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Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Sat, 05 Sep 2009 12:29:07 -0000

Pey wrote : I just want to be honest about who you are- not just some simple Bahai here for dialouge and understanding. You are not.

Pey, I have been here under my true name, and all my messages have been truthful and honest; I have certainly not been participating with the intent of hurting anyone’s feelings. I intend to invest more time elsewhere and I am grateful to those who by contradicting me have helped me towards a better understanding of this problem here.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Sat, 05 Sep 2009 09:02:10 -0000

Peyamb wrote: How would you feel if the Bahai Faith was looked at as just a trend to allow to die down or develop? Your words constantly, in a subtle manner insult.

I would feel that being in a minority group of hardly one in a thousand citizens of this planet, others are fully entitled to holding views very different from mine. I would not feel in the least insulted, and by sincerity, and fleeing hypocrisy, I would continue to give my views next to theirs, as I am doing here, next to the vast majority of those on this blog whose views differ from mine. Perhaps I should be more careful and add IMHO before each sentence to avoid appearing pompous?

You express the views of perhaps 10% - a hundred times more numerous than Baha’is - on this planet, and express the views of the vast majority of contributors of this blog, and you feel “subtly” insulted if my views differ from yours. Would I become a “nice” person and no longer a hypocrite if I lied and gave the views you hope to hear, or are you interested to see me appear as a bigot and hear what I might have to say on the subject?

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Sat, 05 Sep 2009 03:50:44 -0000

Grover wrote: you try and turn it round and pin the blame on someone else for your own failings. Farhan

Once again Grover, we are here to share views, not to compare or blame those holding views. When people have no further argument to present on the subject being examined, they start to make comments on those holding the views.
Sonja has suggested that the Baha’is might change their position towards gay marriages; I find this improbable in a foreseeable future. You disagree with me. As Baquia wisely pointed out, time will tell who will have made the right guess. There is no need to call each other names.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Sat, 05 Sep 2009 03:50:44 -0000

Grover wrote: you try and turn it round and pin the blame on someone else for your own failings. Farhan

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Sat, 05 Sep 2009 03:39:06 -0000

Baquia wrote: It is only a matter of time, of life, of death and of a new generation replacing the old. An ever advancing civilization moving forward by throwing aside the shackles forged by past errors.

I totally agree, Baquia, and as we say the proof of the pudding is in the eating. This is why we should allow various trends to develop or to die down by themselves and let smart people throw in their lot with the trend that seems to them the most appropriate. The process of integration and disintegration repeatedly described by Shoghi Effendi confirms your view. As one example:
“Such simultaneous processes of rise and of fall, of integration and of disintegration, of order and chaos, with their continuous and reciprocal reactions on each other, are but aspects of a greater Plan, one and indivisible, whose Source is God, whose author is Baha'u'llah, the theater of whose operations is the entire planet, and whose ultimate objectives are the unity of the human race and the peace of all mankind.” (Advent of Divine Justice (3:1, page: [73])

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 05:37:04 -0000

Grover wrote : you might actually be arrogant, biased, prejudiced, bigoted, patronizing, condescending, and blinkered

Thanks, Grover, for your definition of anyone expressing an opinion that insistently differs from yours. Once again, you are addressing your views of a participant in a dialogue, and not providing your views on the subject being discussed.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 07:32:50 -0000

Peyamb wrote: all you are trying to do is show a kind/gentle side of the Bahais towards gays. This side DOES NOT exist.

Peyamb, who said I represented the Baha’is ? I am just one Baha’i, and I share my understanding that is subject to change. I am trying to dialogue on issues, and not you, me or other Baha’is.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 06:28:39 -0000

Baquia wrote : the point he brings up is valid. What he's asking is that you apply the same standard across the board. Not selectively as you are currently doing.

Baquia, as I have repeated several times, interracial and interreligious marriages have existed over the ages. No one is discussing a change in religious beliefs or legislation in this respect. If the discussion on this subject comes up, I can provide my own personal experience; I believe that people should not be encouraged towards mixed marriages unless they are willing to face the challenges involved.

I am being informed of the suffering of the gays unable to live their orientation in a world where the majority of citizens see no need for a change in religious beliefs and in legislation, neither of which I have any bearing upon. I am occasionally invited to give my views which are close to that of the majority of my colleagues who choose tolerance and caution, a position that you find “disgusting” and contrary to your personal understanding of science.

I agree that many fears expressed 20 years back have been eliminated, but that in many parts of the world, including France, where interracial and interreligious marriages are not questioned, the legislator hesitates to innovate by accepting gay marriages and parenthood.

Is it so difficult to see the selective difference between continuing an age-old situation and adopting an innovation?

I am interested in a dialogue on this subject and I am saying that 1) I do not see sexual orientation as a race 2) I do not see sexual orientation as slavery 3) I do not see GLTB as a specific social group or gender, and if did, I wonder if we should not promote unity by encouraging intermarriage between gays and non-gays or between gays and lesbians. 5) Within the framework of civil laws, we should let religions apply their principles without pressuring them so that we can compare results. 6) Efforts should be made at improving dialogue between gays and non-gays and avoiding that it becomes a source of further misunderstanding and resentment through harsh and scatological language.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 04:11:25 -0000

There is also a quote from Baha'u'llah saying that if the Baha'is dont arise to serve, God would raise the pebbles (or the grains of sand) to serve Him.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 04:06:10 -0000

Barb wrote : according to your beliefs, a man should never enter into a sacred, legal, loving commitment to another man, and a woman should never enter into a sacred, legal, loving commitment to another woman

No, Barb. This is not my belief and in any case I am willing to consider other beliefs in a dialogue but not in a wrestling match.

Since I chose to live and work in France, I apply the laws here and I participate in discussions about gay marriages and parenthood. My understanding is that what we have seen over the last 25 years is reassuring, but not sufficient at this time for the legislator (which I am not) to promote laws in favour of gay marriages and parenthood. I also consider it necessary to allow all religious communities to apply whatever prescriptions they deem necessary, without putting them under pressure, so that in time we can compare results.

If I am asked the opinion of Baha’is in this matter, I would say that they have elected delegates who have elected NSAs who in turn have elected an international body that condemns discrimination against gays, requires chastity from its members without distinguishing between gays and non-gays and does not make provisions for religious gay marriages. Being gay is not equated to a separate race or to a form of slavery. My understanding is that if we did wish to separate people with different orientations as different races, the Baha’i principle would encourage interracial marriages and not segregation of gays from non-gays is different communities.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 02:52:40 -0000

Peyamb wrote : Seems yet again hypocritical on your part. Have you learned that word hypocrisy yet Farhan?

Peyamb, You have your experience and opinions, I have mine. I am willing to enter into a dialogue so as to share experiences, and where I might learn and perhaps advance in my opinions. I am not willing to enter into a wrestling match where people throw junk at each other.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 10:19:24 -0000

dco wrote: the persecution my family gives me because I am a Baha'i is matched only the persecution of the Baha'is because I am gay.

Well, this is appalling and an obvious violation of Baha'i principles. This is why we all need spiritualisation through a deeper study of the writings. As to the community requirements, which under no circumstances warrant misbehaviour from Baha'is, I agree that it is not a small deal and a great dilemma for a conscientious soul.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 10:07:59 -0000

Peyamb wrote: So why is it you don't have any objections or obstacles to a Bahai marrying a non-Bahai? Have you already done the research to show that the children turn out ok?

Farhan: we have generations of examples before us and we know the challenges, the pitfalls and advantages; there is no ongoing social debate on this subject, and Baha’i teachings encourage them. No one is ranting about them, so why should I waste my time suggesting a new legislation when I am living through them?

Peyamb: Yet somewho, you have no problem with these types of marriages- they are not even worthy of your great scientific mind that is, you know, just observing for the good of humanity

Farhan: I observe the laws of society as you do, and I occasionally give recommendations if my opinion is sought. It so happens that gay marriages and parenthood are being discussed in France amongst other subjects for the oncoming revision of the 1994 bioethical laws by lawmakers, biologists, moralists and various associations. These laws are also under discussion as an innovation in the US and elsewhere in the world. Your views are as valuable to me (and perhaps even more so) as many others.

The fact that Baha’i teachings do not endorse them for Baha’is, does not alter the fact that I am working in a society where they exist, where a new legislation is being discussed for those who do not wish to be guided by Baha’i teachings, so I cannot ignore them. The fact that the Baha’i teachings suggest that science in the future will enable us to cure many diseases through appropriate diets, does not allow me to apply medical treatments other than those now endorsed by present day science. I have to live in the present world with an eye on the future.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:36:49 -0000

Barb wrote : you try to fit life to your theories and theology, rather than observing life and using that observation to adjust your theories.

Barb, I have been involved in ethical decision making in these issues for some 20 years now. This involves people who call on medical teams for medical assistance for procreation, and sociologists, psychologists and law makers impartially trying to find the best solution for the would-be parents, the kids and for society.

I am saying that the people I interact with say they don’t know. You quote stories of successful families and say you know. Law-makers require scientific evidence and there is a huge amount of exchange in Europe as the bioethics laws are being discussed.

For the moment the studies I have had access to cover a couple of decades and suggest that children raised by gay families are doing statistically better than those raised by non-gay families. The objection to this has been that the gay parents studied were statistically more educated, financially better off, more meticulous since conscious of being observed. Another objection is that we need more time to see how these kids will act as parents.

If you know of more recent studies I am not aware of, I would be grateful to have access to them. If anyone feels that my comments here have been unscientific, I would be glad to have them assessed by any scientific committee in France or in the US; the reply can be shared here.

This has nothing to do with my personal opinions as a Baha’i which concern my beliefs and not my professional activities and my patients. My guess, as a Baha’i, is that Abdu’l-Baha would promote love and fellowship amongst gays and non-gays, the same requirements concerning chastity, and encourage marriages between gays and non-gays, and not intermarriage amongst themselves.

We also have to consider at what pace a society can evolve without creating havoc. A hundred years ago Abdu’l-Baha encouraged mixed marriages in the US but forty years ago the film “Guess who is coming to dinner” was banned in the US, but not in France.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 08:45:54 -0000

Good idea, dco; there might already be an advance in statistics i consulted a couple of years ago.

After quoting religions on gay relations, marriages and parenthood, it would be good to quote scientists and see what percentage of them are better informed than myself.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:09:17 -0000

Tim, being left handed in a right handed world is a handicap, although nobody's fault. It is not being "sinistralophobic" to point it out. It was ofcourse a still much greater handicap some centuries ago when you might have been burnt at the stake. It so happens that lefthanded people are often smarter than others, so this compensates that ;-)

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 10:07:41 -0000

Sonjavank: The removal and the reason for removal that is extremely important

Farhan: I agree; it is very important spiritually, perhaps as a means of informing the community of the importance of rules, but not comparable to a child being abandoned or rejected by his parents.

Sonjavank: A NSA is punishing someone for making the life-long commitment of marriage!

Farhan: they would be doing _exactly_ the same if the couple married without consent of parents or if a person got involved in politics. It is an educative action towards whatever might be a threat to the stability of the community and not specifically against gays. That individuals in the community might be homophobic or bigots, is another matter that equally needs attention in our immature communities.

I see a difference between breaking a rule and publicly announcing your disagreement with a rule. In the first case you are saying I accept the laws of this community, but i am unable to comply; in the second you are saying I disagree with the rules of this community.

Sonjavank: the implication is that for gays it would be better not to declare themselves to join the Bahai community

Farhan: a good point. Some youth even wait to have a stabilised life before declaring! My taking is that part of our spiritual education is accepting God’s will above our own. By avoiding this confrontation, we are like a patient running away from a necessary injection. We have difficult choices in our lives; it is by making the right choice that the stumbling block becomes a stepping stone. If we duck all the obstacles we will not progress spiritually, but again, only the one who wishes to undertake that spiritual journey upwards, away from his own will and nearer to that of God can accept such a sacrifice. There is no question of imposing it on others, but whatever the motives of the UHJ, I humbly accept their arbitration and any necessary reforms the decide necessary.

Meanwhile, we have a duty to reduce the stigma and prejudice in our societies and within our communities towards gays and one way of advancing is in asking our LSA which activities are officially open to them.

Sonjvank: …he sees that - I assume - the homophobic attitudes in the letters written by secretaries on behalf of Shoghi Effendi as part of the unchangeable Bahai Scripture

Farhan: Even if we made abstraction of all the scriptures and comments by secretaries, if I were a member of a secular institution confronted with the decision of instating gay marriages (thanks God I am not), I cannot see how an international community could cope at the present hour in human history, with all the implications involved in such a legislative change in family structure.

I am not against innovations, but I would say, as a principle of precaution, let us wait and see what results experiments are going to produce elsewhere. We now have a small cohort over some 25 years of gay parenthood studies behind us. We still don’t know how these kids from gay parents are going to cope with parenthood.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 09:39:57 -0000

Peyamb wrote: Considering me an outsider, a person in the "community of interest" is being discriminatory

Farhan: back to my PhD analogy, if someone finds it difficult to follow a PhD course because the requirements are inadapted to his choices, why not try something else? You ask a community to change it’s rules to suit you, when other communities offer precisely the rules you are requesting. Some 6 M people elect delegates who elect NSA members who elect 9 members so as to arbitrate on such matters. We cannot stigmatize such a community for its views and values as I see done here.

If I were not a Baha’i, as a doctor to a Baha’i patient, as any doctor unaware of the Baha’i Faith would do, I would say if this community does not suit you, find one that does and be happy. I would be scientifically interested to see the outcome of these social experiments.

As a Baha’i I am saying we need to improve our attitude towards gay people, but I believe that that the family structure prescribed by Baha’u’llah is in the best interests of humanity. I cannot, either as a Baha’i, or as a doctor, attempt to oblige a community to change it’s regulations on family structure to suit a minority.

This is my understanding today; it would evolve: no spin, no obfuscation, no lies.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 08:58:12 -0000

Timwatts wrote : they are in a wheel chair and as a result cannot manage the stairs.....

Farhan: are you saying that being gay is a handicap? I am saying that it is a minority situation that needs help, and that societies are not tuned to that duty as yet.

You might believe that the solution is to liberalise gay relations or make provisions for gay marriages, I believe that societies have a right to reflect and hesitate before making such a decision unprecedented in human history.

Timwatts: being a Baha'i is improving your education....trying to bend the rules for your own private confort is a kind of cheating....

Farhan: That is not my opinion. My belief is that when we accept a manifestation of God, which no one is obliged to do, we are accepting an ideal towards which we hope to evolve and we come together with others having the same goal; some have an easier time than others who as you say are handicapped.

We are supposed to help each other, as this is not a competition, but an effort for mutually raising our global capacities. Some people in Baha’i communities have not grasped this fact as yet and they bring about power issues. The handicap might come from our family background, addictions, health problems, or whatever. The handicapped person should be helped and has a greater merit, and is spiritually more advanced than a person without handicaps, but it is not a good idea to lower the standard for everyone.

Stigma and prejudice towards others is unacceptable and has to be corrected. I consider it as more grievous than not observing community rules, but this does not mean that each community does not have the right to establish it's own regulations within the limits of state laws.

Now we have to find how to help each other, including the socially handicapped bigoted puritans, into becoming better people.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 06:23:18 -0000

Pey, I would be very surprised if the UHJ or any other Baha'i institution approbated the idea of a child being thrown out of home for homosexuality, which is obviously against the basic rules of parenthood and the prescriptions of the UHJ against stigma and prejudice. The minimal requirements for participating in administrative functions is an entirely different matter from our sacred duties towards others. This statement from the UHJ to the NSA of the US seems to outline the responsibility of every Baha’is very clearly to me.

"To regard homosexuals with prejudice and disdain would be entirely against the spirit of Baha'i Teachings. The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstances; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Baha'i Teachings."

http://bahai-library.com/uh...

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 06:16:19 -0000

Peyamb wrote: Liberal Catholic congregations are doing this, so why not the Bahais?

Peyamb, from what we learn from Sonja, there is a move towards this in some communities. The LSA has much to say in such matters and can decide which activities are open to non enrolled people who have never been considered as second zone citizens, except perhaps by some bigots, but as the "community of interest".

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 06:09:15 -0000

Barb, I agree with most of what you say. I see you implicitly ruling out gay relations, as non gay relations, outside wedlock. Love between all, whatever the gender, is the rule, but not expressed physically. Stigma and prejudice should be abolished and minorities should be protected. This is my purpose for introducing the comparison with left handedness. I remember a colleague who would get into a rage and throw the instruments on the floor because the scissors would not work, instead of buying scissors for left handed.

What you describe of the Baha’i marriage is the spiritual and essential part, what goes on between a person and God and would be valid for someone stranded on an isolated island. I understand the passage in Aqdas on « livat » translated as « sodomy » referring to homosexuality, whether male or female and not anal penetration. All this is our private deal with God, but Baha’is also interact with a community and need to abide by community laws.

The crux of the subject would then boil down to social norms and standards within each community and the minimum requirements of the particular community we wish to belong to.

What you say about norms is valid for blood pressure and body temperature, but norms also refer to a “golden standard” towards which we wish to advance. It is statistically “abnormal” to be well fed, have clean water and access to education on this planet, but the golden standard is to rise above all these limitations of nature and this can only be accomplished through a harmonized community effort. Our aim hence is not to be “normal” but to advance along the path of human endeavour.

If someone decides to improve his situation by doing a PhD, he doesn’t start asking I am allowed to skip early morning lectures and bring a cell phone, my MP3 and sandwiches to the conference room. His aim is to learn and he will try to see which books he has to buy and where he has to find references. As Abdu’l-Baha says, it is not sufficient to choose the right professor: we have to go to the university, enroll and advance in the path of knowledge and virtue.

We adhere to a religion to see how we can improve ourselves and the society we live in. This is why I consider discussions as to “norms” of what is acceptable and what is not in order to maintain an ID card as well below the true purpose of religion.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:57:48 -0000

Timwatts wrote: What do you beleive do you beleive that homosexuality is ABNORMAL?

Farhan: The question as I see it is not what is normal or abnormal. The question is what can I do which will be in the best interests of humanity, as an individual, and as a member of society. Christ’s life was not “normal”; it was by far in the best interests of humanity.

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:55:56 -0000

Timwatts wrote: What do you beleive do you beleive that homosexuality is ABNORMAL?

Re: Change is a Law of Nature

farhan — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:50:10 -0000

Timwatts, as I understand it, the Baha’i teachings speak very little about sin, evil and such concepts which are outdated pedagogical concepts for previous ages. The Baha’i teachings speak in terms of spiritual progress, acquiring of virtues and putting these virtues towards the service of mankind. The accent is not on what not to do, but on what we should gladly accomplish during our short lives in this world.

It is never too late to undertake this spiritual journey. What counts, is not what we appear to be compared to others, but what progress we have accomplished in compared with what God gave us. In the eyes of God, a person that others might consider as a sinner can be far more advanced than a prominent person who has not advanced from his initial starting point. No misgiving is too great, no shortcoming is insurmountable in the eyes of God.