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Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

mama_in_africa — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:23:36 -0000

I will have to disagree and point this one thing out to you, that in N.T. teaching, "elder", "overseer", "bishop" and "pastor" all refer to ONE office in the church. Today we use the word pastor, others could use 'bishop', 'elder', etc., but they are simply different descriptions of the one office, the way that salvation can be described as 'justification', or 'redemption', (salvation), etc.--different terms, to describe different facets of the one idea of salvation.

I'm not disputing the fact that mankind has 'programmed' the local church of the 21st centrury so much that it doesn't resemble what the N.T. describes the local church as in the pastoral epistles, and Acts. But that doesn't give us the right to re-interpret the Scripture as to what the local church is, which is a localized, called-out body of believers, assembled together under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, with the pastor as the leader, the deacon in the 'servan'ts' office with a congregational govt. (pastor-leader, congregation-governing)

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

mama_in_africa — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 22:30:30 -0000

...and just to further clarify (cause I can see it comin'...) I was making the point that when the letters were written by Paul and Peter, they were to locally assembled believers in specific groups, in specific cities... but of course they can be applied to all believers in the Body of Christ

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

mama_in_africa — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 22:01:40 -0000

To ritab--just to clarify on your question about "pastor" being used in Scripture-Eph. 4:11 is the only verse I could find actually using this word, but in Acts, the Timothy's and Titus the words used are 'overseer' or 'elder' which are synonymous with pastor.
I come from a congregationally led church btw, where we do have a pastor (leader) but the church can vote the guy out if they don't like him, basically. So, MY whole point in this is just to say that we can't just say "I'm sick of church (for whatever reason), I'm just going to do it my way from now on." I don't believe the majority of people here are actually suggesting this, but I was addressing the idea of meeting at home, etc. and not placing yourself in the midst of the organized structure of what God had set up for us in the Word. The Church is the Body of Christ, but it is also a meeting together with local believers under an umbrella of authority and accountability. Peter and Paul wrote letters to address problems within churches (groups of believers) in different cities--not to just all the believers out there in the Body of Christ. The pastor is not the head, of course, he is just a leader who pastors the flock
Dale, are you saying that you're not sure if the church should be "led" by a pastor? (shepherded) at all? Or do you mean it should have more than one? If you could clarify that...
I'm not suggesting that we have to remain totally old school--there are always ways to improve a system already in place. I just wanted to address 'throwing out the baby with the bathwater'. We need to keep church systems as laid out in Scripture, in place

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

mama_in_africa — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:46:11 -0000

It is true that we ought to be careful about trying out something else because we feel the church has let us down. God has given us his expectations in Scripture concerning how we are to meet together on the Lord's Day, with other believers, and it is to be a local body, led by a pastor, etc. (not in 'dictator' fashion, of course) You can't argue with or deny that it's there in the Scriptures--it definitely is. We have to be careful about trying to manipulate God's intentions. God left us instructions in His revealed word about church, what it is, how it's to be done, etc. (I'm not referring to Church as the Body of Christ, but rather believers meeting together locally) Becoming too 'progressive' in our thinking is usually the way downward, because we start to elevate our own ideas above Scripture. Not that we can't rearrange some ideas that are not working, but I'm just throwing out the caution: Go back to what the Bible has to say--that is STILL the key, and we must base all thinking in and around it. Just some humbly left thoughts as I read all the commentary

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

mama_in_africa — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:45:50 -0000

I agree with thiteral, and can back up what he is saying because I live and work in a third world country where church seems to be oftenly enjoyed more for the purpose of gathering together to be with others, than just to fulfill a mandate that we're all supposed to be doing because we know it's what we're supposed to do. The Africans we work with have very little in their homes and possession. As a result (I think) of not having much around them to enjoy, or entertain them, they just love a good party, or any such event where they can just be with other people. They LOVE people! They have such little materially, that their main concern really is with helping their fellow man--empathizing, and/or sympathizing with him. They hurt with those who hurt. They rejoice with each other when there is cause. They just sit together and whittle away hours talking, literally doing nothing but chatting and solving all the world's problems (or mysteries) Sometimes, they just enjoy sitting close to each other, without talking. ('my personal space and time' is not a relevant thing in that culture. They don't even like to be alone--EVER, it seems!) It is a very community oriented environment, and each person having his/her place in the community is extremely vital to each one's survival. They are very focused on keeping up relationships. It's extremely important for them to do so, and so essential for survival within their communities. (which often makes it hard for the outsiders like us to find our niche with them, but that's another topic :)
I think that maybe the American church has somewhat lost sight of this element of meeting together--building relationships. It probably used to be there more so, before there was so much technology and entertainment at our fingertips, but there is too much nowadays to take the focus off relationship-building. Oh sure, we still love to be together and talk even these days, but are we really focusing on the meaning of what God commands for the meeting together, or 'church' --that we "forsake not the assembling of ourselves together...exhorting one another..." Could be that maybe we need to focus on the exhortation of people more here in this nation as these dear Africans have shewn us, whom we observe on a daily basis in Tanzania.