Disqus - Latest Comments for jeffstraka

Re: Let Us Say: It’s Time to End the National Prayer Breakfast

jeffstraka — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 16:44:55 -0000

Amen! Way past time to stop this nonsense.

Re: UCC Open & Affirming(?): Crossing a Line I Never Wanted: Andrew Lang

jeffstraka — Thu, 05 Oct 2017 15:12:32 -0000

Exactly. They need to do like the drug ads do and include a disclaimer at the end: Not all UCC churches welcome people equally. Restrictions may apply. See pastor for safety and inclusion specifications.

Re: UCC Open & Affirming(?): Crossing a Line I Never Wanted: Andrew Lang

jeffstraka — Thu, 05 Oct 2017 14:41:33 -0000

Either the UCC is an open and affirming denomination or it is not. If the leadership and General Synod passed a resolution as to their equal rights stance, then the independent congregations need to follow it or join a less progressive denomination. Why should church seekers have to bear the responsibility to determine IF and TO WHAT DEGREE they are actually OPEN AND AFFIRMING? On the Open and Affirming website it says: "There are differences between congregations, but generally, an ONA church...", so apparently there is no REQUIREMENT that a congregation follow everything that would make an LGBT safe! I find it interesting that the UCC slogan is "God is Still Speaking," and yet this God seems to be only "speaking" clearly to 26% of the UCC congregations who claim to be Open and Affirming. And Andrew Lang is not "speaking" at all...

Re: Trans Parent Ex Preacher’s Church Concerns: The UCC

jeffstraka — Tue, 19 Sep 2017 14:41:25 -0000

If the UCC church - supposedly the most progressive denomination in the U.S. - would take the inevitable move and admit (as the Jesus Seminar/Westar Institute long said) as a denomination that the Bible is a 100% HUMAN product, the debate on human sexuality/gender would be OVER. You no longer would have to cut/paste/edit to make the 2000-3000 year old writings of desert nomads (with essentially no scientific knowledge) fit into what we now know biologically. Every time your denomination (and others) wanted to move up a notch in progressing human rights (racial, women, same-sex marriage) you've had to cut/paste/spin the bible in order to get some kind of "God-approval" from its ancient words. And now, with transgender, intersex, queer, bi, pre/non-marital, polyamory, etc., you are hard-pressed to find words of approval to convince your congregants other than "love one another". So, yes. You CAN become Open and Affirming of ALL humans ALL AT ONCE if you, as a denomination, would admit what the bible REALLY is (a fascinating and enlightening history of humankind's search of meaning and purpose) and stop giving it a privileged position of authority on human morality and ethics. If you are to survive as a church, you really have little choice.

Re: “Unsuitable” Gretta Vosper is Why Mainline Denominations Are Dying

jeffstraka — Mon, 19 Sep 2016 14:36:44 -0000

"I resist any attempt to "define" God" // I find this interesting. It seems you are not allowing Gretta (and other post-theists) the same courtesy. While it seems your denomination (and the mainlines here in the U.S.) define God clearly in their antiquated statements,doctrines, hymnals and biblical readings/prayers (usually a three-tier view), Gretta's community have decided to move beyond that language and definition. So, I don't quite understand your issue if you ALSO want to move beyond boxing God in. By refusing to define God, you, too, may be unsuitable for ministry in the UCC. And that is EXACTLY the dangerous precedent they are setting up by this inquisition. It seems you ought to be on her side.

Though this book is not described as a post-postmodern work, I think it just might be. Brewin points to where we are headed with what another author calls "digimodernism". Just trying to explode your post-modern box a bit. :)
https://www.amazon.com/Gett...

ps. - I have read Hauerwas and have heard him speak. I'm post-Hauerwas.

Re: “Unsuitable” Gretta Vosper is Why Mainline Denominations Are Dying

jeffstraka — Sun, 18 Sep 2016 10:30:57 -0000

As a lay person, I don't have the patience to read such an academic (and inaccessible!) book. I just want to know how you define God in this post-modern theology. Is God a being or a metaphor? I also would like to know how you articulate this theology to those in the pews. What are the books that are aimed at the laity?

Also, here is Gretta's response to being considered "unsuitable": http://www.grettavosper.ca/...

Re: “Unsuitable” Gretta Vosper is Why Mainline Denominations Are Dying

jeffstraka — Sat, 17 Sep 2016 11:05:25 -0000

Theologically current? Would you be referring to process theology or panentheism? Before becoming a post-theist, those helped me stay quasi-accepted by the progressive church. While it helped answer some of the theodicy questions (the process God was not ominpotent), it ultimately made God less helpful that a real-life friend or neighbor. Process theology and panentheism offers NO proof of how a god could even persuade, or of a supernatural being at all - God is safely tucked away just out of scientific reach. And, I know, I know - many process people claim that theirs is a "naturalist" theology. Sorry, but the central theme of a God who persuades (rather than coerces) still implies an immeasurable, immaterial (thus super-natural) force/being acting the material world. And even if a progressive pastor is leading a congregation around a process/panentheist God idea, the Bible overwhelmingly describes a traditional three-tier universe God, as do the hymnals you sing from. Ultimately, my deconstructive research (I'm a lay person, not clergy) led me to see religion and the gods/God as human constructs. I am open to evidence of a god, thus far they've all been borne by man. https://www.amazon.com/Theo...

Re: “Unsuitable” Gretta Vosper is Why Mainline Denominations Are Dying

jeffstraka — Fri, 16 Sep 2016 09:46:44 -0000

Ross - have you sat down and talked to Gretta or the members at West Hill as to why they've chosen to broaden their philosophical and inspirational resources beyond simply a 2-3,000 year old collection written 100% by humans? Have you wondered why the church is shrinking, and that it might be that the continued use of exclusive Christian language and the use of three-tier universe liturgical theology has cut off the younger generations from engaging? As for the plummeting membership, yes - that was the case as their congregation was readjusting and re-calibrating. But now they are increasing in attendees and members. You claim they have rejected Christian PRACTICES? Again - you, and most in the UCC have failed to dialog WITH HER COMMUNITY or you would know that they are actually more "Christian" than in their social and environmental practices that MOST churches! Yes, Jesus (mythical or not) taught some great ethics, but he also taught some less-than-ethical practices. Have you read Revelation?

Re: “Unsuitable” Gretta Vosper is Why Mainline Denominations Are Dying

jeffstraka — Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:49:51 -0000

The common thread is post-supernaturalism. Some will argue that process theology is a naturalist theology but the claim that this God can persuade (rather than coerce) still suggests a "force" from outside nature entering into nature in a immeasurable way. For me, it was the "gateway drug" into moving totally to naturalism. I think this step away from the supernatural - even one as neutered as a process or panentheist God - is what frightens the institution: they lose the ability to use an outside, transcendent, moral being with which to control their members (it's not me saying it, it's God!).

Re: “Unsuitable” Gretta Vosper is Why Mainline Denominations Are Dying

jeffstraka — Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:41:47 -0000

GREAT article! As a post-theist and friend/fan of Gretta, what you are saying here is ultra important to any progressive church leader. Whether or not they will listen is the key question. I KNOW you ware going to get many comments questioning just how one can be a post-theist/atheist AND a Christian. Well, a Christianity without God has been going on for over 50 years, starting with John A. T. Robinson's book "Honest to God" and Thomas J. J. Altizer's book "Radical Theology and the Death of God". Dr. Lloyd Geering was another theologian who, 50 years ago, was wrestling with (and writing about) a "Godless" Christianity and he, too, was brought up on heresy charges. One of his best books on this is called simply "Christianity Without God" I hope any of those questioning commenters will take some time and watch this video which lays out our human history of creating the gods/God. https://vimeo.com/68583460

Re: Jill Stein: “many scientists will lie to preserve their status in the corporate power structure”

jeffstraka — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 09:50:11 -0000

Did she go to Trump University to learn the "Art of the Tweet"?

Re: Commentary: This is how Terrapin quietly sold out to Big Beer and betrayed its fans

jeffstraka — Tue, 26 Jul 2016 16:29:36 -0000

But I wonder how much the archaic and restrictive Georgia microbrewery beer laws play into this since their hands are tied as to how much revenue (and profit margin) you can generate at your own place of business. It likely FORCES you to focus more on distribution than on building a local patron base and community. I'm obviously contrasting to Asheville.

Re: New Christian Contemplatives

jeffstraka — Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:42:07 -0000

Diana Butler Bass is being dishonest in her use of PEW stats. If you look at the wording of the LATEST (2015) survey, you will find that this "mystical experience" is actually the very neutral "awe and wonder" question that non-spiritual, non-theistic people ALSO have out in nature (question 14 here: http://www.pewforum.org/fil... ). She twists the stats to make it fit her presupposition that the institutional church - and its "new and improved" God - are still needed, and if they just tweak things a bit, the millennials will return. And while some Episcopal churches may embrace this "panentheistic" view of God, their hymns and prayers continue to address the Sky God in the three-tier universe.

Re: The Humanist Hour #186: Mark Smith on Secular Faith: How Culture Has Trumped Religion in American Politics

jeffstraka — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 08:51:24 -0000

I must say I disagree with Dr. Smith's claim that evangelicals are more progressive on issues than in the past. In every case I can think of, they have been FORCED, either by war (in the case of slavery) or by law. They STILL read the bible literally and believe that God ordains a hierarchical "order" with men (assumed to be white) on top and in charge. Things have only changed on the surface.

Re: Yes, Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God (But Here’s What That Means & Doesn’t)

jeffstraka — Mon, 21 Dec 2015 17:03:10 -0000

http://progressivechristian...

Re: Yes, Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God (But Here’s What That Means & Doesn’t)

jeffstraka — Mon, 21 Dec 2015 08:10:28 -0000

I see that you avoided my main issue with your claim. If this god can supernaturally intervene to grant your "wish", certainly he could have somehow intervened with those who were murdered in San Bernadino. I'm guessing every one of those murdered WISHED they could have stayed alive. If he could not override the "free-will" of the terrorists, certainly he could have done SOMETHING to tell those office workers to stay home that day. See, to me, a god who seems to be able to break natural laws from time to time to "save" someone (such as yourself), needs to do that for EVERYONE or do it for NO ONE.

Re: Yes, Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God (But Here’s What That Means & Doesn’t)

jeffstraka — Sun, 20 Dec 2015 21:56:59 -0000

I'm not going to debate your "vision" other than to say there are other natural explanations for what your brain made you think you saw. My issue is with a god with enough supernatural power to rearrange clouds to provide you with such a clear vision, and yet does not use those powers to prevent senseless deaths due to disease, accidents and terrorist shootings. A good book on how we evolved to create gods is "Why We Believe in God(s): A Concise Guide to the Science of Faith".

Re: Yes, Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God (But Here’s What That Means & Doesn’t)

jeffstraka — Sun, 20 Dec 2015 21:34:25 -0000

Sorry, as a post-theist, I no longer attribute any of those things to God or Satan.

Re: Yes, Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God (But Here’s What That Means & Doesn’t)

jeffstraka — Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:34:59 -0000

I see some need to move post-satan as well!

Re: Yes, Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God (But Here’s What That Means & Doesn’t)

jeffstraka — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 14:29:59 -0000

Yep. This is the problem with THEISM and its continued struggle to identify and describe the mythical being called God that is forever bound to ancient texts. Since the texts range from 600 BCE (Torah) to 600 CE (Qur'an), is it any wonder why this "same" God is vastly different? The same God? Yes, in the sense that these communities all needed a mythical, elusive, supernatural being to keep their tribes in line - they all are worshiping that same idea of God. But at the same time, it should not be a shock that, because of this wide time spread, this "God" is addressing vastly different psychological/cultural needs. Thus, this constructed "God" ends up pitting each Abrahamic faith against the other with no possible "interfaith" resolution. Time to move these religions towards post-theism.

Re: Christians in the Wild - United Church of Christ

jeffstraka — Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:20:03 -0000

There are MANY of us who deconverted to post-theism/atheism via a progressive, deconstructive route. The Emergent movement was my introduction to digging deep into the real history of the church and the bible.

Re: Fighting God is the atheist manifesto it promises to be

jeffstraka — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:15:07 -0000

I don't "shed" the term "atheist" in favor of "humanism" - both are terms that identify who I am. I identify as an atheist when I am asked whether I believe in a God or not, but that is just one tiny piece of my identity and worldview. When asked, "what, then DO you believe in?", I will answer that I am a Humanist and believe it is up to US (as it always has been) to take care of the planet and each other. To me, it seems to be a logical AND NECESSARY connection. While I appreciate the work of David Silverman and the American Atheist Association (I'm a member), and find it an important piece of the movement, the advancement of Humanism (I'm also a member) is equally (and perhaps even MORE) important.

We are not "fighting God", since God is a non-existent creation of humans. We are fighting the Death of God. Just as with the death of a loved-one, we go through angry and bitter stages of denial, largely because we cannot imagine life without this loved one (in this case, God) because they [supposedly] gave us meaning and purpose. But at some point, we must find the necessary tools to live without God, and those tools are provided by Humanism. Atheism only gets one to acknowledge the death of God. Humanism provides the community and the tools needed to LIVE without God.

Re: Atheist Clergy Colleagues Agree on Many Things, but…

jeffstraka — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 17:27:19 -0000

I certainly hope you are right and I do want to be as optimistic as I can be. Yes, most of the mainlines HAVE made progress on humanist issues (slavery, women's rights, segregation, women clergy, LGBTQ rights) but ONLY when culture pushed them into a corner and ONLY when they were able to find a way to creatively exegete the bible to "fit" their new-found revelation. But those humanist shifts did not involve the Institution giving up the authority of God (and the bible) - they are able to still use this non-existent authority as a "hammer" over those outside their tribe. So this "Theist God line" will be a difficult one for them to concede for sure. If you've not yet read LeRon Shults' "Theology After the Birth of God", it is well worth the time.

Re: Atheist Clergy Colleagues Agree on Many Things, but…

jeffstraka — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 12:09:09 -0000

Others here have rightly criticized Mr. Ripley's use of this public forum - and using it at this especially sensitive time - to rebuke Gretta Vosper for what many of us see as courageous and necessary in moving the liberal/progressive church towards post-theism. I have commented here as well. One thing I want to emphasize that I think many theists and non-theists tragically miss (or want to completely avoid for "interfaith" dialogue") is that fact that unless and until the liberal/mainline church (and mosques and synagogues) lets go of God as an interventionist, tribal deity, and lets go of the bible as a "God-inspired", privileged authority, the conservative/fundamentalists will continue to see the need to violently react and fight against these perceived "heretics".

I recently finished a couple of books on Christianity's role in the Civil War (one was "The Civil War as a Theological Crisis", by Mark A. Noll) and it was breath-takingly clear that this war - which took over 700,000 lives - was a RELIGIOUS war between the liberal church theology of the North (who moved towards a more spiritual reading of the bible) and the fundamentalist church theology of the South (whose literal reading found a God who commanded slavery and favored white supremacy). BOTH sides still believed in a providential, interventionist God and thought God was surely on THEIR side. 150 years later, is this STILL not the crisis we are in? (Perhaps it's not so coincidental that the "Bible Belt" states are pretty much the same former Confederate states.) Are not both liberals and fundamentalists claiming that THEY hear God correctly and that he is on their side? And as atheists, we well know that there IS no such God, and that the "holy text" they are both cherry-picking and contorting was written by ancient middle-eastern desert nomads and goat herders. The ONLY way this violent, theological tug-of-war will end if if the liberal/mainline church simply admit what they know down deep and let go of the rope. Gretta courageously wrote a letter (after the Charlie Hebdo tragedy) pleading for such a conversation to take place so that we can move the world one step closer to a rational peace. Only post-theists from WITHIN the institution can rightly be a prophetic voice. Those who have left no longer have a seat at the table. http://www.grettavosper.ca/...

As I have said elsewhere here, this post-Darwinian, post-Einsteinian, post-theistic conversation has been going on for over 50 years. I am not holding my breath that the UCC will do the right thing and finally embrace the conversation any more that I think the mainlines in the U.S. will - I think this is the hill they created and it will be the hill on which they will literally die. We will know their decision soon.

Re: Atheist Clergy Colleagues Agree on Many Things, but…

jeffstraka — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 16:04:08 -0000

Post-theistic views within the church are nothing new, nor is the possibility in a post-theistic/atheistic Christianity. Certainly you're aware of John A. T. Robinson's 1963 book, "Honest to God", Thomas J. J. Altizers' 1966 book, "Radical Theology and the Death of God", and the discussions this launched (and the church quelled). Certainly you are aware to the work and the heresy of Lloyd Geering in the '60's for saying the VERY same thing that Gretta is 50 years later, not to mention his 2002 book, "Christianity without God". If you've no idea who Lloyd Geering is (he posted a supportive letter on Gretta's blog), watch this video where he explains how Humans Made God: https://vimeo.com/68583460 .

Certainly you have been exposed to John Shelby Spong's many books pleading for the church to let go of the bible as a "divinely inspired book" and to accept it as a human document, and pleading people to let go of the interventionist sky-god in favor of a more scientific-compatible post-theism. Certainly you are aware - especially if you read LaScola's and Dennett's book, "Caught in the Pulpit" that progressive seminaries expose their students to these post-theistic, radical ideas and yet tell them to keep it from the laity.

“God, to me, is the source of life, and I worship God by living. God, to me, is the source of love, and I worship God by loving. God, to me, is the ground of being, and I worship God by having the courage to be everything that I can be.” ~John Shelby Spong

“One of the symbols that I think we finally have got to get rid of in order for the Christian faith to live is the definition of God as a theistic being. That’s the God that has been destroyed by the expansion of knowledge. Theism is not God; theism is a human definition of God.” ~John Shelby Spong

“An atheist is not someone who does not believe there is a God. An atheist is one who has rejected the theistic definition of God.” ~John Shelby Spong

Certainly you have been exposed to the work of Westar/Jesus Seminar whose bold critical work has changed much of what we think about the bible, Jesus and now, through their "Seminar on God and the Human Future" is asking the bold question "does God have a future?" http://www.westarinstitute....

So for you (and the UCC) to find it hard to understand "how a vow expressing faith in God can be reinterpreted to include atheism", it simply suggests that you (and they) have been insulated from these conversations and ideas that have been going on for more than 50 years. Because 50 years later, you and they are perhaps asking the wrong question completely.