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Re: Prices and Things Organic

mattray — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:04:10 -0000

Mike -- thanks for your thoughtful reply. You guys make a good point about affordability. I really think the difference between us is that i have the view that food (like health care) is a fundamental societal good that should not be left up to the free market alone. If small, local farms need to be subsidized to bring the prices down for the poor, then i say let's do it. The free market is fairly efficient for many things, but eating, breathing, and going to the doctor should not be left up to profiteers exclusively. They need some tweaking so society can be what we all want it to be -- a fully realized society not a hodgepodge of wealth and tragedy.

I don't believe we should have a central government plan for this, I think everything can be solved locally if the resources are there. I do find it interesting that those who can't tolerate a large ominous central government, will tolerate large ominous mega corporations.

Wal-mart is the perfect example. They are able to provide cheap food because of their sources and because of their distribution network. But because they are not local, they often don't have the best interests of their community in mind the way a local business would. You see this in the way they treat their employees and in the way they squeeze out local competitors. it's pretty hard to be a small business owner in a Wal-mart town because you can't compete. That may be the free market at work, but i'm not sure it is the kind of society we want, because it lacks choice, both for the consumer and for the worker.

Re: Prices and Things Organic

mattray — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:26:05 -0000

@ MIke re: your points

1. agreed
2. Likely true, but it shouldn't happen to even one person, should it?
3. The stories go way beyond what I posted earlier. Have you read the Vanity Fair article i posted above? Try this on for size: Monsanto in the dark of night spreads their own genetically modified seeds onto private small family farms. When their patented crops turn up on thos family farms, Monsanto sues the farmers out of business for patent infringement, gobbles up their land, and further cements their monopoly. It's not just crackheads that are victimized, it's ordinary folks. Real people, not stats. Predatory monopolies answer to no one, not even government. IT HAS TO STOP.
4. This is a common argument. "Slave labor is better than starving to death." I don't have a response, I can't purport to know what is in the best interest of someone else. I can only point out what i think is a disgrace, and hope that there is a better way that doesn't involve these mega corporations who, in many cases, don't value human life.
5. Have you ever lived in a poor neighborhood and shopped in the area? In many, if not most, there is a dire lack of fresh produce. Some ghettos have none. ZERO. In Cleveland i used to have to drive almost an hour to get an apple that wasn't rotten. Access to fresh food does not exist in many poor areas. FACT
6. I am not blanketly indicting big business, I am lamenting the monopolies under which we now live. I'm sure you would agree that monopolies are not healthy for the economy. Banking, agribusiness, it is everywhere. It is not good for us. So don't try to twist my arguments and paint me with the broad brush strokes that satisfy your desire to see everything as left and right. it is more complicated than that and you know it.
7. It all has to come back to France, doesn't it. Very sad. Why don't you try meeting some poor people and see how they live. it has nothing to do with France, dude. People are starving RIGHT NOW, not in ten years. Agri-business is not trying to feed the world, they are trying to make money, like any other business. They don't give a shit about you or I or anyone, just their bottom line and their shareholders. END OF STORY.

Re: Prices and Things Organic

mattray — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 15:43:43 -0000

P.S. this Vanity Fair article on Monsanto was last year's must read:

http://www.vanityfair.com/p...

Re: Prices and Things Organic

mattray — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:47:41 -0000

It's actually pretty easy for me to argue that Tyson Chicken (for example) is doing NO good at all. Yes their chicken products are 50 cents or so cheaper by weight than local chicken. But if they went away, there would be a rush by small farmers to fill the void and competition would lower prices. Perhaps not all the way to Tyson levels, but substantially lower.

Tyson pays their workers minimum wage, and the workers last for a year before they get carpal tunnel syndrome from cutting the same chicken parts 8 hours per day. They have been punished and even fired for leaving their stations to use the bathroom. The average poultry worker in Indiana (for example) makes less than 30k and that includes management. The laborers make far less than that. And the birds are often contaminated with salmonella and fed antibiotics which, when consumed by humans, contribute to the mutation and creation of super-bugs that cannot be killed.

Did you know that there are Mexican, Central American, and ex-cons both black and white living in indentured servitude on factory farms throughout the South? The immigrants cannot leave their jobs because they will be deported if they do. And the ex-cons face a life of parole and no job opportunities and choose to sign contracts that keep them virtually enslaved on the farm. Some of the farms even employ prison labor in shady deals to sell cheap produce to local restaurants.

These are real costs that our society just can't bear.

I would encourage you to read up a little here:

http://www.splcenter.org/le...

here:

http://www.hsus.org/farm/re...

and here:
http://www.satodayscatholic...

"Traffickers have been extremely creative in achieving their ends, he said. Notable was a case in which hundreds of farm workers from Mexico and Central America were smuggled over the Arizona border, where they were met by buses with mechanics aboard to ensure speedy repair of any breakdowns on the way to Florida.

In Florida the Ramos brothers, former fruit pickers themselves, moved 700 slave laborers from field to field and state to state for two years. The workers fell victim to the same debt servitude, being charged for their daily rides out to the fields and the tools they used. They slept on concrete floors in labor camps surrounded by barbed wire (placed to keep them in) with locks on the outsides of doors and windows. This, noted Coonan, was a good clue that these laborers were being held against their will.
Other indicators of forced labor are observing domestic help who never leave their employer’s house or German shepherd dogs guarding farm laborers’ quarters, he said."

"In another Florida case, human traffickers recruited crack-addicted men from homeless shelters, keeping them in virtual bondage picking oranges. The men were paid in crack cocaine and beaten the rest of the time to keep them working."

That is just the tip of the iceberg. Is it okay for one human to be in modern day slavery? No it is not. It is not about being a bleeding heart. It is about understanding the basic economic truth that these prices you laud result in death. That is non-negotiable, it is fact. There is nothing radical about saying that. These cases have been reported on 60 Minutes and 20/20 and other news magazines and then simply forgotten. The solution is to enforce the law, end slavery in America, and take away the advantages that these large farms have (with lobbying, forced labor, environmental dumping). They need to be forced out of business so we can have real competition between many small farmers and bring prices down naturally.

Also, Sam, it is vitally important that we as a society, think about our society itself and what it should look like. I am aware that chicken that is 50 cents cheaper can be a big deal to some people. So let's make it 50 cents cheaper without all the horrible social, environmental, and health costs. It can be done.

Re: Prices and Things Organic

mattray — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 13:14:25 -0000

Sam --

You have to ask yourself why the prices are so cheap, and what are the hidden costs not revealed in the monetary prices. For example, is a 99 cent burger really 99 cents when to raise the cattle acres and acres of Brazilian rainforest have been decimated? So poor people are fed in America with food that is killing them, and thousands of miles away poor people lose their homes in the Amazon to big agribusiness. The only reason food costs 99 cents is because someone else is getting hurt. And that someone is usually the very poor people you are trying to defend.

Corn is subsidized so that it can be used in almost every product in your local supermarket. Most people have at least some allergy to corn. And although corn is cheap, it's solely due to artificially suppressed prices. So farmers who would otherwise grow a more healthy product don't, because the government pays them not to. What results is that the supply of fresh vegetables is so low in most places in the US that the price is kept artificially high, thus preventing people from getting a good deal on good food.

Prices do tell us everything. They tell us that government and corporate intervention in the markets skews the playing field, tipping it toward large industry, environmental destruction, and wasteful practices, and away from quality, local produce.

As for the idea that cheap calories are helpful to the poor, that is a gray area. A person can eat 2500 calories of cheap garbage and still be hungry. A person can eat 1500 calories of nutritious food and feel completely satisfied. Likely they are about the same price in dollars, and the social cost of the latter one is far lower.

The solution to the problem is to stop subsidizing corn (syrup) and subsidize vegetables. Or simply give free healthy food to the poor (through food stamps, etc.). It would cost no more than the current costs (hidden and overt) of big agribusiness.

Organic or otherwise, people must have access to affordable food. This we know. But if a dinner of broccoli, white rice, and chicken breast costs just $2.99 to make (it does) then why should we sympathize with those who purchase a Big Mac meal at McD's for the same price? The real issue is access. Without access to clean, fresh food, people are forced choose the garbage that's close by. That is why community gardens are the wave of the future. You see them in all the inner-city neighborhoods of Brooklyn now, because folks want to provide for each other what the free market does not. Cheap, quality eats.

Your post seems to come more from a general dissatisfaction with left-wing idealism. I can agree with you on that -- it is annoying, lazy, and ignorant at worst, and condescending at best. Only action, and hands-on problem solving deal with these issues, not a bunch of whining and wishing. We all have to work to make food healthy and affordable -- organic or otherwise.

But don't let your disdain for those who don't understand basic market forces cloud the fact that basic market forces don't exist in this country. And yes, healthy food is cheap, but people won't buy it if they can't find it.

Obviously everything I'm writing here is something you criticized in your post. However, you provide no details or information to back up your arguments. If you can assure us that we are "full of shit" you better bring the stats, bro. I'm telling you that healthy (not organic) produce is as cheap as McDonald's or Wonder Bread or anything else. I know, because it's what I eat. (I can rarely afford organic, but would def prefer it if it was cheaper).

As for your indictment of advocates for organic and free-range, they are making a personal choice based on information that they have. They are not taking anyone's food away. They are trying to make it easier and cheaper to get quality food, and to do that corporations like Monsanto who are poisoning poor people need to be stopped. If the foodies get off course a little, it shouldn't be forgotten that the rest of us (read you and I) ain't doing shit. So at least someone is fighting the big fish. Whether they are truly sticking up for the little guy is debatable. But they are the people that bring you community gardens and green markets in places like East NY. And no, they are not all white suburban middle class snobs. Many are locals who are fighting on behalf of their neighbors for a better life -- a return to a time when 4 companies didn't control our entire food supply. I wish them luck.

Written with love:)
Looking forward to a face-to-face debate before the next show,
MR