One has to wonder, where was the Judicial Council when the proposed restructuring plan was being developed?  Shouldn't they have had a consulting role?  When the body meets only once every four years at great expense, it can hardly afford to take the risk that the JC will find their legislation unconstitutional at the end of the Conference.   I feel sorry for the delegates, particularly the Central Conference delegates, who had to travel so far for so long to accomplish so little. 

The Judicial Council cannot advise, but only respond.  Once the legislation was complete, the General Conference itself did, in fact, as for that response, and got it post haste.  It is good that the response did not come next October or in 12 months, when Judicial Council again meets.  (It meets during General Conference for just such possible questions.)

I struggle to understand how this debate continues based on observing the reality of our other cross-denominational brethren? Certain Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Episcopal sects have started ordaining gay priest/pastors. Their attendance is dying. I challenge anyone to counter this as truth. One of the huge difficulties in life (Christian or not) is deciding between doing what seems to be the nice thing vs doing the right thing. The two are not always equal. God's grace is open to all, and everyone is welcomed into practically any Christian church. We want straight people, gay people, healthy, sick, rich and poor in church. Salvation is for all and the church is here for us all to support one another.

That does not mean that ordainment is for all. At the end of the day we still need to be obedient to God's word. In my opinion anyone who is purposely living a sinful lifestyle continuously (any sinful lifestyle, not just homosexuality) should not be in church leadership, as they are purposely and continuously deciding to crucify Christ over and over again. Which is not a truly repentant lifestyle making regular mistakes. God speaks of those who are lukewarm (one foot in the spirit, one foot in the world), God is extremely blunt on his feelings of such people. 

If there was someone who wanted to be a pastor who was continuously stealing, I would hope no one would ordain him/her. Likewise if they were continuously caught lying, most would not want to ordain the compulsive liar. How is this different.

I struggle to understand how this debate takes up so much time that could be spent witnessing to the unsaved. When we look at our inter-denominational brethren, we know that there are sects of the Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Episcopal churches who have been ordaining gay priests/pastors for the last few years. They have been losing members at a great rate since, including church splits.

Anyone who is knowingly and continuously living a sinful lifestyle should not be in church leadership. This is not speaking of being a sinner or even a slight backslide, but continuously deciding to live a lifestyle which is in essence crucifying Christ over and over again, which is not true repentance. I am not just speaking of homosexuality here, but any lifestyle of sin (stealing, lying, etc)

If someone wanted to be ordained and they were continuously stealing and/or were caught lying, I would have to believe that anyone reading this would be against their ordainment. Please tell me if I am wrong in that. Apart from this being a great liberal political movement right now, I see no reason to believe how this is any different. Please tell me how it is.

If someone is claiming to be a Christian while living a lifestyle of sin, they are, in my opinion, exemplifying what God called lukewarm, and the Bible tells us God's response to such people. Without fixing the sinful lifestyle they should Biblically ordained.

That being said - everyone (straight, gay, rich, poor, healthy, ill, etc) is welcome at practically every Christian church. The church is a spiritual hospital and God's grace is there for all and will accept anyone into his fold. So, all are Welcome at any UMC church and pretty much every Christian church. But that does not mean that all are called to ordainment.

John

 They were busy interpreting Disciplinary language that in fact does not exist and fabricating from whole cloth a "pastor's sole authority to determine readiness for membership." That is difficult and time-consuming alchemy to be sure.

I was born a Methodist, baptized in a Methodist church, raised in a United Methodist church in Indiana, and worship in a United Methodist church in Washington, DC.  I was also born a gay man.  After this week's actions at General Conference, how can I possibly walk back into a church with a "United Methodist" sign over the door without betraying myself?  The United Methodist church was never one to turn people away, but its actions this week slammed the door on a large group of people who may not be perfect, but should be valued.  I no longer feel welcome in a United Methodist church, and I am very, very sad that you do not want me to worship with you any longer.

You weren't "born a gay man" anymore than Richard Nixon was born a crook. We are ALL born with sin natures, but we are asked to repent of sin, lay down our crosses daily and die to self to follow Christ. You are worried about "betraying yourself." I respectfully suggest that you worry more about betraying Biblical truths and quenching the Holy Spirit in your life.  The UMC is not turning you or any gay person away; everyone is welcome in church. Thankfully, at least for the next four years, the UMC's written statement does not conflict with Scripture. 

Troy, I want you to know how deeply sorry I am. I too was raised Methodist, and attend a Methodist church. I cried as I listened to the debate over human sexuality, and I continue to be disappointed today. I want you to know, that many Methodists in the United States are supporters of, and know that homosexuality, like heterosexuality is of and from God. I will keep you in my prayers, and would recommend you speak with your local pastor about what this General Conference means for you. However it works out, please know that God loves you, and created you just the way you are. 

Troy, I share your disappointment that an acknowledgement that we United Methodists are all not united on this issue was rejected by action of the GC.  I hope all who read your comment have the empathy to  grasp your feelings and do some serious reflection.  But the denial that we are notall of one mind  does not reflect  reality.  There are United Methodists that do not agree with the language of exclusion and continue to believe as you and are committed to keeping  the door to the church open to all.  I encourage you to stay united in conflict, in the spirit of the "protestants' at GC who pledged to remain and walk through the troubled waters ahead.  Regardless of the action of GC , for many of us you are always welcome and we recognize you as an essential part of the Body of Christ.
    Rev. David L. Middleton, retired...Indiana Conference

Dear Mr. Liggett,

I echo your sympathies. I mailed my letter of resignation of my membership in the United Methodist Church this morning. I also was born and raised Methodist and discovered I was a homosexual pretty early in life too. What really surprised me was when I discovered that God is okay with me being gay. Since that time I have discovered much from the Scriptures that supports this point of view of God and his character. I also have discovered that I can completely ignore the words of Paul who brought much confusion, hurt, false accusations, hypocrisy, homophobia and antiSemitism to the church. He also rejected the authority of the early church leaders, Peter and James, as well as his Pharisee teacher Gamaliel to cease and desist in his anti Semitic and anti Christian ways. I pray that the UMC will see the light, but until that time I will worship elsewhere. You may contact me at djjackson57@gmail.com if you wish. May God bless you. Love in Christ, Dorothy Jackson

How is God OK with you being gay???  Sorry God placed Adam and Eve on this earth to procreate, multiply - so how can two women or two men do this naturally?  They can't - why? - because it is not normal.  
So believe what you do, if it makes you happy but don't put the UM Church down because they believe sin is sin - no matter in what form.

I am sorry that you feel you cannot return to a United Methodist Churc.  The only restriction is the inability to have the church declare your lifestyle as compatible with Christian Teachings. Adulters and other sinners have the same restriction. That include my life and  how I live out my walk with Jesus Christ.  I would be in serious error to try and claim that any sin I might see in my life is acceptble to God, period!

Dear Troy,

I pray that you can overcome the hurt of this moment and walk back in as so many have done over the past 40 years or so since GC first turned a request for inclusion on its head and made it exclusionary.  Many have survived the struggle and suffered silently or less so while keeping on keeping on.  It is time for us all to pray more fervently that those who resist the idea of including active gay and Lesbian persons in the ranks of the clergy may be converted to a new way of thinking in the years ahead, and that the church and its leadership may discover creative ways to move past this current barricade put in the road to inclusive fellowship and ministry. 

Several of us left UMC and have found our placein the UCC Church. 

Many former Methodists have found great joy in the UCC. I am one. 

You were NOT born a gay man! Homosexuality is a CHOICE. Acting on impulses of any sort IS a choice. Please read Matthew 15:19-20, where Jesus said " 19 For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication*, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile." Fornication is ANY sexual relationship outside of a marriage of One Man and One Woman, including adultery, pre-marital sex, bestiality, and homosexuality. If you question that just read on a bit further, in Matthew 19: 4&5 where JESUS said "[Jesus] answered, “Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?"  JESUS DID condemn this sin, and calls on sinners to REPENT, and NOT sin again. If you want to remain IN SIN, then do not ask the Church to BLESS your sin.

 The only choice those who are born homosexual have to make in this life is whether or not they will bear false witness against themselves, live a lie, and demean God's loving hand in creating them in God's own image OR  whether they will live honestly and authentically despite the special burdens that uninformed, mean-spirited people such as yourself create for them.  No one can know the mind of God in confounding his church with with the challenge of homosexuality.  But if we stop for a second and consider Jesus's core message and praxis of erasing the distinctions that cast human beings out and separate them one from another, homosexuality begins to emerge as the ultimate test of the authenticity and integrity of our Christian witness.  If Tampa is any indication, I'd say we are failing.

It's been proven medically homosexuality is not a choice.  People are indeed born that way.  It's no different than me being left handed.  I didn't choose it, it's the way I was born.
The doors of our Methodist churches are Open, but not if you're gay.  Oh you can attend, you just can't get married there.

We left UMC and have found the UCC to be more to our liking.

Everyone keeps saying "large group" of people, but I seriously doubt that many of the UM churches have a "large group" of homosexuals that regularly attend their church.  I applaud the church for not bowing to the wishes of a few.  And why do you no longer feel welcome in the UM Church?  They are following the Word of God - love the sinner, hate the sin.  This does not only apply to homosexuals, but to everyone who is in sin.  The only difference is that homosexuals want people to accept (their sin) and that is what it is.
Maybe instead of wanting the church to change, you should look within and see if there is something in you that can be changed.

 I didn't read anywhere in the above statement that the UMC did not welcome you.  The above statement continues to affirm the scripture in that the practice of homosexuality is a sin, but that ALL people, even sinners (like every single person in the world) are sacred and have value.  I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but I would remind you that Jesus was a "stone of stumbling" for all of us.  Christianity says "He is right, even when we disagree with Him." 

Just a reminder: Elders were the only clergy to whom the language "shall be appointed" applied. Deacons and local pastors, also clergy, never had so-called guaranteed appointment. This legislation did not affect all clergy, contrary to the way it has been widely reported. In general presenters at General Conference tended to talk about "clergy" as if only elders are clergy.

Great point.  As a retrred Associate member coming up through the Local Pastor Route,  I along with many others didn't have the security of a  guaranteed appointment, but had to jump through the hoops of the district board every year until I was ordained.

Excellent catch, Victoria! Thanks.

Victoria, that is true, but the elimination of security of appointment has ramfications down the line.  LPs may be displaced by elders being appointed to less than full time. 

I wonder if we have not dealt the "death blow" to our "itinerating system" in the United Methodist Church with the ending of the "gauranteed appointment" of elders? It  took the Calvinists almost three hundred years to make it work.... minimally...do the United Methodists have that long with tghe coming of the age of the "Tsunami?"  Will clergy "candidate" ....or wait for the call from God ....and the Bishops' "possible" appointment? or will they find secular work and "substiute" in smaller UM Churches as deacon-elders ....if hired??  that is not to minimize the work and calling of the deacon or local pastor...only to to raise the question of whether the appointive system can work effectively if a "ready" pool of apponitees is lacking? I have seen many friends...Presbyterian, Congregational pastors.... pumping gas.

An embarrassing display from an embarrassing organization. Maybe if you would spend more time studying and proclaiming the word of God, you'd lose less time issuing spurious apologies on behalf of dead people for crimes for which you have accrued neither guilt nor benefit. The withering of the UMC has nothing to do with its unwillingness to genuflect at the altar of homosexuality. The reason the church is rapidly dying is because of ongoing apostasy.

Well said Ed.  The Central Conferences, particularly Africa, is defying the trend and growing because they emphasize Scriptural truths, not changing cultural worldviews.  What would happen to the Methodist Church if they returned to Wesleyan attributes in theology, evangelism, accountability and personal care for one's neighbor?  Isn't that what the African church is doing?

The UMC.org articles have consistently been one-sided (that is, left-leaning) when discussing human sexuality, while the majority of our Church sees it the other way.  No wonder there is a trust deficit.  Just consider this quote from the above article:  "the present policy of denying clergy the right to conduct services of union for persons of the same gender."  The church is not "upholding the Scriptural teaching" but "denying the rights of clergy."  I wish they would at least try to get people from both sides to write. 

In another version, the conference is "refusing to open the church to the gifts of gay and lesbian persons" (see "United Methodists in Tampa: looking for scapegoats, living in fear" at  http://www.huffingtonpost.c....  From the same article: "For gays and lesbian[s] at the end of the General Conference, the message is clear: You're welcome in the United Methodist Church so long as you set aside everything about you that is unique." 

I'm trying to overlook the hyperbole and deconstruct the "straw man" arguments to get to the substance of the issue(s).  It's difficult, but I'm trying.      

If we are not careful we will find our church struggling over such issues as poligamy and extra marital sex as I have herd supported from a church pulpit on mother's day no less. As the Church of Jesus Christ, thus called a Christian Church we need to be determined to love all  humans  and turn away from sin in any of it miriad of forms.
Our country is going downhill because morality is something few wish to talk about and our leader in government are often caught in immoral activities, including past Presidents and others in the public view.  We have sent our young people bad examples now for many generationsand I am convinced that it will take many more generations to turn things around an get back to being true to our calling as God's children.

How many millions did this thing cost?

Ordained elders are truly the only clergy who have the years of education to make them knowledgeable.
The elders are not guaranteed an appointment and certainly not a full time appointment
DS's are guaranteed a 6 year term.
So if the DS does not like the clergy - or has a problem with race, sex or disability - too bad --- they are gone.
A congregation is not guaranteed an ordained elder, we might get a LLP or just a lay person.
A congregation may not seek out a pastor to fit their needs - they get who they get.
Anything make sense here?
Oh, yea --- and the pension is not guaranteed to part time. So instead of the bishop (who is for life i might remind you) working with the clergy to help them in their process or help them work with the congregation - they are just tossed aside with their 7 + years of education tossed down the drain.
"And they will know we are Christians by our love"???????

Anybody know what happened with the recommendations from the Church Systems Study? I couldn't locate it through CALMS. Did it make it through Financial Administration, or was it among those things lost in the chaos of the final days. Thanks!

My father was a Methodist Lay minister in Texas in the early 1970's. The Church nation-wide was highly political and trying to be "relevant" to the young and idealistic peace, love and drugs crowd. Our neighbor in Austin, another Methodist, hosted SDS meetings. As a reminder, SDS is/was the Student Democratic Society (American Communist). My mother had her fill when she started hearing more and more members compromise their orthodox Christian values so that people could claim a Christian faith without ever "feeling" a need for transformation. She said, "If I hear one more person say, 'I know the Bible says so and so, but I believe...,' I'm going to lose my mind." She was a pretty straight-forward, WWII vet having served in the WACs. Her response became, "I love you and so does God, but he really doesn't care what you believe. He makes the rules. The only thing you get to decide is whether you're going to follow them or not." She also predicted that the progressives would have to come up with a better response than, "I know the bible says..." so in time these people would turn to discrediting traditional Christians as backwards, biblical literalists. Many seminaries teach that prophets are people who can connect the dots, look at the trends and see what the future will look like if we continue on the same path. My father was highly educated. My mother was not, yet she was the family prophet. I'm disappointed that the General Conference was unable to do anything about the much needed restructuring and renew our commitment to the Great Commission particularly in light of the troubled times we live in. I fear we will, for the next four years at least, continue to be a big political action committee first and a Church for Jesus Christ, second. We will never agree on everything but my prayer is we can at least agree that the Bible isn't just a Love Story, it is also a Rule Book. Much as some of us may dislike it, it may be time to re-visit the Rule Book before we continue to play the game.

I agree. That's why I'm in favor of bringing back slavery. It's approved in the Bible. And I don't want to hear "I know the Bible says so and so, but I believe..."  Right, Robert?

The Bible does not teach slavery.  The fact that there are slaves is acknowledged.  It teaches slaves can be believers and has teachings addressed to slaves which is very different from teaching slavery. Please refer to one of many good commentaries to get a fuller understanding.  There are at this moment slaves in the USA and other places.  Please do not misrepresent the teaching of the Bible to say this should be made legal. These people who are illegally enslaved need the church to correctly represent the Bible, stand firm against slavery, and be proactive in finding and freeing them.

Thank you Jesus. There are times when change is not good or helpful. Paul Rairden