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Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

kyle75 — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:07:48 -0000

Dan, I think we are mostly in agreement. I was wondering if you could give an example of an instance where "the recorded words of Jesus take precedence over" another NT passage? Just curious!

Kyle

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

kyle75 — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:55:38 -0000

Finally :) if the OT is so distorted, Jesus didn't do a very good job in making that clear. It was pretty clear that the early church and Jesus himself saw his life, death, and resurrection in continuity with the God of Israel, sacrificial system and all.

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

kyle75 — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:51:02 -0000

I thought it best to break up my comments. Now on to the atonement...

I didn't read the other atonement posts on the blog, so I am not sure what the general take is or where the discussion has gone. But in the context of this post I would question the interpretation of "ransom." At the very least, Robert seems to be reading a lot into Jesus use of Ransom. In my estimation there is little evidence that Satan has any "rights" over sinners or that he inflicts death because of sin. The concept of ransom is better taken in the sense of rescue or redemption, deliverance from bondage. The Biblical ransom is not a payment in the sense of a transaction, not like a ransom paid to a kidnapper. The Bible does not address to whom this ransom would be paid. I believe that is because that question is irrelevant and inconsistent with the biblical usage. But early church fathers speculated nonetheless. Some thought the ransom was paid to God, others to Satan. Most modern theologians realize that this is in improper question.

By the way, I also reject the penal substitution view of the atonement. Not because Jesus' words trump the rest of the Bible, but because I do not find it biblical or consistent. Robert's view is in the general Christus Victor sphere, which I see valid to some extent. But not as a ransom payment to Satan.

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

kyle75 — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:35:42 -0000

OK, here goes. First, we need to recognize that we don't have the actual words of Jesus. The gospels are theological biographies, not straight history or newspaper reporting. I am an Evangelical and I believe in the inspiration of Scripture, but in a realistic manner (that's the goal at least). That is, I want the actual text or "phenomena" of Scripture to shape my understanding of what Scripture is, rather than imposing my view of what Scripture should be upon the text. Reading the gospels as simply historical narrative is not supported by the nature of the gospels themselves.

While I do not deny that there is an underlying historical reality to the content of the gospels, what we have as far as specific words and teachings from Jesus are the apostolic and early church community's testimony about both the life of Jesus (historically based) and the significance of his life, teaching, death, and resurrection (theology). The counterargument that the inspiration of Scripture preserved the exact words of Christ is not supported by what we have in Scripture: differences among gospels, evidence of developing tradition, modifications of early creedal/liturgical statement, etc.

So my short response is that allowing Jesus' words to "trump" those of other apostolic voices is rather artificial, since our "words of Jesus" are also apostolic testimony.

A fascinating (to me at least) discussion on this topic can be downloaded free from iTunes. Search for Duke Divinity School, Richard Hays, Bart Ehrman, and The DaVinci Code. They don't talk much about The DaVinci Code but rather use it is a springboard to talk about the historicity of the gospels, the canonization process, etc. Hays' respect for the text and authenticity in allowing each author to speak his message is inspiring.