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Snead Hearn • 11 years ago

I strongly support a MAS curriculum. However, this article shows a very dogmatic singular interpretation. Would the author approve of the European astrological calendar being taught as fact? I see a desire to impart a detailed native tradition, even if some of it has to be invented, like Kwanza. My belief in what the author writes dissolves when I read "there is no word in Nahuatl to express an idea of a sun god". Really? What of Tonatiuh, sometimes called Cuauhtlehuanitl and Cuauhtemoc, and sometimes incarnated as Huitzilipochtli?

dubinsky • 11 years ago

not only can't teachers in public schools decide to spend class time on various unimportant crap that interests them, but they also can't spend class time advocating for the phlogiston theory or the virtues of slavery or even the many great benefits of human sacrifice , so dear to the hearts of the Aztecs.

stop publishing the asshole rants of Rodriguez.

Douglas • 11 years ago

"the many great benefits of human, sacrifice, so dear to the hearts of the Aztecs." Why on earth would you object to human sacrifice? You believe in it. Only two days ago you were excusing the killing (sacrificing) of innocent people, including children, by drone strikes because it was necessary to accomplish the military objectives of the US. The Aztecs had one form of human sacrifice. The US military, and you, has another form. I doubt that human sacrifice was "dear to the hearts of the Aztecs." They thought it was "neccessary." Nor do I think human sacrifice is "dear to your heart." You explained that you thought it was "necessary." It is clear, however, that both you and the Aztecs reluctantly accept human sacrifice. How can you possibly condemn the Aztecs for accepting what you accept. If human sacrifice was wrong in their day it is still wrong in your day. You have to be one of the world's most obtuse people, dubinsky.

Douglas • 11 years ago

What should they spend all their time teaching? That the only culture worth studying is white European culture? That the American form of government and culture is exceptional, infinitely superior to all others? That nothing else is worth studying?

The majority of the students in the Tucson public schools are descended from indigenous Mexican tribes including the Aztecs. How lucky they are to have you, an old bigotted white man, to tell them what is important what is not important for them to know. Can you even comprehend how foolish and hateful your comment makes you look?

I can't imagine any crap more unimportant than your continual over the top, dogmatic narrow minded and chauvinistic comments. It is unfortunate that Truthout doesn't stop publishing your asshole rants. As far as human sacrifice is concerned, I'd be more than happy to sacrifice you! However, I imagine you are too vile and depraved to serve as a suitable vessel for sacrifice.

dubinsky • 11 years ago

they're supposed to study those things required to graduate with a state diploma while in public schools.

should they wish to learn other things, and they certainly should, they can do so in other settings....afterschool programs, private school, or in college.

this asswipe doesn't mean to do other than substitute his judgment.... and his ideas of what's proper....for that of the people charged with designing the curriculum.

he's more than welcome to his program.....just as the Catholic Church is welcome to theirs......as long as he or they don't demand that the public's money is used to finance it.

THAT'S the problem with this piglet.... he demands that the public finance his crap.

Douglas • 11 years ago

What you are ignoring, you silly ass, is that the Mexican Studies program was originally approved and adopted by the Tucson School District as part of the things required in the Tucson public schools. Latinos make up 30 percent (are rapidly growing) of the population of Arizona. Why shouldn't courses related to Latino history and culture be required for high school graduation in a state with a rapidly growing Latino population. The Mexican Studies program would still be in effect in Tucson high schools except for the pressure exerted to remove it by narrow, chauvinistic anti-Latino bigots such as yourself. The problem with you, dubinsky, is that you so overvalue your own prejudices and likes and dislikes that you have no qualms at all about arrtogantly imposing them upon others. In some New York state high schools there are holocaust studies programs. Would you make a similar argument that they should be removed from the curriculum? Are the folks who want holocaust studies in the public schools "piglets" for wanting the public to fund the courses? Who the hell are you to dictate to others what should and should not be required for study in the public high schools?

dubinsky • 11 years ago

what I'm NOT ignoring was that the program was tried...and discarded.....

why shouldn't the teachings of the Catholic faith be required in states with a high percentage of Catholics?

why not teach the joys of polygamy in Utah?

and while you're waxing gaseous I suggest that you learn about Rodriguez......before you call other folks chauvinistic bigots, learn about someone who actually is that.

Douglas • 11 years ago

Comparing Latino culture and history to teaching about the Catholic faith is a bad analogy. Culture and history are not religion. If European history and culture are to be taught in the schools, why not Latino culture and history?

As far as Mormon polygamy is concerned, I am descended on one side of my family from 19th century polygamous Mormon ancestors. I can assure you from the stories I heard long ago from older relatives that polygamy was not a "joy," especially to the wives. It was closer to hell on earth. But why not teach about LDS polygamy in the schools, especially in Utah. It just might make some of the current Utah residents, especially the Mormon ones, less sanctimonius and smug.

I also notice that you avoided answering my question about holocaust studies. Either you wish to have them incuded in the NYS high school curriculum and you wish to have the taxpayers continue to pay for having them taught, or you you have your own reasons for not wanting to answer my question, probably because you don't wish to expose your inconsistency. Which is it, dubinsky?

Douglas • 11 years ago

I wish to add to my above comment that, although I did not go to school in Utah, I did attend 12 years of public schooling in neighboring Idaho. In high school I was required to study both Idaho history and US history. Never once, in either of these courses, was the subject of Mormon polygamy ever mentioned, despite the fact that it did play a major role in the early history of Idaho, Utah and other neighboring western states. Yes, dubinsky, I do wish it had been taught as part of the history curriculum. It's not being taught was a serious deficiency in my education. However, since Mormons make up 25% of the population of Idaho, its exclusion can only be attributed to the political influence of the LDS Church. Just, I might add, as the prohibition against teaching Mexican Studies in Tucson (another city where I once lived) is attributable to the presence and political influence of a vocal and well-organized group of anti-Latino bigots.

dubinsky • 11 years ago

good comment, Doug.

let me be clear in noting that teaching stuff IN ADDITION to sll the regular stuff is to be vigorously encouraged and done.

i went to a high school in NYC where all of us completed all requirements for a diploma before the end of junior year and the entire senior terms were for physics, calculus honors English and a bunch or electives.

I'm a glutton for ed but think that we have to save dessert for after the main meal.

dubinsky • 11 years ago

I ignored your holocaust studies inclusion because you didn't provide any substantiation......

I've never heard that they were required learning in any NYS public schools and I'm from New York.

please substantiate. I'll readily comment.

Douglas • 11 years ago

In the United States five states have enacted legislation requiring the teaching of the holocaust in the public schools. These five state are California, Florida, Illinois, New Jersey and New York. Four of these states--Florida, New Jersey, California and New York--have created extensive guidelines and curriculum for teaching the holocaust. Most of the other 50 states, while not having a legislative mandate to teach the holocaust, also have state policies that require instruction in the holocaust. See: www.holocausttaskforce.org>...>Holocaust Education Reports

And, BTW, I also live in New York state and have for the last 42 years. It's hard to believe that you live in New York state and did not know this. It is common knowledge. I will look forward to hearing from you whether or not you approve. I will tell you in advance that I do agree with having holocaust studies taught in the schools and also with having the public pay for theteaching.

dubinsky • 11 years ago

here's the actual link, Doug.....


thx for the general direction.

after reading through it, ti's seems that the five states don't mandate any course in the holocaust but merely require that it be mentioned during the study of Nazi Germany/WWII....as the textbooks cited are said to contain a about five pages, in toto, concerning the topic of Germany and the War.....

that's an entirely different level of activity than Rodriguez is gassing about.

didn't you note that when you read the report?

I've got no problem with a history class devoting a half-hour to the holocaust or to the Aztecs.......I DO have a problem with replacing the customary class with Holocaust studies... or Aztec studies.....

(I went to public school in NYC, Doug, and did my wife and our kid.....none of us ever received extensive instruction in the holocaust.

If you did, please name the school and year)

Douglas • 11 years ago

The legislatures of the five states mandated systematic and thorough instruction in the holocaust in the 1980s and 1990s. I imagine you and your wife were long out of school by that time. And, in case you are not aware of it, much of the current curriculum is substantially different than it was in the 1950s and 1960s.

My next door neighbor, a high school history teacher in a school in a Rochester suburb, would be surprised to learn that all he has to do to meet state requirements is to mention the holocaust a few times during the couse of his regular instruction or maybe spend a half hour discussing it. He spends an entire week teaching the holocaust and wishes he had more time.

And, no, when I was in high school in the mid-1950s, the holocaust was not formally taught. It was informally discussed, however, by my sophomore world history teacher (a WWII vet who fought in Europe and had helped to liberate one of the concentration camps). He interrupted his regular syllabus for a few days to discuss the holocaust instead. You, I suppose, would have chastised him for doing so.

dubinsky • 11 years ago

I was in high school in the late 1960's and the kid graduated high school in the late 1990's.......in the Bronx......and there was no "couple of days" on the holocaust for either of us.....

so yeah, I am unaware...... if there's anybody out there who did spend days on a mandated holocaust study course, i would be interested to here from you.

and , again, as long as the discussion was in addition to all the regular stuff and not instead of it, i'm all for it. extra learning is fine and dandy.

but I don't want kids coming away from class not having been taught about all the causes and effects of WWII because all the time was spent on Nazi anti-Semitic genocide.