 -> hop on the mailing list, say Joomla core is interested in collaborating and ask for some volunteers.

I am sure plenty of people will put their hand up. It would benefit us all greatly to have a better Joomla core so there should be few objections.

Re: Login

Daniel Chapman — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 09:11:32 -0000

Ron, are you a professional in leadership?

If not perhaps you should be brave enough to stick to your ideals and stand down from any volunteer positions of leadership in Joomla and let in someone who is a professional leader.

Re: Nooku Server loses 40% weight

Daniel Chapman — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:09:00 -0000

I noted this below too, so sorry for the repeats.

Nooku FW and Nooku Server are all GPL, and publicly available for download. So the answer to your burning question is a resounding yes, any or all of it can be rolled back into the core at any time.

Anyone could do it right now if they liked and release Joomla 1.5.24 - Nooku Edition tomorrow.

Re: The Dark Side of Nooku Framework

Daniel Chapman — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:59:52 -0000

We have already encountered such issues, and the working solution is generally that when installing a new extension, if the included framework is older, nothing changes, if the included framework is a newer version than the one already installed, then it installs over the top.

While it is not necessarily BC, that doesn't mean that every version of Nooku breaks the previous one, just that there are lots of features added all the time, so something developed on a newer version probably won't work on an older version. But something developed on an older version will often keep working on a newer version.

This is especially true if you use a lot of the Nooku Automagic, because they automatically change to match the new version. It's only if you do a lot of overrides that you need to make large changes.

This will also become a lot less of a problem once there is a stable version of Nooku out. This is bleeding edge work at the moment, and there are risks associated with that.

However you are right that the time and money we save overall, is far greater than the time it costs to deal with those issues. It's not perfect, and may never be, but the advantages of that imperfection outweigh the disadvantages.

One good thing about it though is that it requires you to stay on your toes and keep developing your products. I do not recommend Nooku FW for people who like to fire and forget extensions, for this reason, or they will find it crops up a lot for them.

It has been said several times in the main Joomla camp that developers are avoiding J1.6 because they are lazy or don't like change. But I have found that developers by and large embrace change when it is an improvement.

Every new version of Nooku we work with, adds good features, and improves existing ones, and whenever we need to re-factor code, it ends up better than it was before, which is very satisfying.

That sort of change is easily accepted. Often more so than just staying the same.

If the changes however were pointless or added little, then it would painful to work with Nooku, as dealing with those sorts of changes feels like you are just treading water, expending energy just to stay afloat but without progressing at all.

Lucky for us it isn't.

Re: Nooku Server loses 40% weight

Daniel Chapman — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 02:48:12 -0000

All the code is GPL and publicly available, so it can be added back to the J! core at any time by anyone with commit access to said core.

Isn't that collaboration enough?

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:57:17 -0000

As I also said, the vast majority of the problems are not directly because our extensions are "problematic".

I do the support every day. Please don't pretend to tell me what the problems my customers have are.

I didn't say it was their fault as if there was some sort of blame to be laid. I said there are many different factors and causes for problems, 99% of which are out of our control, and cannot be foreseen beforehand.

You misinterpreted and twisted my initial statement to imply we delivered poor quality "problematic" extensions. Please take the step back yourself until you know what you are talking about.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:41:12 -0000

Obviously you have never produced any software.

People don't configure the extension properly, misunderstand, have poorly configured servers, have conflicting extensions installed, have an artiseer template installed, or any number of other things that aren't necessarily related to "problematic extensions". (though naturally there will always be a few bugs)

It is almost impossible to write even a simple extension and have it work 100% of time out of the box on every single system in the world.

What is laughable is talking about something you have absolutely no knowledge or experience in as if you were an expert. Please produce several complex extensions that are 100% problem free and then you can come back and judge others.

We try to provide all our customers with the best support we can, rather than just ignore simple questions or say "search Google" as some devs do.

As a result, we work to get every problem on our forum solved even if we didn't cause it. That is why our work load grew. If we are terrible developers because we try to provide good support, then what on earth do you see as a good developer?

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 19:22:14 -0000

Ahh so magic is to blame. I knew it.

Therefore there is no need to compensate people for their time. In fact, you are right. developers and artists, and musicians have no right at all to expect to receive a fair compensation from their work, because it can just be duplicated!

Every one of them should work for free producing things for you to enjoy and use.

And back to your original argument, if they don't like it, then they just don't have to do it!

That is such a productive mentality. Let's all live like that and see how much work gets done, and how many artworks and songs get produced.

Also, since some developers/musicians may produce bad works, or not provide money back guarantees, it is fair game to steal everyone's work.

To take your wizard analogy, it is probably more accurate to describe it as this:

The wizard, wanting to help his community slaved away in his lab producing a spell that the peasants could use to duplicate their crops, giving them more food, and duplicate their goods, giving them better lives.

Then he brought the spell out for sale. Because he had invested heavily in the wand's production, and knowing it would provide significant value to people, he felt he should get fair compensation for his efforts.

In return, the first peasant to see the spell, asked to try it out. The first thing the peasant did was cast the spell on the wizard's spell book, creating another one. He then walked away duplicating more books and giving them to everyone for free, meaning that the wizard could not recover the time or energy he invested into the wand's creation.

The result: The community felt great that they got this freebie, but why would the wizard ever want to write another spell for the community? They would miss out on any future productions from the wizard, or he would make things difficult (think DRM) to try to protect his investments.

I am tired of your self justifying logic. Obviously some people seek only to benefit from the work of others without returning any fair compensation.

If it is not stealing. Then why are there dozens, if not hundreds of laws based around protecting intellectual property?

No matter how much you justify it, the warez people would have nothing without the work of others. They get value added to their lives by other people's work, but arguably give nothing of value back. You can pull up the occasional person who has benefitted, but in the whole the majority do not.

As for what has been stolen from me, fair compensation for adding value to other people's lives. Do I not deserve something back for making someone's life better at significant personal expense of my own?

Answering no to this question indicates that someone is simply a parasite who prefers to gain from the work of others without contributing fair compensation to those who make their life better.

Imagine your life if none of the art, music or software had been created.

If everyone adopted this "magic wand copy the cow I can keep it for free" philosophy then you would have far, far less of it.

I am a big open source advocate, I like and use Open Source when people contribute back. Whether it is via money, assistance, bug finding, patches, anything that helps make the community stronger overall.

Warez is just leeching. They are mostly parasites draining from the work of others, but providing nothing back.

You can try your word games, and shifting your position to avoid direct counter arguments as much as you like, but parasites are still parasites. Giving nothing back when receiving the benefit's of another person's work is still "giving nothing back" no matter which way you look at it.

Please enjoy your copied cow, but don't you dare complain when the next cow is skinny, or there is no next cow, because the peasants all stopped growing them.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 08:11:12 -0000

p.s. I am not calling you specifically a rapist, leech or parasite, just saying that those people who do nothing but take from a community without returning anything are.

Just wanted that clear.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 07:57:27 -0000

Not sure how throwing away got into this?

From the webster dictionary:

1 a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully <stole a="" car=""> b : to take away by force or unjust means <they've stolen="" our="" liberty=""> c : to take surreptitiously or without permission <steal a="" kiss=""> d : to appropriate to oneself or beyond one's proper share : make oneself the focus of <steal the="" show="">

a, b and c all fit the category of warez.

a - to take without right
b - to take by unjust means
c - to take without permission

Attempting to redefine a word doesn't absolve one of a crime.

What you are saying then is that because people steal other's code, all developers should stop developing? Or at least stop doing it as their work if they want to stop their code being stolen.

In which case all the extensions, applications and music etc. that are currently being warezed would disappear (or at least cease to progress) so no one would have anything.

It's a pretty lame excuse - "If you don't want me to steal it, then don't make it" as if it is the developers fault that people take their code illegally. Like those people have no need to act with any morality as soon as a developer creates something.

It's like the rapist blaming the victim for looking attractive, as if they couldn't possibly have controlled themselves and done the right thing.

I can list enough times that my work has been stolen to show that I am affected by this practice, whereas the fact that someone who has produced nothing that has been stolen, and has even benefitted from taking the work of others, is commenting on something that not only does not affect them negatively, but benefits them, their opinions on the matter carry no weight at all because they are inappropriately biased.

To use the rape case again, it's like a rapist saying "oh but I don't have any lasting trauma from raping her so she just needs to get over it and move on. Being raped is no big deal. She just needs to not go out of the house in future in stop it happening again."

Also, just because people don't put on copy protection doesn't mean that they want you to take things. If I leave my door unlocked, it doesn't mean I want you to empty my house, nor does it mean that if you do empty my house you are not guilty because the door was unlocked.

Incidentally, all my products are GPL and carry no copy protection. So I personally accept the fact that people will share my work, even if I don't want them to. I do however have no problem with someone who takes and improves my code and redistributes it. I have hired two people did that in fact.

What I don't like are the leeches (if you don't like the word thieves) who simply take and take without contributing anything back. These are the people who are a blight on the community, the system, and the world. People who feel that satiating their own desires is more important than any other person's well being.

If everyone was like those people then society would collapse, and we would be left with a lawless warzone, as nothing would be produced, it would simply be stolen from others until there was nothing left.

No matter how much they try to justify it, no matter how many word games, they try to play, no matter how they try to pass the blame, anyone who takes constantly from a community without contributing back is simply a parasite.

From Webster:

Parasite: something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:22:29 -0000

Except love is them giving to you, warez is taking?

Completely opposite....

Seriously, please find me a developer who truly thinks warez is a good thing?

No one I have ever seen defending it is ever someone who's work is being stolen, it's always the people stealing who try to defend it. People who feel they have some sort of "right" to take other people's work without compensating them for it. But at the same time people who would flat out refuse to do work for someone else without compensation.

Please abtop, list all the times you have had your work stolen by others?

Please list all the times you have given away months of your work for no compensation?

I bet you can't do either. Which makes you completely unqualified to comment on this topic.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:11:56 -0000

That's ok. You can do documentation instead, and then I will pay for people who have questions about the docs.

If support really is such a lucrative business then I can't see why you would not want to get in on this as fast as you could?

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 21:03:16 -0000

you need to make differentiation between GPL and non GPL. Commercial doesn't equal non-GPL.

Commercial works get pirated, regardless of license, because people want other people's work for free.

I am not trying to stop it btw. I am just tired of people not calling a spade a spade.

No matter how you try to justify it, what the business decisions were, warez is still stealing.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 20:57:46 -0000

Hey abtop, I am still waiting for you to put our money where your mouth is and come work for me for free.

If support is such a lucrative income stream then you should become very rich very quickly with us!

Why are you waiting? Act now!

You can develop for free and I will pay you for support work.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:17:22 -0000

Like I said, for big frameworks like an OS or DB, it works because you can have a couple of dozen developers.

But for a small shop it doesn't because of the need to write bad code to stay in business.

Also if your survival depends upon support, then the amount of time you spend developing drops dramatically. Because if you make money from development and want to get paid for 8 hours work, you develop for 8 hours, making a better extension.

But if you make money from support, then if you want 8 hours pay you spend 8 hours fixing individual websites, and then development is only done in your "spare" time. Meaning that development progresses far slower because you are looking for support work not development work.

Obviously abtop you aren't a developer. I have never met a developer who enjoyed support work more than development, or thought that making money off support was a better way to produce good products than making money off development.

It is much easier to tell other people to do the dirty work and give you their hard work for free than it is to do it yourself.

I would love to see some examples of how you contribute to the community giving away your hard work to others.

Do you expect to be paid for every hour you work? I bet you do. If you don't then I have lots of support and even development work that needs to be done.

If you come work for me then I will even give away all your development extensions for free, and will pay you only when they need support.

When can you start?

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 11:44:12 -0000

I highly doubt several hundred.

Article rotators generally sell for $25 or less. So unless you are trying out 8 or 10 you won't need much at all.

I agree it would be better if we could deploy demos. In the future I may think about offering encrypted, timebombed (stops working after x days) versions of extensions, but that has problems too. It requires people to install the software that enabled the encrypted extensions to work.

But I also doubt that large numbers of people are turning to warez because they genuinely want to "try before they buy".

As for labor analysis, and charging for support. It doesn't work for small extension shops. For a big OS like Linux, or a DB like MYSQL yes it works, it could probably even work for Joomla itself. But not for an extension shop. Why?

Because to stay in business you need to write bad code. The better your software is, the less people need support and the less money you make.

Giving free support and charging for products encourages good coding, as you want to do a little support as possible.

Support is also the absolute least fun part of being a developer. You are basically telling us to give away houses and try to make our money cleaning the toilets and doing the gardening.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 10:09:01 -0000

Thanks for understanding JJ. :-)

Dr Who,

Perhaps we both misunderstood each other a bit.

I agree that perhaps most warez people aren't maliciously taking other's code just to punish them, though some seem too from comments I have seen here and elsewhere,

The point though isn't always if they haven't got money, then we aren't losing any. The point is that we developers are working hard to provide code for our members and supporters. Assuming you can have something for free just because you have no money doesn't work anywhere else.

"Hey car salesman, I have no cash but I really want a Porsche. So hand it over"

You can say yes, one copy of the extension doesn't cost many any more to make unlike the car, but there are plenty of warez people out there who have money, they just choose not to spend on supporting us.

We had a member post our entire set of extensions in one package once about a year ago. That month and from then on our sales were down 25%. I have spoken to other developers who experienced similar drops once their extensions were widely available on warez sites, so warez has a very real and tangible effect on our bottom line.

That 25% drop meant that we could no longer afford to keep sponsoring Joomla Days as we had been doing up to that point. It also meant that our developers had to get a little bit less salary in their hands. So yes is it taking food directly off our plates.

As for demo vs money back. I agree that the ability to fully try an extension would be nice, but you can't do that without encrypting the extensions. If we made it optional to buy the extensions if you liked them after trying them we would be out of business that week.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 08:43:05 -0000

Thanks for the interesting feedback Dr Who. Though I disagree with some of your theories.

We tried the whole "make it really cheap and you will get so many people" idea. it was $5 a month for our lowest level, which includes 30+ extensions on unlimited sites. Originally it was $30 for 3 months access.

Our revenue for that membership level dropped over 60%. So we got more people, maybe twice as many. BUT our revenue per user dropped to 1/6 of the original level, so we lost out overall. We are currently trying $10 and still making more per month than at $5. It may even go back to the $30 for 3 at some point.

To top it off, because we had 2x as many new members, we also had 2x as many people with problems. So our workload doubled, and our income dropped to 30% of the previous month.

That super cheap lots of people model doesn't alway work.

Our license is GPL, so the same as the Joomla project. So I am not sure why that is an issue?

As for warez people. yes stopping them is virtually impossible. And while as you say, some of them do it for the challenge, the vast majority of warez users are just leeches trying to get someone else's work for nothing. Yes they may have no money, but just because they have no money doesn't make them entitled to take my work for free. I need to feed my family too, and I am the one working, they are just taking.

Our extensions have far more downloads at wares sites than they do on our site. So people would rather see us starve so they can have free stuff than to support the people who are writing the code they use every day.

We even offer people to give away free memberships if they help us out with things like translating, documentation, testing, finding bugs. So even if they don't have money they can contribute back to help us make things better for everyone. But very few people take us up on it.

Those people that do, are almost always -already- paying customers. They just get an upgrade.

Most warez people would rather steal other people's work for free than help everyone by contributing. Their actions say everything about their motives.

"I can steal or I can help. phht. Let's steal, no way I am going to help someone else for free."

As for hard to put together a graphics team? I have one guy who I paid out of my own pocket. If someone doesn't want to spend money on graphics, or learn how to do it themselves, then they do not become entitled to take my artwork either. I worked for the money to pay him. If someone doesn't have money then get a job, or offer an artist an exchange of labour. You help them, they help you.

But nooo. Stealing is just so much easier. Again it says volumes about the people doing it.

(Incidentally, I have just had an email that apparently the Ninja Files guys didn't realize they were stealing our artwork. Their designer allegedly told them it was a unique image. So we might have our image issues sorted out with them anyway.)

Dr Who, you can try to defend warez guys as much as you like, and I will admit there are people like yourself who just want to try before they buy (By the way, we also offer a money back guarantee for that anyway. If you aren't happy, then you get your $ back, no risk, no loss. ) , but the vast, vast majority of downloaders are leechers and nothing more. Who want someone else's work for nothing.

They have no desire or intention to buy the extensions, or give anything back to the community. The fact that tens of thousands of them download our extensions, but none of them come to offer to support us and only a tiny fraction of that number actually join and pay, is proof of that.

There is no excuse for people who do not contribute anything back. They are a thief plain and simple.

I saw some Warez guys on a forum once arguing about how other warez guys take their cracked/shared work and post it on their sites without giving any credit or money to the original sharer. I couldn't stop laughing at the hypocrisy. They were angry at people stealing their stolen goods. :-D

It was fine for them to take other people's work for free, but not for other people to take theirs for free.

I think that says it all. :-)

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 05:25:09 -0000

Incidentally. The above poster and their sites have absolutely no connection to Ninja Forge or our other sites, despite them using our artwork on our sites.

Re: Joomla Developers Showdown - Begins | Joomla GPS - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 06:32:26 -0000

I'd love to give it a go, but 2 of our devs are on holidays, 1 is sick, and I already have plans for the next few days.

Good luck to those who enter though.

Re: Joomla Suppporters Club | Joomla GPS - brian.teeman.net

Daniel Chapman — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:45:52 -0000

Great idea Brian. I suggested exactly this sort of thing for Mambo as an income generator when I was the VP. Let's hope you have more luck getting yours adopted.

Re: Work-Life Balance in Japan

Daniel Chapman — Tue, 07 Apr 2009 23:43:39 -0000

Ken,

It may not be easy, but it's always possible. I have done something similar at almost every company I ever worked for, and every time people told me "you cant do that here", "that won't work here" and so on.

But I always could, and it always did.

The question is not "if" it is only "how".

I don't want to try it out (I like my current setup) but without even knowing your company I am certain I could have extra ordinary conditions, more free time, more money or both, within 6 months to a year. It's just a matter of finding the right leverage, and the right person to apply it to.

Re: Work-Life Balance in Japan

Daniel Chapman — Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:24:56 -0000

Ken Y-N,

The trick is not to suggest or ask if you can do the improvements, but actually start doing them.

What I did for example was to build a basic application that allowed people to assemble new documents from existing, already proofread sections. It wasn't complete when I showed it to the company but it did enough for them to agree to let me to finish it.

It's easy to say no to a suggestion to improve, but much harder to say no when the solution is right in front of them and ready to go.

So what you could do is learn some php/HTML and build a replacement form in your spare time, or find an online form builder (there are lots) or pick up a good CMS like Joomla or Drupal and find a forms extension for them. (again there are lots).

Re: Work-Life Balance in Japan

Daniel Chapman — Mon, 06 Apr 2009 03:23:18 -0000

I work as a proofreader for a Japanese company (just over 3 years now), and I did a short stint when I first got here with teaching and bar tending.

I don't do any overtime unless the work demands it, which is pretty rare, and if I do do it then I claim it all.

Others in my company though have been known to do 18 hours days, head home to a sleeping family, nap for 2-4 hours, get up and come back at 6:30-8:00 am and do the same thing again nonstop for up to 3 months at a time during our busy season.

On the other hand I know a few of them who actually rely on overtime to support their families, as their budget is based on them doing 40+ hours of overtime a month and not their base salary.

These particular guys are hurting right now because the slowdown has dropped our business, and a lot of non revenue generating departments right now have a no overtime rule to cut costs.

So it's a mixed bag really. I wouldn't get myself all worked up about being forced into slave labor until you actually get a job.

I actually renegotiated my contract recently, because I made some changes to the proof reading process itself and cut my personal workload by over 60%, and several other people's by 20-30%. So I got to cut back to 3 days a week work, and kept the equivalent of my original full time salary.

When I suggested to some other people at my company what I was going to do, they were dead certain that I would never be able to do it. But it went through without a problem.

Sorry that was all a bit rambly, but my advise essentially is:

1. Don't worry about overtime until you get a job, then talk to them about it
2. If your job does require overtime, then see if you can't cut the workload down by increasing the efficiency of your group or yourself.
3.Then if you do increase it, make a big deal about it and use that to leverage yourself at least out of overtime, or possibly in extra free time.

It worked for me despite all the naysayers.